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Panetta: We're Still At War; Insane Clown Posse To Sue FBI; Gunfire Erupts At South African Mine; Coping With Hearing Loss

Aired August 16, 2012 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: But I do want to begin with another heartbreaking story. This is just a horrifying incident against the people who protect us. We have now learned the names of two deputies ambushed, shot and killed today in Louisiana, 34-year-old Brandon Nielsen and 28-year-old Jeremy Triche were killed. Two other deputies were wounded.

Louisiana authorities say the first shoot-out happened in a remote parking lot near a refinery in a town called LaPlace, Louisiana. A sheriff says officers were ambushed, then in a second shoot-out when they went to a trailer park to question the suspect, the sheriff struggled to contain his emotions. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF MIKE TREGRE, ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST PARISH: As we were interviewing the two persons, the two suspects, another person exited that trailer with an assault weapon and ambushed -- excuse me -- ambushed my two officers. The investigation is ongoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Five suspects are in custody. Two of them are hospitalized with bullet wounds themselves. Still, it's unclear why, what prompted these attacks. Authorities are still trying to figure out whether the same weapon was used in both shoot-outs here. The wounded officers are still in surgery.

And we have with us on the phone Mike Hoss. He's a reporter from affiliate WWL. He joins me live. And just do me a favor, Mike, and just tell me what you know right now.

MIKE HOSS, WWL-TV CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly, it's very, very difficult to get the very latest situation from the officers (inaudible) injury standpoints. And what we have kind of heard through sources is that one was in surgery and that one might not even need surgery. That is kind of what we've heard through sources.

That is not officially from either St. John the Baptist Parish or the state police. So we're still waiting on that.

The next update for us will come at 4 o'clock Eastern, 3 o'clock Central, because there are a number of unanswered questions about what -- we know kind of what went down, but what we're really trying to find out is kind of how it all went down. Two officers dead and, again, two officers fighting for their lives.

Can you just do me a favor, Mike, since I want to ask you, I know, a lot of the questions, as you say, are really unanswered. Tell me a little bit more about where these shoot-outs happened, about this location, this refinery, and what these officers were doing at the time.

HOSS: The refinery is west of New Orleans, I would say probably 15-16 miles west of New Orleans and it's a refinery in one parish, St. Charles Parish, but it's a big parking lot in another parish, about a couple of miles down the road, in St. John the Baptist Parish. And so people at the refinery would park there, get on buses and would be bused down to the refinery.

So that's where it all started. Somewhere prior to 5 o'clock this morning, typically there are off-duty St. John Parish deputies there to help with patrols because, I mean, it's a lot of cars in, a lot of cars out. It's shift work to direct traffic.

This is where we don't know what happened. All we know is that the sheriff, Mike Tregre, said one of his officers, Michael Scott Boyington, had made some type of stop, and during that stop was fired upon, multiple times. He is believed to be OK, according to the sheriff. So -- but he's alive enough to give what we believe is some description of the vehicle.

That vehicle was then seen later by an eyewitness who calls in, saying, hey, I've got this car going 80 miles an hour down the road. That leads deputies to a trailer park, basically on the Mississippi River, a levee, again, about two miles, max, from where the initial shooting took place.

They go up to the door, to a trailer, where they believe the suspects are. In fact, they've got one suspect with them. They knock on the door, the guy comes to the door, there's a dog there. They can see inside the trailer. And inside the trailer is a man, underneath, fully clothed, but underneath a blanket.

So as they call him to the front door, another person exits the rear of the trailer with a semiautomatic assault rifle, opens fire and, to the best of our knowledge from the sheriff, kills two of his officers and wounds a third.

BALDWIN: Just awful.

HOSS: That's what gives us the two officers wounded, two officers slain.

BALDWIN: Awful about these officers, Mike Hoss. We appreciate it. As you mentioned, there's going to be a news conference a little later. We will be watching that right along with you all at WWL. Thank you for hopping on the phone with me. I appreciate it. Another huge story we're watching today, Arizona. Arizona's governor giving a harsh reality check to thousands of young, undocumented immigrants in her state. President Obama's new rules allow them and others to -- really, across the nation, to temporarily avoid deportation, take those fears away, at least for two years, but it doesn't give them legal status.

So Governor Jan Brewer, she stressed in this executive order that her state will not give them any public benefits. She said she is following state law, Proposition 200, which Arizonans passed back in 2004.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JAN BREWER, (R) ARIZONA: Again, I will repeat, it's no different than what already is being enacted here in the state of Arizona, no driver's licenses and no public benefits.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The reaction was swift. The same day Brewer issued that order, immigrants who came here illegally as kids were lining up to protest, straight to the state capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Now, the program that keeps them from getting deported, we've been reporting on this, this is called the Consideration of Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. And for young immigrants who follow the law, they meet other criteria, it does provide a work authorization card. Governor Brewer says Arizona will grant the card, which obviously was not enough for protesters.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What Jan Brewer did today, it's bullying. She's bullying the voiceless. She's bullying children that they can't defend themselves. And she's bullying immigrant youth that don't have a voice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I want to bring in our senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin. He's on the phone with me. And Jeff, first things first. Can Governor Brewer even legally do this?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Brooke, I wish I could give you a categorical answer to that, but this is an extremely complicated area of the law. As you know, there was a Supreme Court case on this very subject of Arizona's right to restrict immigration, and the Supreme Court split in many different directions, including over which policies were permissible and which weren't.

So I think this case is destined to wind up in court. Federal law always trumps state law on matters relating to immigration, but that is not an easy term to define, what is specifically related to immigration. Arizona has some powers, too, and this, too, will probably have to be sorted out by the courts. BALDWIN: Yes, we talked about it when it came down from the Supreme Court and there was one major provision that very much so still stood. But I want to take you back to this executive order, because, as you mentioned, it's complicated.

You're the legal eagle here. So help me understand this. If we're talking that -- if we're talking about how Arizonans can, in fact, get a work authorization card, then I want you to just explain to me here, then, Jeff, what services these young folks, who do get the green light from this deferral program, what they will not be getting in Arizona, compared to, say, Massachusetts.

TOOBIN: Well, for example, one area of a great deal of controversy is, are they eligible for in-state tuition at state colleges and universities? One local college at first said, yes, they will be eligible. Then the same day said no. That is obviously a point of contention. I don't think the matter is settled for good.

Driver's licenses is another area of contention. The governor seems to say, no; the federal government may say yes. Those are the (inaudible) -- if there's any message from the Supreme Court decision, it's that each of these policies, driver's licenses, in- state tuition -- will have to be evaluated separately and determined whether state or federal law trumps.

BALDWIN: So, then, with regard to the in-state tuition, with regard to the licenses, does it sound like Arizona itself is a tad confused? And if so, how does this get cleared up?

TOOBIN: Well, I don't think Arizona or the governor is confused at all. They are trying to deny these newly semi-legal citizens, these individuals, these young people who were born outside the United States, brought here illegally but raised in the United States, law-abiding people. The government of Arizona is not at all confused in wanting to deny them all benefits --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: But, Jeff, when you bring up -- but, Jeff, when you bring up --

TOOBIN: -- President Obama's action, can Arizona do that? And I'm afraid the answer to that question is we're going to have to wait for the courts to sort it out.

Yes, I guess just, when you bring up, for example, I know Maricopa County community colleges, they thought, OK, yes, once this order came down, they could give these undocumented immigrants, which typically get the more expensive out-of-state tuition, they could get in-state. Now it sounds like they're saying hang on a second, we don't really know what the deal is because of this executive order.

Bottom line, yes or no, this is going to be a lawsuit?

TOOBIN: There's -- you finally asked an easy question, Brooke. Absolutely.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. Jeff Toobin, I try not to be too tough on you most of the time. We appreciate you calling in. Thank you very much. We're going to get to the bottom of what exactly is happening in Arizona and elsewhere, because there's a lot more happening on this Thursday.

Roll it.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

BALDWIN: Seven more American troops won't be coming home after a crash today in Afghanistan. This as America's defense chief says, don't forget, there is still a war going on. I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Heartbreaking images of the reality inside Syria.

Plus, top secret no more. The former Navy SEALs say the world knows more about the Osama bin Laden raid than it should. And now they are slamming President Obama.

And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're the most hated band, because people hate and people fear what they don't understand.

BALDWIN (voice-over): -- confessions from the Insane Clown Posse, the guys suing the FBI for blasting their fans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Shocking though it is, it is becoming abundantly clear that the Assad regime in Syria is launching attacks against civilians. I'm going to give you two examples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN (voice-over): Number one. Take a look at this. This is a residential block. This is north of Aleppo, leveled by Bashar al-Assad's air force. This attack happened yesterday. We do not yet have an accurate figure as to how many people were killed there.

Example two: Aleppo. Government shelling killed eight people, wounded 50 today, as they stood outside a bakery. They're trying to get bread. At least what's we're told by the rebel group known as the Free Syrian Army.

More and more, it is the noncombatants dying, not the guys with the guns. Ben Wedeman is in Aleppo, and this astonishing report begins inside of a hospital, repeatedly hit by government air strikes. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help me!

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twelve-year-old Mohammad (ph) screams out in fear and pain. Shrapnel ripped through his right leg in an air raid on the Dada Schifa (ph) Hospital in Aleppo's Saha (ph) district. Three passers-by, including Mohammad (ph), were wounded in the attack.

The task of treating the wounded here, harder by the day, Nurse Abuis Maile (ph) tells me. "Half of our equipment no longer works," he says.

For almost an hour, Syrian government jets bombed and strafed the area, twice striking the clearly marked hospital. Out of view, rebels fired back fruitlessly at the plane.

In an entranceway across the street from the hospital, the blood is still wet where Mohammad (ph), wounded, took cover, nerves still on edge at the possibility the plane will strike yet again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he went in the next entrance.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Mohammad's (ph) brother, Abdul (ph), fled the emergency ward in panic after the second attack on the hospital and is afraid to go back in.

The shelling and air raids have no rhyme or reason. The rounds smash into crowded neighborhoods, far from the front lines. Mohammad al-Ahal (ph) was in a back room when his apartment was hit. He had sent his family away just a few days before. "Thank God they weren't here," he says, "but what am I going to do? Where am I going to live?"

His neighbors clear away the rubble with exhausted resignation.

WEDEMAN: The random nature of the shelling and the air raids on the rebel-controlled parts of Aleppo means that any building, anywhere in this part of the city could be hit at any time. In fact, this building was hit just 20 minutes ago.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): For many of the residents of Aleppo, it's simply time to leave. Some go by foot, most by car or pickup, taking the bare minimum.

"The shelling," answers Abu Ahmet, when I ask why he and his family are leaving. "We don't know where it's coming from."

Their destination is what they hope is a safer part of town. But here, no place is truly safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Wow. Just seeing children in your reporting, Ben Wedeman, stunning, stunning images and stories out of northern Syria.

I want to ask you more about your report here, but it will have to speak for itself for now, because we have to get to this.

We're getting word that the United Nations' mission to Syria will not be extended. It expires this weekend.

So, Ben, does this mean that the United Nations is throwing in the towel? And if that's the case, does that create some kind of vacuum? And what does that mean?

WEDEMAN: Well, it really doesn't make any difference for most people here. The United Nations' mission, which has been running since the beginning of the year, has had very little impact on the fighting.

If anything, if you look at the daily death toll, and today, according to opposition groups, as many as 179 people were killed in Syria today. The death toll has been rising steadily. And in the last few months, dramatically, the United Nations and the Arab League, it's a joint mission between the two, has had very little, if any impact at all, on the fighting.

So the fact that they're closing up shop, they're just going to leave a small office in Damascus, really won't make any difference at all. Both sides seem set on their current course and whether -- the United Nations, frankly, was meaningless in the whole affair. Brooke?

BALDWIN: Well, let me show just our viewers something else that's alarming. And I know we've talked about the nightmare prospect, potentially, of the bloodshed in Syria spilling.

So let me just show our viewers, Lebanon, right here, next-door neighbor. We're talking specifically about the violence spilling over, because we have this large-scale kidnapping there linked to the conflict in Syria.

This is -- this means, you know, several Persian Gulf states, including Saudi Arabia. They're telling their people in Lebanon to get out. How serious a threat, Ben, is this to Lebanon, specifically?

WEDEMAN: It's a very serious threat. The possibility that the conflict spills into Lebanon is very high.

Let's not forget, in Lebanon, there are a variety of different groups, some pro-regime, Syrian regime, some anti. There's already been bloodshed in parts of Lebanon, between these two groups.

Lebanon, of course, went through a bloody civil war, from 1975 to 1990, and many of the causes for that war are still there. So it's very much a powder keg, right next door to this, Syria, a country already on fire.

BALDWIN: Ben Wedeman for us live in Syria. Ben, we appreciate it. Thank you.

Meantime, officials warning some folks in one Louisiana town, your drinking water might be tasting salty. The severe drought we've been reporting on, it's caused the Mississippi River to drop to shockingly low levels. So low, in fact, that saltwater from the Gulf is creeping up the river. We'll explain that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Now to a pretty surprising consequence of the ongoing severe drought in the central part of our country. In Plaquemines Parish, Louisiana, which is right there, you see it? On the mouth of the mighty Mississippi River, officials are warning folks that their drinking water might be tasting a tad salty.

Chad Myers, used to going to this neck of the woods and things being a little spicy. But salty? Why?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, because you have to think about it. Saltwater is heavier than fresh water. It's why you float better in the ocean than in the pool.

So this saltwater, coming from the Gulf of Mexico, coming from the salty area down here, is always on the bottom of the Mississippi river. And the fresh water flows over the top of it. Saltwater going this way, fresh water coming this way, typically it mixes enough --there's enough water coming down the Mississippi that it mixes that saltwater and shoves it back into the Gulf of Mexico.

But when there's not water coming down the Mississippi, or at least not very much, that saltwater ends up going up the river rather than the fresh water going down the river. So they're going to have to build, literally, an earthen dam almost, under the water before the salt -- to stop the saltwater from coming up the Mississippi. And here's kind of what it looks like.

Here's what the levee is going to look like. This saltwater here is coming up the Mississippi River. They are going to make this berm -- called a sill, basically; it's just a levee -- underwater. It won't go to the top, because you still have to get ships in and out of here.

But that saltwater then won't go any farther up the river. It will stop right here, the fresh water will come back in here, mix that water, and then send it down into the Gulf of Mexico.

This has happened before. They did this in '88 and they did it in '99. Both of those years, very droughty, if you want, very, very low water levels in Mississippi. And it worked.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Is it OK to drink?

MYERS: -- again. Sorry, again?

BALDWIN: OK to drink?

MYERS: Is it OK to drink? That saltwater?

BALDWIN: Yes.

MYERS: Well, not really. Not if you're on a low- sodium diet, either. You know, you don't want to -- you never want to drink the ocean water in the first place, even if you're stranded on a boat and you don't have any water, don't drink the ocean water, you'll dehydrate from it.

But because this water is creeping up the Mississippi, it's mixing with the intake for Plaquemines Parish, and so now some of this saltwater is getting into the fresh water. And it's very difficult to get -- you ever tried to get salt out of soup? Doesn't work very well. And you can't take salt out really very well unless you heat it up and distill it.

Boy, I'll tell you what, it's -- for a while, it's going to be a problem. They were going to build this; it's going to take six weeks to build this hump.

BALDWIN: Yes, I know, I just asked if, you know, some folks may not have a choice, so they may have to.

(CROSSTALK)

MYERS: They are filling barges with fresh water and taking them downriver and parking them there in Plaquemines Parish to have that fresh water.

BALDWIN: Excellent. Chad, thank you.

MYERS: You bet.

BALDWIN: Critics say the presidential candidates appear to have put the war in Afghanistan on the back burner. But my next guest says a helicopter crash today should be a stark reminder of the continued dangers our troops are facing. We're going to focus on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Seven U.S. service members were killed today when their helicopter crashed. You see the map here. This happened in the Kandahar Province. This is southern Afghanistan. The crash also killed three Afghan soldiers and an Afghan civilian interpreter.

The Kandahar governor's office says the Black Hawk UH- 60 helicopter, like this one, was on patrol in a northern district when it went down. The cause of the crash is still under investigation.

And today's deadly crash, it comes two days after Defense Secretary Leon Panetta basically pointed out to the American people, hang on a second, we're still at war. At a Tuesday briefing, Panetta ticked off this list of events. He mentioned the Olympics, the presidential campaign, the drought, the mass shootings in Colorado and Wisconsin, all occupying the American public, and then he delivered a stark reminder. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEON PANETTA, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: But I thought it was important to remind the American people that there is a war going on in Afghanistan and that young men and women are dying in order to try to protect this country.

One of my toughest jobs is to write condolence letters to the families of our fallen heroes, and frankly I seem to be writing more lately. I just want the American people to take the time and reflect on these sacrifices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Tom Tarantino, Deputy Policy Director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, IAVA, also served in combat in Iraq, Tom, welcome back here.

You look at the numbers. It's 84,000 U.S. service members, still in Afghanistan, yet we've been covering the trail on both sides, the campaign trail. Not a lot said here when it comes to Afghanistan. Why do we need reminding? Why the silence?

TOM TARANTINO, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: Well, first of all, you know, our hearts go out to the young men, the men and women who died today. You know, we just -- we just had this stark reminder that there are men and women in harm's way.

And it's a shame that we shouldn't have to have a tragedy like the helicopter crash today or the secretary of defense publicly reminding us that we are a nation at war.

And that's largely because we are a very small population. Iraq and Afghanistan veterans are less than 1 percent of the American population. And we have borne the brunt of the war in the last ten years.

And I think it's important that not just on the campaign trail, but also in our homes that we understand that men and women are fighting for us. They're fighting for us overseas and they're continuing to the fight when they come home.

And we have to make sure that as a country, we don't ignore these issues. And we have to make sure that they know that we have their backs while they're overseas and after they come home.

BALDWIN: Tom, let me show our viewers exactly how Americans feel. To be clear, this is the poll, the last one we took this was back in March. Question posed, do you oppose or support the war in Afghanistan? You see the numbers. A huge 72 percent, Tom, opposing it. I was also reading Pew Research Center said, quoting them, "the best foreign policy rates in the middle tier of issues.

How do you convince, Tom, folks in this country, out of work, having a tough time feeding their family, that the war in Afghanistan should be top of mind?

TARANTINO: One of the things we have seen is that support for the war or support against the war does not mean support for or against the troops. What we have found is that the American people overwhelmingly want to support the troops.

The problem is that so few have ever spent time inside a military uniform. So they don't understand the community. What we have found through our work at IAVA with our civilian supporters is that they are looking, they are hungry for ways to figure out how to get involved.

How to support men and women who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and how to make sure that the VA and the government and everyone is accountable for taking care of these men and women when they come home.

Men and women come home from war today to record-high unemployment rates, to a GI bill that is not meeting all of its needs, to record-high disability backlog rates.

We have to make sure that even when we bring troops home from Afghanistan, that we still have taking care of these men and women as they transition from being a warrior back to being a civilian.

BALDWIN: Part of that, though, Tom, is Americans hearing it. They need to be hearing it, according to you, you know, on the campaign trail, they're not really hearing a lot about this. From Obama, Biden, Romney, Ryan. Have you all, as a group, IAVA, reached out to these campaigns? What would you demand that they say?

TARANTINO: Well, you know, it's difficult. We are a non- partisan organization. So we reach out to everybody whether they're running for office, not running for office. If you're in the public eye, you need to understand that issues that affect military men and women, that affect veterans, affect all of our lives.

We might be a very small population, but the issues that affect us come to your hometown. If you have veterans that don't have access to adequate health care, that's a problem.

If you have veterans that are trying to use their GI bill, but they find out that the school they're going to is actually siphoning their benefits and not giving them an employable degree, that's a huge problem.

I mean, ultimately this comes back to paying back that moral responsibility we have to the men and women who signed up to serve our country, and making sure we do it responsibly and that we are all aware and have a stake in the fact that we have 84,000 Americans still currently fighting for our country.

BALDWIN: And not only that, there will still be 68,000 service members in Afghanistan after the U.S. drawdown next month. We need to keep that in mind.

I want you to take the time right now, Tom, tell Americans what needs to be done to make sure these brave men and women are not forgotten.

TARANTINO: First of all, we need to give veterans jobs. They've got to come home to an unemployment community that understands their services valued and they immediate to make sure their services are protected.

If you want to learn more about it, you can go to iava.org, join the movement, join the community, and we can give you all the information you need to be active and support our men and women.

BALDWIN: Tom Tarantino with the IAVA. Tom, thank you.

TARANTINO: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: They consider themselves one of the most hated bands in the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jugalos are a bunch of hooligans and like second class citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN sits down with the group that wants to sue the FBI for labelling their fans gang members. And what they reveal is pretty candid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The "Insane Clown" posse. Do you know these guys? The clown makeup, the tattoos, the expletive-laced lyrics, well, they know they're a rock band that a lot of you love to hate, but for the life of them, they don't understand why.

And they don't understand why the FBI labeled them and their loyal fans known as "Jugalos," a quote, "hybrid gang." They in fact plan on suing the FBI now for saying such a thing. They just don't get why they're so misunderstood. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People see the paint, and they're just like, what the -- is this some kind of gimmick? A lot of people that aren't "Jugalos" listen to our music and all they hear is -- all that stuff. And that scares them away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. So, why are these "Jugalos" on the FBI's national gang threat assessment list? Who are these folks? We'll let them tell you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me tell you something about "Jugalos." They're human beings, man. They're not Neanderthals. You don't have to tell them that. They know that. You know, they know they're not going to go out and murder somebody because of our music. We're -- human beings, man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is what band members Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope want you to know. No hatred here. They say the music has only been to uplift people who they call their family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got a subtle message underneath, which are very good morals and a message. You know what I'm saying? And it's, it's wonderful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I'm sorry, it's hard to keep a straight face when I'm talking about this. Jarrett Bellini with cnn.com, hello. You're the one who did this, what we call the red chair interviews. We find pretty fascinating people, right, and throw a bunch of questions at them. Let me first just begin with why?

JARRETT BELLINI, CNN.COM: I was sitting down on my couch one day and I went to the wormhole of the internet and came across one of their interviews, one of their videos, and I was like, you know what, I'm going to go talk to these guys. So me and a writer for dot-com, we went up to Detroit and sat down with them.

BALDWIN: So I watched this video, and the one snippet that really jumped out at me, when they're talking about how they've never done drugs. These guys have kids and they're going to teach sound values to their little ones. Let me just roll this part.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me tell you why you need to wear a condom. Let me tell you why, you know, you don't need to pick on that kid, you know, at school. Let me tell you why you called somebody a racial slur, I will stick my foot all the way to my hip into your -- you know what I'm saying?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK, so they're teaching nonviolence through that. What was your impression? Did you -- just, you tell me.

BELLINI: I didn't know what to expect. I had only heard of these guys and seen some of the clips on, you know, YouTube. But I've got to say, they were really nice guys. They were very earnest --

BALDWIN: Come on!

BELLINI: No, they were. They sat down with us. They gave us a lot of their time. They were super friendly. I'm not saying they were necessarily two guys I would hang out with in my normal everyday life, but they were friendly. I didn't feel threatened by them.

BALDWIN: So you were surprised?

BELLINI: You know, I guess I was, a little surprised, but not -- not really. Because what do you expect them to do? You know, I'm supposed to walk in the room and they're going to attack me? You know, it's not like that.

BALDWIN: Well, since you bring that up, Jarrett Bellini, let's talk violence. In the FBI's 2011 national gang threat assessment, they say open source reporting suggests that a small number of these "Jugalos" are forming more organized subsets, engaging in more gang- like criminal activities such as felony, assaults, thefts, robberies, and drug sales.

So they may appear warm and fuzzy in front of the camera, but at least their followers are not so much.

BELLINI: Yes, you can question their followers a lot. There's a lot said about the "Jugalos," and there are some documented crimes where you can say that "Jugalos" committed the crime.

But I don't know, I have a hard time painting something with too broad of a brush. I'm kind of a deadhead, and go to a lot of festivals that a lot of people would call hippie festival.

And if you took a snapshot of those individuals that I'm hanging out with at those festivals, I think you would paint a picture that's very different than what people would see if they met me.

BALDWIN: Can I ask quickly, did they come to the interview with the makeup on?

BELLINI: They did. They totally came to the interview with makeup on. I really wanted to see them put it on, but didn't get that opportunity.

BALDWIN: They didn't lift the veil for you. Where can we see this, cnn.com?

BELLINI: It's on cnn.com. There's a written piece and the video that we put together and you can kind of decide for yourself. You can look at the "Jugalos" and make your own decision there.

BALDWIN: OK, make your own decision, tweet @jarrettbellini and let him know what you think. Jarrett, thank you. It's interesting. I'll give you that.

There is a story out of South Africa that is developing as I speak. Minors go on strike and suddenly gunfire erupts. The shocking scene all caught on video. We're going to take you there live, next.

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BALDWIN: Just into us here, the strike by platinum miners. This is in South Africa, turns into this total bloodbath. According to CNN affiliate, ETV, police were trying to break up a protest by these striking miners, some of whom were carrying machetes when suddenly gunfire erupted.

When the shooting finally stopped, three full minutes later, ETV reports 18 bodies were lying on the ground, 18. So what we're going to show you here in just a moment is incredibly, incredibly violent stuff.

The gunfire was captured on video by a photographer for the Reuters News agency. Before we show that to you, I want to bring in our Nkepile Mabuse. She is live for us in Johannesburg.

Nkepile, give me a little bit of the back story before we show this video. Again, what was happening when police come upon these striking miners?

NKEPILE MABUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is such a shocking story. And Brooke, what's even more shocking is we're not hearing anything from the police. They're not confirming official -- an official death toll.

They are not confirming exactly what happened. So what I'm about to tell you is what we've been able to piece together from our sources, from eyewitness, from reporters who were there and saw what transpired. Now, from my understanding, I was there just yesterday and this has been happening over a couple of days now.

These miners are on strike. They want their wages increased by more than double what they're earning right now. The miners are saying, look, we are stuck in a two-year-long wage negotiation. Negotiations cannot happen right now.

These miners congregate every single day on top of a hill. They are armed with machetes and with traditional weapons and police believe with guns as well. And my understanding, from eyewitness, is guns were retrieved after the shoot-out.

Now, the police tried to negotiate with the miners. They've been doing this for a couple of days, for them to lay down their arms and to go back to work and disperse. Negotiations have failed time and again.

Today, we understand from reports, that the police then reacted by firing tear gas and water cannons and that the miners then retaliated with live ammunition. And what you're about to see, these shocking visuals, is what happened next.

BALDWIN: OK, so once again, just to give our viewers a warning, and if you have small children in the room, this is the moment. Please get them away from the TV.

This is incredibly violent video that we're about to show you, but it paints the picture of precisely what happened. Go ahead and roll it.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ceasefire! Ceasefire! Ceasefire! Ceasefire!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We see the bodies on the ground, the police there, all lined up. And when you say the police wanted to negotiate, this does not look like negotiating.

I mean, it appears that they have mowed down. We mentioned 18 people shot and killed. And again, the answer to the question, why, we still don't know.

MABUSE: It does appear that excessive force was used here, Brooke. But, you know, the police are not telling us anything. They're not telling us their side of the story. And as I said, we have to rely on what eyewitnesses have told us about what happened.

And many of them say, you know what, I cannot say who started the shooting. Nobody has been able to tell me tonight that the police started shooting or the protesters started shooting.

But that looks like really something wrong, terribly wrong, happened. I must just add, Brooke, that earlier in the week, you know, up until now, ten people had been killed in this violent wage dispute.

People hacked to death, people set alive, and burnt to death and now this death toll, of course, we don't know how many. I've heard figures between 18 and 30. And among the dead, on Monday, were two police officers.

And there is a strong feeling here in South Africa that police were angry at these miners, police saw them as killers, and that some policeman really do believe that these miners got what they deserved.

But as I said, the police not saying anything, they say they're going to have a press conference tomorrow, but may release the death toll later tonight -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Horrendous, absolutely horrendous. We'll check back in tomorrow and see what police say. Nkepile Mabuse, thank you. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: Since they were born, a young brother and sister have dealt with hearing loss, and now they're teaming up to tell others how to overcome, we'll call them difficulties the life. Dr. Sanjay Gupta introduces us to these truly remarkable kids in this week's "Human Factor."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: My book is mostly about my hearing aid, what I do in life.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Samantha Brownlie is 8 years old and she's already a published author.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I have a hearing aid. I wear it in my left ear.

GUPTA: Her book, which she wrote at the ripe age of 6, is about how she copes with hearing loss.

SAMANTHA BROWNLIE, WROTE A BOOK ABOUT HEARING LOSS: Some people have it, a problem, a different problem that they have in life, but they don't really want to share it, so I like to share it.

GUPTA: Samantha and her 11-year-old brother, Sean, both were born with damage to the nerves in the inner ear, permanent damage in both ears. But at an age when taunting from their peers could shatter their self-image, Samantha and Sean are undaunted.

LISA BROWNLIE, SAMANTHA AND SEAN'S MOTHER: We never saw it as a disability. It's just a factor. I mean, I wear glasses. I don't have a sight disability. I just need help with my vision.

GUPTA: Without the word "disability" weighing her down, Samantha found it in her to write and illustrate this book.

SAMANTHA BROWNLIE: It helps me hear better, because it makes the sounds louder.

GUPTA: It's called "Samantha's Fun FM Book." Her name is on the cover.

LISA BROWNLIE: I thought it was a wonderful project at first, and then it took on a life of its own.

GUPTA: A life of its own, including sales of Samantha's book on amazon.com.

SAMANTHA BROWNLIE: Fifty million people in the country have hearing loss.

GUPTA: And this PSA for the Hearing Health Foundation. And though she has many years ahead of her, Samantha has advice for children and adults about how to overcome.

SAMANTHA BROWNLIE: No matter what happens, I just try, try, try. You can help someone else with it.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Try, try, try. I love that.

Well, police say in his bag, he had 15 Chick-Fil-A sandwiches and a gun with ammunition. That is before he opened fire. Any minute, the conservative group he may have been targeting will address reporters.

Plus, just into us here at CNN, a warning to all baby boomers, the government now recommending that everyone get a certain type of test. That's next.

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