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Oklahoma Aftermath; Interview With Congressman Mac Thornberry; Discussion on National Security and the President's Speech

Aired May 23, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: You have been listening to President Obama speaking at National Defense University about national security.

We're going to check in with our team, CNN national security analyst Fran Townsend, chief political analyst Gloria Borger, chief White House correspondent Jessica Yellin, and of course get a response from a Republican. That specifically would be Republican Congressman Mac Thornberry. He's a member of the House Armed Services and House Intelligence Committee.

I wanted to just before we go to them give you a quick recap of what we have been listening to as President Obama laid out his address. He started off talking a great deal about the tensions of living in a free society, while also trying to keep the country safe.

He discussed many aspects of national security, including two of his administration's most controversial policies, using unmanned Predator drones to attack suspected terrorists in foreign countries and his goal to close the detainee center at Guantanamo Bay.

Almost as if she were a human metaphor for the tension between national security and the freedoms we enjoy in this country, at several points, President Obama was interrupted by a protester, a woman demanding the immediate closure of Gitmo. The president was trying to be patient. He went off script and said her voice was worth listening to, even if he disagreed with her, because she illustrated the point that these are very, very tough issues.

The president gave an overall status report on the war on terror. He said that we are safer as a nation because of his administration's efforts, though he discussed the threats from al Qaeda and affiliated groups. He said -- quote -- "We must define our effort not as a boundless global war on terror, but rather as a series to persistent targeted efforts to dismantle specific networks or violent extremists."

He seemed to be narrowing the so-called global war on terror. He also discussed homegrown terrorists, saying deranged or alienated individuals in the U.S. can do enormous damage, particularly when inspired by larger notions of violent jihad such as Fort Hood or at the Boston Marathon. He insisted that drone strikes are the safest way to wage a war against terrorists in other countries quite often. He called the actions legal. He called them just. He said it was a fight that was only waged proportionally in last resort and in self- defense. He acknowledged civilian casualties. He called the heartbreaking tragedies, but he insisted the death tolls from the terrorists they targeted dwarfs estimates of civilian casualties. He also of course made a renewed push to close Guantanamo Bay. He called on Congress to lift the restrictions on detainee transfers from Gitmo and he said he would take steps to speed up the process of trials in military commissions and transferring detainees.

A lot to chew on, and we're going to start with Congressman Mac Thornberry, as I mentioned, a member of the House Armed Services and Intelligence committees.

Congressman, what is your reaction?

REP. MAC THORNBERRY (R), TEXAS: Well, I thought it was interesting.

When he was interrupted and went off-script, the president said these are serious issues we can't gloss over. And yet he also seemed to say in the speech that we can finish defeating al Qaeda and get back to a pre- 9/11 sort of mentality. Well, that's kind of glossing over, I think, a lot of the details.

Even on Guantanamo, he said if we are just committed to closing it, then we can work out the details later about what happens to the people there and so forth. Well, that's kind of glossing over what's been the holdup. Congress has not had confidence that the administration has a plan on how to do this consistent with our security and that's why Congress has resisted the president's call so far.

TAPPER: You talk about glossing over the threat from al Qaeda. He did talk about at length what a lot of counterterrorism officials believe, that the threat from al Qaeda, per se, has been diminished significantly and now the threats are in different tranches, if you will, these regional organizations like al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, other smaller groups such as the one that took the BP center hostage, and then, of course, homegrown terrorists.

Do you disagree with his assessment that al Qaeda as it existed as a threat to the U.S. before 9/11 has been diminished significantly?

THORNBERRY: I think it has definitely evolved into something different.

I don't think, though, that we can dismiss core al Qaeda as being defeated if we are out of Afghanistan, because then they have a chance to regroup. But I think the broader point is correct. For the last -- each of the last two years, the House has passed a bill to update the authorization for the use of military force to make it clear that it includes these affiliates that have grown in danger in Yemen and elsewhere.

And it's interesting to me in those two years, the president has threatened to veto the bill because of that provision. I think his thinking has evolved, and I think that's a welcome change. We need to update that law, so that it meets the realities of what we face today. TAPPER: I want to bring in some of our analysts.

Of course, Fran Townsend used to work as a homeland security adviser in the Bush White House.

Fran, what was your reaction to the president's speech?

FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: First, I think most significantly, Jake, for five years during the first term and now in the first year of the second term, President Obama has been questioned about what is his counterterrorism policy, how does it distinguish it from the Bush policy of preemption?

And I think we heard that today. The president is moving the country in the direction of policy of what he calls proportionality. The president did talk about the drone program being legal and effective. I think you're going to hear there are lots of people who said they heard President Bush say the interrogation in black site prisons overseas he also believed were both effective and legal, and that wasn't enough to satisfy the American people.

President Obama talked about the targeting of Anwar al-Awlaki and his justification for that. He promised that any U.S. citizen targeted would receive due process. He didn't really define that. And I think that people will find that troubling.

And then lastly, while he talked about al-Awlaki and acknowledged that three other Americans were also killed in drone strikes, he was silent on those, why or how that happened. And I think that the White House is likely to get more questions there as well.

TAPPER: Indeed. In fact, I believe, although I couldn't hear everything she was saying, but I believe the woman protester who was interrupting the president's speech mentioned Awlaki's 16-year-old's son who, by press accounts, was merely looking for his father and was not involved at all with al Qaeda, but he was killed in a drone strike, I believe, in Yemen.

I want to bring in Gloria Borger right now.

Gloria, your reaction to the speech?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: My reaction is that I was listening to a president who was saying to us let's get beyond where we were when I first took office and let me tell you how my thinking has evolved since I have been president of the United States.

And he said to us, look, we're at a crossroads now. He said, we must define the nature and scope of this struggle or it will define us. And I think that is exactly what he's trying to do. I think he said to Congress, particularly as it relates to Gitmo and drones, I need your help in this. I tried to close Gitmo. I promised the American people I would. We should close it. You need to help me out here a little bit.

And in terms of drones, he tried to define when we could use drones, near certainty, that there wouldn't be civilians present, people who present a -- quote -- "continued and imminent threat to the United States." He defended the use of drones, but he also really, Jake, acknowledged that it can be overused even by a president, and that you cannot just depend on drones for your national security.

That will become a real topic of conversation, both in the Congress and with the American public. So both on drones and on Guantanamo, he's going to get some pushback.

TAPPER: And, of course, Gloria, as you know, it wasn't just President Obama who in 2008 promised to close Guantanamo.

BORGER: That's right.

TAPPER: The Republican presidential nominee, John McCain, said he would do so as well, and the president at the time, George W. Bush, said he wanted to close Guantanamo Bay as well, the detainee center, there.

BORGER: That's right.

TAPPER: Jessica Yellin, our chief White House correspondent, Jessica, did you hear anything in the speech that surprised you as a close watcher of the president?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I was actually a little bit surprised that he dinged Congress a bit in the speech, Jake.

You know, I heard the speech as a response to critics in his own party who have been outspoken in accusing him of not being forthcoming enough in defining his own policies. And so this was him saying, look, this is how I see it. This is how I define my terms and how I approach this effort.

So he was explaining his own policies, and then he went on to say those of you who were so critical of me during, for example, John Brennan's hearing, attacking me for not being clear enough on my drones policy, well, he said, I went and we briefed every -- we briefed members of Congress on every single drone strike, including the one that killed an American citizen Anwar al-Awlaki. That was a first. To make that public was news.

He also said, I am open to reconsidering the authorization for the use of force, which is what gives him the power to do these drone strikes to go after al Qaeda, but, you know, he didn't define how he defines al Qaeda, Jake.

So I think there are a lot of unanswered questions that this speech leaves open. What is an associated force of al Qaeda? How does he decide who is -- fits his definition for a strike? Some other things he raised, he said he's open to more oversight in his drone strikes, either from the judicial branch or inside the government, his own executive branch.

But then he immediately knocked down both as problematic. Both of his options are problematic. He said his attorney general is going to look into these leaks investigations and what should be the right balance with press freedoms.

So now you know this as well as I do, Jake. The minute that you say that there is an inquiry and a study under way, now whenever we're going to ask the question in the press briefing room about this, they will say, well, you know there's a study under way, so we will answer that question once the results of that study are complete.

So I bet that will kick those answers down the road and we won't get those answers anymore. So I think there are a lot of questions that this still leaves unaddressed. And some of his critics on the left will still be unsatisfied. But at least he's on the record trying to address his policy and define it before the books on this administration are closed, Jake.

TAPPER: We have to wrap up, but I want to go to Congressman Thornberry for one last thought, which is just, I found it interesting, Congressman -- and you're on the Intelligence Committee on the House of Representatives, so I'm sure you were aware of some of these details already -- but there's been no little that has been publicly said by the government and Anwar al-Awlaki, the U.S. citizen who was killed by a U.S. Predator drone strike, and that the administration for the first time yesterday admitted having ordered that kill.

Of the four Americans killed by drones, that was the only one that was on purpose, Attorney General Holder said. And then he gave details and Awlaki and his role in the failed Christmas Day bombing of the plane, details that I would suspect have been classified up until now about the role that Awlaki played, not just as an inspiration to failed bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, but having actually played a role.

Did that surprise you at all, Congressman?

THORNBERRY: Well, it surprises me a little, and there may well be additional classified information on his activities that has not been unclassified yet.

And so I think in that respect the president is trying to explain when there is a real threat out there, we have got to take action to deal with it. But I want to go back briefly to this point. There are some specifics the president can follow up on. For example, there is a bipartisan bill in Congress now to increase the oversight over these lethal drone operations and capture operations that, again, has bipartisan support.

If the president would endorse something like that, I think it would go a long way to building trust that he is willing to have that independent oversight from Congress looking over the details of these actions in a classified manner, but I think that helped build trust in the public that somebody else is looking at this. And I think he needs to do that.

TAPPER: All right, Congressman Thornberry, thank you so much. That's all for me right now. I will be back in 47 minutes on "THE LEAD."

Brooke Baldwin is live in Moore, Oklahoma, and she will have special coverage continuing after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And here we go. Good to see you. I'm Brooke Baldwin live in Moore, Oklahoma, with CNN's special coverage of this EF-5 tornado that slammed this Oklahoma City suburb three days ago.

You can see every home on the other side of this street absolutely gone. And I will tell you, it's been an interesting day in terms of the weather. This morning, it brought rain and flooding to the area. But right now, it's beautiful blue skies. It's sort of an eerie, odd juxtaposition with the blue skies and then the devastation.

But look at this. This was this morning. Only big trucks were getting through the Oklahoma City area. Cars were getting stuck in about a foot of water. So the focus here, despite all this water which makes it just even more difficult for the families and rescue workers, is just getting through all of this.

A couple of hours ago, the first funeral actually was held for the youngest victims of Monday's tornado; 9-year-old Antonia Candelaria is remembered in her obituary as a beautiful young lady who found joy in everything and was never afraid to try anything. Those are quotes.

Antonia was one of the seven children who died at the Plaza Towers Elementary School here in this neighborhood. And funerals for two more children killed by the tornado are scheduled over the next couple of days.

In terms of the numbers of people injured when this tornado hit, it's actually been changing. It's been pretty fluid, so the number we have right now, it's 353. That is up from the number 237 that we had earlier. Also, Oklahoma's governor is now saying everyone they thought might be missing, thank goodness, has been accounted for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is anybody here? You can smell the gas. Watch out. Is there anybody here? Yes, take them over here. Is there anybody here? Oh, my God.

Is there anybody here? Can you say something? Can you say something, please?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Incredible. You hear this man shouting, is anyone here, is anyone here, can you say something?

This is video of a rescue after Monday's tornado. Volunteers actually found a man buried underneath all this rubble. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Over here, over here. Hey, over here. Where you at?

Where you at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to get you. We're going to get you. Hey, hey. Somebody in here. There's somebody in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going for help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help is right here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's incredible. And it gives you goose bumps to think that these men were able to hear this person's shouts and they were able to find him.

We're told that they pulled him out. He's going to be OK. And they're really just now beginning to add up the destruction from Monday's tornado. We're hearing somewhere in the neighborhood between 12,000 or 13,000 homes were damaged or destroyed.

And we have heard from many, many people, including in the neighborhood I'm standing who lost absolutely everything. In fact, earlier today, I met this incredible man, this father of two, lifelong resident of Moore, his home just next door.

His name is Jackie Sing. And his home, as you will see, it is still standing, sort of. The walls, the brick is all there. But the interior is best described as hit or miss.

Here we were. The tornado hit a lot of items. This is the front of his home. But it also missed some of the things that are most important to this man of faith, the scriptures. As we're walking through this front door, walk with me. And you will see this faith sign on the mantle of his fireplace. You will see it in a second, because he points it out, peach cobbler still on the oven that his wife had cooked. How about that?

Hadn't moved an inch. But there may be one thing that this tornado touched the most and that is Jackie Sing, the man. I want you to watch what he told me when he got to his backyard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKIE SING, SURVIVOR: Me and my wife, we talked about it. It's -- the word surreal, the word surreal does not sum this up. It's beyond that. It's -- I don't know if the lord has it that way, that you have all these feelings in your body that he's waiting to open up that can and let you feel them. But I think there's a lot of emotions in our life that we don't understand until things like this happen and you're actually affected.

You can see it on TV all day. But until you actually feel the experience, it's a life-changing event.

BALDWIN: So your life is forever changed.

SING: Yes.

BALDWIN: You have been here all your life.

SING: Yes.

BALDWIN: Will you be rebuilding? Not that you have to rebuild, but will you be -- will you stay here? Will you fix it up? This is your neighborhood?

SING: I love Moore. I have -- I don't have a fear of tornadoes. I have a healthy respect for their awesome power. God created them for -- sometimes for five minutes, I will be thinking, I'm going to live here. I love this place. I want to rebuild.

The next five minutes, I feel horrible, like I need to move away. And looking at my kids' emotions and my wife's emotions, I don't know right now.

BALDWIN: How are your kids, 13 and 14 years old? How are they handling this?

SING: They are handling it very hard. It's very difficult for them. And I hope going to school today, they have opened the schools for two hours -- I hope that they will find some relief talking to their friends.

And I can't describe how I feel. And I have heard of the people on the west side of town that have nothing. I can't imagine what it's like to have -- just see a slab. And it's the strangest feelings. I can't describe them, just different.

I'm 41 old and the first 41 years of my life are behind me. This is what's next, the next chapter. And I think it's going to make us stronger, because the lord is our refuge and our strength. That's what I have to stand on right now.

I almost wish I was on that side of the street and everything was gone and they were over here because of their brand-new babies.

BALDWIN: You wish your home was destroyed.

SING: I kind of do. I really -- me and my wife said, yes, it might be better to have those people over here and us over there because we have something, and they have brand-new babies -- and -- and sorry. I don't know what to say. I'm just -- help me, lord. Help me, God. I'm sorry.

BALDWIN: Don't apologize. Don't apologize.

SING: It's been a roller coaster the past 72 hours.

Walking through our house the past couple of days makes us realize what's valuable and what's replaceable. I think we can put everything in our lives in a bucket. And that's all we have got to carry out. I have my wife and my kids. That's all I care about. All this other stuff is just.

We got our pictures and the sentimental things. This is -- my dad passed away in '95 and I wear his ring every day as a reminder of my dad. And I wear the ring of my wife. That's the two people in my life. And my mom, bless her heart -- they went -- they just rode out the storm over in Bethel Acres the day before. They were a mile away from it.

And it's hard, very hard. And it really makes you change your thoughts of what matters in life. It really does. You get so caught up in life and working and some coaching and teaching and just trying to be the best you can be for the lord, and the lord gives you something like this. How are you going to react? How are you going to move forward?

It's like the Job experience. When everything is taken away from you, how are you going to start over? And I think this is a test. And I feel comfort in that. I know the lord has something just incredible for me right now. And I got to live every minute and feel what he wants me to feel because he's felt everything that man feels.

And it's -- beyond all the sorrow and grief and hurt I feel, I feel this ray of sunshine in me right now.

BALDWIN: Ray of sunshine despite, despite the thunder.

(CROSSTALK)

SING: Yes.

BALDWIN: Despite the storms.

SING: Just the hope of -- in what God has for us.

BALDWIN: Thank you, Jackie, so much.

SING: You're welcome. I appreciate the time. And I appreciate the outpouring of love. There's been so many people come through that have been so friendly and so giving and their hearts are wide open to help all of us that are devastated, and it's a tremendous feeling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That interview absolutely took my breath away. I want to bring in Moore Counseling Center director Dr. Gant Ward.

Dr. Ward, thank you for being with me.

And this interview with this father, Jackie, to hear him say he wished his home was -- he wished he lived across the street so he could have lost his home, so the parents of the newborn could at least have brick and mortar still standing and he feels guilty. How does he deal with that?

GANT WARD, DIRECTOR, MOORE COUNSELING CENTER: I think the best way is what you did for him. You let him talk. You let him listen.

As human beings, we have the ability to compartmentalize our thoughts. And we saw in that segment where just by you listening and letting him talk through his story, we saw him move from protecting himself from those emotions and experiencing them. We saw that come to life for him and for him to experience that.

You put your hand on him, you comforted him and you continued to listen. Survivor guilt is kind of what you're describing in a different form. I wish it had been me, and not them.

BALDWIN: Yes.

WARD: It's a very common reaction. And they just need someone to -- the ability to express that and listen to them and not make any judgment. And just the listening is going to be enough to help them move their thoughts into that healing phase.

BALDWIN: My heart just absolutely goes out to him. We talked -- we had a whole conversation off-camera after that moment, but he talked about having these kids.

And he has a 13-year-old and a 14-year-old, and I'm sure there are other families in Moore that can relate in which one of the kids, she's terrified. She's absolutely petrified. She had been petrified of tornadoes. She's only known Oklahoma. They're headed to school today to just be among other students, to talk it out.

How do kids work through this?

WARD: Talking it out is a -- they need that. But also they need information.

So there's a lot of confusion. Initially, they don't know exactly what happened. They're getting information from various sources, maybe other students, so the parent need to check in with the child, OK, what have you heard? They need to give them accurate information.

BALDWIN: What kind of information do you mean?

WARD: They want to give them the real likelihood. We are still in the tornado season. But talk about the percentages and the likelihood of actually being hurt. They need information about who is safe to talk to. For example, we're offering free services to anyone who has been affected by the tornado. We're just down the road, Fourth Street and Telephone Road. They need to know where they can reach out. Maybe they saw a parent who was injured or has been emotional themselves.

BALDWIN: Yes.

WARD: The parent needs to allow the child to talk about that. You know, you saw -- I know you saw mommy cry earlier. How did you feel about that?

BALDWIN: Yes, absolutely.

WARD: So you let the -- or maybe they saw their parent injured. That must have scared you when you saw mommy hit by that debris.

BALDWIN: Absolutely. Absolutely.

WARD: And so you try to access their feelings, let them express them, and just give them all the encouragement and reassurance. Reassurance is very important.

BALDWIN: And if you are in the neighborhood, again, there are many counselors available at the Moore Counseling Center.

And, finally, before I let you go, I should point out you lost your home. How are you doing?

WARD: I talked about compartmentalization earlier.

BALDWIN: Speaking from experience.

WARD: So, I was just meeting with the insurance adjuster this morning. And so we went through that process, so I can relate to a lot of the survivors.

BALDWIN: Who are coming to see you currently at the center.

WARD: Right. My own kids were safe. They were at home with my wife in our storm shelter. They went through it. I was at my business. But thank goodness we put that in. They're alive because of it.

BALDWIN: Dr. Ward, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

WARD: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We're thinking about you and thinking about everyone here in Moore.

All these stories, I mean, it just -- some of them just absolutely take your breath away.

Coming up -- coming up next, we're going to talk about New York, New York beefing up security after a brutal terror attack in London. We now know more about the suspect in this video with the bloodied hands, the machetes, and the identity of the victim -- more on that.

Plus, a mother missing since 2009: Now video surfaces of Susan Powell making an eerie prediction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN POWELL, MISSING SINCE 2009: Covering all my bases, making sure that if something happens to me or my family or all of us, that our assets are documented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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