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Jury Weighs Zimmerman's Fate; State Attorney's IT Director Fired; Judge Keeps Lawyers in Check; Getting to Know Zimmerman Jurors; Jury Deciding Zimmerman's Fate; NSA Leaker Speaks from Russia
Aired July 13, 2013 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: You're looking at live pictures now of Sanford, Florida. We are nearing the eight-hour mark of deliberations in the George Zimmerman trial. We'll be taking you back to the courthouse in Sanford, Florida. We're covering that closely.
CHRIS COUMO, CNN ANCHOR: You are watching CNN's special coverage of the George Zimmerman trial. I am Chris Cuomo. Good morning to you.
BOLDUAN: Hi, everybody. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you so much for joining us. A lot to get to this hour.
COUMO: Day two of what we're calling verdict watch in the Zimmerman trial. The jury continued its deliberations through a lunch break in the last hour showing how hard working they are, determined they are. We'll be live from Sanford with any updates.
The judge in the case, Debra Nelson, certainly no nonsense on the stand. We'll talk to another well-known judge to get her take on it, someone you know very well.
BOLDUAN: Another story we're watching closely, NSA leaker Edward Snowden is still in the Moscow Airport reportedly applying for political asylum now in Russia. Well, will he be allowed to stay? That has some serious implications.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: But first here as we show you, George Zimmerman, the jurors are showing their intention to spend every second that they can working until they reach a verdict. That's the good news. They've decided to deliberate through their lunch hour today. They're now nearly in their eighth hour of deliberations as we've been telling you here. They could work as long as they want tonight, with Judge Nelson being very open-ended in honoring their own sense of commitment.
What are the options on the table? We'll put a graphic for you. George Zimmerman could be found guilty of second-degree murder. That means that the prosecution has shown beyond a reasonable doubt that he, with Trayvon Martin, had ill will, had evil intent and then caused the death.
He could also be convicted on a lesser charge of manslaughter meaning that he intentionally did an act that wound up killing Trayvon Martin. That may be much more fertile ground for the jury. That's what the experts are telling us. And of course, he could be found not guilty. What if they don't agree? It has to be unanimous. These six women on this jury must be unanimous.
If not it's called a hung dry jury. It's a mistrial. Whether or not there's a re-trial is up to prosecutors. Will take some time.
BOLDUAN: Let's talk more about this with George Howell who has been live outside the Sanford courthouse really from the beginning.
George, we'll talk more about the case in just a second. But just a quick question to you. There's been some concern about protest demonstrations, hopefully no violence following a verdict. But there are -- have been some protests and some demonstrations outside the courthouse meantime. What's the scene like there at the moment?
GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, remember, when this trial started we saw a few protesters. We're seeing them now as the trial comes to an end here. You see that video there. Just about, you know, couple dozen, several dozen protesters in support of Trayvon Martin holding signs on one side of that area. And then on the other side you see a handful of people showing support for George Zimmerman.
So far it's been a peaceful protest here on these grounds. And remember, we even heard from county officials, city officials just the other day saying here in Sanford, you know, the mood remains peaceful, remains calm. There are people who are showing, you know, protests for either side in the case. But there have been no real problems as of this point.
BOLDUAN: Now looking ahead just a bit, because obviously we are waiting and watching like everyone else for the jury's verdict, I mean they are now hours into deliberations. We've been talking about -- Chris laid out the possible convictions, the possible options that are on the table. We're talking second-degree murder, of course manslaughter, and not guilty of course is an option as well.
What kind of sentences are we looking at in each case, though, to remind viewers, that is not a question that is on the shoulders of the jury. They don't know what kind of sentence they'll be gibing. That's up to the judge. But what could George Zimmerman be looking at depending on what -- what, if he is, convicted with?
HOWELL: Absolutely, Kate. You know, let's talk about first, you know, this lesser charge of manslaughter. Now a jury may hear that and think, hey, that's just a slap on the wrist. In the state of Florida not necessarily. You're talking about a minimum of 10 years behind bars, up to 30 years behind bars.
And then when it comes to second-degree murder. That is a minimum of 25 years in prison. It's an enhancement due to the use of a weapon, a gun, a 25-year enhancement. So a minimum of 25 years and then up to the discretion of the judge, up to life behind bars. And in this state there is no parole. So a life sentence means a life sentence.
There's also that possibility, Kate, that it could be not guilty. And if that is the case, he could be released as the verdict is read or after the verdict is read, I should say, or the judge could, you know, release him a little later, obviously go through a processing phase. But, you know, that could happen.
CUOMO: Now, obviously, George, you know, a lot of people are saying even if he's exonerated here, even if he goes free, that he'll really never be free, that this has stained him, if he's not seen as legally responsible, that morally and publicly people will hold this against him. His life could be very difficult. His lawyer has been talking about that. That's something we'll have to see as the verdict comes out and the story evolves from that.
And, George, let me try something else out on you. It's a new development that we've learned about a person connected to the case.
HOWELL: Right.
CUOMO: The I.T. director in the state attorney's office has been fired. His name is Ben Kruidbos. Here is why he matters. He testified before the Zimmerman case went to trial that the state attorney's office had withheld evidence from the defense. Kruidbos testified about images and deleted text messages on Trayvon Martin's cell phone. You remember the attorneys fighting about what they wanted to get in and why and that things had been withheld. The prosecution denies it but that they withheld anything.
Well, we want you to listen to some of that testimony from before the trial started. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK O'MARA, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What concerns do you have now that you have taken the path of disclosing this information?
BEN KRUIDBOS, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY'S DIRECTOR OF IT: From --
O'MARA: Personally.
KRUIDBOS: Personally? That I'll lose my job.
O'MARA: Do you think that that potential was worth the risk you took in disclosing it?
KRUIDBOS: Yes, I do.
O'MARA: Why is that?
KRUIDBOS: I think all the information being shared is important in the process to make sure that it's a fair trial.
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: You thought that you had an obligation to disclose or potentially disclose something that potentially had happened, but -- and you were upset about it, I guess, right, because you felt that you might be criminally liable in some way, right?
KRUIDBOS: I didn't know what you had turned over.
DE LA RIONDA: OK.
KRUIDBOS: And I was concerned that I would have legal exposure based on that.
DE LA RIONDA: Yes, sir. Yet you still continued to work here or work there at the state attorney's office and to do stuff for Mister -- myself, Mr. Guy and other people. You had no problems doing that.
KRUIDBOS: No.
DE LA RIONDA: OK. Thank you. No further questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So George, those are the facts as we understand them a little bit of what the testimony at issue is. What have you learned about why this could matter?
HOWELL: Well, here. When it comes to the actual case itself, certainly this sets up the possibility of an appeal. You know, if information did not get over to the defense team in a good amount of time, if they weren't able to get that information, then certainly that angle could be open to them.
As far as the prosecutors themselves, if they are found, you know, in fact, that they are -- that they're in violation of handing over discovery as they should have, you know, for the prosecutors it could mean time behind bars. That's not likely, but that could happen. More likely it could be a fine or it could be a sanction on each attorney's record. And certainly that's something no attorney, no prosecutor would want -- Chris.
CUOMO: Thanks, George. Appreciate that.
BOLDUAN: All right. So let's bring in our legal analyst, Sunny Hostin, a former federal prosecutor, and also criminal defense attorney Mark Nejame, to talk about this.
Chris and I were talking about this just earlier. One issue that we have not picked up on yet, and it's an important part of the discussion and an important reason why this trial has gotten national attention, is race, and the role of race in this trial.
I want both of you to weigh in, but first to you, Sunny, what in the trial? What role has race played in the trial that you have seen or not?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it certainly may have been the elephant in the room, but no one talked about race in the room. And in fact, you know, in closing, the government said to the jury, John Guy said to the jury this is not about race. Certainly there was the argument I think early on that the government's theory was based on racial profiling, but the word racial profiling was not introduced in this trial.
In fact, what they refer to was criminal profiling. And that's completely appropriate because there were other young black teens that George Zimmerman says were burglarizing homes and he identified Trayvon Martin as another person possibly burglarizing homes.
For him it seemed to have been the fact that he may be a criminal which is why he called the police and called him a suspect. And so, you know, I think many people are saying that this case is about race. But certainly in the courtroom that I've been sitting in every day, that hasn't been mentioned.
CUOMO: A lot of it goes to the fact that the arrest took a long time and that people believe that that's because the victim was African- American.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLDUAN: And Mark O'Mara made that --
HOSTIN: Prior to the trial. Prior to the trial.
CUOMO: Yes. Prior to the trial, the reason there wasn't arrest early on was because the victim was black. If the victim had been white, it would have been different. And then where it wound up resting its head during the trial was actually in what this profiling might be about.
So, Mark Nejame --
BOLDUAN: Yes, Mark, you (INAUDIBLE).
CUOMO: On all of these calls that the prosecution used to show ill will, to show the -- secondary murder intent come from before the event. Is there any proof of anything that George Zimmerman said or did on this night that goes in that direction at all?
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, let's just be straight about it. You know, it frustrates me to no end about the dancing that goes on. Of course race is a central issue to this trial. And just because you don't mention race doesn't mean that it's not been discussed. You know, most of our communication is non-verbal. By saying that there's a profiling going on absolutely suggests that there was a young black teenager walking in the streets with a hoodie on, and that's suddenly discussing the issue of race.
You heard that time and time and time again from the prosecutor. And it didn't escape the defense. What did the defense do? Remember the one witness, the African-American lady who was ill and she was in her bed? That was brought in timely. Why? Because you want -- the defense wanted to show that George was universal in his embracing of people, black or white. So that was a conscious decision by them to have an African-American friend come in to help make a statement.
HOSTIN: But then the defense injected race here.
(CROSSTALK)
NEJAME: That's why I just said -- HOSTIN: The defense injected it. Not the state.
NEJAME: I said that -- I said that everybody did. The reality of it is, is that race is a central issue. If race wasn't an issue, why do we have the Trayvon Martin's family's attorney saying that this is the biggest civil rights case in this century so far? Of course it's an issue and we need to take the scales off of our eyes and understand that we still have racial issues in the United States because I --
HOSTIN: But it's not an issue in the trial.
NEJAME: Hold on -- because I took -- because I've taken the legal position that I didn't think there was probable cause, I've had people write to me and say I'm a racist because I have a legal opinion. So of course race is an issue. And it rears its ugly disgusting head throughout. And we have a long way to go. We've done well but we've got a long way to go. And all the subtle overtones have been there from before the arrest, during the arrest and it weaved its way through this trial without stop.
BOLDUAN: And to remind our viewers, as the focus now obviously is on the jury at this moment, it's just after 1:00 in the East. They had worked through lunch. That was from noon to 1:00. And they're now back deliberating and we are watching and waiting to see exactly what happened and we will need to depend on you two to be with us when we do get that verdict, when it does come in so we'll leave it right there for the moment, though.
Sunny Hostin, Mark Nejame, great to see you, guys. Thanks so much.
All right. Other stories that we're watching this morning. In Texas the state Senate has passed considered one of the more restrictive abortion bills in the country. Critics say it will impose new restrictions on abortion clinics in Texas, effectively shutting most of the clinics down. Well, proponents of the bill, on the other say, say it shows a greater respect for human life and improves the standard of care at those clinics.
The bill originally failed after a filibuster by Democratic state senator there. Republican Governor Rick Perry, supporter of the law, he is expected to sign it into law soon.
We've got an exclusive interview with Governor Perry. You're going to see that tomorrow on "STATE OF THE UNION" with Candy Crowley at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.
CUOMO: In San Francisco, a third person has died from injuries suffered in the crash of Flight 214. The plane crash-landed at San Francisco's airport last Saturday. In keeping with the wishes of the family, doctors are not releasing the victim's name, only saying she was a young female.
Those are the stories we're watching. Right now, of course, obviously we're on verdict watch here for you.
BOLDUAN: Yes. CUOMO: Eyes on Sanford, Florida. Now, if you thought that Judge Judy was tough, wait until we show you the no-nonsense judge in the Zimmerman case. She is really a model for jurists. And we'll show you why when we come back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: Welcome back, everybody. The jury on their second day of deliberations now. Their job obviously to figure out the fate of George Zimmerman. We are monitoring the courthouse throughout the hour. As we get any developments, we'll be bringing them to you. And one of the interesting aspects of this trial has been the dynamic in the courtroom as orchestrated by the judge.
Judge Nelson, she has been really strong, especially with the defense. And we're going to show you a little taste of how the judge has run this trial. Take a look and a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: I understand. I've already ruled, and you have -- you continually disagree with this court every time I make a ruling. I have provided you on three separate occasions with the court's professional conduct in the courtroom, and included in that is do not continue to argue with the court after we've ruled.
If I have made a mistake in this case, you will appeal. If there is a conviction, it will get upheld -- appealed to a higher court and they can review it to determine whether or not I made a mistake.
This is my ruling on this issue. You are free to communicate that to the jury in your closing argument. I am not instructing them on that. Moving on.
DON WEST, ZIMMERMAN DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I would like to --
NELSON: Moving on --
WEST: I'm not disagreeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right. There's just a little taste of it.
BOLDUAN: Yes. We've watched a lot of this. But let's talk about this more with someone who knows more about being a judge than we do.
(LAUGHTER)
A former judge well-known for her no nonsense TV trials, Glenda Hatchett. Also a former presiding judge of Atlanta's juvenile court.
Glenda, thanks so much for coming in.
GLENDA HATCHETT, FORMER JUVENILE COURT JUDGE: Thank you. BOLDUAN: Thank you. So give us your take. I mean, this -- Judge Debra Nelson, she's got a lot more people kind of critiquing her performance than many judges do because she's on national television and everyone is watching this moment by moment.
HATCHETT: Right.
BOLDUAN: But what do you think of her style and how she's handling and managing her courtroom?
HATCHETT: Let me tell you. I am very impressed with the way she's done it. And frankly, because of her, this case has moved I think very efficiently. I think in the back of her mind she's completely conscious of the fact that there's a sequestered jury. But I think that she has been very methodical in her rulings. People have not always agreed that she has been very clear about what she did.
Now I will tell you honestly, tell both of you, that if they had posed some of those antics in my courtroom, there would have been fireworks. I thought she was extremely patient and far more lenient in certain circumstances than I would have been. For example, when the judge rules, that's it.
BOLDUAN: Right.
HATCHETT: I mean, you know, when I rule, I'll let you say whatever you want to say, make all the arguments, but once I rule, that is the end of the conversation, period, nothing else. And for him to continue -- for Don West to continue like he did, I thought bordered on really the possibility of being held in contempt in that courtroom. And --
CUOMO: And Judge, sometimes strength is restraint, though, right? And that was something that Judge Nelson showed there.
HATCHETT: She did.
CUOMO: And something that -- something that we've been dealing with with the audience through this story is people are fascinated by the fact that the judge and counsel are going at it. But please tell everybody how common that is that -- you know.
HATCHETT: It is very common.
CUOMO: And jive us a sense of that because -- people feel like -- first of all, the jury wasn't there. But oh, my goodness, this judge doesn't really like this attorney and this is going to affect the outcome.
HATCHETT: No.
CUOMO: Give us a sense of what the dynamics like in general.
HATCHETT: Absolutely, Chris. And I'm glad you brought that up. People are thinking that they are really adversaries and aren't getting along. But really I appreciate lawyers who are passionate and tenacious and really zealous about representing their clients. I think that is a plus. And I think that we come to expect that in the courtroom.
I do think that a couple of times that they really did cross the line. But she is there to really set the parameters. And the fact that there are some exchanges and people are going oh my goodness, I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I would much rather have a zealous attorney in my courtroom, vigorously arguing for their -- for their client than to have someone who's sort of passive and let things go wrong.
But these are high stakes and the defense understands that this man's life really is on the line as to whether he is going to be acquitted and spend the rest of his life in prison or perhaps even on the manslaughter charge spend could be up to 30 years. So, you know, a lot at stake, and I think that people are being very critical of the judge. But this is a hard job, especially when you've got the world watching.
BOLDUAN: And especially, as you well noted, when they have a sequestered jury. And that's something that we've also heard a lot of, is that she has -- she cares very much about the jury and moving things along and not wasting their time and only keeping them there as long as they need to be and getting them what they want. And I think that a lot of people are also taking note about that.
Glenda --
HATCHETT: We should be very grateful, too, because we saw a different kind of tact in the Jodi Arias trial that took on and on and on. So I'm grateful to see an efficient judge, frankly.
BOLDUAN: Yes. All right. Well, stick with us. We're going to take a quick break right here. And when we come back, a jury consultant is going to be joining us, a consultant who worked with the O.J. Simpson trial is going to be joining us. We're going to talk about a little bit what goes in to picking a jury because they have such an essential role obviously in the fate of this case. And we'll also going to get some insight on what the jurors are doing behind those closed doors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOLDUAN: We're watching this courthouse in Sanford, Florida, very closely. Waiting and watching for the jury to come back with a verdict. They're still hold up in deliberations. They've been there since 9:00 this morning, even working through lunch.
Again you're looking at live pictures of the courthouse there where we're going to take you as soon as the six jurors decide George Zimmerman's fate.
It is an all-female panel and while we don't know their identities, and that's for good reason, we have learned a lot about the jurors' background. And what really kind of caught their attention in the court.
Here is CNN's Randi Kaye to explain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For weeks the jury of six women has been a captive audience as prosecutors and defense lawyers tried to sway them. From the moment it started, pure drama. Prosecutor John Guy's opening statement.
GUY: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning.
GUY: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) punks. These (EXPLETIVE DELETED). They always get away. Those were the words in that grown man's mouth as he followed in the dark a 17-year-old boy who he didn't know.
KAYE: CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin has been in court every day.
HOSTIN: The inference is, yes, these are shocking, ugly, hateful words. And that wasn't lost upon the jury. I looked at them very, very closely. And some of them did seem shocked and offended almost by the words.
KAYE: At other times the jury seemed to be captivated by the defense, especially when defense attorneys pulled out a dummy in court to help illustrate the confrontation.
NEJAME: I was very impressed when they all stood up to get a bird's eye view of when the actors, the lawyers were atop those dummies and they were trying to replicate or reproduce what was going on between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman.
O'MARA: By doing this.
NEJAME: I think that was very telling. It showed how into this they were, how they followed. They were looking -- they were watching a tennis match.
KAYE: Jurors were especially engaged when the mothers of both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman testified. Five out of six jurors are married and almost all of them have children. Prosecutor John Guy keyed into that here.
GUY: Was that child not in fear when he was running from that defendant? Isn't that every child's worst nightmare, to be followed on the way home in the dark by a stranger? Isn't that every child's worst fear? That was Trayvon Martin's last emotion.
HOSTIN: I looked directly at the jury when he said those words, and their eyes didn't leave his face. And so I think that it couldn't have been more powerful for the makeup of that jury.
KAYE: Juror E-6, a blond, with two children, put down her pen during that very moment and stared intently at the prosecutor. Her children are 11 and 13, she's a proud member of her church. Her husband is an engineer. Other specifics on the women deciding Zimmerman's fate? Juror B-29 is originally from Chicago. She's been married for 10 years, she's the only minority on the jury, either black or Hispanic. She has eight children, only one older than 18.
Juror B-76 has a son who is an attorney. She is unemployed now but used to run a construction company with her husband. She loves animals. Juror B-37 is the daughter of an air force captain. One of her children is a pet groomer, another a student at the University of Central Florida.
Juror B-51 is the only juror who isn't married. She's a retired real estate agent and a transplant from Atlanta. And Juror E-40 is married to a chemical engineer. She has one son. In her spare time she watches football, reads and likes to travel.
(On camera): This jury took lots of notes, copious notes while George Zimmerman's reenactment at the scene was being played in court, also when the medical examiner and DNA expert testified. It seemed as if they wanted to be sure they understood what was being said, they didn't want to miss a thing.
(Voice-over): Ashley Merryman is n expert on jury behavior. She predicts this all-women jury will exhaust every alternative and look at every piece of evidence.
ASHLEY MERRYMAN, AUTHOR, "TOP DOG: THE SCIENCE OF WINNING AND LOSING": Women's social circles are based in pairs, telling that best friend all of your secrets and having no hierarchy. Everyone has agreement and avoids conflict. And they really continue to apply that even in that group setting.
KAYE: Merryman says don't expect any yelling in this jury room, but don't expect a quick verdict either.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOLDUAN: Randi Kaye really wrapping it up for us. A lot to consider with this jury.
CUOMO: Very much. Very much.
BOLDUAN: Yes.
CUOMO: Thank her for that.
And now we want to come back with our special coverage of the George Zimmerman murder trial. We have with us former Judge Glenda Hatchett. Also with us in Atlanta as we await the jury's decision, the jurors have been deliberating now for nearly eight hours. We want you to know that they're certainly putting in a full day's work already.
So let us bring jury consultant Jo-Ellan Demetrius joining us from Phoenix. So it's great to have both of you here. People say this is very weird, this is a six-person jury, all female. Well, the six-person part is not weird, right, in Florida law and other states. Non- capital case, non-death penalty case, you don't have 12 jurors, you have six. So we take care of that part. But now we have the all- female part.
Let's start with you, Jo-Ellan. How unusual is that and why do you think the two sides wound up there?
JO-ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, Chris, it is unusual to have a single-gender jury. Sometimes you end up with that if you've got people who get off and alternates come in. But I think what's important to realize here is that from both side's perspective they agreed on this jury.
We know that the prosecutor tried to get rid of a few of the jurors. The judge said no, you can't do that. The same thing is true with the defense. So truly this is a jury that both sides have agreed upon. But it is very unusual that it is an all-female jury. I'm not that surprised, though, because I think that what perhaps both sides wanted to take out of the picture was the mail perspective which is that as males grow up, they're more likely to be in a physical confrontation verses we women, we're more likely to get into verbal confrontations.
So they wanted to take the personal experience out of male jurors saying, well, I would have done such and such in this situation and George Zimmerman didn't.
BOLDUAN: Judge, I want to bring you into this as well. I mean, we heard over and over again, you heard Randi Kaye talk about it in her piece and we've heard it from our legal analyst that this was a very engaged jury, these -- no one needed to be woken up part way through when they got into, like, the nitty-gritty detail during some testimony.
Of course we cannot get into their heads. We know that. But what do you take away from that?
HATCHETT: Well, I think that this is a going to be a very decisive, deliberate, tenacious jury. And it was interesting because I was here Friday night with a bunch of lawyers here at CNN back in the back, and we were debating the whole thing. And people thought that this would be a quick verdict. And I said absolutely not. I think they're going to take their time.
I think they're going to be particularly meticulous about this because I think they understand how much is on the line. And we owe jurors a great debt of gratitude because this is a tough thing. I got a tweet last night from a juror on -- on the Brian Nichols case, you remember the guy who shot the judge.
CUOMO: Yes.
HATCHETT: And just the pain you could hear still in his voice. And so this is a tough haul, and I think that they're going to be working really, really, really working hard to get it right.
CUOMO: You know, it's interesting, something we keep hearing from people including both attorneys. And it's something, Jo-Ellan I want you to speak to before we wrap the segment. Both attorneys talked about emotion. The prosecutor said this is about your heart. That's what matters most. Unusual for a prosecutor but --
BOLDUAN: He leaned a lot on emotions. (INAUDIBLE). Yes.
CUOMO: He was appealing to it. The defense attorney said remember, this isn't about how you feel, this is about law and effect. A lot of people in the audience come at us saying what they think women will do because of their inclinations.
Jo-Ellan you measure jurors for a living. Is there any reason to believe that women won't be as rational as men, that they'll be more about their heart than their head? Is there any reason to believe that or is it just another stereotype?
DIMITRIUS: Well, to an extent it is a stereotype. But certainly doing years and years and years of jury research, what we do here in focus groups and mock trials is people, women, talking about emotional impact. You don't have men talking about that. So it is a stereotype. But generally there's always some truth to a stereotype.
BOLDUAN: All right. We're going to leave it there. It's great to see you guys and great to get your insight.
And again, we'd love to, and of course we can't get into the heads of the jury. But they have a tough job ahead of them. We are all watching and waiting to hear what their verdict is.
Former Judge Glenda Hatchett and also Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, great to see you both. Thank you.
HATCHETT: Thank you.
CUOMO: Men may not talk about it. It doesn't mean that they're not feeling it, that they're not influenced by it when they're in the box either. I think that -- there's no reason to sell this jury short. They've showed everything from this point so far that they're taking it seriously.
BOLDUAN: I think both of the rule -- the fact that the majority of them are parents.
CUOMO: Yes .
BOLDUAN: Be them a mother or a father, the fact that they're parents I think is also something that both sides are trying to play on.
CUOMO: Absolutely. Absolutely.
All right. So let's take a little break here. It's about 35 minutes past the hour. We're going to be watching the George Zimmerman case, of course. But other news as well. Tens of thousands of Egyptians rallying in Cairo in support of the former president, Mohamed Morsi. Meanwhile the State Department here in the U.S. has a message for the new Egyptian government. What is it and why are they sending it? We'll tell you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: George Zimmerman, there he is, back in a Florida courthouse today waiting to hear the verdict in his trial. The jury deliberating for more than eight hours at this point. We are watching everything coming out of that courtroom. We'll bring you updates when we get them.
We also have other news to catch you up on. Here is what we're watching.
The State Department is calling for the release of former Egyptian president Mohamed Morsi calling his detention, quote, "politically motivated." This as tens of thousands of Morsi supporters gathered in Cairo to protest his ouster.
BOLDUAN: And rail stations across France are observing a moment of silence today to honor the victims of a fatal train crash there. At least six people were killed and 22 injured when a passenger train derailed south of Paris yesterday. The head of the railway says a mechanical failure caused that crash.
Now the Zimmerman trial is grabbing people's attention really across the country. And social media has played a big part and is exploding with support for both sides.
Nick Valencia is going to -- is joining us now from the CNN center in Atlanta with more on this.
You've been monitoring Twitter and Facebook with all the reaction. People have been very passionate to say the least, I believe.
Nick, what are you seeing?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, some people have been obsessed with this trial. George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin, two of the most popular names on the Internet today. Each has had their name tweeted thousands of time -- thousands of times, Kate. And what we're seeing throughout the morning, this trend is currently the blackout for Trayvon Martin.
You see here it was tweeted out earlier by Benjamin Crump, he's the family's attorney for the Trayvon Martin family. You've seen Flo- rida, he's a hip-hop artist, P. Diddy, rap mogul, Sybrina Fulton, of course the mother of Trayvon Martin, taking this out this blackout for Trayvon Martin, showing solidarity with Trayvon.
But of course there's also been not only celebrities weighing in but just average ordinary viewers, everyday residents of the United States. Once we -- I asked people to send me tweets, one of them came all the way from Nigeria. This one talking about the U.S. justice system. The U.S. justice system mean less if he walks free, that of course calling out George Zimmerman, saying it's murder, that deserves justice.
Michael Worthy weighed in with his tweet as well. He says, "I believe that George Zimmerman will get what he deserves. God knows what he did and he cannot escape God's justice."
George Zimmerman has his supporters. A lot of them had been on conservative blogs and conservative Web sites but some are just very simply showing their solidarity by trying to get the hash tag "I am George Zimmerman" trending. He also has a Facebook page which just jumped over 11,000 likes in the last hour.
This one, one of the most clicked-on comments, 10,000 Americans believe that George Zimmerman is innocent. Hash tag Zimmerman, hash tag freethez, hash tag long live Zimmerman.
This case has a lot of people talking and as we wait for that verdict, Kate, it's only going to expect you to get more and more trending on these social media forums -- Kate.
BOLDUAN: Yes. This trial has just captivated the country and everyone. Waiting and watching for that very verdict.
Important to note, though, and Chris, thank you -- thank you so much, Nick.
Important to note, though, six people not on social media, six people not watching Facebook and Twitter, the six women in the jury.
CUOMO: Absolutely. They are sequestered and they're not allowed to take in any outside media. And that's a good thing.
BOLDUAN: Yes, that's good.
CUOMO: Because opinions are all over the place. We of course are on Twitter as well. At katebolduan, at chriscuomo. We're happy to answer your questions whenever we can. But remember, at the end of the day, what matters most is we've got to respect the process. And that's what these six jurors have showed us by their example of how diligently they're taking it, working through lunch, asking for a detailed list of exhibits. They seem to be doing their job the right way. We have to trust this process.
BOLDUAN: Yes. We're now several hours into their deliberations.
CUOMO: Absolutely. And we'll be watching it. We'll be watching Sanford, Florida, whenever anything comes in, we'll be telling you.
The question, of course, is what will George Zimmerman's fate be. When we come back, we'll be joined by two experts who have been on both sides of the bench, prosecution and defense. What's their take? We'll let you know.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CUOMO: Jurors in the case deliberating right now. We're waiting for their verdict. We've been telling you that all morning. But that's the job right now as we keep following this story throughout the hour.
Joining us right now, two people who know a lot what it's like to wait for a verdict. We have in the CNN Center Page -- Page Pate and Tanya Miller. Mr. Pate is a criminal defense attorney and Miss Miller is a defense attorney and former federal prosecutor.
All right. We've been talking about race here and whether it's an issue and why it's an issue and how. Let me put something on the table. Prosecutors were talking about profiling and why they believe and argue that George Zimmerman was targeting Trayvon Martin because he reminded Zimmerman of black kids wearing hoodies who had been committing crimes. I mean that was their theory, they used prior 911 calls.
But here's what I want to ask you, Mr. Pate. If race is a part of this trial why didn't the prosecutors charge George Zimmerman with a law that's on the Florida books, it's called aggravation of crime by selecting victim based on prejudice?
PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that's --
CUOMO: Right?
PATE: You're right, Chris. I mean that charge is available to the state. But it's a tough charge to make. And I don't know that you want to stand in front of a jury and not only accuse George Zimmerman of being a murderer, but being a racist murderer. It's a real --
CUOMO: But what you -- what are you doing, though, Mr. Pate, as the prosecutor when you're saying listen to these old 911 calls, not the calls that night, not anything that he said about Trayvon Martin, but what he said in the past about people who look like Trayvon Martin? Aren't they doing it there? If they're doing it there, why not just bring the charge?
PATE: Well, I didn't say you should ignore race as the prosecutor because you do have to suggest to the jury some reason that Mr. Zimmerman is out for Trayvon Martin. If it's racial, if it's because he thinks he's a criminal, there has to be that ill will, that hatred. And for them that was one way of showing it without overtly calling him a racist. And you'll notice they didn't do that during the trial.
CUOMO: But, Tanya, what's the functional difference? If you're saying the reason George Zimmerman ignored 911 operators, went after this guy, had a loaded weapon, is because he has it out for kids like this, isn't that the message you're sending to the jury and the whole world who's watching this?
TANYA MILLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think it's very nuanced. I think what the prosecutor did and I think they really did the best they could with it was try to explain to the jury why this happened, why Trayvon Martin looked so suspicious to George Zimmerman, why you can conclude that he had ill will towards Trayvon Martin when he followed him, when he pursued him and when he made all these false assumptions about him without sort of adding that extra layer of proving that this was a race -- racially motivated homicide, that he sought out to kill Trayvon Martin because he was black. I think that would have been adding more of a burden to their case than they needed to.
BOLDUAN: Now, Page, let me ask you this because I want to get your take on this. And Tanya, I want to get your take on this as well. Continuing on the vein of charges, where do you stand on the kind of the idea of overcharging? The prosecution has taken quite a bit of heat for maybe not being able to meet the threshold of -- of George Zimmerman being able to be convicted on the second-degree murder charge.
They now have manslaughter that is also an option for the jury. But do you think that -- that they over charged here, they overstepped, they just couldn't meet that threshold?
PATE: I'm certain that they overcharged. But I'm not sure that's a bad strategy. It happens all the time. And prosecutors will go into a courtroom and they'll say, look, we're going to put on our best case, we're going to charge him with the highest, most serious crime that we can and hopefully, if the jury doesn't see the evidence to support that, they'll say well, the guy shouldn't walk away.
And we've got this other charge available to us. The law supports it. The evidence supports it. So it may not seem fair but it certain does happen in trials.
BOLDUAN: What do you think, Tanya? Do you think it was strategy? Or do you think they -- that was a misstep?
MILLER: I don't think it was a misstep. I certainly think that it is an appropriate thing to do as a prosecutor. Look, when you're elected to be that prosecutor and to make those charging decisions, you are invested with a certain degree of discretion. Your job is to protect the public, and if you see a crime and you think it warrants the highest charge, notwithstanding the fact that, you know, reasonable people might differ, you're still going to go for that highest charge, give the jury the opportunity to consider your case as strong or as weak as it may be and ultimately make the decision. Prosecutors do it all the time. It's very common.
PATE: You know, if I can add one thing to that, I actually think it's easier for the prosecution to prove a manslaughter case if they initially charge him with second-degree murder. You know, it's very hard for a jury to simply analyze one charge and say, OK, we're going to convict him of this or we're going to let him completely go. If you give the jury an option, you're more likely to walk out with a conviction.
CUOMO: Appreciate it from both of you. Page, Tanya, thank you very much for the insight. We're going to move on now. But it's an important point that you made. People want to put a lot of things into this trial. What it's really about. Maybe it would be helpful just to look at what the prosecution is doing, look what they think is important, look what the facts that they brought forward, the facts and the law and the process is what we have to respect as we all await the verdict there.
We're also covering other stories for you this morning. For instance, the NSA leaker, Edward Snowden. He has now made a Russian airport his temporary home. He is actually looking to stay even longer in the country. He is now asking Russia for a temporary asylum.
We're going to have an expert analyst on. He's going to give us the take on the best option for the NSA leaker when we come back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOLDUAN: It's been over eight hours in deliberations and the six jurors responsible for George Zimmerman's fate are still behind closed doors, still working through all the information that's been put to them by the court. You're looking now at live pictures of the court house in Sanford, Florida.
CUOMO: We will bring you the verdict live as soon as there is one. We've been watching for it but there are other stories we're watching as well.
BOLDUAN: That's right.
CUOMO: NSA leader Edward Snowden seeking temporary asylum in Russia. He is still holed up in a Moscow airport. He spoke out yesterday accepting all offers of asylum including those from Venezuela and Bolivia. But here's the thing. He said it's impossible for him to really accept asylum because the United States won't let him leave. So his alternative is to try to try to stay in Russia for now.
BOLDUAN: So where will Edward Snowden go. Will he stay? Will he go? And where will he end up? And will the U.S. ever be able to get him back as the administration clearly wants. We'll talk more about this with former CIA analyst Bob Baer. He's joining us now.
Bob, it's great to see you. I mean, I think we can talk about kind of the best option for Snowden in his flight path, which is already difficult enough and carries enough risk, but kind of in general, what do you think the best option that Snowden faces right now?
ROBERT BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Kate, I think he should stay in Russia. You know, they have a long history with taking American defectors. It's fairly safe, it's a stable government. Putin would be fully behind this, the president of Russia.
Going to Venezuela is a real problem. You know, you could have another coup there, a change in government. The new government may feel it's best to turn him over to the United States, so I think his best option truly is staying in Moscow.
BOLDUAN: And when you talk about the best option for Snowden, that might not be the best option for U.S.-Russian relations. I mean, we know that President Obama spoke President Putin yesterday, and the readout that came from the White House is pretty innocuous, we don't get much information on it but just to remind our viewers, the read- out from the White House is that the two leaders noted the importance of the U.S.-Russian bilateral relations and discuss the range of security and bilateral issues including the status of Mr. Edward Snowden and the cooperation on counterterrorism in the lead-up to the Olympics, which I guess is another topic that they were talking about.
What do you see -- I mean, do you believe that this would have, if he would stay in Russia, a serious impact on U.S.-Russian relations.? It's already a tense relationship. But could it get worse?
BAER: I think it would have an impact. But the problem is, there is hundreds of Russian defectors living in this country that the Russians would like to try and bring back home. And we're not giving them up and they're safe here. So the Russians are privately saying, listen, you guys, you know, this is the way the game is played. This is guy is on our turf. We have him, you do it to us, we're going to do it to you.
And especially Putin doesn't particularly like this president. He's mad about Syria, a couple other issues, and anything to poke it in his eye right now would serve the Russians well.
BOLDUAN: You, of course, work with the CIA, and I want to get a look at this from the other perspective which is, what is your take? It seems to be both sides of the debate on how impactful, how harmful the leaks were that Snowden put out there. What's your take? How harmful were those each leaks that Snowden gave up?
BAER: Frankly, without being inside the investigation, I would say it is the worst espionage case we've had in 20 or 30 years. It hearkens back to Rick Ames, the CIA mole. The amount of secrets he apparently is giving up in -- including code breaking, Internet, snooping, and the rest of it is enormously damaging to the United States, and this is why it's such a big case and why this administration wants the guy back so badly, to find out exactly what damage he did do.
BOLDUAN: And also, isn't it also a question of what else does he have? What additional damage can he do?
BAER: Kate, if you stick a thumb drive in an NSA computer and just start sucking it all up, who knows what he's done? You know, it's -- this is a huge failing on the part of the National Security Agency, and the only way to find out, of course, if they have a thumb drive, but short of that is to ask Snowden what he downloaded.
BOLDUAN: Right. Bob Baer, great to get your take on this. It's an important story, we continue to follow and we still need to find out where will Edward Snowden end up, and do all -- what avenues end up with him in a courtroom here in the United States? We will see.
Bob Baer, great to see you. Thank you so much.
CUOMO: But just short of 2:00. We're going to take a quick break here. We're monitoring the George Zimmerman trial. For any developments, we'll give them to you straightaway. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: All right, everybody, CNN's special coverage of George Zimmerman and a lot of other news will continue. But for right now, that's it for us.
I'm Chris Cuomo.
BOLDUAN: And I'm Kate Bolduan.
CUOMO: We're going to go to Don Lemon down in Sanford, Florida, keeping his eyes on the courthouse.
Don, to you.
