Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Awaiting Verdict from Zimmerman Jury

Aired July 13, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John King. This is CNN's special live coverage in the verdict watch of the trial of George Zimmerman. Was it murder, manslaughter, or self-defense?

After 14 days of testimony, slideshows, witnesses, theatrics, and even a little courtroom bickering, the case comes down to this. George Zimmerman's fate is not in the hands of the six member jury. After deliberating three hours and 33 minutes yesterday with three choices in front of them -- second-degree murder, manslaughter, or not guilty, those six members of the Zimmerman jury reached a decision, their first decision. They decided to sleep on it.

They have been back now for several hours today. And every legal expert in the land says you can never predict what a jury will do.

When you take a look at these high-profile cases, you can understand. A little history here, it took the Jodi Arias jury 15 hours to convict her in the first-degree murder of her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander. In the Casey Anthony trial, jury took 10 hours and 40 minutes to convict her in the death of her daughter. Conrad Murray, nine hours to convict him involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson. Scott Peterson, jurors took a whopping seven days to convict him of the murder of his wife and unborn child. And jurors in the O. J. Simpson murder trial have less four hours to acquit him back in 1995.

One thing to remember here, all those juries have 12 members. There are just six in the George Zimmerman trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Juror E-6, a blonde, her children are 11 and 13. She's a proud member of her church. Her husband is an engineer. Other specifics of the women deciding George Zimmerman's fate? Juror B-29 is originally from Chicago. She's been married for 10 years. She is the only minority on the jury, black or Hispanic. She has eight children, only one under 18. Juror B-76 has a son with an attorney. She is unemployed now used to running construction company with their husband. She loves animals. Juror B-37 is the daughter of an Air Force captain. One of her children is a pet groomer and another who is a student at the University of central Florida. Juror B-51 is the only juror who isn't married. She is a retired real estate agent and a transplant from Atlanta. And juror E- 40 is married to a chemical engineer. She has one is not married. She's a retired real estate agent. And another one has one son, married to a chemical engineer. She has one son. In her spare time, she watches football, read and likes to travel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Again, the jury back at it today more than nine hours they have been deliberating,

Joining me now to discuss where we are, expert legal panels, Trent Copeland, a criminal defense attorney, Paul Callan, CNN legal analyst, Susan Constantine, jury consultant.

Susan, let's start with you. What do you read into this? This is your area of expertise. They deliberated yesterday afternoon, decided to go home a little early. They're deliberating all day today. They had a lunch break. And earlier, they sent a note to the judge they want a numbered list of all the evidence. Does that tell you anything about where this jury is in its process right now?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, what I -- my particular opinion would be that right after they had already went through their juror -- I'm sorry -- I'm sorry; can you switch over?

KING: Let's move on. Paul Callan --

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I can jump in.

KING: Jump in, Paul, please. So the jury, you never know. You never know what they're talking about, you don't know how they're organizing, you don't know sort of who is taking charge in there (INAUDIBLE), at this point, nine and a half hours in and they want a numbered list of the evidence. What does that tell you?

CALLAN: Well, you know, I think we can read this tea leaves a bit because they are asking to look at the evidence really, they're going to look at the inventory and then they're going to decide which pieces they want to look at. If we were on the verge of a verdict, I don't think we would see a question like that, and also, when jurors get into the situation when there is a split, let's say four voting one way, two voting another, a lot of times you start to see read backs because sometimes the four are trying to convince the two, hey, if you would just listen to this piece of testimony, you'll come around to our view of the case. So, we are not -- we haven't seen any read backs today. So, it seems to me they are sort of just in the early stages of deliberation, particularly going through the evidence, and I don't think they have reached any conclusions as of right now.

KING: And Trent, from a defense attorney perspective, as you watch this play out, I mentioned some other high profile cases where you have 12 jurors. This is under six under Florida law because it's not a capital punishment case. Any difference does the history, as your experience; tell you when you have a tough case like this? Do these jurors tend to work things out more quickly because they are smaller, or does that not matter?

TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, a couple things. First of all, John, I think because they're sequestered, they tend to work things out differently. Remember, these people haven't been home. They haven't seen their families. They haven't been able to tend to personal matters. So, that is going to weigh in this to some extent. But I think they're going to take it seriously. But in terms of the fact this is such a high-profile case, I think they want to make sure they get it right. There's been every indication how this jury has conducted themselves during the deliberations as well as how they conducted themselves in open court that they're a very serious, meticulous group.

Remember, and I happen to think not only are they well into their deliberations, I also happen to think they have a jury foreman, I have to think they have concluded how they're going to go through the evidence, because remember, part of the entire process is, how do we decide how are going to decide? They have got to figure out, are they can just simply going to take a vote, a straw poll, are they going through the evidence, are they going to take a, you know, a list of the inventory of what that evidence is and figure out what they're going to do? So, I think there is a lot going on here.

KING: And Susan, from your perspective, how much does the psychology of a jury change, if you will, when they go from publicly, they're sitting there during the trial, and they're listening, they're taking notes or whatever, and now this is theirs. They are opt and private. They're driving the process now. How different do they change as a group in their interactions?

CONSTANTINE: Well, that's called group deliberations, because actually when they're individuals, they think differently than they do when they're in a group. So, it is going to play great part because this is the first time now that they have been able to get within their group and talk about what their feelings, what their thoughts about the case. They haven't been able to do that before.

But what's more important, too, this is really how they communicate and their personality styles. Because those are to tend to be more extroverted tend to be more agreeable. So, what we are looking at is who would be person, with this poor person, I think the ones that is in her late 60. I think she wants to. She is going to be the anchor of this group. So behind closed doors, this is what's happening.

KING: And so, Holly Hughes is also with us. She's a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.

So Holly, you have worked both sides of this. I want you to listen here to this sound. This is John Guy and the prosecution's rebuttal. And remember, the jury is now deliberation, what if they heard last? They heard both closing arguments. They heard the instructions from the judge. Let's listen to John Guy here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GUY, ASSISTANT STATE PROSECUTOR: Let's start at the 7 -Eleven where that child had every right to be where he was. That child had every right to do what he was doing, walking home. That child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him, first in his car and then on foot. And did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man? Did Trayvon Martin not also have that right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So, Holly, help us understand here. Obviously, the prosecution has a fallback strategy of having some charge that could involve child abuse also get them a conviction. Child, child, child, Trayvon Martin was 17-years-old, effective there or overdone?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. What you're doing, as a trial lawyer, you don't just want to talk about facts in evidence, John. You want to connect with that jury, so you want to talk about universal truths. You want to use themes. And what John Guy is doing, and very subtly here, is talking about as Americans, we are all free to just walk down the street without being accosted. We are all free to take a stand and confront somebody who might be stalking us. So I thought it was very effective because he wasn't in your face about it, but it was subtle.

KING: I'm going to ask all of our panel to stand by. I want to turn things over from Holly to Don Lemon, our anchor and correspondent. He is in Sanford, Florida and he now has a special guess, someone who emerged very early as a leading public face in this trial, someone who has been very influential in the public debate it.

Don, Benjamin Crump, take it away.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now, thank you very much, John King.

And I think it's appropriate that we have Benjamin Crump on to respond because we just had an hour of Mark O'Mara and much of it he spoke about Benjamin Crump and basically Benjamin Crump joins me now.

Thank you so much for joining us. And Benjamin Crump, of course, is the Martin family attorney.

First of all, before we get into that, how is the family doing right now?

BENJAMIN CRUMP, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: They are very emotional. It's been a long journey to justice, and now that they are on the eve of getting a verdict in the matter. You would imagine their emotions are overwhelming.

LEMON: Specifically the mother. Let's talk about Sybrina Fulton. Sometimes she had to walk out of the courtroom when they showed pictures of her son and yesterday during closing, same thing. Why was that?

CRUMP: Well Don, we were sitting in court and they start a show of photographs of her baby boy. Because to us this is only a case, but that's still her child, her youngest son, and there is a bond between a mother and son that everybody articulates as something so close. And so she was overcome with emotion, and we went to the attorney commons room and her and I talked, and she let out all her emotions and grief, and then she read the bible and she looked at me, Don, and she said, attorney crump, we're going to be OK. And I thought that was really interesting, because she was confident in me as the attorney rather than me being confident in her.

LEMON: So she feels confident in you?

CRUMP: She feels confident in me, she has faith, and she has her greatest faith confident with the jury as a higher court.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about the interview than ran on CNN last hour with our Martin Savidge and with Mark 'Mara who is the defense attorney for George Zimmerman basically saying that ran ginned up a lot of this racial animosity and a lot of the animosity against George Zimmerman. Let's listen in and then we will talk.

CRUMP: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you think that George Zimmerman would have even been charged had Ben Crump not been pulled into this?

MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. Ben Crump was someone like him, because had Ben Crump not got involved in the case, maybe for some good reasons to begin with. If he believed there was something here that was being swept under the rug, then get on into it. I'm very OK with that.

SAVIDGE: But you didn't quite say it that way. You made it sound like if not for Ben Crump, George Zimmerman would be free right now and we would not be in a trial.

O'MARA: That's correct. I think it was a made-up story for purposes that had nothing to do with George Zimmerman and that they have victimized him and they complained about Trayvon Martin being victimized, George Zimmerman was victimized by a publicity campaign to smear him, by calling him a racist when he wasn't and a murderer when he wasn't.

SAVIDGE: So Angela Cory and the governor and all who had a hand in bringing on this prosecution, they were all manipulated by Ben Crump?

O'MARA: I don't know that it was Ben Crump doing all the manipulation, but I'm very surprised that the prosecution team decided not to take this to a grand jury when one was sitting and panel are ready to take on the case as the state of Florida versus George Zimmerman and determine whether or not there was enough evidence and enough information to charge him with any crime. Rather than do that, which was the default position that could have happen, they decide have a press conference, pray with the victim's family, and announce second or third-degree murder charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So we may not be here if it wasn't for you.

CRUMP: Well, I think respectfully to attorney O'Mara, they seem to just disregard the fact that you have Trayvon Martin, who was unarmed walking home from the store when he was profiled and pursued and followed by his client, for whatever reason. We will never know.

I don't know if George Zimmerman is a racist or not, but he profiled Trayvon Martin for something, whether the way he looked or his ethnicity. We will never know. But I know he got out of his car. He made the decision to pursue Trayvon Martin. We have objective evidence.

So if this was your child, would you just say, OK, police, tell me. I'm not going to arrest a killer on my unarmed son. This is disturbing to many people, and that's why the whole world so watching this case, because you cannot have people kill unarmed teenagers walking home legally whether they're black, white, brown or gray and say, it's OK, we're not going to arrest you.

LEMON: Did Trayvon Martin say he wasn't going to pursue this? Did they say it?

(CROSSTALK)

CRUMP: No, he called me. And you know, it is so interesting, you asked hem Don. When Mr. Martin first called me, I said, hello, let me make sure I understand these facts. Your son had skittles and a can of iced tea and the neighborhood watch coordinator had a nine millimeter gun. I said, they are going to arrest them. You don't need me. I said don't worry about it. You don't need me. He called me back a couple days later, Don, and said, Mr. Crump, I told you they're not going to arrest him. And so, that's when we started saying, well, let's write a letter to the police and say, you know, we need to get public knowledge of this. They had a press conference and they affirmed they were not going to arrest him.

LEMON: Did anybody tell you they were not going to pursue this, anyone on the Martin side tell you they were not going to pursue this?

CRUMP: No, absolutely not. Do you think any parent would say we're not going to have to try to have the killer of our unarmed teenage son be held accountable of killing, shooting him in the heart?

LEMON: Basically, what Mar O'Mara is accusing you, and I've seen people accuse you of being a Charlton, of being a race favor, profiting on race and on the Martin family in this case.

CRUMP: You know, Don, when we got involved in this case, my law firm and I talked about it, and I do a lot of civil rights cases, and we have far too many cases where little black and brown boys are killed dead on the street and nobody says a word.

You know, Trayvon Martin got a lot of attention, Mark Leandros (ph) have got a lot of attention, other cases that got a lot of attention, every Trayvon martin, we have a hundred little black boys who get killed, nobody says a word. When we took this case, my law partner said, you know, Crump, we're probably going to spend a lot of money, we're going to spend a lot of time and resources, and it isn't going to happen. And you know what we said? We went to law school to try to make a difference in our community to try to have equality for everybody, and so we took the case thinking we were not going to profit a penny.

LEMON: In that same interview, Mark O'Mara said, listen, I understand about the plight of young black men. I understand that, and I would go and put my arm around the other side and help them because I prosecute cases like that, and I defend cases like that, but take your crosshairs off of George Zimmerman. He's not the one. He's not a racist. He didn't profile anyone. He is the victim in this particular case.

CRUMP: Well, you know, it's really interesting, because the state of Florida did not charge George Zimmerman with racially profiling Trayvon Martin. They charged him with criminally profiling Trayvon Martin. It was attorney O'Mara and his team who decided to interject race into the trial. And as you remember, attorney John Guy said they consciously made the decision, not to put race in this trial because it's not about black and white, it's about right and wrong.

And so, it is somewhat offensive when you think about personal attacked. I have never personally attack attorney O'Mara or any of the lawyers in this matter. I understand lawyers, we have to be zealous advocates for our clients. And I want to believe that, you know, we fought to get Trayvon Martin's killer arrested so he can be brought to a court of law to face the evidence against him for killing an unarmed teenage child. And many Americans, over 2 million people, signed petitions that say that the killer of an unarmed child should at least be arrested.

LEMON: Hold that thought, because I want that to be my last question, but I want to talk to you about self-defense and Stand Your Ground in Florida. What would you do about that?

CRUMP: Well, obviously, I don't agree with the stand your ground law. I think there was nothing wrong with our self-defense laws. It's well seated. For 200 years it was working just fine. Stand Your Ground encourages vigilantism. It encourages people to take the law into their own hands, and that's not good for anybody. It's too subjective, you know.

I don't know if there is anything Trayvon Martin could have said if the facts were reversed and he profiled and pursued and shot an unarmed George Zimmerman. He could have said stand your ground, self- defense, anything he wanted. He would have been arrested hour one, minute one, second one, and I believe his attorney John Guy said, what would your verdict be then?

LEMON: It is many in the public's perception and many legal watchers' perception that the prosecution did not do a great job in presenting their case. They did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you agree with that? Are you happy with the case the prosecution put on?

CRUMP: I think the jury will decide this case. I think the prosecution brought it all together at the end. They do certain things strategically. And what one lawyer strategy is may be different from another lawyers' different styles, but I think Bernie De La Rionda and attorney John Guy, their summation was very effective. They tied it all together. They pointed out very important things about this gun, this black gun and the inside holster not right to the side of him but kind of to his back. How in the world would Trayvon Martin ever see that where all the witnesses said it was very dark? We saw the pictures of how dark it was that night. He wasn't reaching for a gun. He didn't even see a gun, so why would his killer say that?

LEMON: What do you make of people talking about the possibility of violence in Florida and other places if he is acquitted, if George Zimmerman is acquitted?

CRUMP: Well, I think you should be asking that question in reverse, if he's convicted, because we have a pattern of showing that all Trayvon Martin supporters in rallies by the thousands all over the country have been very non-violent. There has not been one single act of violence in any of these rallies when you have 30, 40,000 people expressing their freedom of expression. So, I worry about when he is convicted, what are the George Zimmerman supporters going to do?

LEMON: Hey, but there's been threats on social media. That doesn't concern you?

CRUMP: Man, how many threats Tracy and Sybrina got? We just don't cry about like they choose to do all the time.

LEMON: Yes. So, do you -- what will happen, what do you think will happen or will you be OK if he is acquitted? Do you think we he will be acquitted?

CRUMP: Well, I think the parents will be heartbroken. They don't want the killer of their unarmed child to not be held accountable. They don't want his death to be in vain. They will truly be heartbroken because they know their son had every right to walk home from that store and not be profiled or followed for whatever reason --

LEMON: But will you accept that verdict?

CRUMP: We always said we will accept the rule of law. The Martin family has asked everybody to be peaceful. From day one they asked for peaceful justice, and nothing has changed. In fact, they have said they want everybody to follow their example. They have been very dignified, very graceful, and they want everybody to accept the rule of law. If they can accept it, everybody can accept it, and they don't want people to do what they believe the killer of their unarmed son did and try to take the law into his own hands.

LEMON: Benjamin Crump, thank you very much.

CRUMP: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate you coming over and speaking to us. I know you want to get back into the courtroom as we're waiting.

CRUMP: Yes, sir.

LEMON: Thank you very much. John King, back to you.

KING: Fascinating interview, Don. There's hustle getting Mr. Crump to sit down with you as we continue to watch the jury deliberations. And you just heard some of it there. Sometimes it's been right out in the open, but often, other times often an undercurrent.

The rule of race in this trial, when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I'm John King. You're watching our special CNN coverage of the verdict watch in the George Zimmerman trial. And while the jury weighs his guilt or innocence, one thing prosecutors want the jury to think about, they want them to think that Zimmerman was profiling, Trayvon Martin. Listen to this from the prosecution's closing argument.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, STATE PROSECUTOR: What started this? Assumptions, incorrect assumptions on the part of one individual. Again, that's the last photograph we have of Trayvon Martin. This innocent, 17-year-old kid was profiled as a criminal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, listen here to the Zimmerman defense attorney, mark O'Mara, in his closing argument.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'MARA: I also brought into evidence but didn't show you yet, this whole pile of police reports of what other things happened in the past year at retreat view area. They're there. I could have brought in Ms. Rumpf (ph), like it state there, other people who we just agree they were going to evidence and you have those. And they will show you a lot of long calls, a lot of burglaries, the home invasion that Ms. Burtelu (ph) suffered through. And I think it will show you in that community there is a rash of people burglarizing homes. And you know what else it's going to show you? It I going to show you there are a lot of people who were arrested for it, the only people found and arrested were young, black males. What did he do? Stayed on the phone, cursed -- yes, definitely cursed -- he cursed toward those people, maybe including Trayvon Martin, by the way, at least him, maybe, because he did match the description, unfortunately, and that's just maybe happenstance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's dig deeper now into the role of profiling in this case. Legal analyst Sunny Hostin is with us, also a criminal defense attorney, Danny Cevallos.

So Sunny, in the prosecution closing, they say criminal profiling, but wasn't he really say without a wink even racial profiling? SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I don't think so. I mean, certainly he couldn't say racial profiling because the judge ruled that was inadmissible. But you can profile someone as a criminal. There are people that are white, for example, that were part of the mafia, and you could profile that group of people. You could profile people that were part of Asian gangs as criminals. I don't know that race is necessarily the end-all be-all here. I think it was the fact that he lumped Trayvon Martin with other people that he believed were criminal. They happened to be African-American males. And that assumption was wrong, because Trayvon Martin wasn't burglarizing any homes, he was there lawfully and he was there to see his father, and he was walking home.

And so, I think that is the very definition of profiling. You look at someone and you make an assumption by their appearance as to what you believe they are doing. And that's a tool that's used by law enforcement all the time, but George Zimmerman wasn't a member of law enforcement.

So I have been sort of surprised that everyone has said this case is all about race. This case may be about the assumptions that George Zimmerman made based on crime, but I don't know that it's about racial profiling.

KING: Danny, do you agree with that? I mean, you heard Mark O'Mara there essentially saying, in his view, if you look at other police reports, if you look at other cases, that in his view George Zimmerman had the right to be suspicious.

DANNY CEVALLOS, COFOUNDER, CEVALLOS & WONG, LLP: Well, it's really interesting, because if the prosecution had no interest in making it about race, why did judge Debra Nelson rule they couldn't use the terms racial profiling. If she had not so ruled, her honor, I have to have wondered would prosecution have inserted race into the case to help them because once you remove race, the word profiling, as Sunny said, is a technique used by law enforcement every single day. If George Zimmerman had been wearing a badge then observing a young male in his neighborhood he didn't recognize might be considered just good police work. After all, police reports are full of profiling young male, standing on corner, hand to hand transactions. We know hand to hand transactions can be innocent, but in their experience, they are profiling oftentimes in a high crime neighborhood, it is not. I don't know when profiling became a bad word, because once we removed the race, I think police used profiling all the time in law enforcement, and it's considered good police work.

KING: Sunny and Danny will stay with us as we wait now. The jury has been deliberating more than nine hours, and during this period, how are the key players n this case handling the waiting? Mark O'Mara says he can't eat or sleep.

Up next, my colleague, Don Lemon, right at Zimmerman and his family today. You'll hear what happened behind the scenes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: As the jury deliberates in the George Zimmerman case, it's in the tenth hour now, those deliberations. Americans are watching to see just how the community will react to a verdict. Police in Sanford, Florida, and Hillsboro County have been calling for calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CECIL SMITH, SANFORD, FLORIDA POLICE: As we await this verdict, we would like to remind everyone that the city of Sanford has been a peaceful location since that time 17 months ago. And it remains a peaceful location.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Don Lemon is on the ground there in Sanford, Florida.

Don, what have you seen? Obviously, we have the public statements right there. What's your sense as far as the depth of the preparations by police?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I've just mostly been spending time here by the courthouse, and it's really tight security here, and they have cordoned off just a special area here for demonstrators. You know, we're going back-and-forth here about calling protesters or demonstrators.

These are demonstrators. And it's really just a handful, and there are more media out here than demonstrators, and it's been very peaceful. As you heard in the interview I just did with the Martin family attorney, Benjamin Crump, all -- most, if not all, of the demonstrations for the Trayvon Martin side of this story have been peaceful demonstrations.

And that's what America is about. You are allowed to show your voice and to demonstrate. Now, no one should be violent. There should not be violence of any sort in any particular instance, and I think that's what police are warning about.

But, listen, I said something on the air yesterday that many people, John, took out of context, including some of my own colleagues and misquoted me.

John, never did I once say -- mention race or racism or black or white when it comes to police warning people about being -- about riotous behavior. What I said was, it struck me as odd that police are talking about that because it's the policeman's job, it's law enforcement's job to protect and serve, and to be prepared for situations of violence just like they are for sporting events, for concerts, for any type of event they have to be prepared for.

So, it strikes many people as odd that no matter how the verdict plays out, whether it's guilt or innocent, that black people, or white people might riot. And it strikes people as those barbarians can't control themselves, whether they're black or white. But most people think they were talking about black people here, and that's the difference. And watching the reaction on social media, and watching some of the blog speak about most people put it as a black-white issue, and in some way, it's kind of profiling people who think that way.

So -- anyway, back to the subject at hand. Let's talk about what happened inside the courtroom, and I want to talk about what the prosecution, what the defense is going through right now.

You heard Mark O'Mara -- I want to bring in Jeff Gold now, who is a prosecutor and an attorney. Mark O'Mara says he can't eat, he can't sleep, he's lost weight. I saw him up close and personal today. He is very skinny.

Also, other members of the team as well, the defense team, can't sleep, can't eat, also very thin. Don West as well when I saw him today.

What are they dealing with? They didn't seem to be as -- in as good a mood as the prosecution when I bumped into them in the elevator today.

JEFFREY GOLD, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Today. And I think yesterday, they were in a better mood. First of all, once the jury is out, there is nothing you can do. So you're just waiting. In most situations, you go back to your office, start to do some of the work you've been avoiding, just try to do something else. That's one thing.

I thought the defense was almost overconfident in its closing. I've never seen a defense -- and they said they would piss off defense attorneys, well, they probably did, because not only did they say it's the state's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but they said they could prove that he's innocent. That's an unusual task to take on and Mr. O'Mara is probably losing sleep, that may have bitten off a little bit more than he needed to chew.

LEMON: Do you think the prosecution was overconfident or the defense?

GOLD: No, no, the defense. I think in saying -- normally, all the defense attorney ever has to say is it's the state's burden to prove my client guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and in this case they have to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt, and be quiet. He went further and said, I can actually prove my client is innocent, and he knew when he did that, he was taking on a big challenge. He may lose it.

LEMON: Yes. I thought it was interesting the difference between the two teams, right? When I ran into the prosecution on the elevator, they were nice, they invited us into the elevator, the defense didn't do that, and you can't -- in a courtroom, you cannot interview anyone. If they talk to you, you can have a nice conversation with them, which I did, and it was very jovial.

And then I ran into George Zimmerman as well and his family, and he stands -- I don't know if you knew or not -- on the top floor of this courthouse and he looks out onto the courtyard here, onto the media, onto the protesters, the demonstrators, and he is watching at point what goes on and what's happening here.

GOLD: Well, a circus to some degree all around him.

LEMON: Yes.

GOLD: I mean, you know, he's the lead figure.

Prosecutors had a very, very, very weak case. If they lose, nobody is going to say anything, because really, frankly, everybody thinks they're going to lose. Now, you know what? All they can do is win.

LEMON: Yes.

GOLD: So the pressure is off of them. They've done the best they can do. If they win this case, that will be a feather in their cap that they didn't think they would expect. The defense, on the other hand, they have the other pressure, the pressure that everybody thinks there is a reasonable doubt. Now, if they lose it, did they lose it?

LEMON: Yes.

Thank you very much, Jeff Gold.

John King, back to you.

KING: Don, we'll be back with you in a little bit as well.

Now, a conviction, if it comes in this case, that could mean decades in prison for George Zimmerman. CNN talks to one ex-con about what life behind bars would be like. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: You're looking at live pictures of the courthouse in Sanford, Florida. That's where the jury is deliberating now in their tenth hour, trying to agree on George Zimmerman's fate.

George Zimmerman has been a prisoner from his home since shortly he was charged with second degree murder in the death of Trayvon Martin. His lawyers say it's been a source of considerable stress. But a former inmate tells Dave Mattingly it's nothing, nothing, compared to life behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's been locked up before. But days spent on the county jail after his arrest is nothing compared to what would be waiting for George Zimmerman in prison.

LARRY LAWTON, FORMER CONVICT & AUTHOR: I don't got George Zimmerman lasting six months.

MATTINGLY: Larry Lawton is an ex-con and author who has some grim predictions for George Zimmerman if he is convicted. A wannabe cop who killed an unarmed black teenager guarantees trouble. LAWTON: There is a whole litany of people that are going to either want a piece of George by either extorting him or protecting him. And that's just one case.

You know, George Zimmerman's first six months to two years is survival.

MATTINGLY: Zimmerman would have to get tough and quickly. His attorneys attribute his 120-pound weight gain to troubles he's already having dealing with stress.

ADAM POLLOCK, TRAINER FOR GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: He's still learning how to punch.

MATTINGLY: Zimmerman's own trainer testified he is no fighter.

(on camera): From one day, what is your best advice to him?

LAWTON: Well, communications with the outside world will keep him as sane as he can, because he will get support from various groups and various people. So, hopefully, that will keep him mentally. I think the prison system will protect him for as much as they can, for as long as they can.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): These pictures come from the Florida Corrections Web site. Protective custody means alone in a cell like this for 23 hours a day. The isolation can take its own toll.

Lawton was a jewel theft who spent 12 years in federal prison, three of them in isolation.

(on camera): What is that going to do to somebody like George Zimmerman?

LAWTON: It's the hardest in the world. You want to go crazy. I have watched men kill themselves, hang themselves.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): And if convicted, Zimmerman would be looking at decades, maybe a lifetime behind bars dealing with a daily possibility of violence.

(on camera): Is he ever going to be able to relax, not stop watching his back?

LAWTON: Great question. And I'll tell you something, I was in prison for 11 straight years. I ever, never slept past 6:00 in the morning. When the doors opened I got up and my boots on and my sneakers on. Where do you think they are going to get you in prison? When you put your guard down, when you're sleeping.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): A warning to Zimmerman about a life he is desperately trying to avoid.

David Mattingly, CNN, Sanford, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE) KING: Up next, it's the center of this entire case, and the key point jurors are now considering, self defense. So, what's the future of Florida "Stand Your Ground" law after this verdict? Our experts weigh in, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: The jury now back deliberating hour 10, deciding the fate of George Zimmerman. They have three options before them: guilty of second-degree murder, guilty of manslaughter or not guilty. But the future of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, the controversial law at the start of this trial, is just as uncertain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GUY, PROSECUTOR: He didn't want to know about stand your ground. Didn't want the police to know he knew about it. Stand your ground, what's that?

And let me suggest to you, in the end, this case is not about standing your ground, it's about staying in your car like he was taught to do, like he was supposed to do, and he can't now cloak himself with the noble cause of a neighborhood watch coordinator violate its cornerstone principle and expect you to absolve him of his guilt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Back now with our legal panel. Trent Copeland is a criminal defense attorney, Paul Callan, a CNN legal analyst, Susan Constantine, a jury consultant and Holly Hughes, a criminal defense attorney, the former prosecutor.

Trent, seventeen other states have similar laws. No matter the outcome here, does the controversy surrounding this trial spell an end in your view, or will it simply set the precedent of going back and tinkering with some of them.

TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: John, I don't think there is any question that the fact this law has now taken center stage in this case really is going to invoke, I think, continued debate. Remember, the law went into effect was signed by Governor Jeb Bush back in 2005.

And it's given us some fairly consistent results. Remember, the statistics tell us that 73 percent of the time, in 73 percent of the time where there is a killing of an African-American, the person walks free in Florida. Fifty-nine percent of the time by contrast, if the killing is a white person, 59 percent of the time, the person walks free.

So there's some disparate distinctions in this. It seems to be that if you kill a black person, their life seems to be less valuable than if you kill a white person. So look, I don't know what the facts were in each of those cases, but those are what the statistics tell us. So it's very difficult for those of us criticizing this law, it's very difficult for those to look at the law and perceive the law has given us fair treatment.

Look, the problem, I think, though, with the prosecution is that although they want to criticize the "Stand Your Ground" law, the fact of the matter is, it really isn't a part of the case. Remember, George Zimmerman had the right to have the "Stand Your Ground" hearing and he didn't have it. He refused to have it and he waived that hearing.

So what he's standing on is the basic presumption of self-defense, but we all know "Stand Your Ground" is a fertile ground in Florida and these jurors will have to decide the fate of George Zimmerman based on stand your ground as well as the common principles, the historic principles of self-defense.

KING: Paul, in your view, self-defense is a historical defense, if you will, in a courtroom, but the way this "Stand Your Ground" law is written, does it steal the justice in the prosecution's favor, if you will?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, there's been a lot of focus on "Stand Your Ground" as a result of this case. But, frankly, I don't think it even applies in this case. The "Stand Your Ground" principle is this. In most places, most places in the United States, if somebody breaks into your house and tries to do harm to you, you have the right to use deadly physical force against them, if necessary.

When you're outside of your home, if you have the ability to get away to escape in safety, you have to try to escape first before you can use force against somebody else. That's the law because the law wants to preserve life.

And then along comes "Stand Your Ground". It arises actually of the Old West, it started in Colorado. A man can stand his ground and fight back, he doesn't have to retreat.

But that's not involved in this case because frankly this is just a standard self-defense case, because by the time the encounter between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman occurs, nobody's saying that Zimmerman could have escaped in reasonable safety. That's not part of the defense. The defense is who's the initial aggressor and a lot of other concepts that are different.

And the second reason why it's not involved is that in Florida, they got this strange law where you have a hearing in advance of trial and a judge can hear the case and give you immunity and say we're not even going to let a jury look at this.

In most other states, no such hearing exists, no "Stand Your Ground" hearing exists, in other cases it would have been gone to trial and you wouldn't have the controversy that started here.

This is a garden variety standard self-defense case.

KING: Holly, do you agree with that in the sense as Paul says he calls it a garden variety self-defense case in the court of law. But this case if playing on a lot of public opinion. Will there be pressure from the bar association from the defense bar, from anybody in Florida to say let's look at this law again?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think so. And it is for the very reasons that my learned co-counsel has already mentioned both Trent and Paul pointed out, they did not avail themselves of the stand your ground when this first happened, when the shooting happened back in February a year ago, we all heard, oh, it's stand your ground. That's what he's going to rest on, but he did not request that hearing. Paul made reference to it and in Georgia, we call it an immunity hearing and you go before the court and essentially ask the court, does this state even have a right to charge me, throw this whole thing out, say that there's not even probable cause to arrest me because I had every right to stand my ground to defend myself?

So, since that has gone by the wayside and they've gone with your standard self-defense, that's what everybody's focused on now and I think stand your ground has sort of lost its footing and, again, everybody's mentioned it, this goes all the way back to the foundation of our country. We used to call it the Castle Doctrine -- a man's home is his castle.

You have every right to defend yours and what is yours, and your life. So, then, we see this evolution again, if you are out in public do you still have a duty to retreat but all the debates have been lost now that self-defense in a truest sense has taken front and center.

KING: I'm going to ask our group to all stand by. The Zimmerman jury is an all-female panel, in the tenth hour of deliberations while we don't know their identities, we know a lot about their backgrounds and what has caught their attention in court. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Keeping our eye on the courthouse in Florida but some other news now.

June 30th was the deadliest day for U.S. firefighters since 1911, 19 men perished battling a wildfire, here we go, in Yarnell, Arizona.

In the aftermath, 2008 CNN Hero Vicky Minor flew there to do what she's been doing for 14 years, providing support to families of fallen firefighters.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nineteen men, 19 husbands, fathers, sons, friends and brothers -- 19 firefighters, part of an elite 2,000-member group known as Hotshots.

VICKIE MINOR, CNN HERO: These are not the guys in the red trucks that go out and fight fire. Wildland firefighters fight fires that turns and chases them and runs after them.

COOPER: With just over 100 crews in the United States Hotshots are part of a close-knit community of wildland firefighters. MINOR: It's hard enough to lose one, but when you lose 19 that are tight, it's a domino effect. There's a hole here.

COOPER: 2008 CNN Hero Vickie Minor flew to Prescott, Arizona, to offer her support. Since 1999 Vickie and her team have helped thousands of firefighters and their families with emergency funds, medical support, travel, and lodging.

MINOR: We help the families of the injured get to the bedsides. We do long-term recovery with them.

COOPER: Her group has provided millions of dollars are to help, but at the end of the day Vickie says money can only accomplish so much.

MINOR: The families miss the smell of smoky yellow shirts. We keep them connected back to this wildland fire family. I love these wildland firefighters. I will do anything to protect them and help them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Up next the jury in Sanford now in its tenth hour of deliberations. Is this a good or bad sign for George Zimmerman?

Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)