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Zimmerman Jury Deliberations Continue; Jurors Asked Question About Manslaughter

Aired July 13, 2013 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: It is the top of the hour, everyone. I'm Don Lemon live in Sanford, Florida. Outside the Seminole County courthouse where the George Zimmerman trial is going on.

We've heard from the jurors after 13 1/2 hours of deliberating, about nine hours of deliberating today. What we've heard from the jurors -- from the judge, the judge came in and said the jurors have a question regarding manslaughter. And they needed to address that question. She called for a recess of about 30 minutes to figure out exactly what was going on.

They came back after 30 minutes with the attorney. They talked about case law, exactly what they could address, what kinds of questions they could address with the jurors. Both sides agree the prosecution and the defense along with the attorney, that they would present the jury with a handwritten note that was written by the judge saying that the court could not address general questions regarding manslaughter, but they could address specific questions for a specific question if the jurors did have that regarding manslaughter.

So what the judge said, just to give her 15 minutes so the deputy and the court and the court officer could present that to the jury and the jury could get back to them and she would come back in 15 minutes or so and bring that to the court and then they would decide what to do after that. She also said the jury has ordered dinner and she said to both attorneys, both sides, that you can if you want to take an hour but give her 15 minutes.

So, we have significant developments here -- a significant development in the George Zimmerman murder trial. Leading many to wonder if the jurors, if the jury here has moved beyond second-degree murder and now they're focusing on manslaughter. That's according to prosecutors. That's according to court watchers and people who have been doing this much longer than I have.

Paul Callan is an analyst here, a legal analyst. Jeffrey Toobin is a legal analyst as well. Sunny Hostin is our legal analyst. And they are all joining us here.

Holly Hughes is a former prosecutor. And Brian Kabateck is a former prosecutor. I am well represented here by a number of people who know a lot. And also Faith Jenkins joins me as well. I want to get back to our Jeffrey Toobin because he has been watching this. Again, specifically, no Jeffrey Toobin.

All right. Sunny is my right-hand lady here. She has been doing this.

So, Sunny, as you listened to the judge and again very methodical. You said this is important because this may be a point of appeal so that the judge has to be very careful. Everyone has to be very careful.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And you see this all the time. Jury instructions being questioned and cases reversed because of improper jury instructions. So this judge is very smart. She understands that that's a possibility and she is being very careful and getting, if you noticed, the agreement of both the defense and the prosecution.

And so, I think that's important. And she was right in determining that really that question, you know, we all have these jury instructions in front of us. That question was not very specific. I mean, there is an entire half a page about manslaughter.

What is the clarification that they need? I suspect that they are going to ask a question about negligence because that is part of the jury instructions on manslaughter. Maybe they are concerned with what is mere negligence, what is negligence, what is intent?

LEMON: This is what you said -- each of us has a duty to act responsibly toward others. If there is a violation of that duty without any conscious intent to harm, that violations negligence.

HOSTIN: Right.

LEMON: What does that mean?

HOSTIN: What it means is if you're just merely negligent and you didn't mean to do anything, if there was some sort of accident, then you can't be found guilty of manslaughter. But if you intended to do harm to someone then you are guilty of manslaughter. It's not the type of intent that you see in second-degree murder where you have to have the depraved mind, you have to have ill will.

LEMON: So, listen, can the defense say the gun accidently -- they can't say the gun accidently went off?

HOSTIN: No, they cannot. They can't make any other arguments to the jury. They've made their arguments.

One thing that we were talking about after closing arguments, if you noticed, the defense didn't take on manslaughter. They really didn't talk much about it. They certainly talked a lot about second-degree murder because, of course that is the charge that exposed their client to life in prison without the possibility of parole. They kind of left out there no theory of defense to manslaughter. That may be coming back to bite them now.

LEMON: OK. Holly Hughes, you've been watching this. Have you ever been presented with anything like this in court?

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, with the jury coming out with a question? Absolutely. It happens all the time, especially when you have something like this that is so powerfully charged, but it is a largely circumstantial evidence case.

You've got the defendant's statements and he gave multiple, Don. We heard them come in through the prosecution witnesses, the officers that took them, but other than George Zimmerman's statements you kind of have to weave together all the other evidence that the prosecution presented. The 911 calls, what was heard on those.

The phone call with Rachel Jeantel. We've got to look at the time lines and weave it in with the forensics. We know where the keys and cell phone were found on the ground, we know where George Zimmerman's flashlight was found on the ground. But you've got to put all those things together to figure out what happened, so it's largely circumstantial. You don't have somebody out there with a video phone recording the whole thing.

So this is not unusual. The jury is trying to pick through it one thing at a time. Again, I think they probably have already gone through the discussion on second-degree murder. Now, that's not to say some of those jurors don't want to convict on that charge. But that's to say they fully fleshed it out, looked at the elements, and now at least one of them wants to talk about manslaughter.

Is it? Is it not? So, this is a perfectly acceptable -- it tells me the jury is really taking it seriously and working hard. Just like -- I mean, Sunny, every one of us who has done this for a long time who has stood in the courtroom and made these arguments knows, 95 percent of appeals will come back on a jury issue, whether it's a problem with the jury instructions, Don, or whether it's a problem with jury selection.

LEMON: Right. Yes.

HUGHES: Ninety-five percent of cases that come back, it's a problem with the jury so they're just doing what they need to do to make sure in any event this does not get reversed if there is a conviction.

LEMON: Yes. And the breaking news as you saw earlier on CNN is not that the jury ordered dinner. The breaking news is that the jury has some question about manslaughter. They need some clarification about a manslaughter charge so that they can move forward.

Now, in that, the judge did announce that the jury has ordered dinner and said that the attorneys will get a break for about an hour shortly. But she asked for 15 minutes to see how the jury responded to the note that she sent the jury.

Again, I want to reset here and tell our viewers exactly what happened. So just over an hour ago, the judge in this George Zimmerman trial came out and said that the jury had a question about manslaughter. They needed some clarification.

Everyone convened including the attorneys, George Zimmerman, his family. All of the court watchers, all of the reporters came in and then she spoke to the attorneys and she said, I want to find out specifically what they need and give me 30 minutes. It took a 30- minute recess. She came back into the court to find out, found out what they needed.

And then met -- there you see them earlier. Every one of the attorneys approached the bench. And then they after that all talked about some case law, exactly what they need, what have you, and then they decided after this that they needed to tell the jury that they couldn't talk in general about manslaughter but they could talk specifics. So, if they had specific questions or a specific question about manslaughter, that the court would address that.

They gave that to the jurors, sent it with the court deputy about ten minutes ago and are just waiting to hear back from the jury. So, give us a few minutes here. We want to get to a quick break. We'll bring you to the courtroom and go back inside live right after this.

It's a significant development in the George Zimmerman case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right. That is the seal inside the Seminole County courthouse. You'll be looking at that in a moment. There it is on your screen.

And we're showing you that because there has been a significant development. Just about 15 minutes ago the judge said she needed to take a note, get a note to the jury to see where they -- how they were going to respond to her note about a clarification.

So here is where we are. Late this evening the jury sent a note to the judge saying that they needed a clarification about regarding manslaughter. And she got back with them saying they needed to be more specific about what they needed, what their question was. The court could not speak in general about manslaughter.

Everyone agreed. She sent a note to them about 15 minutes ago. We're waiting for her to come back out and see how they're going to respond.

We also heard from her just about 15 minutes ago that the jury had ordered dinner and she was going to give everyone a break for about an hour and then update us on the other side. But we will get an update here very shortly taking you back live inside the courtroom.

I have my two legal buddies sitting right here to help us through all of this and this is a significant development. Mark NeJame is here and also Sunny Hostin a former prosecutor.

Thank you so much for helping us through this.

Just on cue as Sunny said this, just own an hour ago, I am surprised, I find it a bit odd that this jury has not asked any questions yet because this is the point where the jury should be ask some sort of question and then boom. There it happened. And it's now over manslaughter. This says to you as a former prosecutor?

HOSTIN: This says to me that they are going chronologically as most juries do --

LEMON: Through the jury instructions.

HOSTIN: Through the jury instructions -- chronologically through the verdict form, and they may indeed be past second-degree murder and also justifiable homicide of second-degree murder and on to manslaughter.

That tells me maybe they are not buying self-defense in this case. It's a possibility.

LEMON: Mr. NeJame?

MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm going to go buy a lottery ticket with sunny afterward. She has been the closest predictor on times and everything else.

But, look. We're reading tea leaves. Technically, it could be a debate going on between manslaughter and second degree. It could be a debate going on between manslaughter and acquittal. It could be a debate going on with manslaughter and self-defense which would lead to an acquittal.

So we don't really know. It is logical that they've kicked second degree out. We've all thought that. That was, of course, not the strongest case for the state. We thought that it would -- I think it would be surprising if the jury came back with second degree for most of us, definitely for me.

And manslaughter has always been the issue. So I think they're focused on that, much like most observers are. This is a very thoughtful jury. What I am so impressed, just a quick aside, clearly, we are watching justice being served. It is really taking place before our eyes. A lot of people thought there was a lot of injustice that took place.

But as we've said so many times, justice is actually the process, not the conclusion. And we've got cameras in the courtroom. We've seen both sides picking this jury.

You know, whatever happens we know that these people haven't jumped to any conclusions. They've been writing notes. They've been taking their time. Their families are coming second to their civic duty and we can't ask for more than that.

So -- but I would be hesitant. I think they are a smart group of jurors and going through every bit of it.

LEMON: I want to talk about this. There is some -- we're going back and forth about this. The judge ruled that procurement and culpable negligence pronunciation of -- whatever that means, prog, shorthand -- legalese -- of the manslaughter statute doesn't apply to the case and she didn't include it to the jury instructions, instructions to the jury. She only changed manslaughter by act.

What does that mean? HOSTIN: Well, that is the thing. We've been showing on the screen sort of one of the traditional definitions of manslaughter.

Both lawyers -- both sets of lawyers sort of whittled down that definition of manslaughter and applied it to the facts in this case. And so, what we need to be guided by are the jury instructions because that is what is guiding the jury. If you look at the jury instructions, they're pretty succinct in that they have to prove two things.

One that Trayvon Martin is dead and two George Zimmerman committed not merely a negligent act but an intentional act. But I think what is interesting and I would love to hear Mark's understanding of it, they say that the state does not have to, you know, prove that George Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon Martin. Just that the act, itself, meaning the firing of the gun was intentional. That's how I read the jury instructions.

NEJAME: Yes. But then the challenge becomes that there's a defense that was reasonable. Because you have to take a couple of self- defense and did he act reasonably or not which I think is a major issue of course. You know, did he over react to the situation? And I think both sides, I'm surprised the state didn't hammer on manslaughter a bit more and I'm surprised the defense in its closing argument.

LEMON: Why?

NEJAME: Why? Because that is the logical -- that was the best case for them from the onset. You know, to show that George Zimmerman over reacted to the situation and that Trayvon Martin did not need to die.

It was a fist fight. He was irresponsible for taking the gun and that he was irresponsible by shooting him as quickly as he arguably did. That would be the state's case.

The defense on the other hand should have really hammered it home because we've said, manslaughter was likely where the jury was going to go if there was going to be a conviction. I think they needed to really educate the jurors as well as they did on homicide two as to the issue of manslaughter. Self-defense is an issue equal to manslaughter or second-degree murder. I'm not convinced that the jurors understand that it's equal. If they believe it was self- defense for murder 2, it's self-defense for manslaughter.

LEMON: Do you think that was because you heard Mark O'Mara in the end when they brought in manslaughter. He was incredulous. He said I can't believe this.

Do you think that was a strategy so they wouldn't go over this and is this part of a grander scheme by the prosecution?

HOSTIN: Yes.

No. And that was sort of surprising to me that the defense was sort of acting like it was so shocking that the prosecution would be asking for this lesser included. It's always asked for it. It is actually a mandatory lesser included. So with the prosecution asking for it the defense was -- the judge was going to instruct the jury and I would agree with Mark I was a bit surprised that the defense went into closing all or nothing. They argued second-degree murder and self- defense but they didn't really argue manslaughter.

Did they think their argument wasn't a strong argument for manslaughter? I'm not sure. They really needed to do that. Again, many people were saying, I have always said I thought there was enough evidence for second-degree murder. But --

LEMON: OK. We're going to pause here, we're going to pause because the judge is going to come back at any moment. I need to get to a break here.

Don't go anywhere. A significant development as we have been saying in the George Zimmerman Murder trial. The jury has some questions and the judge will be back and we'll find out exactly what is going on live inside that courtroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: All right. The immediate breaking news here on CNN is that the judge has instructed the jury and the attorneys to take a dinner break until 8:15, not exactly sure if they are going to work through dinner break. We haven't gotten any clarification on the jury question. The jury question.

She has invited them to take a dinner break until 8:15. She has invited them to take a dinner break until 8:15. There is no response from the jury yet. We're waiting to get a response from the jury.

But here is where we are at this hour -- in the evening here as you see, 4:23 Pacific Time here on CNN. They -- the jury came out a while ago and said they had a question regarding manslaughter.

The judge spoke with everyone involved, convened the court, and everyone came to an agreement, saying that they could not talk in general regarding manslaughter and they sent a note back to the jury saying if the jury had specific questions regarding manslaughter then they needed to send that to the court and the court would address that.

The judge asked for 15 minutes to try to figure out what the jury's response would be and apparently she has not heard from them because she has not gotten back. We have not heard. She said she would convene in 15 minutes. We haven't heard from her regarding that. But she did invite the jury and the attorneys I'm being told to take a dinner break until 8:15 Eastern Time. It is 7:24 Eastern Time now.

So that's where we are on this particular, at this particular moment in the George Zimmerman murder trial. This is a big development because anyone who has done this, at least they've been telling me, prosecutors, attorneys, defense, civil attorneys, what-have-you, will tell you it -- most jurors will go down the jury instructions point by point, and if they have reached a point where they are asking for manslaughter, then they are possibly -- they have possibly moved beyond the charges that are above that.

In this particular case the charges above that are second-degree murder and then also self-defense.

As you type away to your sources over here, Sunny Hostin, Mark NeJame, and also, do we have Paul in New York as well?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Still here.

LEMON: Paul Callan is in New York as well. And Holly Hughes and we also have Brian Kabateck and we have Faith Jenkins as well. Brian Kabateck is an L.A.-based attorney, and Faith Jenkins, a former prosecutor as well.

So, we have all of these legal minds helping us.

So, I'm going to go to you, Paul.

Paul, as you're sitting there, you're assessing this. You're not here but you have done this for a very long time. So, we haven't heard back from the jury but she is inviting them to take dinner at this point. Talk to me.

CALLAN: Well, two things. First, it was a good question, a good response to the question, which is, we need clarification. And the reason for that is these jury charges are carefully crafted by committees of lawyers exactly what the judge has to say to the jury about manslaughter. And if the judge is going to say something different, they're always afraid it is going to get reversed. So, now, they're saying -- now she is saying to the jury, please, re-ask your question. Maybe they won't even re-ask it and she won't have to deal with it.

But the second thing I think that is important and I was looking into the idea that Sunny had which is a good one, that they may be looking at this area that says it can't be negligence but when I look back at Zimmerman's own statement, Zimmerman indicates that he deliberately fired the fatal shot in self-defense so I don't see how the jury could be wrestling with this as a possible negligent act. I think they're having a problem just with this whole idea that the manslaughter statute is so vague it's hard to understand.

But one ray of hope in terms of the progress that they're making, and maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on the dinner question here, but this jury has been working all day long and it is a very, very hard work. And now we're getting to, you know, 7:30 at night. And they're not saying let's end it for the day. We're not even close. They're saying, order dinner. We're going to keep deliberating.

Now that says to me, this is a jury that's making progress, substantial progress toward a verdict. And I think in many respects the dinner question might be the most important one because it means they're in agreement on a lot of things in this case already and they're making substantial progress.

LEMON: Every head to my right is nodding here.

And, Faith Jenkins, you know, we spoke about -- listen, we don't want to profile anyone here, Faith Jenkins, but it has been said that these women would get it done. That these women would possibly be more organized than a group of men might be. Six organized women versus 12 angry men.

Faith? And they worked through lunch as well.

FAITH JENKINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. With an all female jury, so they're obviously a highly intelligent jury. We know this. And I agree with my colleagues Paul and Sunny here, when they're ordering dinner, it probably means they're closer to the end now than they were at the beginning because they want to continue working.

They have been sequestered from the beginning of this process. And they're obviously taking it seriously going through the statute and if the judge brought them out and just read the statute to them again completely that may not answer their question. So they're right to go back and ask them for specificity.

And I think they're probably going to ask about a specific element of manslaughter that they're struggling with. It may be the intent element. That state of mind that is not in the second-degree -- if it is in the second-degree charge but not in manslaughter. So, they may want further clarification on what the intent element is when you have manslaughter which is the intentional killing of another person.

Here, we obviously know that Trayvon Martin was killed so that intentional element act may be the question that they have about George Zimmerman's state of mind.

LEMON: All right. Guys, stand by. I am going to rely on the ladies here since we have an all women jury.

I'm going to go to Holly Hughes.

Holly, do you think this means progress if they are at the point they can order dinner? They worked through lunch.

HUGHES: Absolutely.

LEMON: More than 13 hours deliberating and still going at it?

HUGHES: Absolutely. This is hard work.

Remember that, as smart as these ladies are and as hard working as they are, you don't have six lawyers in the room. You don't have people who have been trained in this their entire career. So, for them to sit there and go through the elements and go through the burden of proof and who has it and what is an element and did the state do it -- this is extremely draining work.

Any one of the lawyers on the panel tonight will tell you trial work is just emotionally and physically draining because think about it. You are like this the entire time because you're trying to make sure your evidence gets in. Everything is done right. That's what these women are going through.

And if they have decided that they need to keep working and not go back to the hotel and give it a rest, that tells me they have made substantial and significant progress, Don.

Because they started this at 9:00 this morning. We're coming up on 7:30 at night. We're talking about almost 12 straight hours of nothing but sitting there, discussion, discussion, discussion. Intellectual and mental gymnastics. And yet these six women are saying, but you know what? Let's keep going. That tells me that the end is in sight. No matter what the end is or whichever side it turns out to favor, these ladies feel like it is worth it to keep working. That means substantial progress since 9:00 this morning.

LEMON: to the other lady here, another over achiever, former prosecutor, and mom who, you know, you had to take care of something with your son today.

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: I don't know how women can multi task better than any man that I know.

HOSTIN: I had to call him. He's at sleep away camp.

LEMON: Do you agree with the ladies here?

HOSTIN: You know, I do.

LEMON: Paul Callan who actually brought the point home.

HOSTIN: Yes, I do. I think it is significant that they decided to work through dinner and to order dinner. That tells me they may be pretty close to a resolution. And so that's interesting. I will say there have been all of these statistics about how women deliberate versus how men deliberate. Rather research about it. I don't like to get into that -

LEMON: Are we stereo typing here?

HOSTIN: I don't like to go into the stereotyping. That's why I'm a little bit loathe to bring it up but it is unusual to have an all female jury. A lot of research says women are a little more collaborative, a little more deliberative when they're together. That sometimes men get into the jury room and they come in and they take that vote and they say guilty or not guilty whereas women will go in and say, "Well I need to review all the evidence."

LEMON: Testosterone.

HOSTIN: Yes, you know, I need to review all the evidence and so I think there is definitely a different dynamic going on in this courtroom than we usually -- in the jury room than we usually see. LEMON: (INAUDIBLE).

MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Sunny, that sounds a lot like profiling to me.

HOSTIN: I am a little loathe to say it but there have been studies on female jurors.

LEMON: But here is the thing. We say we don't want to profile anyone. We don't want to stereotype anyone when it comes to the jury process. Isn't that what jury selection is all about?

HOSTIN: Yes.

LEMON: Isn't that what we do?

NEJAME: Yes. Of course. We sometimes just abandon our common sense when it comes to some of these terms and some of these things. All of us do it in one way or another. It doesn't mean it is a negative necessarily. Sometimes it's just for self-survival and having a measure of intelligence. There are certain neighborhoods that anything would be foolish to walk down the street at 2:00 in the morning by themselves.

And, you know, there are certain bars that, you know, we talked about it the other day, going to certain type of bars and certain parts of the country that it would be foolish to walk in there without knowing anybody by yourself at 2:00 in the morning. So is that common sense? Is that just using your brains and your god given intuition from your life's experiences or profiling? It's being sensible.

HOSTIN: What is interesting, though, is I think earlier when this jury was chosen and we talked so much about oh, my goodness, six women, this is unprecedented, many people felt this was a defense jury because they were women. I always thought this was a prosecution bent sort of jury because of the mothers on the jury and I wonder after the verdict and when they come out and hopefully speak to us, I wonder where that played a part.

LEMON: You have said all along that she has been more right than wrong than you have.

NEJAME: I said it once. Come on.

HOSTIN: He did admit that.

NEJAME: I said it once.

LEMON: All right. Stand by, guys. I have some business to attend to.

NEJAME: Sure.

LEMON: We hit I think a long evening ahead of us here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Hello everyone. I'm Don Lemon, live in Sanford, Florida. It is 7:34 Eastern Time. I'm with CNN's special coverage of the George Zimmerman murder trial. So far the six-woman jury contemplating the fate of George Zimmerman has asked the court for only one question. It dealt with the manslaughter charge. Here is Judge Debra Nelson giving the response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY COURT: The proposed answer that has been agreed upon by both your counsel and the state is as follows - the court cannot engage in general discussions but may be able to address a specific question regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. If you have a specific question, please submit it. Is that acceptable to you, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.

NELSON: Acceptable to the state?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.

NELSON: Acceptable to counsel for the defense?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.

NELSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That's Judge Debra Nelson. George Zimmerman's entire future is in the hands of that six-woman jury which has been deliberating and they are still deliberating for more than 13 hours even though the judge has invited them to take a dinner break until 8:15. We're told they are still deliberating.

The case has sparked passionate debate on race in America, on guns, from people across the nation. They have some very strong opinions about it all. Again, this all comes down to the six-women jury who are going to decide George Zimmerman's fate. Much, much more.

We're going to get you live inside the courtroom if they come back shortly here on CNN. We have a short break and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. Welcome back to CNN's continuing coverage of the George Zimmerman murder trial.

This is the courtroom earlier this evening when everyone convened after the jury had a question regarding manslaughter. There you see George Zimmerman entering the courtroom. After all of this played out it took about an hour to play out and there was one recess and then another. The final recess the judge said she needed about 15 minutes but then we - that was over 30 minutes ago and we haven't heard back from her the jury's question. She did invite the jury and the attorneys to take a dinner break until about 8:15.

It is 7:40 here and according to our sources inside the courtroom, that jury is still deliberating. The question of course is about manslaughter. And our George Howell who has been following the case has been inside the courtroom digging on what exactly the judge did, what kind of instructions she gave the jury when it came to manslaughter and what have you. George, what are you finding out?

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, absolutely. You know, we've been talking back and forth here within CNN about this definition of manslaughter. I want to read this definition to you first. Excuse me. And then the jury instructions. So first the definition. Manslaughter, the killing of a human being by the act of another without lawful justification in cases in which such killings shall not be excusable homicide or murder. So the definition there of manslaughter.

And then I want to read to you the instructions that the jury walked away with so this is what they were told by Judge Debra Nelson. In order to convict of manslaughter by act it is not necessary for the state to prove that George Zimmerman had an intent to cause death. Only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused the death. It goes on to say, if you find George Zimmerman committed manslaughter, and you also find beyond a reasonable doubt that during the commission of manslaughter -

LEMON: Hey George?

HOWELL: Yes?

LEMON: George, pause there.

HOWELL: OK.

LEMON: We're going back to that. Read the line where you said, what did you say, negligence?

HOSTIN: Justified.

LEMON: Justified. Read the justifiable line again.

HOWELL: All right. Let me find it here. A lot of language to look through. OK. I'll pick it up there and conclude it and keep an eye - just read the line.

LEMON: Go ahead.

HOWELL: Only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused the death.

LEMON: OK. Hold that George and then we'll come back to you. What were you saying?

NEJAME: I'm saying that is really the essence of where the jury is going to have to land. Was this justifiable? Was it excusable? Did the state because there has been self-defense, a very small burden for the defense, once they go ahead and show self-defense, acting in self- defense, that the state then has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not do so. That is the crux of the case.

Did he, did the state prove beyond a reasonable doubt that his act was unreasonable? In light of all the attendant circumstances? That one line will be the case.

LEMON: OK. And did the state prove that?

HOSTIN: Well, I think so. And I think that if you go back into the jury instructions and look at second-degree murder, they had to make that determination whether or not second-degree murder was justifiable or excusable. It's at the very, very beginning of the jury instructions. My spidey sense tells me they may be beyond that. And so if they're on manslaughter they may already have already decided that self-defense is not really applicable.

LEMON: OK. Stand by. George Howell, you still there?

HOWELL: I am. Yes.

LEMON: OK. Pick it up and then we'll talk about the next line. What do you have?

HOWELL: Got it, Don. Sure, the next line says if you find George Zimmerman committed manslaughter and you also find beyond a reasonable doubt that during the commission of manslaughter George Zimmerman carried, displayed, used, threatened to use, or attempted to use a firearm, you should check the appropriate box on the verdict form. So that's the language that this jury was given and what they're looking at when it comes to manslaughter.

Keep in mind that this definition, these jury instructions, these were brokered specifically tailored for this case against George Zimmerman. Brokered by the attorneys in that charging conference and then the jury instructions Judge Debra Nelson signed off on these, you know, these instructions and that is what she told the jury when she sent them off for deliberations.

LEMON: OK. Hey, George, do you have with you from the jury instructions where it says manslaughter to prove the crime of manslaughter the state must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt? Do you have that one with you? If you look through?

HOWELL: Don, yes, in a minute.

LEMON: OK. That's okay. I'm not putting you on the spot. I thought if you had it we could talk about it. I know you have been looking at this. Yes. Here is a graphic. Put it up. I want our guys to talk about it here. To prove the crime of manslaughter the state must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt. Trayvon Martin is dead. That's number one. Right? And then you have said OK. So we know that.

HOSTIN: That's been established.

LEMON: OK. Obviously. Number two, George Zimmerman intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of Trayvon Martin.

HOSTIN: And he didn't need to intend to kill Trayvon Martin. That's a big distinction. That is also in the jury instructions. But he had to intend the act. Basically let me give you an example.

Let's say you are accused of manslaughter and you didn't know that the gun had a bullet in it. That the gun had bullets. You accidentally shoot the gun. Well, that's negligent but that's not intentional. That act wasn't intentional. Some would argue. And so this is a different situation. He certainly admitted that he intended to fire the firearm. He intended to shoot because he says that he believed he was going to die so he had to shoot.

LEMON: Hold on. George, you still there?

HOWELL: I am.

LEMON: George Howell still there? So George, I'm not sure if you were in the courtroom at that particular point but I know you've been reporting on it. So when this whole manslaughter thing came up you saw that the defense was incredulous. If you were inside the courtroom, if you were watching what was the mood inside? Did they appear to be taken off guard? Sunny is believing this was - they were being too cute by half. That it was all theater.

HOSTIN: Yes.

HOWELL: Well, you know, initially people thought, people assumed tat it would be aggravated assault. Turned out they weren't going to use aggravated assault in this case. They decided to use manslaughter. You will also remember that prosecutors suggested using third-degree felony murder in the case of child abuse.

LEMON: Right.

HOWELL: The defense attorneys when they heard that you'll remember Don West said I can't believe that you'd bring this into the case at this point. Judge Debra Nelson decided that third-degree felony murder would not be added as a lesser offense here. They agreed on this charge of manslaughter and it seems like that's something that both sides agreed on fine. The judge decided it was appropriate for this case.

LEMON: OK. Hang on. George, very good explanation. Thank you. I appreciate you helping us and our viewers get through that. Do you have an issue with something?

NEJAME: Just so the viewers fully understand. Any side can ask because it was a category one lesser included. So if either side had asked for manslaughter it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that the judge was going to grant it. So the defense really didn't want a manslaughter. They knew this could potentially be the default that could get convicted for the state. So they objected. But I think it was more just to make the record and try to claim to the judge just like on the aggravated assault or on the third-degree murder of a child that there were no elements brought out during the course of the case. There were plenty of elements brought out by the state during the course of the case that would suggest the state brought enough in to allow for a manslaughter conviction.

So their effort was really just an effort in futility. They need to make the argument. You got to make your record. You never really know. That's been a foregone conclusion. They've always known manslaughter would be a consideration for the jury.

LEMON: Behind us the Seminole County Courthouse. Very interesting this morning. I ran into all the players going into the courthouse. They were leaving as I was going in. What I found, what struck me, about everything that I saw, was that George Zimmerman, standing in the window of the top floor of the Seminole County Courthouse looking out on to this court yard into the parking lot at the media, at the demonstrators who had gathered, with his family there. I said, you know, "I can't imagine not knowing what my fate is going to be." Granted, he was involved in a crime that resulted in the death of someone.

HOSTIN: An alleged crime.

LEMON: Yes. But something, an incident that ended in death for a young man. Can you imagine?

NEJAME: I mean, in the next few hours a group of strangers will determine your fate. You may be spending the rest of your life in prison or you may simply be walking out and this is, at least this stage is over. He has a long way to go before this part of his life is over.

LEMON: Not even a few hours. It could be in a few moments. Because she has invited them to take a break, a dinner break until 8:15 and yet they are still deliberating. That should say something about this. If they do come back, within the next few minutes, we'll bring you live into the courtroom. We'll continue to go on here as long as the jury is deliberating here on CNN. We're back after a very quick break with live coverage of the George Zimmerman trial.

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ALINA CHO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Alina Cho in New York. CNN's special coverage of the George Zimmerman trial returns in just a moment.

But first, a look at some of the other news happening today. The death toll is still rising in that run away train explosion in Canada. Police in Quebec say there are now 33 people confirmed dead. 30 others are still missing.

This new video shows massive debris from the blast coating the town. The train company's CEO faced anger from residents when he visited the town on Wednesday. He has said the train engineer may have lied when he said he set 11 hand brakes on the train cars before the accident. One week ago today those train cars filled with crude oil exploded into an inferno. Authorities say the massive fire may have vaporized some of the victims.

To San Francisco now, and some sad news to report related to last weekend's crash of that Asiana Airline's flight. Hospital officials say a third crash victim has now died. She's only being identified as a girl. Her parents have asked that no other information be released. Two other girls both 16 years old also died in the crash. We've also learned that one of those girls was hit on the runway by a fire truck. It has not been determined if she was already dead when she was struck.

Meantime, airport officials have been working to resume normal operations. The runway that was the site of the crash has re-opened.

The White House says there is no indication that Russia is prepared to send intelligence leaker Edward Snowden back to the United States. President Obama spoke with his Russian counterpart, Putin, by phone yesterday about the fate of Snowden. He is wanted in the U.S. for leaking intelligence secrets and has been hiding out at Moscow's main airport.

It's been another deadly day in Iraq, at least 14 people were killed. Dozens injured in three separate bombings around Baghdad. Nine of those deaths were in a busy shopping area in the southern part of the city. Another bombing took place near a Sunni mosque. On Friday, at least 33 people were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up inside a coffeehouse in Kurkuk.

It is the single deadliest attack on the U.N.'s international peace keeping force in Sudan. Seven peacekeepers were killed. 17 others hurt. During an ambush. It happened in south Darfur just north of the state capital. So far, no claims of responsibility. Some 300,000 people have been killed in Darfur since rebels began fighting the Sudanese government nearly 10 years ago.

Typhoon Su Luk is creeping toward China after drenching Taiwan with eight inches of rain in just one day. The storm lashed the island with strong winds and rain, but its trip over the island sapped its strength apparently. It's now been weakened to the equivalent of a category 1 hurricane. China is bracing for that typhoon. It's expected to bring even more rain to areas already soaking wet from earlier storms.

I'm Alina Cho in New York. Stay with us. Our live coverage of the George Zimmerman murder trial continues after a quick break. We will return to Sanford, Florida, with our Don Lemon. Stay with us.

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