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Awaiting Verdict in the Zimmerman Trial
Aired July 13, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Don Lemon, live here in Sanford, Florida. There you're looking at live pictures of the Seminole County Courthouse. Inside that courtroom, inside that courthouse, six women. They are deliberating the fate of George Zimmerman right now.
This is CNN's special coverage of the George Zimmerman trial. And in about 15 minutes, we may get a big clue as to how close we could be to a possible verdict. That's when court resumes. And the six-woman jury must get specific about its question on manslaughter, its question about manslaughter.
Here's Judge Debra Nelson giving the court's response to the jury's manslaughter question, which apparently was too vague.
All right. We'll get that for you in just a little bit.
We want to tell you that George Zimmerman's entire future in the hands of that six-woman jury which has been deliberating for more than 14 hours now. The case has sparked really passionate debate about just about everything, on race in America, about guns, about people across the nation. They have very strong opinions on this.
Judge Debra Nelson, addressing the jury's question just a short time ago. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, ZIMMERMAN TRIAL: The proposed answer that has been agreed upon by both your counsel and the state is as follows: the court cannot engage in general discussions but may be able to address a specific question regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. If you have a specific question, please submit it.
Is that acceptable to you, sir?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
NELSON: Acceptable to the state?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor.
NELSON: Acceptable to counsel for the defense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor.
NELSON: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: So just about 14 minutes we should hear something. You know, but it all comes down, again, as we've been saying, to those six women who decide whether George Zimmerman should go to prison for shooting -- for the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, or will he walk away a free man?
I want to bring in our legal team here, our experts.
Mark NeJame, who is a respected attorney here in Florida, as well as a CNN legal analyst; Sunny Hostin is a former prosecutor and attorney as well; Paul Callan is a legal analyst. Our Holly Hughes is a former prosecutor and then Faith Jenkins is a former prosecutor in New York.
But before I get to all of you, I want to get to our Martin Savidge. Martin Savidge is in the courtroom. He was in the courtroom when the judge called everyone in and said the question -- in the courthouse when the judge said that the jury had a question regarding second -- regarding manslaughter, excuse me.
Martin, take us inside the courtroom and tell us what we're waiting on now.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, of course what we're waiting for is essentially what the judge said. She came into the courtroom after that question was sent back by the attorneys. We all were to stand by 15 minutes to see if there was going to be some sort of immediate response from the jurors. That apparently didn't happen.
And then the judge sent a deputy into the courtroom to say, hey, we're on a dinner recess. And that will go until 8:15. So that's the next milestone we're waiting for, is about 13 minutes from now when essentially everyone comes back.
Does that mean that something is going to happen exactly at 8:15? Not necessarily. What it means is that we're available if there is something that happens, if the jurors do send back another question. I mean, it can become this kind of frustrating yet important action, where the jurors send out a question. The attorneys basically say, you know what, that question is too vague; we send them a question. So the question's gone back to the jurors. If they are going to try and figure it out on their own or whether they come back with the specific question that the jurors -- or that the attorneys want, they'll have to see.
What was interesting was that the way this question was crafted. After all that we've been through is essentially one yellow legal pad that the judge hands the defense and prosecution. You have Rich Manti and you have Mark O'Mara, both hovering over that pad and both writing in different hands a little bit of the question.
It goes to the judge. She reviews it, reads it to the court, makes sure that George Zimmerman understands it, then she rewrites it in her own handwriting, because she was afraid that the jurors might be confused by two styles of handwriting and that's what went back.
So all of this is basically over a very short sentence structure, but that could have very crucial meaning and we wait to find out if the jury is going to continue to deliberate. They asked for dinner. They're eating it now. We'll just have to wait.
LEMON: Yes, and Marty, I think it's important also to point out that the judge said, listen, I want them to have this question in written form, I don't want anyone just to convey it to them because I want them to be able to look at it, if they -- no matter how many times, and it's in plain English right in front of them. She said that in court.
SAVIDGE: Correct. I mean, at one point it was actually Mark O'Mara who said, well, maybe the jurors will come into the courtroom and they will have the attorneys' question read to them by the judge, and that's when Judge Deborah Nelson said, no, I think it's better we send the question back to them. Thereby they have a hard copy.
Thereby they can read it more than once or several times to gain their own clarification on the insight. So that's what happened. The question was actually sent back by a bailiff and the jurors are going to review it as they eat their meal.
LEMON: Yes.
And Marty, when you're in there, having gone in there this morning, you've spent countless hours in there. But you get a sense that something is going to happen because they'll come into the overflow room. Not sure if you're in the overflow room or if you're in the actual courtroom. And they'll say, they'll bring everyone up or they'll tell you the attorneys are about to come in, the judge is about to come in.
Do you get a sense of any timing right now? We know it's supposed to happen at --
SAVIDGE: Well, you know, timing has been the question of the day. Everyone has been wondering if it will be today. I think there was a general sense that, as we got into the early evening hours, that, ar. Maybe it isn't going to be today, maybe this is going to be another session, where jurors say they have finished and would like to go back and rest for the night.
But then we have this question, and that really has changed the whole attitude. I think now there is a sense that, OK, they must be getting close. They seem to be trying to define a specific law and maybe using that to come up with their verdict.
So I think the anticipation is, with the question, with the specific nature of that question, and with the dinner being brought in, that the jurors are wanting to get something achieved tonight. But you know what, we can all read way too much into this, and maybe that is not the case. I think we'll just have to watch, listen and see.
LEMON: Well, Marty, I think it's important what you're saying because this jury worked through lunch, and they're working through dinner. The judge invited them to take a dinner. They don't have to work through dinner.
So I think it's important, you know, as you're saying, everyone's anticipating something's going to happen, that they've come to some sort of consensus. I mean, they're not taking many breaks here, are they?
SAVIDGE: No. I mean, and that's probably the most important thing they look at here is that they have decided that they're going to push through, but -- and clearly they're committed. You know, they want to -- they want to try and get this definition down, but what does that really mean?
I mean, we can sit there and say, well, does that mean they've taken second degree off the table and now they're solely focused on manslaughter? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe this clarification will somehow refocus them on second degree.
It's just very difficult to really surmise when you're dealing with one question coming out and another question going back in. And we are all, you know, intensely focused on what could this mean.
So I think you're right. But you look at what is the obvious. They work through lunch, working through dinner. They clearly feel that they are making, I guess, progress, and that's what we should note because they've gone beyond the normal hours of the day.
Could they go all night? It is possible. I mean, Judge Deborah Nelson has worked cases, not this one, but other cases that have gone into the morning hours, where the jury just felt they could use that time. So it could be a long night.
LEMON: All right. Martin Savidge, I want you to be in place, of course, when this happens. So, Martin, thank you very much.
If anything happens, we'll get back to Martin Savidge, Martin Savidge, our man inside the courtroom in the George Zimmerman trial.
I want to bring in now our superpanel. Sitting next to me, right here in Sanford, Florida, is Sunny Hostin, who is a former prosecutor, and also Mark NeJame, who is a respected attorney and also CNN analyst Paul Callan and CNN analyst Holly Hughes, former prosecutor, and also Faith Jenkins. And so many people to keep track of them. Yes, there are no words on the screen.
Notice we were just doing this without words on the screen; I have to keep track.
Who do I have now? Who do I have now?
So as you're listening to Martin Savidge, and Martin saying, hey, listen, as I pointed out to him and he pointed out, they haven't taken many breaks. They said, hey, listen, they just said we're ready to go home last night. And that's about it. We want lunch, we're ready to get food, but we're working. SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And that's par for the course for this jury. During the trial oftentimes the judge would say, would you like to take a break? And they say, no, we don't need to take a break. You know, during even closing arguments I was surprised that they wanted to just continue. It's the type of industrious jury I think we have here.
MARK NEJAME, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I was actually surprised that they wanted to go home the other night because they have been (inaudible) an aberration for them. They just have been relentless with their work ethic.
LEMON: A quick lightning round here. If you can just give me five or 10 seconds from the group.
First to you, Paul, your assessment.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They're obviously a hardworking group. And you know, a lot of these women have little kids at home and they haven't been home to see the kids. And they're working right through. But you know, the thing I just wanted to focus on is it's really --
LEMON: Quick, Paul. Quickly, Paul.
CALLAN: Yes. Go ahead.
The manslaughter thing is not that complicated. It's intentional. Shooting the gun at Trayvon Martin, killing him without self-defense. That's manslaughter. That's a simple way to explain it. That's all it is. Yes.
LEMON: Holly Hughes, very quickly.
HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Don, they're making progress, and they believe they can reach a unanimous decision or they would have already thrown in the towel and gone home for the night.
LEMON: Faith?
FAITH JENKINS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Don, when a jury is sequestered, everyone works harder. The jurors, the court staff, the judges, the attorneys because they want to get to a resolution. This case has been going on for a few weeks now. I expect we'll have a verdict this weekend if not tonight.
LEMON: OK. It should happen about five minutes or less if the judge will come back and give us some sort of idea of what is going on, if the jury is going to leave and go home for the evening or if they're going to continue to deliberate. The court is scheduled back less than five minutes. We're scheduled back much shorter time period than that. Right after this break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: Don Lemon, welcome back to our continuing coverage of the George Zimmerman trial. At any moment now, in less than a minute, we're expecting to hear from the judge, Judge Deborah Nelson here. That's when we're supposed to hear from her. But obviously she will come out when she -- when she gets ready to.
But we're supposed to hear from her and what the jury is thinking in regards to that question about manslaughter.
In the meantime, let's get back to business here as we await the judge. As we await (inaudible) and everything that's going on inside of that courthouse, inside of the courtroom.
I have got Mark NeJame here who is an attorney and also a CNN legal analyst. I have Sunny Hostin here as well, a CNN legal analyst. Also have Holly Hughes who is a former prosecutor and then also Paul Callan, who is a CNN legal analyst, joining me in New York.
Paul, I was listening. What you said to me before the break, it did not go unheard. It did not fall on deaf ears.
You said there is a -- it was very simple. You said it's very simple about manslaughter. Talk to me about that.
What did you mean by that?
CALLAN: Well, you know, I think what we're seeing now, and this is classic in a murder case, the jury is confused because when judges charge juries, they're reading from law books. They're reading lengthy, complicated explanations of statutes.
But I think you can boil this down so our viewers have a really clear understanding of what's going on. Second-degree murder, which if Sunny is correct, and she may very well be and they've already decided about that, is that with hate in his heart, George Zimmerman pursued and killed Trayvon Martin, and he wasn't acting in self-defense.
If they have moved beyond that, and they've said, maybe they've said, well, we can't prove that he had hate in his heart, maybe he did it just because he had other reasons to do it. So now we're going to look at manslaughter.
Well, manslaughter is much simpler. It's just that he, George Zimmerman, pointed the gun and fired it directly at Trayvon Martin because anybody firing a gun at a person's chest would know that it was going to cause serious injury or death and he was not acting in self-defense. If those two things are present, that's manslaughter.
Now, the judge is going to read this long explanation to the jury about what manslaughter is, but eventually this jury is going to find its way to that. If it's manslaughter, they have to find a gun was pointed, it was fired, and Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense, and that is where we're going to be at the end of this charge if the jury is paying attention.
LEMON: So, Paul, is this manslaughter? CALLAN: Well, you know, that's a struggle. I don't know if there's enough -- I mean, I think this jury is very close to saying yes to that question, because I think the women on this jury are saying, a young 17-year-old adolescent is dead, and he was just in a condo development where he lived, and it's wrong and somebody's got to pay a price for it and maybe manslaughter is the price.
I don't know how an appellate court will look at it, though, when it evaluates all the evidence in the case.
Will they say there was enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense? That's what I'm wondering about, in the end, where we'll go with the case. But I think the women on this jury are moving in the direction of manslaughter at this point.
LEMON: OK.
To borrow from my friend, Nancy, unleash the lawyers here. You're nodding your head.
What are you thinking?
NEJAME: Well, I think there's some strong points of appeal if there's a conviction, but I don't think that a court will reverse, based upon the fact that they don't find that a manslaughter occurred on that issue, because appellate courts don't review issues of fact.
And I think that the prosecution did put together -- and I thought that this has been a very challenging case for the state, but I do think they put together enough that if there's a conviction that won't be the basis for an appeal. I think some of the discovery issues that we talked about earlier may, in fact, be valid.
I think that some of the discovery issues, as far as in the time that was given to the defense to go through all that, when it came out at a relatively last-minute, I think maybe some valid grounds for an appeal. But not on that ground, specifically.
I'm thinking that there's a real debate going on, you know, right now I think that there's a real debate going on because I think that jury represents a microcosm of our society, which is split down the middle on this case, and I think some are saying acquittal, and some are saying conviction.
And I do think, though, that this is a jury that's not going to feel satisfied unless they come up with an answer. I think they're going to do everything possible not to allow a hung jury to occur.
LEMON: Holly Hughes, before the break, don't think I didn't listen to you as well. I heard you. You said that this jury, you're saying the opposite of what Mark NeJame is saying. You're saying this is a unanimous jury.
What do you mean by that? How so?
HUGHES: I think they believe they can unanimously reach a verdict, whether it's a not guilty or whether it's a guilty on manslaughter.
And the reason that I say that, Don, if these women were so polarized in that room, and we've seen how this case can do that, right? You and I first reported this case a year and a half ago when it first happened in February of 2012, before Ben Crump, before anybody else, we talked about this. We have seen the evolution of this case. It is very polarizing.
So if you had, as, you know, Mark has been discussing, a jury is a microcosm of our society. If you had such strong opinions in there that these women were completely polarized, they would not still be hashing it out at 8:20 on a Saturday evening.
I think they would have said, you know what, let's just go tell the judge we can't reach a decision or let's just go back to the hotel, get a good night's sleep, and we will start duking it out first thing in the morning. The fact that they are still there and, let's face it, at 9 o'clock, guys, in 40 minutes, these women will have been at it for 12 straight hours.
LEMON: Twelve hours.
HUGHES: And they're still going. And they're still willing to be going. And that tells me they believe amongst themselves they could reach an agreement, which is what we need, Don, whether it's a not guilty, a guilty of manslaughter or a guilty of second degree. They have got to be unanimous or they have got to call it quits.
LEMON: And if they can keep going, we can keep going and we will as long as they are deliberating, we will be on the air live to bring you the very latest developments.
It's a good time to take a break now, because we're awaiting the judge, at least -- not sure if the jury will come back -- the judge and the attorneys to come back into court to give us an update at any moment here on CNN. You're not going to miss a moment of it. Live coverage coming up right after this break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Live pictures of George Zimmerman murder trial, live from Sanford, Florida. You're looking at the Seminole County Courthouse, and there is that seal inside the courtroom. We're awaiting the judge to come in at any moment. She's supposed to come back at 8:15. She invited the jury and she invited the attorneys to go to dinner until 8:15.
The jury decided to work through dinner so they took a dinner -- they ate dinner. They didn't take a break. And they worked through dinner. It's interesting wondering what's going at this late hour, why they're still working at this late hour. And as our Holly Hughes pointed out, in Atlanta, and just over -- in just about 35 minutes, they will have been deliberating for 12 hours today.
Jeffrey Toobin, CNN legal analyst, what do you make of the deliberations into this late hour?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, juries tend to work late when they're close to a resolution. That's the general rule. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean we're close to a verdict, but especially a sequestered jury wants to get this over with. They want to go home. They want to be with their families. And they are going to try to work into the night if they can get it done.
That doesn't mean they will get it done, but certainly the fair assumption is that you don't work until 8 o'clock if you -- unless you think you can just get it done tonight.
LEMON: So you think that they're close to something, otherwise they go home?
TOOBIN: Well, or they would just pack it in for the night and go back to their hotel and relax. This is, you know, this is an unusually long deliberation. They started at 9:00 in the morning. It's not unusually long in terms of number of days. But for a single day, it's very unusual for a jury to deliberate for almost 12 hours.
So this is a very hardworking jury. And I would just -- I would just assume, guess, and, of course, I could be wrong, is that they are not -- they're not staying this late just because they think they're going to go on for another three or four days. They're staying this late because they think they can get it done today.
LEMON: Is there anything to read into the judge was supposed to, you know, at one point the judge came out and said, during the clarification, remember, Jeffrey, when she sent the note back, saying I'm going to send this note back with the court officer, give me 15 minutes, guys, and I'll get back to you and let you know.
We didn't hear from her for those 15 minutes. And then in that time she invited them to go to dinner and the jury kept working. That we haven't heard from the judge in this, does that add anything to this?
TOOBIN: You know, we're starting to get into the logistics of dinner and --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I know. I'm asking you to read the tea leaves and the crystal ball.
TOOBIN: -- there could be logistical things about where they're getting dinner and where they're ordering, and I just -- I don't want to assume anything about that that has any legal significance.
I think the only thing we know for sure is that it's 8 o'clock at night, it's past 8 o'clock, and they're still deliberating. And that's unusual and juries tend to only deliberate late at night when they think they can get done that night.
LEMON: Yes.
Jeffrey Toobin, stand by. We'll come back to you.
I want to bring Mark NeJame in here, who is a -- as people on social media have been reminding me when I introduce you as a CNN analyst, a very highly respected attorney here in the Florida area. You've represented some very high-profile people, including Tiger Woods and on and on. And also the largest criminal defense firm in Orlando. You know the players.
NEJAME: Not admitting or denying.
LEMON: Yes, but you know the players here and you know, you can give us an idea of what's happening here and what we can expect. And I'm sure you've been involved in deliberations that have gone into the wee hours.
How has that usually worked out for you if you can offer us some perspective on that?
NEJAME: This is such a different case. Any high-profile case, it's just different. We've seen a revolution going on in the last few years.
LEMON: Are we making too much of every single little moment here, you think?
NEJAME: Well, that's what we do. So the answer is, no, because this is what we do. We're all three of us are on our social media as we're up here. I'm on my Twitter, Facebook. And Sunny is nonstop. And she can go out for the Olympics with her finger movement. And, Don, you're nonstop as well. And that's just the way it is.
We saw it first in the Casey Anthony case. We've talked about it. But truly, it's interactive, it's real-time. People are engaged. We have media in the courtroom in Florida. Not everybody does. People get blow-by-blow what's going on. And they're learning the justice system.
So we're not necessarily the most educated people in the world when it comes to understanding the legal system and our own government. This allows people to have that opportunity. And I think people have become engaged. We know people like crime stories.
LEMON: Right.
NEJAME: We know that. We see "Law & Order." We see the judge shows on TV. We see "CSI." We know all this exists and people are fascinated by it, but they're starting to realize that it's not just so polar, that there are so many shades that go in between.
LEMON: Yes. We see "CSI." We know all the suggestions people are fascinated by. But they're starting to realize that it's not just so polar, that there are so many shades that go in between.
LEMON: Yeah. One second. I don't mean to cut you off. I've just been told by my producers that the jury finished dinner. They went out (ph) to dinner. The jury has finished their dinner and now they are back to deliberating.
NEJAME: Oh, really?
LEMON: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
HOSTIN: They've been deliberating 15 hours.
LEMON: 15 hours.
HOSTIN: 15 hours.
NEJAME: So, now, Sunny, that goes past your one hour per day. We had 14 days of trial.
HOSTIN: Yeah.
NEJAME: So if you go to the - an old adage, which we know isn't locked in anything, but if we're using, you know, a yardstick to measure this by, we're past the normal one hour per day of ...
HOSTIN: One hour of deliberations per day of trial. That's sort of the standard. So they're at 15 hours instead of 14 hours, but I've got to tell you, I mean, I would agree with Jeff, a jury that ordered dinner at around 6:00 or 7:00, ate dinner, it's now 8:30, they have continued deliberating. That tells me they think they can reach a resolution tonight.
NEJAME: And we said that hours ago, we said if they still work through the night, they're getting closer towards a verdict.
LEMON: I need to reset here, I've been told by my producer - what's impromptu. There's nothing in prompter. So, I'm just going it to reset here. It is the bottom of the hour, it's just past the bottom of the hour. It is 8:31 Eastern time.
8:31 Eastern time, Don Lemon live, in Sanford, Florida, where the jury is still deliberating, going into almost their 12th hour today of deliberation for the George Zimmerman murder trial. They have been going at it for a long time. Yesterday they deliberated for 3 1/2 hours before telling the judge that they were ready to go home. And they sent a note earlier, just about two hours ago, to the judge saying that they needed some clarification. They had a question about manslaughter. And so the judge came out and they sort of rectified the situation. Sent a note back to the jury saying that they couldn't talk in general about manslaughter, but they could answer specific questions if the jury had it about manslaughter. Let's listen now to Judge Debra Nelson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE DEBRA NELSON, SEMINOLE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Proposed answer that has been agreed upon by both your counsel and the state is as follows. The court cannot engage in general discussions, but may be able to address a specific question regarding clarification of the instructions regarding manslaughter. If you have a specific question, please submit it. Is that acceptable to you, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
NELSON: Acceptable to the state?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
NELSON: Acceptable to counsel for the defense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
NELSON: Thank you, all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. And now we're awaiting the jury and the judge to come back now and tell us how long if they're going to continue to deliberate, or if they have, in fact, come to a verdict. They were - the judge was supposed to come out at about 8:15. She said that they were supposed to take dinner until then. We were expecting the judge to come out at about 8:15 and tell us what that six-woman jury, six- woman jury was up to, what they had decided so far. To continue on or if they had come to some sort of resolution. What they had decided about their question, what have you. We have what I'm calling a super-panel of legal experts here on CNN tonight guiding us through all of this. And they will be helping us out right after this. But again, I don't know if you guys can hear this. You can - there are helicopters ...
HOSTIN: Yeah
LEMON: The local news helicopters are in the air. There are people gathering outside the courthouse right now. And there are people waiting inside the courthouse. Court observers, reporters and, of course, the Zimmerman family, George Zimmerman, the attorneys, all inside, all waiting to hear what this six-woman -- this women - this jury of six women ...
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Let's put it that way.
HOSTIN: Yeah.
LEMON: What they are going to decide this evening if anything. We're going to be back in a short moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Back now with CNN's continuing coverage of the George Zimmerman trial. I'm Don Lemon live in Sanford, Florida. The Seminole County courthouse. You see the lights on. The top row; that is the fifth floor, and that is where that courtroom is. I want to tell you guys, tell our viewers that we're getting some guidance from our Martin Savage who is inside of the courthouse that they have been moving reporters and members of the media around in the courthouse and that may be an indication that we may have some movement soon in this particular case. Not exactly sure what that means. Why don't we go to Martin Savage now inside of the courthouse? Martin, what do you have for us?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, can you hear me? We're once again in kind of the standby mode. We are not up on the fifth floor because Judge Nelson has determined that at this particular time there's no reason for us to be up there. The courtroom is not open. It means that we're now back on the first floor, which is the general waiting area for the media. So it's kind of a standby or maybe even a stand-down. Once dinner, she did tell us that, you know, dinner was complete for the jurors. We anticipated we might get called back in to - maybe their response question, so the question that went back to them. That hasn't happened. So we're sort of back to the posture we were at for much of the day, which is waiting on the first floor, waiting to see if there will be any further developments tonight. We know the jury is still deliberating, but beyond that, nothing more. So, if we now - if we get some sort of quick response, I'm afraid that isn't happening. And the jury apparently didn't have a quick answer back. And what does that mean? I'm at a loss on what to tell you, Don?
LEMON: Yeah, we were trying to figure that out, Martin. I mean she did come out, and correct me if I'm wrong, and she said, you know, she said - the jury has ordered dinner. She said, but before you guys do anything, before you take a dinner break, give me 15 minutes to decide how the jury wants to respond to this, correct? And then we never heard back. We never heard anything else.
SAVIDGE: Right. Right. We waited the 15 minutes and then the judge didn't actually even come back into the courtroom. She sent a deputy, and he said the judge wanted to let you know that this court is now in a one hour dinner recess. So that happened. We're back, but nothing since. And that's, you know, what does that mean - does it mean that the jurors are not going to respond with their own question? Or maybe they're fine tuning their question. There are so many things we could ask, there are so many things we could try to really sift through and determine. But what we do know is that they're working late which must mean that in some way they feel they're making progress, and that they have had a question about manslaughter, but that question was answered with another question from the attorneys, be more specific. And since then, silence from those jurors. So, we'll wait, we're here, we're ready to go back into the courtroom. And we will be notified the moment that there is another development, Don.
LEMON: All right. CNN's Martin Savage inside the courthouse now with that new information. Martin, thank you very much. I have a team of experts with me outside the courthouse. Mark NeJame, who is an experienced attorney as well as the CNN legal analyst, Sunny Hosting is here as well. She's an attorney, former prosecutor. Paul Callan is a CNN legal analyst. Holly Hughes is a former prosecutor and Faith Jenkins, former prosecutor as well. Hey, Paul, I want to go to you and ask you a question. Are you with me there in New York?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, I'm with you, but you're forgetting, I'm a former prosecutor, too. Deputy chief homicide.
LEMON: OK.
CALLAN:: How do you like that?
LEMON: All right.
CALLAN:: I've got to jump right on this prosecutor bandwagon here.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: All right.
CALLAN: OK. Go ahead, Don.
LEMON: All right. We want to give you our props. Listen ...
CALLAN: Yeah.
LEMON: I think this is a very good question, and this is from CNN producer Eric Hall. Eric, thank you for this question. I think it's really good. He said Paul Callan put it in very simple terms, which is helpful to us, but curious. Will someone make it that simple for the jurors? Is someone allowed to, Paul?
CALLAN: No, they're not. And I think that's what makes things very confusing for jurors. Florida does something, by the way, that a lot of states don't. New York, for instance, doesn't send written instructions into the jury. These jurors can bring those instructions in and read them. No, the judge, probably, he may narrow - or she may narrow the instructions a little bit, instead of reading the whole statute, she'll read some of the portions of it. But she'll never make it as simple as I did because, frankly, she'd be afraid that an appellate court would say that's an oversimplification and it was unfair to the defendant. But in reality, that's really what it does come down to. It's not overly complicated. But you know how the law is, they just - they muck it up and make it so complicated. Ordinary people have hard time understanding it. Lawyers have a hard time understanding it. So ...
LEMON: So then, the question is, then, why not simplify it?
NEJAME: A lot of lawyers would be out of work.
(LAUGHTER)
HOSTIN: Well, and I ... LEMON: That's a simple answer, right? I mean, Paul, do you agree with that?
CALLAN: Well, you know, here's the problem. The problem with it is that manslaughter is something that covers an awful lot of situations. Let me give you a couple of examples. If you're out drinking too much, and you run a red light and you run somebody over, manslaughter. In this situation, the prosecution is saying manslaughter. If you were to throw a brick off of the building, not intending to hit somebody, but it did hit somebody, manslaughter. All right. So there are all of these different situations that the statute has to cover. All of this very human behavior. So the legislature has to struggle with it and make it big enough that it covers all these categories. But when you have a specific fact pattern like this, discharge of a gun, nope, no self-defense. It's really pretty simple. But if the judge were to say that to the jury, it would look like she was making up her mind and trying to encourage them to focus on the most damaging aspects of the charges against George Zimmerman, and that wouldn't be fair. So as a result, she reads the complicated law to them and simplifies it a little, but in the end, they've got to struggle and figure it out themselves in the jury room.
LEMON: OK. Where are we now? We're about -- we're 15 hours. More than 15 hours that this jury has been deliberating. Almost 12 hours today that they have been deliberating, right through lunch and right through dinner. And we're going to continue on as long as they are continuing to deliberate here on CNN. We're awaiting the judge, waiting the judge, the judge should be out at any moment now to tell us what we can expect. That is the Seminole County courthouse. That is a live picture on that top floor where the lights are on. That's where the courtroom is where all of this will be decided, and George Zimmerman's fate will be decided in that courtroom on that fifth floor and it could happen at any moment. We're back in a moment as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ALINA CHO, CNN ANCHOR: You are taking a live look there at the Seminole County courthouse in Sanford, Florida, where the jury in the George Zimmerman murder trial has been deliberating for 12 hours straight on a Saturday. Some have indicated we may be close to a verdict. So stay with us right here on CNN.
Hi, everybody, I'm Alina Cho in New York. CNN's special coverage of the George Zimmerman trial returns in just a moment, but first, a look at some of the other news happening today. The death toll is still rising in that runaway train explosion in Canada. Police in Quebec say there are now 33 people confirmed dead. About 30 others still missing. This new video shows massive debris from the blast coating the town. The train company's CEO has faced some anger from residents when he visited the town on Wednesday. He has said the train engineer may have lied when he said he set the handbrakes on the train cars before the accident. One week ago today, those train cars filled with crude oil exploded into an inferno. Authorities say the massive fire may have vaporized some of the victims.
To San Francisco, now, and some sad news to report related to last weekend's crash of that Asiana Airlines flight. Hospital officials say a third crash victim has now died. She's only being identified as a girl. Her parents have asked that no other information be released. Two other girls, both 16 years old, also died in the crash. We have also learned that one of those girls was hit on the runway by a fire truck, but we still don't know if she was already dead when she was hit. Meantime, airport officials have been working very hard to resume normal operations there. The runway that was the site of the crash has re-opened and that happened last night.
The White House says there is no indication that Russia is prepared to send intelligence leaker Edward Snowden back to the United States. NSA leaker Edward Snowden made his first public appearance yesterday since leaving Hong Kong last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDWARD SNOWDEN: A little over one month ago I had a family, a home in paradise and I lived in great comfort. I also had the capability without any warrant of the law to search for, seize, and read your communications. Anyone's communications at any time."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHO: President Obama spoke with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin by phone yesterday about the fate of Snowden. Snowden is wanted in the U.S. for leaking intelligence secrets. He's been hiding out at Moscow's main airport.
It's been another deadly day in Iraq. At least 14 people killed, dozens injured in three separate bombings around Baghdad. Nine of those deaths were in a busy shopping area in the southern part of the city. Another bombing took place near a Sunni mosque. And on Friday, at least 33 people were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself up inside a coffeehouse in Kirkuk.
It is the single deadliest attack on the U.N.'s international peacekeeping force in the Sudan. Seven peacekeepers were killed, 17 others injured during an ambush. It happened in South Darfur just north of the state capital. So far no claim of responsibility. Some 300,000 people have been killed in Darfur since rebels began fighting the Sudanese government nearly a decade ago.
Typhoon Soulik is creeping toward China after drenching Taiwan with eight inches of rain in just one day. Take a look at that. The storm lashed the island with strong winds and rain, but its trip over the island apparently sapped its strength, and it's now been weakened to the equivalent of a category one hurricane. China is now bracing for that typhoon. It is expected to bring even more rain to areas already soaking wet from earlier storms.
Stay with us. I'm Alina Cho in New York. Our live coverage of the George Zimmerman murder trial continues after this quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Live coverage now of the George Zimmerman murder trial. There is that Seminole County courthouse where that six-woman jury are inside right now and they are deliberating the fate of George Zimmerman. The neighborhood watchman who is accused of murdering 17- year-old Trayvon Martin, and we just got some new information from inside the court from our Martin Savage who's saying that they are moving people around. They moved them off the fifth floor and moved them into a holding room on the first floor and he's not exactly sure what's that indicative of, but there is some movement inside of the courthouse. I want to update you on exactly what took place, what happened earlier this evening. It's been about two hours since all of this went down. Since the jury sent a note to the judge saying that they had a question regarding manslaughter. The judge came out and brought everyone in to the courtroom and said, and told them that the jury had a question about manslaughter. She talked about it with the attorneys and with the prosecution and the defense.
For everyone, the consensus was is that the jury had to send a more specific question, or more specific questions about manslaughter rather than just speaking on manslaughter in general terms. And so they sent a note back to the jury, the judge did, in her own handwriting, telling them as such, and then telling the attorneys to give her 15 minutes to hear what the jury had to say. What their response would be to that particular note. We did not hear back from the judge about their response. In the meantime, we did hear that the judge invited the attorneys and the jury to go to dinner and return at 8:15 Eastern time. Well, the jury decided that they would work through dinner and at 8:15 Eastern time we heard that they were still back deliberating. Still no word from the judge on their question and now at this hour, at almost 9:00 P.M. Eastern time, the jury still deliberating. Three minutes until the top of the hour, we haven't really heard anything. Just before we get to the top of the hour, I want to bring Mark NeJame in here. Mark is joining me with - along with a whole host of other legal experts and Sunny Hosting who's here with me in Sanford, Florida. So, Mark, why - what does this long hour say to us, does it say anything?
NEJAME: Well, if I want to be facetious about it, a lot of people are talking about, you've got one juror with eight kids and she's enjoying the night off, or the time off. You know, she's getting room and board and then away - and get a little bit of peace. But the reality of it is, is that I think we've really got a working jury here. I think we've got a jury that, as we've said so many times, they just -- I think we should be proud to have them represent, you know, what a jury stands for. Because, you know, it's just not the United States watching this. The world is watching it and they're really seeing justice in action right here over a very divided issue. But it's playing out to the world in a way that it's supposed to.
LEMON: Go ahead, Sunny.
HOSTIN: And you know what's interesting, I'm getting so many tweets asking me when, you know, how late will this judge allow this jury to go?
LEMON: Late.
HOSTIN: Well, I just found out that she let another jury go until about 3:00 A.M. And so we can expect, perhaps, this judge to allow this jury to go as long as they want to go, which is fascinating because most judges will set hours. They'll say, OK, you know, deliberations will end at 6:00. But we have to remember this is a sequestered jury, so they don't have anywhere else to go, but back to their hotel room and then - or be in the courthouse. And so clearly, they've decided to be here.
LEMON: We're going to be live, as long as they're deliberating we're going to be live here on CNN. Thank goodness for the caffeine that we've just had.
HOSTIN: Yes.
LEMON: As Alina Cho was giving us - gave us the other news of the day. So, it could be a very long evening. But, we have to remember here, I mean we had the brief moment of levity. There's a young man, a 29-year-old man who could go to jail for life, for a very long time.
NEJAME: For real life.
LEMON: For real life, right. And there's a young man, a 17-year-old who lost his life in all of this, who's no longer with us. And that's what is being decided. Trayvon Martin. That's what's being decided inside of that courtroom right now. And so there are two families at home, and thousands of people who are part of that family around the country anticipating this and millions of people around the country and the world trying to figure out what these six women will do in all of this.
