Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Defense Not Shocked by Zimmerman Verdict; Justice Department Looking at Civil Case Against Zimmerman; Royal Baby Past Due Date; Some Believe Race Deciding Factor in Zimmerman Case.

Aired July 15, 2013 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: So I think it's fair to say a lot of people watching the Manning case to see if that's a case that can be made or not made in Edward Snowden's matter -- Michaela?

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: You can't try someone on the basis of embarrassment. Thank goodness for both you and I. I'm sure we've had instances ourselves.

Barbara Starr, Pentagon correspondent. We appreciate it. Great chatting with you today.

STARR: Sure.

PEREIRA: Still ahead, the jury found George Zimmerman not guilty, but could the Justice Department turn things around? We're going to ask our expert legal panel coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: The not-guilty verdict in the George Zimmerman trial was greeted with shock and dismay by many, but not by Zimmerman's defense team. They were confident in their case, or in the lack of the prosecution's case.

Chris Cuomo, anchor of CNN's "NEW DAY," my colleague, spoke with lead defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, to get more on his reaction to the case and the anger in the aftermath.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, NEW DAY: The reaction, a lot of it outrage to the not-guilty verdict. Are you surprised by that part of the reaction?

MARK O'MARA, ZIMMERMAN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I'm a bit surprised that there's outrage because we had hoped that everybody would look at this case as being a very fair trial where both parties were represented well, where I think most if not all of the evidence came out, and the jury took their time deliberating and came one a fair and just verdict. And we've all agreed that we should listen to a fair and just verdict. So I hope those people, even though they're frustrated, will accept the verdict.

CUOMO: Just because the prosecutors didn't meet the burden according to the jury, that doesn't necessarily mean that George Zimmerman did nothing wrong that night, right? Is he able to distinguish between what he did that was illegal and criminally responsible versus just morally wrong -- profiling the kid, taking an interest in someone who was doing nothing, having a weapon with a bullet already chambered in a situation that was unknown? Does he feel any sense of moral wrong?

O'MARA: I think he regrets having to take a life. He was put in a position where he had an untenable choice -- continue to get beat, maybe killed, or kill -- and he made that decision. To look at things like, why did he have a chamber -- a round chambered, Chris, I think you would agree every person who has a gun for self-defense, if you don't have a round in the chamber, it's a paperweight. If you're going to have a gun available to you, it has to be ready to use. It's a very safe weapon. It was holstered properly. He waited a long time to use it. And it was done properly. Does he regret taking a life? Of course, he does. Absolutely. But he was put in the untenable --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Does he --

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: Go ahead.

CUOMO: I'm sorry. The follow-up question is, does he regret, though, picking out Trayvon Martin? He was wrong, right? This kid was not doing anything wrong. He belonged there. He had a right to the place and space where he was also. Does he regret even singling him out that night?

O'MARA: Well, let's look at the circumstances as he was viewing them. He saw somebody who happened to be in the area where another person had just burglarized a home. Yes, and it was a young black male. Was that a focusing, a profiling? It was a suspicion. Let's not also forget that Trayvon Martin was under the influence of some marijuana. It didn't come into trial, but we're not bound by those facts now. We can't ignore the fact that he had prior history of burglaries because he was found with the fruit of a burglary back several months before. So you know, if we're going to look at the suspicions and the way he was acting, he was seemingly wandering around, having spent 45 or 50 minutes traveling less than a mile. So if you're going to look at what George Zimmerman saw that night, it's all got to be taken in context.

CUOMO: I'm sure you share the hopes of all that we find a way to move forward after this verdict and that any wounds can be healed in time. Do you have an ending thought about that?

(CROSSTALK)

O'MARA: -- a lot of conversations. I have. And we have a lot of conversations to have. I've been an advocate for the fact that black youth, black youths in America are not treated well by the criminal justice system and we need to have that conversation. My fear is that we polarize the conversation because we attach it to a self-defense verdict that they have nothing to do with.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: So what is the next step? Is George Zimmerman free to go? Is the case over? Maybe not. Some, including the NAACP, are demanding that the Department of Justice step in with civil rights charges against Zimmerman.

Here's part of the statement from the DOJ: "We have an open investigation into the death of Trayvon Martin. We will continue to evaluate the evidence generated during the federal investigation as well as the evidence and testimony from the state trial. Experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation of any of the limited federal criminal civil rights statutes within our jurisdiction."

Joining me now is CNN legal analyst, Paul Callan, and attorney, Midwin Charles.

Welcome to both of you.

Paul, let's start, right off the bat, the key word from the DOJ, may be "limited" as in "limited" criminal civil rights statutes. What are their options here?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they're in sort of a tough spot. You know, most of the time when they bring civil rights cases, they're usually bringing them against police officers who have used undue force on members of minority groups or other governmental agents, that they tend to be those kinds of cases. We haven't seen many where it's just one individual alleged of racial bias and then being violent to another individual.

Now, there are federal statutes that do apply. There are hate crimes in which this kind of a prosecution can be brought. But I have to say, it's very, very rare. And I think in this case it's going to be very hard to prove. They couldn't prove it in the case before this jury. So I don't know how the feds think they might have a shot at it. But they're looking.

PEREIRA: They are certainly looking.

Midwin, what do you think about other civil suits like wrongful death? Would you consider those on the table now?

MIDWIN CHARLES, ATTORNEY: Are you talking to me?

PEREIRA: Yes. I'm sorry. I wasn't sure you were able to hear me.

CHARLES: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were still talking to Paul.

Yes, it's entirely possible. The Trayvon Martin family could always potentially sue George Zimmerman on wrongful death. As you know, wrongful death is a civil suit, not a criminal suit, and therefore the standard of proof is less. No one is going to disagree that we would not be here today if George Zimmerman did not get out of his car that night. So there are certainly facts here that lead us to believe that George Zimmerman caused the death of Trayvon Martin, obviously, of course, apart from the fact that he put the bullet in his body. But a wrongful death suit I do think is appropriate, particularly since the family is trying to get justice.

And one of the things too that I have to say here, Michaela, is that while this decision I believe was legally correct, at least with respect to the second-degree charge. I do not think it was morally correct only because it just sends a horrific message with respect to what a person can do with a gun. You can follow someone, you can single them out, you can pretty much be the aggressor, but yet, if you happen to be the weaker person after you have started an altercation, you can just turn out and pull out your gun and kill the person. It just sends a horrific message.

PEREIRA: We're going to talk a little bit more a little bit later.

Paul, I want to ask you, was it the evidence or the attorneys that lost this case?

CALLAN: It was clearly the evidence that lost the case. There were great attorneys on both sides. And frankly, the prosecutors had a tough, tough set of facts to deal with. You know, only -- they really only had George Zimmerman's version of what happened. And frankly, the jury obviously looked at this and came to the conclusion that Trayvon Martin threw the first punch, broke his nose, broke Zimmerman's nose, and put Zimmerman in fear of his life. I mean, that's the essence of a self-defense claim.

I think there's a huge controversy about it around the country because in a lot of places like New York and Chicago and L.A., where we have a certain hostility toward gun possession, you bring a gun to a fistfight and you're going to get convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide in most big cities. But down South, I think there's a different attitude that people have about guns.

PEREIRA: All right. So we're putting this question to both -- to all of our legal panels today.

And, Midwin, we heard you say what you think, was this verdict accurate. I don't want to take words from your own mouth, but you say it, again, for you, you see this as being an accurate verdict or no?

CHARLES: I think it was accurate with respect to the second-degree charge. I think they had enough evidence to find for manslaughter. But overall, I think it was morally wrong.

PEREIRA: Paul?

CALLAN: Well, they're not asked to make moral verdicts. They're asked to Judge the evidence.

CHARLES: I know. I know, which is why --

(CROSSTALK) CALLAN: Midwin, you know that.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: -- legally correct.

CHARLES: All right. No, it was a legally correct verdict, and I think it adequately reflected the evidence at trial. I can't second- guess this jury.

PEREIRA: Paul Callan and Midwin Charles, we appreciate both of you joining us today. Thank you so much.

CALLAN: OK.

PEREIRA: In the United Kingdom, anticipation is growing. In fact, anticipation is growing around the world. We're waiting for the new prince or princess to arrive as the Duchess of Cambridge is now past her due date. We'll go live to London after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: I feel I must sit up taller and be more proper as I tell you this story. It is the mother of all baby watches. All of Great Britain, the rest of the world, and of course we the media have our eyes on London's St. Mary's hospital. That is where the Duchess of Cambridge could give birth at any moment to the future queen or king.

Our royal correspondent, Max Foster, is boiling water as we speak, and he joins us live from London.

How are you holding up? You're on baby watch and you have been for some time.

(LAUGHTER)

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: What can I say? I mean, we're not used to sun in the U.K., so I think it's all going to our heads a bit. If we spin the camera around, you can see the sort of waiting game as it unfolds, being called the Great Kate Wait as we sit around in the sun waiting for something to happen.

Prince William was playing polo yesterday, looking really relaxed. We didn't feel yesterday as if the due date was imminent. But the palace has always indicated mid July, so today, tomorrow, possibly. We don't know. William has taken the next few days off work. So that's the one bit of information we've managed to get today. But they're not going to tell us officially anything until she's inside and in labor. So I'm sure she's more focused on that rather than us. But we're very much focused on her.

(LAUGHTER)

PEREIRA: I was going to say something about this business of playing polo yesterday. Shouldn't he be sitting on pins and needles, worrying, knitting, picking a name, any of those things, Max? (LAUGHTER)

FOSTER: Well, yeah. The name issue is obviously up there. They say they don't know if it's a boy or a girl. So they've got a list of names apparently that they may go for either way. I think that's probably true because the easiest way of dealing with the question is it a boy or is it a girl is not knowing the answer, of course. So yeah, there is some debate.

She actually went home to her mum's at the weekend. And from what we can tell she's either with her mum or with William at any one particular time. So depending on when she goes into labor, she'll be coming up here with her mum or with William. But if he's off, you can assume they'd both come up to London and are near the hospital.

But I have to say, Michaela, there's another rumor that the due date is the 23rd of July. And when you consider that often the first baby's overdue, we could be here for another two weeks. So if you've got any ideas on keeping the troops entertained, send them to me.

PEREIRA: Well, we have been giving you a hard time about enjoying the one day of sun in London. So we could just suggest you work on your suntan but put on sunscreen.

Max Foster.

(LAUGHTER)

Good to see you. Thanks for joining us. And we'll check back in with you. Be sure to alert us as soon as you know anything.

All right. We want to get to this, some new developments just in in Egypt. CNN has learned that arrest warrants have been issued for at least seven leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. The group had backed ousted president, Mohamed Morsy. Since he was deposed two weeks ago, the Muslim Brotherhood has been the target of a government crackdown resulting in scores of arrests. Again, that information just in to our newsroom.

Still ahead, outrage across the country to the not-guilty verdict of George Zimmerman. Some believe race was a deciding factor, and they are demanding justice. We're going to discuss what's behind the racially charged fallout next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: George Zimmerman's acquittal in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin has certainly struck a raw nerve. Both prosecutors and defense attorneys said the murder trial was not about race. Yet thousands of protesters see it differently. Now that Zimmerman has been found not guilty.

Let's bring in our panel. We have political science and law professor, Carol Swain, of Vanderbilt University, and attorney, Khary Lazarre-White, executive director and co-founder of the Brotherhood Sister of Soul, which provides support and enrichment programs for underprivileged youth.

This is not an easy discussion to have. And I want to talk to you both frankly about the fact that we're seeing quite a disconnect between what we saw in the courtroom and what we're seeing on the streets and what we're hearing in social media. There's an absolute disconnect. Were people watching and experiencing two different things?

(CROSSTALK)

KHARY LAZARRE-WHITE, ATTORNEY & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CO-FOUNDER, BROTHERHOOD SISTER OF SOUL: I don't think it's so much that people were experiencing two different things as that there's one lens of what happens in the courtroom and another lens of what people see in terms of morality and ethics and what should happen in regard to a black boy walking down the street on his way home and he was killed for doing nothing but walking down the street on his way home. And that very simple reality is something that strikes so many --

CAROL SWAIN, POLITICAL SCIENCE & LAW PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: But the reality --

LAZARRE-WHITE: -- people and produces rage and anger.

If I can finish the point, I think, as we look at that issue, it's also very hard to look at this case not within the context of a long history of black boys and young men who have died in this country and been killed and the legal system has not provided any type of recourse for our community.

PEREIRA: Carol, your reaction?

SWAIN: What I find is that, in America, blacks and whites perceive two different realities. And it's very unfortunate, with this administration, it seems that people do want to fan the flames of racism. Had race not been a major factor, I don't believe charges would have been brought. And of those people marching and screaming in the streets, I seriously doubt if very few of them actually watched the hearings. I mean, if very many of them watched the hearings.

PEREIRA: So, Carol, to that point, what do you say to those that are angry with the verdict?

SWAIN: I think that this is a teachable moment to explain how the criminal justice system works. If anything, Trayvon -- this particular case had a jury that would have been sympathetic towards the prosecution. At times, the judge seemed sympathetic towards the prosecution, and George Zimmerman had a tough road to climb. And I think the fact that they were able to reach a not-guilty verdict, given all the pressure, that the jury should be commended, and that the rest of us should turn our focus to educating people about how the criminal justice system works and also not using political correctness to prevent us from actually discussing all the factors involving Trayvon Martin. He was not some innocent child. There was every evidence that he was a young man, like many of our young black men, that was headed in the wrong direction. So we need to focus on -- (CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: I want to ask Khary something. You talk about the teachable end, Carol, I want to ask Khary about that.

You work with underprivileged youth. I'm curious what the kids are coming to you and saying that you work with and what you are telling them. You want to be careful, as Carol is mentioning, to not mix emotion with the courtroom verdict. Do you see what I mean?

LAZARRE-WHITE: I think that emotion is intertwined with the courtroom verdict.

PEREIRA: True.

LAZARRE-WHITE: So I think that to the previous points, I couldn't disagree more. I think that race clearly runs through this case. And that when we're talking to young people, their fear is that they see in Trayvon Martin their own reality and their own experience. And the fact that Trayvon Martin was on the wrong path, according to the other panelist, I think is a very, very dangerous statement to make. The path he was on --

(CROSSTALK)

SWAIN: There's every evidence that he was.

(CROSSTALK)

SWAIN: There's every evidence he was.

LAZARRE-WHITE: He was walking down the street and on his way to see his family and he was killed for that reason. And so --

SWAIN: That's ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

LAZARRE-WHITE: -- look at the legal reality around the situation. At the end of the day, this is a black boy, a black child on his way home, and he's now dead. And I think that we have to use that as a teachable moment. We have to look at the criminal justice system and we also look at the reality that race and racism in America is a reality that's been in this country since its founding. We've come to terms with it in some ways. We also have a very long path to walk.

PEREIRA: Carol, why do you think it's ridiculous?

SWAIN: Everything is not about race. And if you look at all the facts in this case, everything, you know, it's been very sympathetic towards Trayvon Martin. I commend his parents because they really have been exemplaries of how we would want parents to respond in this type of situation.

This is not the 1950s. Blacks do get justice in America, despite the Justice Department now seemingly, it's at least contemplating intervening in this case where the state courts have rendered a decision. This Justice Department of the U.S. should not be intervening in cases just because they don't get the politically correct decision that they want. They should be teaching the American people about the jury system, about the criminal justice system, and about things that work well. And we should --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: So, Carol, you don't believe that they should pursue a civil suit or a civil rights case here?

SWAIN: I don't -- I'm not discussing the civil -- no, I don't believe they should pursue a civil rights case. I think that what they should be doing is staying out of this case. And what the rest of us should be doing is focusing on the high black-on-black crimes, the young black men that are just murdered every day in Chicago and cities around the nation. We need to find out why black lives are devalued by black people. We don't need to focus on one case and make it be about black and white when it's not about black and white.

PEREIRA: OK.

SWAIN: It's a case about two minorities. One got killed and --

PEREIRA: They are pushing us out the door. We have to go.

I want to say thank you both to both of you. This is obviously a conversation that continues -- could continue for some time and should continue, to be honest.

Carol Swain and Khary Lazarre-White, that you so much to the both of you. Very passionate comments. We appreciate it.

LAZARRE-WHITE: Thank you.

PEREIRA: All right, that's it for us here. Thank you so much for watching.

NEWSROOM continues with Wolf Blitzer after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR: Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

The George Zimmerman verdict is in, but the whole saga is far from closed. In fact, we expect the attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder, to talk about the verdict and the investigation in a major speech he's getting ready to deliver this hour. We expect it to begin in about 30 minutes. We'll have live coverage.