Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Flood Of Reaction And Emotion Continue To Stem From Zimmerman Verdict

Aired July 15, 2013 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Ruben, why do you think that this case is so emotional?

RUBEN NAVARRETTE JR., WASHINGTON POST WRITERS GROUP: Because it plays into an existing narrative that a lot of people have that the criminal justice system opportunity work for African-Americans and that when African-Americans step into a courtroom, more times than not throughout our history, it has not gone well. Justice has not been served.

The problem, I think, in this case is nobody knows what happens on -- happened that particular night in Sanford, Florida, on February 26 of last year. Other than one person who's gone, one person who didn't testify in his own trial. And we have also the peculiar nature of the Florida law, the stand your ground law. These seem to be very specific things. My problem is when we take this and make it global, it suddenly becomes about the contempt that people have for African- American men in particular in our society. If you want to go from here to there, it's a long way home. I don't think we can get there.

BALDWIN: Here's the "but" that some people are pointing out, the fact that obviously this is an incredibly tragic story, even the president pointing that out and saying, listen, the jury has spoken. Please, peace.

The fact that there are many young African-Americans who are killed, you look at Chicago, for example. Each and every weekend dozens of young African-Americans are killing other young African-Americans.

Why not the same level of outrage, rallying in Chicago?

BUCK DAVIS, DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION EXPERT: Well, I have a perspective on the emotion that I see playing out in America.

I think there needs to be more education around the justice system. It's a very complicated system, and what I found over the last year following this trial is that our justice system is really not all about the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

What I think the justice system is about is scraping up as much evidence as you can find and creating the most compelling story.

Now, for us outsiders who are not legal analysts, we're watching, and we're not scrutinizing all the information. We're not being able to see every piece of the evidence. So what happens is, in the absence of information, we will plug in our own story.

And if I have been routinely seen as a racist, then I'll plug that story in. If I have been the victim of racism, I'll plug that story in.

When enough people share that same story, then there is a ground swell of emotion, and if it's channeled in the right direction, it is productive, and it can create change.

And if it's unleashed, it can create chaos. That is the trajectory.

MO IVORY, RADIO HOST, "THE MO IVORY SHOW": The reason -- your question about Chicago, the reason why Chicago doesn't -- why don't we care about black boys killing each other or killing people in the street?

We do care about it. There are numerous organizations, of course, civil rights organizations across this country working on this problem in Chicago.

The president addressed this problem in Chicago. It's not that we don't care about it.

BALDWIN: But it doesn't seem to be the same.

IVORY: Because the media doesn't pick up on it the same way.

BALDWIN: Is it -- I hear you. I hear you. I hear you. As a member of the media, people are saying it's the media. It's the media.

Other people are saying what about the Reverend Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons? They're potentially heading and are really playing a prominent role as a leader in the African-American community when it comes to what happened in Sanford.

Then you have tweets from folks like Britt Hume of Fox News, "The continued prominence of Al Sharpton is one of the wonders of the world, simply amazing;" Ben Ferguson, conservative radio host, "Jesse Jackson is a pathetic race baiter. He's calling for calmness while screaming about a race war and real justice being served. Sick man."

IVORY: This is what we do, though. We attack the person, right? Instead of the problem.

BALDWIN: Let's attack the problem.

IVORY: Attack the problem. Stop attacking the person.

This isn't about Jesse Jackson. This isn't about Al Sharpton. This really isn't even about the countless kids killed in Chicago.

This is about the mothers out on the street every day trying to bring attention to their child. There are a thousand Sybrina Fultons, a thousand Tracy Martins.

We don't pay attention to black life like we do white life. This story is sensational because it was a white Hispanic man and let's --

BALDWIN: White Hispanic?

IVORY: Yes. Let's make that distinction because we want to brush over that so quickly, that he's Hispanic, so it's two minorities.

He's a white Hispanic man that we all identified at first as white. We don't see George Zimmerman, the first thing in our minds --

BALDWIN: Whose fault is that?

IVORY: That's America's racist fault. That's America's racist fault because everything is about the lines of racism in America.

And if we don't ever start to have the real conversation --

BALDWIN: David Webb. David Webb is shaking his head.

IVORY: Hi, David.

BALDWIN: David Webb, jump in.

David is joining the conversation. He has now taken a seat in New York. Take a deep breathe, David Webb. Go ahead.

DAVID WEBB, CO-FOUNDER, NYC TEA PARTY: I don't know where to start, first of all.

No one's actually answered your question about why there is no outrage over what's going on in Chicago, over 77 dead, 24 wounded in the last few days since Wednesday, five killed in the last few days.

IVORY: Yes, I did.

WEBB: Nobody's answering that question.

IVORY: Yes, I did.

BALDWIN: Let him answer.

WEBB: To answer your question about the white Hispanic or your point about that, the same dynamic which produced George Zimmerman produced President Obama, but he's considered black.

The white Hispanic was something that was a media construct that was created to paint Zimmerman, because of his name Zimmerman, as white. If his name was Rodriguez we'd have a different picture.

As we now see his family, his members, his community, look at the town of Sanford for what it is, 48 percent white, 29 percent black, mixed race Hispanic about 11 percent and so on.

The dynamic falls under the facts. The fact is this was a tragedy. I think we can all agree with that --

BALDWIN: Yes. WEBB: -- that should never have happened.

But what has happened since then has been a travesty of trying to come to a predetermined outcome based on before the two actually interacted with each other. That's what the law was.

BALDWIN: How do you mean predetermined outcome?

WEBB: In Florida, you can charge under Florida law with bias which they also did not do. The FBI looked into the case. They found there was no racial profiling.

The DOJ can continue all they want, but they also have to meet the burden that was proven or disproven in the civil -- in the criminal trial.

So how do they go forward? They didn't charge where they didn't have a race based incident.

BALDWIN: So we hear from Mark O'Mara, saying this morning this wasn't about race. He sort of agreed with you talking about the education of the judicial system.

But let me go back to -- really this is to anyone. On the issue, you know, some folks are saying, you know, yes, justice has been done. Others obviously vehemently disagree with that.

I know that when this happened last February lawyers for Trayvon Martin's family, the Ben Crumps, were saying, listen, for months and months and months, we just need to have a judge and a jury. Let this play out.

It seems like now that it has, that verdict and that system hasn't been accepted. Is that fair?

IVORY No, I think that we have accepted the verdict. Except respecting it, accepting it and calling it what it is are very different things.

We can -- I accept the verdict. The system is what it is. The prosecution did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

BALDWIN: Do you think the system worked?

IVORY: The system is broken. A broken system can't work. A broken system can't fail somebody it was never built to protect.

WEBB: The system wasn't built to protect black people or white people.

IVORY: No, yes, it was. The system was built --

WEBB: Mo, you're putting forward the principle that it's to protect --

IVORY: That is why we are now going back and altering the drug laws and all that.

Wake up and deal with the reality of what is going on. We are dealing with our criminal justice system in our states every day and altering laws to make them more just and equal.

There's an overwhelming amount of black men in prison. There is an education-to-prison pipeline that is profitable in this nation that is run by corporate entities that are making money off putting black boys in jail.

IVORY: Great speech, Mo.

BALDWIN: David, respond in 20 seconds. We've got to move on.

WEBB: First of all, there's a failure of education-to-prison pipeline that you could probably establish. Education is something that's sorely lacking, especially in the inner city and the urban areas like Detroit, Chicago, Fifth Ward in Houston, Camden, New Jersey, and so on, where there are failure rates for blacks.

We have a country with a real -- frankly, a real crisis of epidemic proportions in certain communities, and its basis is economic and cultural. The prison system is another part of it, but not all of it.

BALDWIN: Let me put a pause there. We could have an entire show, I think, on the issues of prisons in our country.

I want to go back to specifically what's happened here with the 17- year-old who is gone and a man whose innocence is gone because he's walking free, but he's a feared man.

Much more on our race in America special, including the question, I know, that is on the mind of so many parents in America with kids who are black, who are 17 -- how do you talk to your kids, to your nephews, in the wake of what's happened over the weekend?

Let's talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We have seen the reaction on the streets to a jury finding George Zimmerman not guilty.

What about in your own home? What are African-American families taking away from this verdict? Especially those who have young men, sons, nephews.

Listen to what Charles Blow, a "New York Times" columnist, what he told CNN about talking to his own boys.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BLOW, "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST: I used to tell my boys, don't run because they may think you're suspicious. Actually now I have to say don't walk slowly. That also means that you may be suspicious. We have to figure out what is the pace for which a black man can walk in America and be beyond suspicion? That is a crazy conversation to have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The pace that a young black man can walk.

I want to bring in these three women, CNN legal analyst, former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin; also Jenny Hutt joins us. She's an attorney and Sirius radio talk show host; and Donna Brazile, our CNN political analyst. Ladies, welcome to all of you.

And, Sunny, let me just begin with you because you were sitting right there next to Charles, and also I know you have -- he's younger, but a 10-year-old son.

What do -- this is like the sparking of conversations I know across the country.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's interesting. My son's school did discuss the Trayvon Martin case, and so I didn't inject the case into our home.

I oftentimes don't talk about work at home with my children, but he asked me several questions about it.

He's away at sleep-away camp. I don't know that he knows what the verdict was. But I will tell you, as a mother of a brown boy, it has caused my husband and I to have this discussion.

What do we tell him now? Not only about the verdict, but about perhaps how he is perceived in the United States, how he may be perceived by other people

He is a very tall child. He's a thin boy. But I want to be able to advise him appropriately, Brooke, on how people perceive him, that perhaps, as I've often taught him, that they should perceive him by the content of his character.

Maybe they won't. Maybe they will still perceive him by the color of his skin, and he needs to be prepared for that.

And I think that's going to be a very difficult discussion, quite frankly, that I'm going to have with him this summer.

BALDWIN: That was a dream of Dr. King's, but clearly, it's tough. It's tough being a young black man according to a lot of people that I've been talking to.

Donna Brazile, what are you hearing? Just in communities around?

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, there's a lot of anger, disappointment, frustration, shock.

It's appalling, from the grocery store to the shopping centers that I've been to, to church, just sitting on my front porch and listening to young black boys, young black men, others describe their own emotions.

It goes back to the time when I heard my parents, both my mom and my dad, tell my brothers, my three brothers, how to conduct themselves.

Even though you're not a criminal, some people might assume you are, so watch what you wear. Watch what you say. When you're stopped by the police, be humble. Respect your dignity, your pride.

Hearing my parents tell my young brothers, now hearing my brothers with five young sons having to tell their sons, this must stop.

We need to allow black males, black females, whites, Hispanics, any child who wants to go to the grocery store to buy some fruit or candy, we should not profile them. We should not assume the worst.

We should treat every child that they're special. They're precious in the eyes of God.

And the notion that this young man was unarmed, was murdered, it has touched an emotion in everyone, including black women.

But also I've heard from my white female friends, it's touched them. It's touching my Hispanic friends.

BALDWIN: I see you nodding, Jenny. Jenny, go ahead.

JENNY HUTT, ATTORNEY AND SIRIUS TALK SHOW HOST: Yes. It has touched all of us. It certainly touched me.

I'm a white Jewish woman with two white children and this is heartbreaking. There's an expectation, a reasonable expectation that, we send our children out into the world, they're going to come home to us.

This sort of thing should not happen, should not have happened.

And like Sunny, my son's at sleep-away camp. I got to see him this past weekend. I said to him, I'm waiting for the Zimmerman verdict.

I got to tell you, I'm terribly disappointed as I think most of us are. It's horrible.

BALDWIN: Here's the other part of this. This was interesting.

I was hearing from a colleague on the show team. She was saying there are a lot of, you know, late-teens, early-20s African-American men who are saying to their parents, why is this case such a big deal? I have friends of pink, purple, green, black, blue color.

And the parents are having to sit them down and say, son, let me tell you something about civil rights and what has happened in this country. You cannot be color blind.

It seems like the younger generation to some extent is unaware. Have you all heard that at all?

HOSTIN: Absolutely, absolutely. When my son first came home to talk about this case, you know, I come from a multiracial background. And, you know, you sit around my table at Thanksgiving, you think you're at the United Nations.

So I have raised my children, perhaps wrongly now, to not see people by race, that we are all part of the human race, and that your race doesn't define you.

And I've got to tell you, I was stunned by the verdict, but I do think unfortunately now you have to have these discussions because it appears that we aren't living in this post-racial society because we have a black president.

We aren't living in a post racial society because, you know, you think that, perhaps, the civil rights movement was a long time ago.

Race is a real problem, and I think it took this case, quite frankly, Brooke, to open up my eyes to that.

When I was looking at this case and analyzing it, I was in Sanford, as you know. I was looking at it purely from a legal perspective, purely from the perspective of a former prosecutor. I did not think race was a part of this case.

And I think from the reaction that I've gotten, the hate mail that I've gotten, the angry tweets calling me a racist, I -- it was my naivety.

Race is very much an issue still in our country. Certainly I think it was an underlying factor in this case.

BALDWIN: Ladies, we're coming back to you. Sunny, Jenny, Donna, stand by.

Coming up, we're asking our other panel, the question is, can you profile without being racist? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Some revelations about George Zimmerman from his trial here, his brother says in the past Zimmerman mentored two American boys. His lawyer says he took a black girl to his high school prom.

And then there's this from an African-American woman who interned for Zimmerman's defense team, saying not racist at all.

Let me bring this panel back in, Mo Ivory, David Webb, Buck Davis, Ruben Navarrette.

I just want to go round-robin. Buck, let me just begin with you. The question is, can you profile without being racist?

DAVIS: Absolutely. We do it every day. We have normal, natural negative reactions to people who are different than us. It's just how we're built.

The key, though, is to not let your normal negative reactions influence your behavior.

George Zimmerman quite possibly is not a racist because a true racist, a purist racist would claim it. He would claim it and say, yes, I took him down. That was my point, and he would claim it.

We have racist thoughts, and those are us who are self-aware and try to manage our biases try to put a block on that.

So the key is to -- whatever happens in your head is fine. You just don't let it influence your behavior, like he did, and he came across looking like a racist because his thought, his words ended up in behaviors that left a young boy dead.

BALDWIN: Mo, do you agree?

IVORY: No, I don't agree at all. I think that you don't have to claim racism to be a racist.

I think there's subtle racism and there's overt racism, and I think all of us have a bit of racism inside of us.

For example, I might walk down the street and see three men walking towards me and think, should I crossover? Am I in a dangerous situation?

But then I check myself and I say, you know what?

DAVIS: What's the criteria? If you meet eight out of 10, you become a racist.

IVORY: But I don't think you have to scream I'm a racist in order to be identified as a racist.

DAVIS: There's a spectrum.

IVORY: There are a lot of people in America that are as racist as can be, and they would sit in your face and talk to you and -- but you would never get invited to their -- so I don't think we can just say that you can spot a racist because they like to boast that they're racists.

Racism can be very subtle. It can happen in a job interview. It can happen as a gas station. It can happen coming home from the 7-Eleven.

BALDWIN: Quick break. Want to hear from the other two here.

Quick break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Let me tell you, we have been talking about this through the commercial break.

Where we left off, can you profile without being racist?

Ruben, your answer?

NAVARRETTE: Yes. The answer is, yes, if you profile on behavior, on things that people do, not on their skin color, their race or ethnicity.

Right now in the state of Arizona, you have law enforcement officers who I would argue are profiling Latinos because they assume that by virtue of their skin color they're in the country illegally, under an immigration law.

I've got news for you. Some of those law enforcement officers in question are also African-American, so what do we do with that?

BALDWIN: David, final word, you answer the question.

WEBB: Profiling is not necessarily racist or negative. It's a tool to be used, as you just showed with law enforcement.

What I'm hearing is a lot of this low or no expectation when it comes to critical thinking.

What's being put forward is that you're racist, if you either do show it or don't show it, that it must be the thing that exists, and that is simply a false notion when it comes to our culture and to America.

We have problems with racism in this country. Not everything is related to racism, even if there is an element of racial difference involved.

And, again, Zimmerman half Hispanic, we've got to stop with this white Hispanic whatever. We're people. We're Americans. We have issues to address. We should recognize all facets of it, not just try to drive a narrative.

BALDWIN: David Webb, Ruben Navarrette, thank you both.

Coming up next, now with all of this said, an intelligent discussion, where do we go from here?

My ladies panel back after this, 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Donna Brazile, Sunny Hostin, Jenny Hutt, final question, something happens in this country, we debate it, we have these intelligent conversations and then what?

Donna Brazile, where do we go from here?

BRAZILE: We re-examine laws that might be misapplied in this case, but I still believe "stand your ground" law -- there's no place in our society.

Twenty-three states have enacted it, it's time our policymakers take a second look at it.

BALDWIN: Jenny Hutt, what's the takeaway?

HUTT: Yeah, and I think we keep having this dialogue about real equality.

There shouldn't be racial profiling. It's disgusting. It's enough already.

And Sunny's right. Our kids today tend to be color blind, which is the right way to be.

BALDWIN: Sunny Hostin, I feel like we have, though, these debates. These things happen.

Do debates, do conversation, does that take us anywhere? Do we move forward to the content of one's character instead of the color of the skin, as you were quoting Dr. King?

HOSTIN: I'd like to think so. I'd like to think that perhaps that is the one good thing that comes from this trial that we are talking and that we can sort of move forward and perhaps reexamine "stand your ground," perhaps re-examine racial profiling, acknowledge that there is an issue and acknowledge that we can change and we can progress.

Talking about it is the very beginning.

BALDWIN: Sunny Hostin, Jenny Hutt, Donna Brazile, thank you very much as we discuss what's in the minds and in the hearts of so many Americans because of these two little words we heard over the weekend, "not guilty."

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thanks for being with me here as we took a look at race in America.

And now we take you to Washington. Jake Tapper starts now.