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Moments Before Gunshot Most Important; Juror Says Race Never Came Up; Obama Urged to Act on Racial Tension

Aired July 16, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: For weeks, Americans debated what the jurors were thinking in the George Zimmerman trial, and now we know. You're about to hear a juror's candid revelations about the legal teams, about the turning point, and why this decision left them in tears.

I'm Brook Baldwin. The news is now.

The prosecution's star witness talks to CNN about race, slurs, and facing down six jurors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RACHEL JEANTEL, TRAYVON MARTIN'S FRIEND: The jury's so shocked what I said, and they're acting like the generation we got now don't say that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Plus, fears of escalating violence after one of the world's most notorious gang leaders is captured.

And --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm pretty sure it's (ph) afraid of the lake.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She don't want to come near it. She didn't want to touch it. She didn't want to have anything to do with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The hardest part of recovering from the Boston Marathon bombings -- life at home.

And here we go. Good to see you on this Tuesday. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

You know the Zimmerman verdict is in. The key players are talking. We have heard candid words from both the prosecution and the defense and from the prosecution's controversial star witness, Rachel Jeantel.

But then there's this. There are the revelations from juror B-37 about just what went on in the lead-up to that not guilty verdict late Saturday night. We will play that full interview, that exclusive interview coming up for you.

We also know this. Attorney General Eric Holder, who just reaffirmed that the Department of Justice is resuming an investigation into the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, is set to speak this afternoon at the NAACP's annual convention. So far he has been pretty quiet on the prospect of additional charges against George Zimmerman.

And protests, they have continued. They are happening across the country. You see these folks, this is Atlanta. These folks are chanting "no justice, no peace." Reverend Al Sharpton reaffirming his calls today for vigils to be held in 100 cities across the country this coming weekend.

But before we break all of this down, also developing this hour, a North Korean freighter has caused a major to do in the Panama Canal. Authorities say the crew turned violent during a drug inspection and the captain had a heart attack and tried to commit suicide. And then buried amid stacks of sugar, authorities found undeclared weapons, possibly missiles, which North Korea is barred from buying under U.N. sanctions. That ship, by the way, was heading to North Korea from Cuba.

Edward Snowden has reportedly asked Russia for temporary asylum as he seeks a way to settle in, in one of the Latin American countries known for opposing Washington. The leaker of national security secrets voided an earlier plea for asylum after Russian President Vladimir Putin said he'd have to stop harming America. One of his contacts says that Snowden is still sitting on secrets that would damage the U.S. government if released.

And if you are sitting outside watching this, sorry for you, folks, you are feeling the heat today. Temperatures along the northeast through parts of the Midwest are climbing into the 90s. Combine that fun with the high humidity and it feels sauna-esque out there. New York City hotter than parts of Texas today. Ouch.

But back to this verdict here, not guilty. This juror, B-37, mother of two adult children, married for 20 years. She has now reversed one decision, writing a book on her experience deliberating the Zimmerman case. We're hearing she's now choosing against that. And she changed her mind in the hours after she gave CNN's Anderson Cooper an exclusive sit-down interview. Here's one of the most telling moments of that night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUROR B37, ZIMMERMAN TRIAL JUROR: And his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm. He had a right. That's how we read the law. That's how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, "AC 360": Whether it was George Zimmerman getting out of the vehicle, whether he was right to get out of the vehicle, whether he was a want-to-be cop, whether he was over eager, none of that, in the final analysis, mattered? What mattered was those seconds before the shot went off, did George Zimmerman fear for his life?

JUROR B37: Exactly. That's exactly what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And that is just one piece of an incredibly compelling interview that Anderson conducted. We will replay the entire sit down interview with juror B-37 for you next hour, do not miss that, beginning at the top of the hour.

But first I want to get to just some legal analysis here based upon what the juror told Anderson last night. Joining me now, two legal minds, criminal defense attorneys Darren Kavinoky and Tanya Miller. So, welcome back to both of you.

DARREN KAVINOKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Darren, you get to kick things off because all of this talk about, you know, Zimmerman getting out of the car and following this teenager. It sounds like, from this juror, what it really came down to were those final moments when Zimmerman felt threatened. Do you think that was because the case or the evidence was weak or because the defense was just -- did a really great job?

KAVINOKY: Well, I think both of those things were a factor. I think the prosecution made some critical missteps in their presentation of the case. The most grievous of which was choosing to play Zimmerman's interviews early on, relatively speaking, in their case, which removed the need for Zimmerman himself to take the stand and removed any opportunity for them to do a vigorous cross examination, which would have cleaned up some of the mistakes that happened early on in the investigation. But, you know, this was a case with so many opportunities, so many times I should say when the prosecution snatched defeat from what could have been the jaws of victory.

BALDWIN: I want to get back to sort of this point you're making, also just about multiple witnesses. It seemed like the defense continued to win even though they were state witnesses. I want to play a little bit more sound in a moment. But, Tanya, what was your biggest take away?

TANYA MILLER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My biggest take away was that she seemed to completely identify with George Zimmerman. She was completely sympathetic to George Zimmerman and really didn't express very much sympathy toward Trayvon Martin. I was surprised to hear her say that Trayvon Martin was just as responsible for his own death as George Zimmerman was when Trayvon Martin was an unarmed teenager walking home and it was George Zimmerman who got out of the car, confronted him, and ultimately shot him in the heart with that .9 millimeter handgun.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes. It was Anderson who asked, you know, do you feel sympathy for -- did you feel sympathy for Trayvon Martin? And she -- she never said yes, she just actually said both. I feel sympathy for both. And I think it really -- MILLER: That was shocking.

BALDWIN: Shocking, I know, to a number of people. But I think a lot of this gets down to the jurors, Darren to your point, you know, believing Zimmerman with the, you know, the police interrogation interviews they played at the crime scene walk through, as you mentioned, he never took the stand over, you know, much of the prosecution evidence.

KAVINOKY: Right.

BALDWIN: Let me -- let me play another snippet. Again, this is juror B-37.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUROR B37: I think George Zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods and wanting to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he really should have done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So let's continue. She --

KAVINOKY: Yes.

BALDWIN: You hear her say, she -- you know, I feel like there's this acknowledgment that what he did was wrong. You know, he should perhaps not have followed Trayvon Martin, but ultimately it came down to self- defense.

KAVINOKY: But, look, Brooke, she says -- when she says his heart was in the right place, let's be clear because Twitter has actually blown up on me on this one point.

BALDWIN: Yes.

KAVINOKY: I believe what she is referring to is the neighborhood watch activity, that his heart was in the right place in terms of wanting to keep his neighborhood safe. But one of the most -- to my mind, one of the really glaring legal errors is that she boot strapped that to Detective Serino's testimony that she found him credible, that Serino found George Zimmerman believable and truthful, and that was something the judge specifically told the jurors to disregard and yet that came out in her interview as being something important about Zimmerman and the juror's findings about his credibility.

BALDWIN: Well, here you have this lead detective in this case, right, I mean, and this person, ultimately, in the end, seemed to be testifying more on behalf of the defense. We were all watching, right, the state's witness that day and were sort of blown away in the idea, Tanya, that jurors could just go home and scrub that from their minds is kind of impossible.

MILLER: Yes. I mean that's why you always say, it's very difficult to unring a bell once it's been rung. I mean you ask the jury to disregard what they heard, but that was really egregious testimony on behalf of this detective who should have, frankly, known better than to vouch for the credibility of the defendant. Detectives can't ordinarily say, I believe the defendant is a liar. They certainly know that they can't say, I believe the defendant is telling the truth.

BALDWIN: Darren Kavinoky, we'll see you at the end of next hour after we play this entire juror B-37 interview. We can post game that a little bit. Tanya Miller, thank you very much.

Coming up next, another CNN exclusive interview. This one has gotten a lot of you talking. It's the prosecution's star witness, Rachel Jeantel. We watched her as a state witness, you know, over two different days. Last night, huge get for Piers Morgan. She talked exclusively to CNN. We'll bring in a panel to talk about her use of racial slurs and her thoughts on the jury. Do not miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: She is the prosecution witness who almost got as much attention, both good and bad, as George Zimmerman himself. I'm talking about Rachel Jeantel. From her casual use of the phrase "creepy ass cracker," to her visible frustration with Defense Attorney Don West in the courtroom, she was definitely not a wall flower witness.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANTEL: I had told you -- you listening?

DON WEST, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, ma'am.

JEANTEL: I had told you what happened to me in Crump interview. I had rush (ph) on it (ph). Are you listening?

WEST: Maybe we can break until the morning if that would be --

JEANTEL: No. I'm being (ph) done today.

WEST: What's that, I'm sorry?

JEANTEL: I'm leaving today.

WEST: Are you refusing to come back tomorrow?

JEANTEL: To you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that was Rachel Jeantel in the courtroom a couple weeks ago. But last night, in an interview with Piers Morgan, some say we saw a different side of Jeantel, more animated, more relaxed, but just as controversial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIERS MORGAN, CNN HOST, "PIERS MORGAN LIVE": Don West gave you a very hard time, the defense attorney.

JEANTEL: Hmm, Don West.

MORGAN: What is your -- what is your view of him?

JEANTEL: Mm-mm-mm. I'm going to have to say, he lucky I'm a Christian.

Weed, you say marijuana.

MORGAN: Uh-huh.

JEANTEL: Well, in my area, we say weed. My area, weed for Trayvon, I can explain one thing, weed don't do -- make him go crazy, it just make him go hungry.

Look at the picture. There is blonde females. Mind you, where we live, where everybody live, blondes are dumb. They say dumb things. So that's some dumb blondes. And I really don't care. To me, I want to (ph) --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, Robert Franklin, former president of Morehouse College, Emily Miller, senior opinion writer of "The Washington Times," and Lauren Ashburn, "Daily Download" founder, "Daily Beast" contributor. Welcome to all of you.

Before we all chat, we saw a glimpse of this, but one of the things a lot of people are talking about today was Rachel Jeantel's use -- casual use if I may -- of racial language. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANTEL: Nigger.

MORGAN: Why?

JEANTEL: People -- the whole word I say is a racist word. Mind you, mind you around 2 -- 2 -- 2000 that was not -- they change it around, I think. It start spelling it n-i-g-g-a. Nigga.

MORGAN: What does that mean to you, that way of spelling it? What does that word mean to you?

JEANTEL: That mean a male.

MORGAN: A black male?

JEANTEL: No, any kind of male.

MORGAN: Black or white?

JEANTEL: Black -- any kind. Chinese can say nigga. That's my chino nigga. They could say that.

MORGAN: And rappers and everything use it in their music and that's what they mean?

JEANTEL: They use it. Yes. But nigger or nigger, I advise you not to be by black people because they're not going to have it like that.

MORGAN: Why?

JEANTEL: Because that's a racist word.

MORGAN: They're two different words and they have different meanings in your community?

JEANTEL: Yes. No, in a generation, 2000 --

MORGAN: To young people you mean?

JEANTEL: Not young people. Old people use that, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I just want to have a discussion. Let's begin with this language.

And, Dr. Franklin, I want to begin with you just because you've been the president of a college for a number of years. You've, you know, worked with a lot of young people. Her casual use of the racial slurs, what does society make of this? What do you make of this?

ROBERT FRANKLIN, FORMER PRESIDENT, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE: Well, I find it interesting that this young woman, who in many ways is very naive but also at times sophisticated as she tries to explain the use of language in her cohort who --

BALDWIN: She's earnestly trying to explain?

FRANKLIN: Indeed. And I think she's reaching out so that others will understand what she means as she employs this language. Ultimately, I think this really signals the need for all of us to have a different kind of conversation and we need a national dialogue about race and about culture because we're rapidly approaching the time when there will be no majority in America and all of these young people will be the citizens leading our communities forward.

BALDWIN: We are trying. Hopefully this is the beginning of something larger. Lauren Ashburn, you know, you hear Rachel Jeantel. And, you know, a lot of people are saying, look, this is a generational thing, this language. She says, no. She says young folks, old folks use, you know, the "n" word. The fact that the "n" word ending in an "a" to her is a word that describes a male of any race? Should society just accept that?

LAUREN ASHBURN, DAILY DOWNLOAD FOUNDER, DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: I think what she is trying to do, and -- is really explain, as you said, what is happening on her level. However, that word has such negative connotations in -- and white people, and people of other races have been vilified for using it. And so it gets confusing when someone is allowed to say it and then someone else isn't allowed to say it. And I think that, you're right, the dialogue in America has to happen. If you Google "race in America," you get hundreds and hundreds of articles, symposiums from the University of Pittsburgh to the Aspen Institute, all of which are trying to make this issue go away.

BALDWIN: In terms of race, I know, Emily, you disagree with Rachel Jeantel. Rachel Jeantel says, you know, race was, of course, a factor in this case. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANTEL: You know, it was racial. Let's be honest. Racial. If he were white -- if he was white -- if Trayvon was white and he had a hoodie on, would that happen? Because (INAUDIBLE) that was around 7:00 or something. That's around that (INAUDIBLE) people walk their dogs, people still outside, all that.

MORGAN: The jury -- there was a juror tonight who made it clear that the jury never really discussed race as being a motivating factor here.

JEANTEL: Imagine. They're white. Well, one -- one Hispanic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, was that a common belief on the jury, that race was not -- that race did not play a role in this?

JUROR B37: I think all of us thought race did not play a role.

COOPER: So nobody felt race played a role?

JUROR B37: I don't think so.

COOPER: None of the jurors?

JUROR B37: I can't speak for them. I'm not their voice.

COOPER: You -- that wasn't part of the discussion in the jury room?

JUROR B37: No. No. We never had that discussion.

COOPER: It didn't come up, what, that the question of, did George Zimmerman profile Trayvon Martin because he was African-American?

JUROR B37: No. I think he just profiled him because he was the neighborhood watch and he profiled anybody that came in acting strange. I think it was just circumstances happened that he saw Trayvon at that exact time that he thought he was suspicious.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, Emily, you and many, many other Americans agree with what we just heard from juror B-37. This was a case of simple self-defense. And you say, and many others say, this should have never even gone to trial, correct?

EMILY MILLER, SENIOR OPINION EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Yes. That's right. I mean let's just look at the facts of the case. The lead detective on the case, and the police, and the FBI did an investigation last year whether this was related to race. The lead detective said it had nothing to do with race.

When Zimmerman called 911, he didn't report this being a black person. He said, he's someone wearing a hoodie. And the emergency caller said, can you tell race? And he said, I think black. I mean, there's absolutely nothing to do with this. This is being fanned by people like Jesse Jackson or Charlie Rangel or at times Barack Obama by saying, you know, Trayvon Martin looked like the son I never had. And now the Justice Department, under Attorney General Holder, are saying we're going to look into this. It's being fanned, but the facts of the case, as the jury decided them, as the prosecution pursued this case, everyone -- no one has ever said race came into it. And just look at the facts.

ASHBURN: But wait --

BALDWIN: But then what is it about this case, when you look at the folks on the street and, listen, we have this conversation, a lot of people on both sides I think just saw the headlines initially, had a preconceived notion going into it, didn't even get into the weeds and follow this trial and came out believing what they believed initially. Are you following me? I mean I feel like there is clearly -- and it's not always simmering -- but there is such anger and rage and frustration in this country. And if you look at any of the -- either Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman, they represent so much more than just two individuals.

ASHBURN: But, Brooke, let's talk about profiling for a minute. You have six people who are white on this jury and people are saying if there had been African-Americans on this jury, that the result would have been different.

BALDWIN: Right.

ASHBURN: Isn't that profiling?

MILLER: But would the result have been different? Would the result --

ASHBURN: Isn't that profiling?

MILLER: Wait, wait, but would the results have been -- first of all, that's a complete hypothetical. The jury has spoken. Even Barack Obama has said, the president of the United States has said the jury has spoken, so let's not question that hypothetical. However, are you saying that by putting a black person on the jury we would have found him guilty even though he was not? I mean that -- do we really want to screw around with the justice system --

ASHBURN: I'm not saying that. I say that. I'm saying that other people are saying that. BALDWIN: Let me -- let me -- let me -- let me stop both of you ladies. With all due respect, let me stop both of you right there because there are lots of hypotheticals we could throw around, and they have been thrown around. But I am glad you brought up the president because this is something -- actually Dr. Franklin and I were tweeting about this last night. Many people have also written about this because the president stepped into this a little bit last year when he talked about, you know, had one of his sons -- one of his sons would look like Trayvon Martin. Should the president lead a conversation, a national conversation that we're talking about, when it comes to race? We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Did you find it hard at times to understand what she was saying?

JUROR B37: A lot of the times, because a lot of the times she was using phrases I have never heard before and what they meant.

COOPER: When she used the phrase "creepy ass cracker" --

JUROR B37: Uh-huh.

COOPER: What did you think of that?

JUROR B37: I thought it was probably the truth. I think Trayvon probably said that.

COOPER: And did you see that as a negative statement or a racial statement as the defense suggested?

JUROR B37: I don't think it's really racial. I think it's just everyday life. The type of life that they live and how they're living in the environment that they're living in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was the voice of juror B-37 speaking in shadow with Anderson Cooper, talking about what she thought of the prosecution witness here, Rachel Jeantel.

Back with me, Robert Franklin, former president at Morehouse College, Emily Miller, senior opinion writer for "The Washington Times," and Lauren Ashburn, "Daily Download" founder and "Daily Beast" contributor.

So, the issue of race in the Zimmerman trial clearly struck a chord with a lot of people in this country. So I want to talk about where we go from here. So let me play this sound bite. This was from President Obama last year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon. And, you know, I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and that we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Dr. Franklin, I defer to you first. You came on the show yesterday. We continued the dialogue for the rest of the evening. When it comes to one idea that can take us forward, you suggested possibly President Obama could lead a conversation on race. How could that happen?

FRANKLIN: I think President Obama should seize this moment and begin a conversation about race. The attorney general's already told the NAACP and the deltas in Washington, D.C., that we need a national conversation on race. And I think who better to lead the conversation.

Go back and listen to the March 2008 speech that President Obama, then Senator Obama, delivered titled "a more perfect union." And he talks about the generosity and decency of Americans. He holds together his white grandmother and Reverend Jeremiah Wright. He's engaged in some very important work that, as a nation, we need to do as we move to reconciliation.

BALDWIN: How does he do that? How does he do that, as the first African-American president, you know not take a side but almost rise above?

FRANKLIN: He can rise above. President Clinton did it with the race initiative. Appointing credible people to lead that forward. Dr. John Hope Franklin (ph) did it before. Dean Chris Edley (ph), all sorts of great people who could do that today for him.

In addition, I just returned from South Africa --

BALDWIN: Right.

FRANKLIN: Where I paid homage to President Nelson Mandela --

BALDWIN: Mandela.

FRANKLIN: Standing outside that hospital. Look at what that one president did for South Africa. He created a truth and reconciliation commission and led a national conversation. And I have to tell you, Brooke, there were white former security guards who protected Mandela who were out in the street alongside young black people and others grieving and hoping for Mandela's restoration. So, President Obama can do this. He's very skillful, very smart and has a personal biography that the nation needs now.

BALDWIN: As I listen to you, Emily Miller, I'm just curious of your thoughts because I'm reminded -- I was finding myself reading last night about that beer (ph) summit, remember, in 2009 --

MILLER: Of course.

BALDWIN: And, you know, the uproar over the racial profiling in Henry Lewis Gates and that Cambridge Police officer and, you know --

MILLER: And he was wrong. Obama jumped into that case, threw down the race card and once again he was wrong. This is the second time he has done it.

I don't even know why we're talking about Nelson Mandela and apartheid. This is the United States of America. We do not have apartheid. We do not need reconciliation. We have not had any kind of laws like this. I mean this is the president fanning these flames.

FRANKLIN: But young people -- young people, Emily, are being killed because of the (INAUDIBLE) inability to empathize with young black male lives.

MILLER: You people have every opportunity -- no, sir, that is -- that is totally irresponsible of you to say. Trayvon Martin was killed because Zimmerman -- he turned around and started beating the crap out of Zimmerman and tried to kill him. Zimmerman thought his life was as --

FRANKLIN: Why did he turn around? Because he was being pursued by a dangerously unprepared --

MILLER: Pursued? He was being followed. And he was not hurt. He --

FRANKLIN: Well intentioned young man. And I'll give him that.

ASHBURN: I think we're supposed to be having a conversation about race. Aren't we supposed to be having a conversation about race --

MILLER: Well, we should. But by point, Brooke --

ASHBURN: And not fighting about what happened in the past?

MILLER: Well, Brooke --

ASHBURN: If the conversation is supposed to be about race, then we need to have it in a civil way, Emily.