Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Whitey Bulger Trial Continues; Ex-CIA Base Chief Arrested in Panama

Aired July 18, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: It's an image getting a lot of attention, Martin Luther King Jr. in a hoodie. You're about to hear from his niece, who says shame on them.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN (voice-over): As the extreme heat blankets America, thousands forced to leave everything behind as flames erupt.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Were you surprised at his demeanor 72 hours before those bombings?

JOHN ALLAN, GYM OWNER: Unbelievable.

BALDWIN: Did the feds miss clues involving the Boston bombing suspects? CNN speaks with one man who knew them.

Plus, today is the day. Whitey Bulger's hit man takes the stand and faces the reputed Boston mob boss.

And a mom and her 4-year-old daughter diagnosed with cancer within days of one another.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're in a better position because we all can be together.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thanks for sticking with me.

Got to begin with what's happening in Boston today, this bizarre twist in the trial of reputed South Boston mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger. This potentially key witness named Stephen Rakes who claimed Bulger shook him down, took his liquor store to use as a base of operation, this man has now been found dead on a roadside in Lincoln, Massachusetts.

At this point, we don't know how Rakes died. There were no obvious signs of trauma on his body. This is according to the district attorney's office. But Rakes had waited decades for the chance to testify against Whitey Bulger. News of his death comes on the exact same day that Stephen "The Rifleman" Flemmi took the stand coming face to face with his former partner, Whitey Bulger, for the first time in 20 years.

I want to bring in "Boston Globe" columnist Kevin Cullen, who's been in the courtroom, wrote a book, co-authored a book on Whitey Bulger, covering the trial, tweeting every colorful moment. And there have been many colorful moments, Mr. Cullen. Also John "Red" Shea used to be a member of Whitey Bulger's Winter Hill gang.

Guys, welcome to both of you.

Kevin, first to you. You have been in and out of this courtroom for every single bit of this. I want to get to this color, because Flemmi mouthed as the jury as was leaving a phrase I can't mention on television directly to Whitey Bulger. Tell me about that and just how the tone has been in the courtroom.

KEVIN CULLEN, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": Well, one thing, Stephen Flemmi speaks very fast.

And he came right out of the box. We only got 10 minutes of Flemmi. It was sort of like just a taste of him for tomorrow. But what he did say, Brooke, that was very significant was that Whitey Bulger was an informant. And when Fred Wyshak asked how do you know he was informant, he basically said, well, I was an informant, too. And I met with -- we always met with John Connolly, our handler, and John Connolly was introduced to me by Whitey Bulger.

BALDWIN: But there were curse words being mouthed between right Flemmi and Bulger. This wasn't the first time in the courtroom.

CULLEN: Yes. I will tell you, Brooke. These guys from Southie should have their mouths washed out with soap, because they drop the F-bombs. It sounds more like a locker room than a courtroom in there.

I think my impression of what happened today is that Whitey was taken aside at a sidebar. It wasn't done in a public courtroom. It was done probably after his outburst with Kevin Weeks a couple weeks ago, because that was the second time he threw the F-bomb around at a witness. I think he was cautioned one more of those and I'm going to hold you in contempt, because today he was just mouthing the words and Stevie was mouthing it back.

And given that this is 3:00 in the afternoon Eastern Standard Time, I don't think I can say the word.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: We're not going to go there, my friend. We're not going to go there.

Red, let me go to you, because back to Stephen Rakes who was found dead on a roadside, do you know him? Do you know his Southie family?

JOHN "RED" SHEA, FORMER MOBSTER: Yes, I knew him and the family, sure.

BALDWIN: What do you know about his family? SHEA: You know, obviously -- obviously it's a tragedy, what happened to this guy. My condolences go out to his family. I mean, here's a guy that was allegedly -- I wasn't there shaken down -- for his liquor store, him and his family with his children present.

That's basically it. They took his liquor store because they wanted to have it and have -- make the money off of it.

BALDWIN: When we say shake down, Red Shea, what do we mean by that?

SHEA: Going in and saying, hey, you got an ultimatum. You either take this or, you know, you know where you end up.

BALDWIN: Why liquor stores? What was the role of liquor stores in mob boss culture?

SHEA: It was -- it was -- well, the liquor store was a base for them to clean and wash their money, of course. So they could say, hey, this is where I work, legitimate job and all that stuff, too, to go along with it.

BALDWIN: Kevin, you have been following this each and every day.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me go to Kevin real quickly.

You have been following this each and every day. What has been -- as I mentioned, you wrote the book. In just a couple of words, what has it been like watching these people?

CULLEN: Well, I mean, it's sort of like history unfolding in front of us. And some of it we know, and some of it we don't.

But I just add one thing on Steve Rakes, Stippo, as we knew him. He was a good guy. When I last talked to him Tuesday, he had just -- I talked to him before he found out. But he found out on Tuesday he was not going to testify.

And he was very close to Steve Davis, whose sister Debbie was one of Whitey's victims. Steve Davis told me that Steve Rakes was very upset Tuesday night when he was going home. And when Steve Davis called him yesterday, he didn't call him back. And Stippo always called Stevie Davis back. Stevie knew something was wrong. He told me he went by the house in Quincy today. And nobody was there. Then we found out about an hour later that they had found Stippo's body yesterday in Lincoln.

BALDWIN: Kevin, let me ask you about Stippo. If you were just on the phone with him on Tuesday -- and we don't know yet how he died...

CULLEN: No, I saw him at the court.

BALDWIN: You saw him at the court.

CULLEN: I saw him at the court on Tuesday. BALDWIN: You saw him at the court. What are you hearing as far as what might have happened?

CULLEN: We don't know. We don't have a cause of death. Now, the police said there was -- or the district attorney's office said there was no sign of obvious trauma. Now, there's already been crazy conspiracy theories out there suggesting he was killed. There's no evidence to suggest that at all.

But all we know is that Steve showed up at court every day for this trial. I saw him every day. I talked to him at lunch actually on Monday. And he was talking about, he was -- I asked. I said, Stevie, when are you up? He goes either he said late this week or next week. And he goes, I think I'm one of the last guys, meaning the prosecution witness. And then we found out today, I found out today from talking to Steve Davis that on Tuesday evening, Steve Rakes had found out he was not going to testify and that upset him greatly, because, as you said, Brooke, he's been waiting decades to tell his story.

And Kevin Weeks, you know, gave a different story. He wanted to rebut that.

BALDWIN: So many people are telling their stories. Red, you have such a story to tell. Why not put you on the stand?

SHEA: Well, first of all, I refuse to go on the stand. Second of all, I would be a hostile witness, so to speak, if they did put me on the stand towards their informants and, of course, towards Whitey, no doubt about it, to both sides.

But, that said, let's get back to Rakes. You know, here's a guy that was ready to go testify, who was a victim along with his family, was waiting many years, as Kevin said. And he never got the chance. And the reason why he never got the chance is because Kevin Weeks had a different story about the encounter that happened.

And he wanted to tell his story. He wanted to tell his story how it was true. And actually Kevin was put on the hot seat for that. And he -- he was asked why he didn't -- twisted it. He said because he didn't like Rakes. So, you know, I think this really caught up to this guy. It's a sad day for his family.

BALDWIN: Kevin, final question to you. You know, listen, Whitey Bulger was on the lam for years and years. We come to find out he was living a couple block from the beach in Santa Monica with his girlfriend. What's the sense just in the city of Boston over this whole thing?

CULLEN: Well, I mean, I think it's a mixed bag. I think -- I have heard from people who are fascinated by it. I know that my -- the number of Twitter followers I have had has more than tripled since I started covering the trial.

And yet I have heard from people who are sick of it, Brooke. They're really tired of it. And they're tired -- I actually wrote a column the other day talking about that it's sort of a joke that, you know, they bring this guy in a big cavalcade to and from the court every day. And he's inconveniencing drivers, because they have to pull over and let his motorcade speed by.

So, you know, I think some people are glad we're here at this sort of denouement. It's at the end. But there's a lot of people, yours truly included, that would like to look in the rear-view mirror at all this.

BALDWIN: Kevin Cullen, thank you so much for joining me at the courthouse there in Boston. Red Shea, a pleasure. Gentlemen, appreciate it.

SHEA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Got to move on.

Now to the parents of Trayvon Martin breaking their silence, calling for action. They are opening up about Saturday night's verdict. We have heard from Trayvon Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, this morning. She said she was watching the news just like millions of you did. And when she heard those two little words, not guilty, she said she was both shocked and stunned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I was in a bit of shock. I thought surely that he would be found guilty of second-degree murder, manslaughter at the least. But I just knew that they would see that this was a teenager just trying to get home. This was no burglar. This was somebody -- somebody's son that was trying to get home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were stunned by the verdict?

FULTON: I was stunned. Absolutely. I couldn't believe it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Trayvon Martin's parents are talking tonight to Anderson Cooper live 8:00 Eastern. Do not miss that sit-down interview.

BALDWIN: Meantime, I want to tell you about this open letter that caught our eye. This is from civil rights icon Martin Luther King's niece, Dr. Alveda King.

Here's what she says. She says she's saddened -- have you seen this photo? She's saddened by this, of her uncle, Dr. King, in a hoodie. This is being spread around online. So she wrote a letter called "Judge By Content of Character, Not Skin Color or a Hoodie" to the artist who created it. This is what she said.

"I feel compelled to cry foul, shame on you to the media moguls and civil rights leaders who want to stir up a controversy where there is none." She goes on, "I am not angered by the artistic expression. I'm just plain hurt and saddened to see my message of my uncle, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., reduced to a debate over an article of clothing. I am no way suggesting that hoodies are a bad thing. Yet there are other ways to remember Dr. King. Perhaps most importantly, that way would be found in his sermons and letters. Would Martin Luther King Jr. as a teenager where a hoodie in the 21st century? I may not think so. But who knows. Would Martin Luther King Jr. weep at the tragic loss and a life and dream of Trayvon Martin and the now deferred dream of George Zimmerman? Most likely."

I want to bring in CNN chief political correspondent Candy Crowley just to talk a little bit about the president, because we know President Obama has remained pretty quiet on the Zimmerman verdict beyond, you know, his paper statement calling this a strategy, calling on everyone to respect how the jury has spoken.

But I want you to listen to what Press Secretary Jay Carney, press spokesperson Jay Carney, said just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So, you know, again, I don't know when he will next address these matters. In some regards it's up to people who interview him. But, you know, he is -- I mean, he hasn't shied away from these issues in the past and I'm sure he won't in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Candy, do you think he will shy away from this? Do you think he will tackle it? How would he tackle this?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he could be asked about it. And there is that.

There's a bit of an easy out here at this point by saying, listen, the Justice Department is looking into whether any federal civil rights charges can be brought. I think he will speak out about it. This president is it -- as the first African-American president, obviously people look at him and a lot of people look at him and say he should speak out. Others would say it's a little too granular for the president.

He needs to not talk about the case, but perhaps about race in general. I suspect, obviously he may get asked about it. Who knows what you say in a 30-second answer? Or does he want to at some point do another speech on race? He's given -- he gave one during the campaign when there was so much about Jeremiah Wright, his pastor at the time.

And he's given a couple since being in office. He hasn't shied away from that. But he's a deliberative guy. He does not do things quickly, particularly when they are such red hot topics of conversation as this one is. So I think, Brooke, yes, I wouldn't be surprised if he gave a speech. But I think that people will be disappointed if they are looking for him to side with one side or another in terms of this verdict, because that's just not who he is.

BALDWIN: Candy Crowley, thank you very much. We will see if and when he tackles it and if it is in more than a 30-second sound bite. Of course, watch Candy, "STATE OF THE UNION" Sunday morning 9:00 a.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Candy, thank you.

Coming up next, did the feds miss clues involving the Boston bombing suspects? CNN speaks with one man who knew them. Wait until you hear what he reveals.

Plus, this terrifying crash has put a 70-year-old in the hospital fighting for his life. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Anger still raging over "Rolling Stone"'s decision to do this. You have seen the cover. It hits magazine stands tomorrow. This is Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, the younger of the two brothers, the only surviving Boston bombing suspect and alleged killer, now on the cover of "Rolling Stone."

And many say the magazine did it just to get people talking, ultimately sell more issues. But it looks like their plan backfired to some extent. At least five big retailers are refusing to sell it. The latest, Walgreens, Rite-Aid, 7-Eleven joining in the boycott. The magazine contends it is good journalism.

CNN is learning about Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Dzhokhar's brother, and his connection to a triple murder that happened a year-and-a-half earlier, a connection that really is still a mystery to this day.

Deborah Feyerick sat down with one man, a boxing trainer, who knew three men connected with both crimes, including at the center of all of this, Tamerlan Tsarnaev. And what he told CNN might surprise you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the terror attack on Boston, three people in John Allan's world were about to collide. Three people who trained in boxing and martial arts, all three are now dead. And key among them is bombing suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev, seen working out at Allan's Wai Kru gym days before the attack.

(on camera): Were you surprised at his demeanor 72 hours before those bombings on Boston marathon?

JOHN ALLAN, GYM OWNER: Unbelievable -- just him entering the ring. I mean, you know, like jumping over both legs, feet at this shoulder height, clearing the ring, hopping in, jumping rope. Like, yes, like he was on top of the world.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Allan trained both Tsarnaev and another Russian speaker, Ibragim Todashev.

ALLAN: Ibragim and Tamerlan were, you know, polar opposites as individuals. Tamerlan was very flashy and flamboyant. Ibragim was a bit more reserve, but he was hot-headed. There were a few times that Ibrahim and Tamerlan prayed to mecca in the gym, which wasn't abnormal for Ibrahim to do it because he did it from day one, but it was abnormal for Tamerlan.

FEYERICK (on camera): So they were getting closer?

ALLAN: It seemed so, yes.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Allan says Todashev and Tsarnaev trained together in 2011. That same year, Tsarnaev's friend Brandon Mess who also trained at the gym was murdered in a near beheading, along with two pals. Sources say Tsarnaev and Todashev were involved in the murders.

(on camera): Do you believe that Tamerlan and maybe Ibrahim had anything to do with those triple murders in Waltham?

ALLAN: I don't know. I know for a fact that Tamerlan was, probably, if not daily, but several times a week hanging out with Brandon Mess, at his house, at that house where he was murdered.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Allan says Tamerlan's reaction was strange, almost dismissing his friend's murder.

ALLAN: At first I took it for nervous energy. You know, because Tamerlan was always, always put up a mask, you know, a front. He always appeared in control.

FEYERICK: Shortly after the murders, Todashev moved to Florida. Tamerlan went to Dagestan, where he reportedly became radicalized. Allan says he gave FBI agents Todashev's name. Todashev was shot by an FBI agent after allegedly implicating himself in the murders.

ALLAN: That's a bizarre story and situation. It's very hard to believe.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Deb Feyerick there reporting. Todashev's autopsy report remains under lock and key. And the FBI has asked the Florida medical examiner not to release details, citing a -- quote -- "active investigation."

A CIA agent arrested in Central America. We will take you live to the Pentagon next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A small plane crashed into two mobile homes in Maryland today. Take a look at it for yourself. You can see the aftermath. The pilot, a 70-year-old man, is listed in critical condition. No one else was hurt. This crash happened in Maryland City. It's a suburb just about 20 miles from the nation's capital. Authorities evacuated the homes in the area as a precaution. That crash is being investigated.

And a CIA base chief has been arrested in Panama on an international arrest warrant from Italy. Why? His role in the seizing of a suspected terrorist in Italy that dates back to 2003. Barbara Starr joins me now from the Pentagon to explain.

What's the story here, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This, Brooke, a case of international intrigue 10 years old spanning several continents, now back in the headlines today.

The man, Robert Seldon Lady, we do not have a picture of him. He was the CIA chief in Milan, Italy, 10 years ago, very much part of secret operations. Now the Italians confirming he was arrested in Panama. He is wanted back in Italy. He was convicted in absentia for his role in what was said to be, several years ago, a CIA covert operation to seize and arrest a Muslim cleric off the streets of Milan, send that man to Egypt, where the man says he was tortured, all for what is said to be the cleric's role in trying to recruit fighters for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The man, Robert Seldon Lady, was suspected and convicted of being part of that operation, you know, back 10 years ago. It was all very much something that the CIA participated in undercover with other intelligence services around the world, seizing and arresting suspected terrorists, sending them to secret prisons in various locations around the world, so-called black prisons, where they were interrogated and said by many to be tortured in those prisons.

So he was convicted in Italy,now 10 years later, arrested, detained in Panama. And it remains to be seen whether he turns up publicly and whether he will be sent back to Italy under this conviction -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Barbara Starr, thank you.

A raging wildfire in California has now even more people fleeing from their homes. They're unsure if their homes will be there when they get back. We have a live report from the edge of the fire zone next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)