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Live Coverage of Ariel Castro's Sentencing; Forensic Psychiatrist on the Stand
Aired August 01, 2013 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN LIVE FEED)
ANDREW BURKE, FBI SPECIAL AGENT, CLEVELAND OFFICE: On occasion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would he -- after sexually abusing them, throw money at them, saying, "Here, you're being paid for the sex," in essence?
BURKE: There were reports of that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would he then turn -- if they wanted something special from the store demand payment from them from those monies to get items they were requesting?
BURKE: Occasionally as well, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, before you is who or ...
BURKE: Michelle Knight, Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that how they appeared to you that day?
BURKE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was different?
BURKE: As I mentioned, the women have made dramatic recoveries, I believe, physically and psychologically, so their initial appearance to me was considerably more dire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The middle photo of Michelle Knight that's on the screen before you now, do you recognize the place and location of that photo?
BURKE: It's a photograph taken at Metro Hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that's how she appeared the night of May 6th.
BURKE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
And this photo would be from what point in time?
BURKE: This would be the day or that day after that point, May 7th, or possibly May 8th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, this triplicate progression of Amanda Berry, do you recognize these photos?
BURKE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the middle photo, do you recognize the place and location of that photo?
BURKE: Metro Hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this photo.
BURKE: That's the FBI office. And that's May 7th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now this triplicate progression of Gina DeJesus.
BURKE: May 6th, Metro Hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this photo?
BURKE: May 7th, Cleveland FBI office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Special Agent Burke.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, just real quickly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Certainly. Be mindful of the time, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have until 11:30.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Agent Burke, you were directed by Mr. Thomas to a letter that was found, which was allegedly written by Mr. Castro on April 4, 2004. Do you recall that?
BURKE: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're familiar with that document. You read it, I'm sure, several times, is that correct?
BURKE: I have read it several times, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would agree with me then based on your familiarity of the document that despite the circumstances and the origin as he did explain in that letter to whoever was eventually going to read it as to how these abductions occurred and he did express remorse for his conduct, is that correct?
BURKE: I believe in the letter he wrote something to the effect that he was sorry for his conduct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think that you -- part of this was he was unsure, but certainly believed and expressed in this letter he was sick, mentally ill. And other than that, he had no explanation for why he could possibly do something like this. Would you agree that he wrote that?
BURKE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In essence, we know that it does seem to imply, if you would agree with me, that this -- in essence, for lack of a better word, been a suicide letter. There was that sort of impression.
We know that ultimately he didn't kill himself, but he did give that impression, this was a suicide type of note. Would you agree with that?
BURKE: I don't know that I would concur that it was written as a suicide note. It did not give me that immediate impression.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, your honor.
BURKE: Thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The state would next call Deputy David Jacobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, deputy.
DEPUTY SHERIFF DAVE JACOBS, CUYAHOGA COUNTY, OHIO, SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Good morning, judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning. Would you identify yourself and your employment?
JACOBS: My name is Dave Jacobs. I'm a deputy sheriff with the Cuyahoga County sheriff's office.
As a detective, I'm currently assigned to the violent crimes task force in the FBI.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you deputized at any other law enforcement agency?
JACOBS: Yes, I have a special deputy U.S. Marshal commission and I'm also commissioned by the special agent charge Cleve Leland division by the FBI.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the interest of time, were you involved or assigned to participate in the interrogation of Ariel Castro May 7th, 2013?
JACOBS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you develop a strategy for that interrogation as to how you intended to proceed?
JACOBS: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it? JACOBS: My strategy for the interrogation was to be non- confrontational, to obtain information from Mr. Castro that would meet the elements of the crimes we thought he may be charged with in the near future.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you going into it in an attempt to browbeat him or be confrontational with him?
JACOBS: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you administer Miranda rights to him?
JACOBS: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he read, perform and sign a written waiver of Miranda rights?
JACOBS: Yes, he did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On a separate form at the conclusion of that process, did he also execute a three-page summary statement of the course of that interrogation as to his core admission of conduct?
JACOBS: Yes, there were two interviews I conducted with Ariel Castro. The first one was May 7th. The second one was May 8th. The second day is when we took a written statement from Mr. Castro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to approach, your honor, and show him state's 11. Do you recognize this document? Three pages?
JACOBS: Yes, I do. That's the written statement we took from Ariel Castro on May 8th, 2013.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you describe how Mr. Castro interacted with you in terms of -- if you posed a question or a statement to him, was he in engagement with you during this interrogation? Was he responsive to your question?
JACOBS: Yes. Surprisingly, he was very -- his answers were very succinct. When I asked him a question, he answered the question.
Typically, in my experience in interviews, when you ask somebody an incriminating question, you may not get the answer.
I felt that Ariel Castro, when questions were posed to him, incriminating questions, he answered those questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So was he beating around the bush?
JACOBS: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was he taking the long way around the block?
JACOBS: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you prepared some notes that are a condensation of the high points of the course of this interrogation?
JACOBS: I have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you take us through it in a narrative fashion, please?
JACOBS: OK. There were certain things that stood out throughout the interviews, both days, May 7th and May 8th, that Ariel Castro had talked about.
The way the interview was formatted, I thought we should start with Michelle Knight. She was the first person that was abducted in this case.
We then went to Amanda Berry and then we went to Gina DeJesus. As it was formatted, we felt that it would be a lot easier to control the interview and gain the facts if we specifically talked about the incident surrounding Michelle, Amanda and Gina separately. Ultimately, we did that.
Mr. Castro admitted throughout the interview to us on each occasion how he took the girls. He indicated that he had extensive conversations with the girls surrounding the times he did abduct them.
In his own words, he used the word "abduct." He referenced himself in the interview as a sexual predator.
I asked him at that point, what do you consider what a sexual predator is. And he said somebody that continually repeats offenses.
I asked him if it was a one-time incident, how would he reference himself. He referred to that as a sexual offender.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he use the phrase "I'm a criminal?"
JACOBS: Yes, he did. And that was -- to put that in context, he -- I also conducted interviews with his mother, Lillian and I also conducted interviews with his brother, Onil, and that -- to put that statement in context, it was in reference to his brother's lack of involvement in this entire situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. From the totality of the investigation, is there any reason to believe that his brothers had any knowledge what he was up to?
JACOBS: In my opinion, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's supported by the description from the victims, that it was Mr. Ariel Castro and Mr. Ariel Castro alone that conducted this scheme against them.
JACOBS: Yes.
(END LIVE FEED)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm John Berman in for Ashleigh Banfield today.
We're live in Cleveland, watching the sentencing hearing for Ariel Castro. It is a dramatic, somewhat peculiar hearing, revealing new disturbing details about this man's near 10-year reign of terror over the three women he held captive.
We are hearing things really we've never heard before. He used 99 feet of chains. He placed motorcycle helmets on his captives. He played games with these women where he put a loaded gun to their head. As I said, very disturbing details.
Let's get back to the testimony right away here. We're hearing from Deputy David Jacobs.
He was one of the law enforcement officials who interviewed Ariel Castro in the days after these girls were rescued.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN LIVE FEED)
JACOBS: Is there anything that you could say or do to the family that would make things better. There was no response.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see Mr. Castro in court here today?
JACOBS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And would you point to him and describe what he's wearing?
JACOBS: He's sitting at the table wearing an orange jumpsuit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let the record reflect the identification of Mr. Ariel Castro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it will. But it seems unnecessary at this point.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Showing you state's 17, do you recognize what this CDR represents as a copy of the interrogation?
JACOBS: It represents -- there was a video and audio taken of both times that Mr. Castro was interrogated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. No further questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just one question with your permission, judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These interviews, sir, they were taken before he had the advice of counsel or lawyers, right?
JACOBS: Yes, they were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just came -- you went to see him, and he completely cooperated with you, didn't he?
JACOBS: To use the word "completely," I don't think that's accurate. I believe that if it I can describe it, he did cooperate. I felt that in some of the elements of the crime were minimized. But he was very cooperative throughout the interview.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Talked himself right into convictions, didn't he?
JACOBS: Yes, he did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he wasn't hesitant at all to tell you exactly what happened, from his perspective, right?
JACOBS: No, he wasn't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.
JUDGE: Thanks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your honor, the state would next present Dr. Gregory Saathoff. S-A-A-T-H-O-F-F.
JUDGE: Good morning, doctor.
GREGORY SAATHOFF, DOCTOR OF FORENSIC PSYCHIATRY: Good morning, judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, doctor. We'll be moving fast. Do you possess a medical license?
SAATHOFF: Yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From where?
SAATHOFF: State of Virginia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And for what specialty?
SAATHOFF: Psychiatry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you pursue a profession?
SAATHOFF: Yes, I'm a psychiatrist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you practice forensic psychiatry?
SAATHOFF: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For whom (ph)?
SAATHOFF: I'm University of Virginia in Charlottesville.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you consult with the federal government, for example, the FBI, behavioral analysis unit?
SAATHOFF: Yes, I serve as the conflict resolution specialist for the FBI's critical incident response group.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what is that?
SAATHOFF: It is the group that contains the negotiators, the profilers, the hostage rescue team within the FBI. It's the operational division within the FBI that responds to crisis as well as violent crimes. The National Center for Analysis of Violent Crimes located within the critical incidents response program.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you interact also with other federal agencies, such as Homeland Security and other committees that may be called by any of the federal government such as courts or agencies?
SAATHOFF: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the course of your professional career, have you had an occasion to interview a large number of serious offenders in terms of developing behavioral profiles for the benefit of educating law enforcement?
SAATHOFF: Yes, I have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And have you previously had past exposure to cases of captivity, serial kidnapping, sexual abuse, in the course of captivity?
SAATHOFF: Yes, I have.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, were you asked by our office to consult with us and review case materials, both in our possession and in possession of the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the State of Ohio versus Ariel Castro?
SAATHOFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, briefly, did you review?
SAATHOFF: I reviewed videotapes, I reviewed transcripts of videos that were done of three women, as well as a approximately ten-hour video of an FBI interview that was done of Mr. Castro. Other related court documents. I also had the opportunity to interview former girlfriend of Mr. Castro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was that Lilian Rolvan (ph)?
SAATHOFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, moving -- did you prepare a report of opinion to our office in connection with that work you did?
SAATHOFF: Yesterday I wrote a letter that summarized my findings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:: And is that state's 24? SAATHOFF: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I'd like to you take us through that report.
(END LIVE FEED)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BERMAN: Welcome back, everyone. John Berman in New York. On your screen there you're seeing the sentencing hearing for Ariel Castro. He is being sentenced today for the imprisonment, the torture, the assault of three women he kept in captivity for nearly ten years.
On the stand right now is Dr. Gregory Saathoff; he is a forensic psychologist. He is testifying what he has seen in Ariel Castro, and he has interviewed him, is unprecedented. He says he has never seen anyone with this level of planning who has held this many captives for this long. Dramatic testimony on the stand right now. Let's get right back to it.
(BEGIN LIVE FEED)
SAATHOFF: The most significant part of the case I think someone would be able to, month after month, year after year, be able to devise ways to conceal the situation from family, friends, neighbors. For a time he maintained a relationship with a girlfriend who was completely unaware he had these women in a house.
His use of wigs, which has already been described, his playing of music loudly in the house. He was a musician but the playing of music sometimes to mask any potential for the women to be heard over the music were examples. I think the use of aliases. Making sure that the -- his daughter learned the names of these women, not their real names, but used aliases, all contrived to conceal this protracted captivity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, did he, in your review of materials, make any claim to anyone professionally that he needed medical help treatment? Or mental health treatment?
SAATHOFF: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, in fact, he's not diagnosed by the court clinic with having any mental health condition, correct?
SAATHOFF: His competency assessment was done by one of the most respected forensic psychiatrists in the country, Dr. Phillip Resnick, who found no psychiatric illness whatsoever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Now, in this point number three, you made mention of a quote by Mr. Castro that you found significant.
SAATHOFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was it? SAATHOFF: I have what's actually in that section, one a statement in this document of April 2004 in which he stated, quote, "I have little private life. I function around others like a normal person." And, in fact, he appeared to have done that and was able to live this life around family, friends, without them suspecting.
There's a -- with regard to the duplicity, in the document, in my discussions with colleagues at the National Center for Analysis of Violent Crime, they were struck with the fact that in the document he made the statement, "I had no idea Gina was so young. She looks a lot older."
But we certainly know that he was aware that Gina was a classmate of his daughter's. He knew his daughter's age. And therefore, to make that statement, "I had no idea Gina was so young, she looks a lot older," makes -- caused some skepticism, I think in the minds of those reviewing the document as to whether or not he was actually being truthful in writing the document and making the statements that he made.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based on the entire totality of the information that you have been provided, do you have any professional reason to believe that, if ever given his freedom again, Mr. Castro would not go back to his old ways?
SAATHOFF: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you say that?
SAATHOFF: Well, the duplicity was so complete in terms of his ability to fool his family, his friends, even his girlfriend, who he maintained a relationship with at the time. The fact that he was able to construct this kind of situation day in, day out, as he said in his own statement, living a normal life, I think is quite significant. He appeared to certainly have a lot of emotional attachment to his home and -- but whether or not there's true remorse with regard to the victims, I think that's a great question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. And we would next call Dr. Frank Godford (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a couple questions, Judge, with your permission. I know there is a time constraint, but it's kind of important.
JUDGE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctor, you understand that Mr. Castro was tested for competency only, he wasn't tested for a psychiatric disorder, don't you?
SAATHOFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that was what the doctor you gave such respect to, Dr. Resnick, he examined him for one purpose and one purpose only -- not sanity at the time of the act, because that was not the referral by the court. It was for competency, correct?
SAATHOFF: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competency is different, Doctor, than sanity at the time of the act, is it not? Just tell me yes or no.
SAATHOFF: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And what, you put in your report, based upon the materials on review, but you don't outline for us what materials did you actually review.
SAATHOFF: I reviewed, as I mentioned at the beginning of my testimony, the transcripts of the recordings. I reviewed the competency document. I reviewed court documents related to the apprehension charge documents. I was asked to -- I wrote this letter yesterday. This was not a formal exam, obviously, and I didn't have the opportunity to examine Mr. Castro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. You never examined Mr. Castro, nor did you ever speak to the girls or the ladies.
SATTHOFF: Correct.
(END LIVE FEED)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
