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Stockholm Syndrome Expert Testifies in Castro Sentencing Trial; Ariel Castro Apologizes; New Details Revealed on Women During Captivity.

Aired August 01, 2013 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm John Berman in New York.

On the screen, we're watching the sentencing hearing for Ariel Castro. This is going on live in Cleveland right now. We're hearing a great deal of dramatic testimony about what went on those nearly 10 years that the three women were held in captivity, how Ariel Castro managed to do it.

On the stand right now is Dr. Frank Ochberg, a psychiatrist, something of an expert on something called Stockholm Syndrome. This is the condition, the sort of mental state that sometimes captives, hostages get, that sometimes they're bound to their captors. What he is trying to do is explain the psychological terror that was really inflicted on the three victims.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN LIVE FEED)

DR. FRANK OCHBERG, PSYCHIATRIST: It included the writings of the victims and photographs and films that were taken during the period of captivity. I interviewed the victims. I did not interview them directly out of respect for their privacy and wishes of their attorneys. I reviewed the examination of Mr. Castro, and I reviewed his examination. I met with his daughter, and had a face-to-face interview with her. I did what I thought was necessary and sufficient to develop a sense of what these survivors went through and what they face in the future.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Doctor, did you provide a letter to Mr. McGinnty with regard to your findings in regards to this case?

OCHBERG: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And let's start with number one. What were your findings? How were these women hurt?

OCHBERG: Well, Your Honor, these women were hurt in many ways. And I boiled it down to three. First is repeated episodes that were terrifying. And that were the kind of trauma that we meant when we defined post traumatic stress disorder, the kind of trauma that you don't escape for years and sometimes a lifetime afterward. Images, smells, touches that come back to you when you're asleep, when you're awake, when you're in that twilight zone between sleep and wakefulness. And sometimes you feel you're going crazy, because your mind isn't working the way it should. This is not normal memory. This is a different type of circuitry.

So it is medical. It is physical. It is an extreme of anxiety. They had that. That was terror-induced state of mind. They had an entirely different dimension that I would call degradation, defilement, dehumanization. Not the same as being placed in high arousal shock, but being treated like an animal, being systematically and relentlessly deprived of your sense of self, your sense of dignity, your connections to others. And that has to do with not having access to sanitary facilities, the way you're fed, the way you're chained, all of that, for a long, long time.

And then finally, they were deprived. They were deprived of mother, of family, of home, of school, of 10 years in which you make your transition from being a young woman to being a woman. And that kind of deprivation isn't the same as being degraded. And part of what that does is it plays with your ability to know who to trust. This is the stage in which human beings developing the capacity for real intimacy. This was not real intimacy. This was a perversion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Doctor, did he do additional damage through some of his actions against his victims?

OCHBERG: Well, of course. He deliberately aborted -- he -- whether he believed it in his own mind or whether he feigned believing it, he tried to produce the belief that this daughter was a love child, not the product of force, sex in captivity. And when that happens, there is something that goes on in our minds. And for a period of time, we lack a real appreciation of what is real and what isn't. We become blinded to the person who aggresses against us. And that's the Stockholm Syndrome. I can explain it very quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go ahead.

OCHBERG: When you are suddenly captured and in a moment you realize, I am in the presence of someone who can kill me, and who makes me feel as though I will be killed. At that point, you're treated so that you can't eat, you can't sleep, you can't use a toilet. You can't move without explicit permission. You -- the word would be infantilized. But little by little, you're given what it takes to survive. And in your mind, consciously, unconsciously, you deny that this is the person who did all of this to you. And you start to feel as you did as a little baby with your mother, who is the first source of nourishment, of life itself. So the body assigns to that person the feelings that you would have to your own biological mother. That's the Stockholm Syndrome. It's very deep. It's not something that you're doing very consciously. And I have interviewed scores and scores of people who had the Stockholm Syndrome in different circumstances. And they're victims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Doctor, how did these women cope? What were you able to determine by their interviews, by the information that was provided to you that they were able to cope for 13,226 days before their escape?

OCHBERG: First of all, among them are marvelous, compelling examples of resilience, of imagination, of humanity.

I would start with Michelle. What an extraordinary human being. She served as doctor, nurse, pediatrician, midwife. She did the delivery. She didn't have a child herself. Suspect she did it under primitive circumstances. And when that little baby wasn't breathing, she breathed into that baby. She brought life to that child. And she also had circumstances in which she interposed herself so that Gina wouldn't get the assault. And she took it. She is a very courageous and heroic individual.

And Amanda managed to raise a child under these circumstances, and to teach that child values and faith and schooling.

And there were times when there was interaction among them. And by and large, that interaction showed the milk of human kindness, love, faith, optimism. So they copied. Part of it was Stockholm Syndrome. Part of it are the gifts of personality and character that they had.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Doctor, what is their future?

OCHBERG: Well, I said very good things about them. And as a doctor who treats, I want to be on the side of optimism and encouragement and hope for them. But the damage that was done does not go away. They have life sentences. This was not trivial. I think they will, with the love and support of this whole community and what they bring to the table, they have a good chance to have a good life. But that doesn't mean they will ever be free of the damage that was done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And would you agree with me, Doctor, their injuries are permanent?

OCHBERG: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Thank you.

OCHBERG: No, thank you, Your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: We'll be in recess for 10 minutes. See you all at 11:50.

(END LIVE FEED)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Welcome back, everyone. John Berman, in for Ashleigh Banfield today.

We have been watching the sentencing hearing for Ariel Castro in Cleveland. He is being sentenced today to life in prison, plus 1,000 years for holding three women captive for nearly 10 years. We are getting dramatic details today about what went on in that house for all that time.

And we are hearing and set to hear from Ariel Castro, really for the first time at length a little bit later today.

As the day began, we did hear briefly from Mr. Castro, who began to apologize to the women he held for so long.

Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL CASTRO, ON TRIAL FOR KIDNAPPING: I would like to apologize. Can I do that now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you may do that now.

CASTRO: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can do that, too. This is one of your opportunities to speak.

CASTRO: (INAUDIBLE) Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So as you could hear, Ariel Castro apologized. He also said he expects to speak later on today. We assume that will be at length. People who know Mr. Castro have said he will talk for a period of time and let the world see the real Ariel Castro, whatever that means.

As I said, it has been a day of high drama there. We have been learning details about how the women were found. We heard from Officer Barbara Johnson, who was one of the first officers on the scene, one of the first people to see these women who had been held captive for so long. And she gave emotional testimony about how they appeared to her.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OFC. BARBARA JOHNSON, CLEVELAND POLICE DEPARTMENT: I remember I kind of shined the flashlight so she could -- whoever it was could see that we were the police. We later found out it was Michelle Knight, as she literally launched herself into Officer Esponda's arms. He -- legs, arms, just choking him. And she just kept repeating, "You saved us, you saved us." at that point, you know, I told her, "It's OK, honey, you're safe." She then came over to me and jumped into my arms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It's been more than two months now since these women were found. These women were freed after so long in captivity. And as I said, we are learning today some of the details about what went on while they were being held.

Our Pamela Brown is outside the courthouse right now in Cleveland. She has been covering the story from the beginning.

Pamela, as I said, we really are learning new things and seeing things that we had never seen before in this case.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Jaw-dropping information here, really bringing reality to the surface, John. Seeing some of this physical evidence, seeing the gun that Ariel Castro used to threaten his victims, and seeing pictures of inside the House. This is the first time, John, that we're seeing what these rooms look like, where the women were held. We saw the room where Amanda Berry was kept with her young daughter. And you see on the wall, child workbook pages. And you how small the room is. As one of the prosecutors said, only 11.5 by 11.5 feet, and this is where they were held.

We saw the rusty chains used to restrain the girls. And he talked about how there was no doorknob inside the room where the women were kept so that Ariel Castro could control them and keep them inside the rooms. He talked about how there were little cut-out holes in the room so they would have ventilation. But that's really all they had as far as ventilation goes, because the windows were boarded up. And we saw the room where Michelle Knight and Gina Dejesus stayed. They were in the room together, we learned, and that's where they were bound up with the chains we saw.

So it's incredible to see these images, to see how small the rooms are, to see the disheveled condition of the home. We saw the basement where he restrained the girls when he first abducted them, the pole where he chained them to, the helmet he put on the women's heads after he abducted them and kept them there overnight in the dark basement.

And we also learned about the note that Ariel Castro wrote. We talked about this note in the very beginning, but we're learning more about it. He wrote in that note that he was a sexual predator. He expressed remorse and talked about why he -- why he abducted the women, how he didn't really understand why he did it.

And then, John, we heard from the interrogator, the FBI interrogator, who was one of the first people to talk to Castro after he was arrested. And it's interesting. He said that Castro was very forthcoming with the information, which is not typically what you see with incriminative questions. But he was. And he said he did it because he was trying to satisfy his sexual needs. That is why Ariel Castro said he did what he did.

BERMAN: A couple details that stuck out to me, Pamela, because really, the raw brutality that they displayed. We learned from a forensic investigator, 99 feet of chains, 99 feet of chains, and also, as you mentioned, the helmets that were placed on these women, just after they were captured.

BROWN: Right. And these are just -- this is just some of the evidence here, John. Let's keep this in perspective. I've talked to authorities, and they said, look, we're not going to show the full scope of what was inside that home. It's simply too graphic. We don't want to re-victimize these women. So this is just skimming the surface with what we're seeing here. And it's really chilling to see the gun he used, as well.

But what really touched me, John, is hearing the doctor talk about Stockholm Syndrome, what these women went through, and how Michelle Knight protected Gina Dejesus, how she would take the brunt of the assault in order to protect Gina, how she played nurse and doctor. And the doctor just talked about how heroic, how strong these women are, how they have healed rapidly.

But yet, they will be damaged for the rest of their lives as a result of what they went through. And as far as the Stockholm Syndrome goes, he talked about -- he compared it to them being babies. How they were made to feel they survived on Ariel Castro for their survival. And that, bit by bit, he would give them the gifts of life to make them feel dependent on him and thankful to him for giving them food and water. It's just so -- it's difficult to understand. It's complex. But this is really, as I said earlier, bringing reality to the surface of what these women went through.

BERMAN: And as you said, one of the important things to note, these women have been called extraordinary human beings. Michelle Knight called a doctor, a nurse, a teacher here. Truly, the heroes of this story.

Pamela Brown, we will come back to you in a little bit.

We are going to talk much more about this dramatic testimony today. The details of what we're hearing. Also, why we're hearing it today because that is fascinating, too. We're going to speak with Karen Charrington, a former sex crimes prosecutor. We're also going to speak to Professor Doug Berman, a law professor, to shed some light on why this is all happening today.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We have been covering the sentencing hearing in Cleveland, Ohio, for Ariel Castro. He agreed last week, pled guilty to 937 counts, including rape, kidnapping, sexual assault, you name it. He agreed to a plea bargain of life in prison plus 1,000 years. He will never get out.

Today, we're hearing dramatic testimony inside this courtroom right now during this sentencing hearing.

I want to talk about this. I want to bring in a couple guests, Karen Charrington, a former sex crimes prosecutor, and Doug Berman, a professor of law at Ohio State University.

Doug, I want to start with you here.

Because today, in some ways, as dramatic as it is to me, seems a bit peculiar. This man pled guilty last week, already agreed to the sentence. What's going on today seems like we would be seeing in a hearing if the trial had actually happened. So why are we seeing a hearing today?

DOUG BERMAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW, OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY: I think there are a couple reasons. One, there is an obligation for the judge to make sure there is evidence to support the plea agreement that has been entered into by the prosecutor and the defense. And I think a big part of what the prosecutors are trying to ensure is not only that the evidence is there on the record so the judge can comply with his obligations to make sure it supports this life-plus 1,000 year sentence, but also if, at some point a year, five years, 10 years from now, Castro claims, oh, well, I didn't get good advice from my attorneys or wasn't as bad as they say, the record will have been made at the sentencing proceeding to justify the verdict that is going to get entered and the sentence that will be imposed.

I think in addition, and I think this may be as important if not more important under these circumstances, is to show the local community, the state, the nation, the world really that is watching here just how monstrous Ariel Castro's crimes were. And I think in particular there may be a concern among prosecutors that Castro, who has a right to make a statement, may try to minimize his crime or assert mental illness or other explanations to make him seem like a more sympathetic character. And I am sure the prosecutors, both to vindicate justice and to vindicate the victims, want to make sure that just the true horror and the extremeness of these crimes. And one of the experts described it as unprecedented, when they were testifying in court. It is out there on the record fully displayed so that there can be no question about the extreme sentence, life-plus 1,000 years being justified under the circumstances.

BERMAN: We did hear Ariel Castro apologize very briefly to these women. He also said that he does plan to speak later in the day. We assume that will be at length.

The details that we have heard today, some of the descriptions, the terror that went on inside that house for nearly 10 years, we had one psychiatrist say that he terrified these women, he degraded these women, he deprived these women. And a t one point, the prosecutors even played -- they discussed how Ariel Castro would throw money at the women to degrade them even further.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: After sexually abusing them, throw money at them, saying, here, you're being paid for the sex in essence?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were reports of that.

UNIDENTIFIED ATTORNEY: Would he then turn, if they wanted special from the store, demand payment of them from the moneys to get items they were requesting?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Occasionally, as well, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Psychological, physical, sexual assault and terror over a 10- year period.

Karen Charrington, former sex crimes prosecutor, what struck you about what you heard today?

KAREN CHARRINGTON, FORMER SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, most of the testimony and the details today just showed how heinous this crime was. And I agree that this testimony is used so that the prosecution can have a sealed-type deal here and clearly support on the record why Castro is receiving a life sentence-plus 1,000 years.

What also struck me is the defense is going to use this hearing to also humanize Castro in some way. You heard that Castro indicated that he was not a monster, and he wanted to portray that to the public. So what strikes me is the cross-examination from the defense counsel of these witnesses in an attempt to somehow humanize Castro and also make a reasoning with respect to why Castro conducted this heinous crime.

BERMAN: Quickly, Karen, you have dealt with victims of sex crimes before. What must it be like for these women? They're not in the courtroom right now. We may hear from Michelle Knight in a little bit. What must it be like for them to know this information is now being made public?

CHARRINGTON: I think it will help them. And I think that the prosecution wanted to lessen the amount --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Hang on one second, Karen. We're looking at Michelle Knight in the courtroom right now. She has entered the courtroom right now, giving hugs. She has given one of the most dramatic statements we saw on video a couple of weeks ago, talking about her bravery, talking about how she is holding her head up high right now and facing life head on. And she is in that courtroom. And at this very minute, for the first time since she was rescued, she is laying eyes on Ariel Castro. It has to be incredibly emotional for her. What a brave, brave young woman to be putting herself through this.

Again, Michelle Knight now in the courtroom and with Ariel Castro. We're waiting to see what happens next in this case.

Karen, I did not mean to interrupt you. But with the two of them in the courtroom right now, this is remarkable to see, Karen.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Do you think, Karen, that Michelle Knight has been instructed about how to behave, whether or not she should look him in the eye, what types of things she should or shouldn't say? How well prepared do you think she might be for what goes on today, Karen?

CHARRINGTON: Yeah. I think she has to be well prepared. I am sure she was prepped by the prosecutors on what she needs to say, how to conduct herself, where she should look. Even possibly if she is interested in avoiding eye contact with Castro, they will instruct her. They may have even brought her to the very courtroom prior to this hearing so she could practice what she will say and how she will say it and where she should look. BERMAN: He is gazing. At one point, he appeared to be gazing in the direction of where Michelle Knight is sitting. This moment is too jarring, the kind of electricity. we haven't seen anything like this before.

Let's see if we can listen to what's going on in there for one minute. I'm not sure anyone's talking.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: The camera doesn't seem to be able to capture that entire shot, but Michelle Knight can't be more than 25 feet away from Arial Castro right now.