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Verdict in Whitey Bulger Case; Holder Attacks Sentencing Guidelines

Aired August 12, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The history of the FBI, in the history of these types of federal RICO cases. It's, I think, one of the reasons why so many people have been watching this case because it's so unusual in the history. I think it is important, Brooke, to mention that Bulger is 83 years old.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

HOSTIN: And so while we've been talking during our coverage about these maximum life sentences, let's be honest, if he is convicted of anything and the judge sentences him to, let's say, 20 years in prison, we are, in effect, talking about a life sentence.

BALDWIN: That's why so much of this it sounds like it was a reputation, it was a legacy defense for Whitey Bulger, as you point out, 83 years of age.

I want to bring in Ashleigh Banfield here who can also help in the coverage.

And, Ashleigh, as I'm glancing down at some of the tweets from Deb Feyerick, who's inside the courtroom for us, and Kevin Colon (ph) has been following this minute by minute for "The Boston Globe" tweeting, "Whitey has just taken his seat. Whitey's chair just fell over. An omen." Ashleigh.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wow. You know, this is why cameras in courtrooms are so critical.

BALDWIN: Right.

BANFIELD: This is real life drama. And it's not just drama for spectators. It is drama for those who are affected by these crimes. And the greater society who has had to pay for the prosecution and had to live with the effects of these crimes as well. And what's happening inside that building, Brooke, is critical. It spans decades.

And why is that so difficult when it comes to a courtroom? Think about the memories that fade over just a couple of years, now over a couple of decades, now over three decades. Think about the witnesses who die and can no longer tell their stories, or at least have their voices heard in court. Think about those jurors who may be too young to even know what the '70s or the '80s were like, for heaven's sake, and they are going through this verdict form that is seven pages long listing 48 different counts. And they're not very specific on the verdict pages. So it is taxing their memories over the weeks and weeks that they've had to listen to testimony. It is so taxing to them because each and every one of these counts is critical and can mean a lot of time for a man they either believe looks a lot like the man that everybody says they think is Whitey Bulger, or absolutely is the man that deserves to go to life -- go to prison for the rest of his life. It is not an easy thing for them to do, especially when this is such a long span of crimes.

BALDWIN: And as we look at this and we know -- and let me just read. This is -- Ashleigh, just stay with me. We can kind of do this together. We know that Deb Feyerick is inside the courtroom. So let me just read some of the color that we're getting. This is from the judge inside the courtroom saying to everyone assembled, "you have obviously heard the word we have a verdict in this case. We're in the process of bringing the jurors down for the recording of the verdict. I remind everyone in the gallery that there will be order in the courtroom during the presentation of the verdict and its aftermath."

And I think one important point, Ashleigh Banfield, that we should point out, and we know that this jury, they've been deliberating ever since last Tuesday, but talk about, you know, the details, the witnesses that took the stand over two months. Look at the numbers.

BANFIELD: Yes.

BALDWIN: The jury looked at 900 exhibits from 72 witnesses. It's a lot to sort through.

BANFIELD: I'm just -- I'm just going over the stats on this. And, look, I've covered a lot of trials. I think Phil Spector alone was five months long. And you can imagine the number of witnesses in that one. Prosecutors called 63 witnesses. The defense called 10. There was 72, as you mentioned, over 35 days. And, by the way, those are 35 trial days. so that's not 35 consecutive days. That's a lot of weeks that these jurors have been at it.

And then I just want to --

BALDWIN: Let me jump in. Let me jump in, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Yes, go ahead.

BALDWIN: We've just learned, count one, this is one of the two biggies that we're watching.

BANFIELD: OK.

BALDWIN: Count one, racketeering, conspiracy, guilty. So the --

BANFIELD: Wow.

BALDWIN: Just getting this in my ear. Vish (ph), thank you. Count two, guilty as well. So on both of these, guilty. Guilty, count one, racketeering, conspiracy. Sentence wise, possible life. Count two, racketeering substantive offense. Possible sentence, maximum life. Let me -- and let me try to sort through all of this as we're watching for this. And again, we have crews in this courtroom because I know we all want to hear the color of this 82-year-old sitting here, really his legacy -- we talk so much about this -- has been on the line for him. He's been fighting that he wasn't an FBI informant, fighting some of these, you know, these murder -- these murder counts.

So in order to find Bulger guilty of count two, which they have just done, this was the question, Ashleigh, about whether or not it needed to be unanimous or not. The jury did have to be unanimous to find him guilty of the racketeering acts committed with this -- within this ten-year period. So guilty, count one. Guilty, count two. I'm going to guess he's going away for a long time.

BANFIELD: Yes. You know, Sunny, as a former prosecutor, would know more about the sentencing guidelines and the federal sentences for those two. But we're not at those murders yet, either.

Sunny, what's your knowledge of the sentencing for those two?

HOSTIN: Yes, I mean, there's no question he would be exposed to life in prison for either count. If he gets convicted of all of the counts, it's life in prison plus 30 years. But as I was saying before, we're talking about an 83-year-old defendant.

BALDWIN: Eighty-three.

HOSTIN: So we're really talking about a life sentence regardless of what the judge gives him.

I think what's interesting and what will be interesting is if he's found guilty of count two, which he has been found guilty of count two, we now find out what the jury agreed on, because the jury doesn't have to be unanimous as to all of these counts, the racketeering counts, all the murders, they only need to find that he is guilty unanimously of, perhaps, one of the murders, being involved with two of the murders. And so that is what's going to be so interesting because during this case, his former accomplices, his former friends, testified against him in gruesome detail about how they either murdered people at his behest with him in the room or that he himself murdered certain people. And so clearly the jury believed many of those mobsters.

And I've got to tell you, having tried a lot of cases as a federal prosecutor, sometimes juries don't believe the bad guys. Sometimes you have a convicted person on the witness stand testifying against a defendant and they don't find them to be credible because of their past. Well, that clearly didn't happen here. I didn't think it was going to happen, but it certainly, obviously, did not.

BALDWIN: It has been -- in listening to Deborah Feyerick's reporting over the past, you know, month or two, it has been incredibly gruesome. Some of what we've heard from the witnesses who have taken the stand. In addition, as we keep pointing out, this man is 83 years young. But it has been -- I guess the word albeit (ph) is colorful, the language that has been thrown between the defendant and even people who've been on the stand. We learned a couple of weeks ago one man who had been waiting decades to testify in this -- against Whitey Bulger was found dead on the side of the road in Massachusetts.

And, Sunny, I -- you also know that there have been a number of these victims' families, right, who have been in the courtroom, hanging on every word, to wait to see if justice would be served.

HOSTIN: That's right. And some of them even testifying against Bulger. And it really is something that you just don't often see. We heard in the past about (INAUDIBLE). We've heard about sort of that code of silence where you certainly never become a rat. You don't testify against your own. And so I think that's what's been so fascinating about this case is that you have people that just testified against their former friend and colleague and basically said, you know, I -- this is somebody that I cared about. This was a friend. But this is someone who committed murder and I committed murder with him.

And so it's just oftentimes, in these big cases, these big mafia cases, in organized crime cases, you just don't see them testify against each other the way you did here, and in such an emotional way. It really has been fascinating.

BALDWIN: Just in case you are joining us, breaking news here in the reputed mob boss Whitey Bulger, James "Whitey" Bulger trial. The jury has now come back on these two counts. He faces counts one through 32. We've really been honing in on these two counts. Count one, racketeering, conspiracy, faces up to life, guilty. Count two, racketeering, substantive offense, found guilty.

We are awaiting Deborah Feyerick to pop in front of the camera as soon as these proceedings are over. She has been sitting, she is tweeting. I'm going to read some of her tweets. Forgive me, I'm just going to pause. Tell me again, Vish (ph).

OK. Sunny Hostin, I'm being told to go straight to you. Go ahead.

HOSTIN: The jury hasn't found him guilty of the first seven or eight murders. However, they have found him guilty of conspiring to kill Paul Maganagul (ph). They found him guilty of murdering Edward Connors. Also finding him guilty of conspiring to murder Thomas King. Also another murder charge of Thomas King.

And so what is obviously interesting is that this jury worked very hard. They found him guilty of some of the 19 murders, playing a role in some of the 19 murders, but not all of them. Again, as we mentioned, Brooke, they did not have to find him unanimously guilty of all of those counts to find him guilty as to count two.

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: So he still has this significant exposure of prison time of up to life in prison.

BALDWIN: So in terms of the tick tock, what's happening right now in the courtroom, as I was mentioning, Deborah Feyerick is in there and we'll hear from Deborah and she can give us sort of the play by play as all this is going down as we're talking about it.

And let me just tell you, just according to her tweets, she says she was -- she was tweeting about the judge reading the verdict. James Bulger looks at the judge. The verdict is in order. It may be recorded. Victim families, this is Deb tweeting, victim families have arms around each other. Some have heads bowed. They have been waiting 30 to 40 years for justice for their loved ones.

The jury was asked to stand. Bulger, 83-year-old Bulger, standing. Have you reached unanimous verdict? Yes. Folder is then handed to the judge. Victims' families. She continues with all these different names. They all want justice. James "Whitey" Bulger conferring the lawyers. Thirty-two counts, 33 acts. People are holding their breath. And now we're learning what he's facing now with these 32 different counts.

And, Ashleigh, I guess my question really to you, and I go back to these families and thinking about them in this courtroom and this sense of justice decades in waiting, the sense of justice. How big of a win is this for -- obviously for the families, but also for the federal prosecutors in this case?

BANFIELD: Well, I -- this man, as an ex-con, and I'm going to say he's an ex-con because he was already an ex-con. He -- look, he's been on the run for 16 years. So he has flouted authority and justice if, in fact, he's guilty of all of these crimes. Well, we know two, at least, anyway. So he has thumbed his nose in the face of justice.

When he was found, it was just so blatant what he was found with. The money that was stashed in the walls. The weapons. I think a hand grenade was one of the weapons stashed in the walls of the home where he was. The neighbors were astounded. So I think for a lot of people, there's a reason there's no statute of limitations on murder. There's a reason. And the reason is what you're seeing play out right now in Boston. People like Whitey Bulger ultimately, police like to say and prosecutors like to say and, Sunny, I think you'll back me up on this one, you will not escape for long. Maybe you've made it on the run, but we will find you and we will get you. And this is one of those examples.

The only thing is, and, Sunny, I don't know if you have been able to follow, this is why I get so frustrated without cameras in the courtroom, even in these federal trails --

BALDWIN: Yes.

BANFIELD: Is that I can't say off the bat whether there are appellate issues. I don't know the kind of time that it would take to appeal the sort of issues that arose in this trial. Again, we have an 83-year-old man who likely would not get out on parole or on bond. So do you know of anything that came up during the litigation of this case that might give him hope that he could at least try to battle this?

HOSTIN: Well, look, there are always appellate issues that come up. Always appellate issues. And for sure he will appeal this case. But in looking at this verdict and in following this case, I mean, I don't think that there will be anything that is successful in terms of releasing Whitey Bulger from prison. I mean he's already been found guilty of count one, racketeering, conspiracy, and he's been found guilty of count two, the racketeering substantive offense. And then there are a bunch of other things that he's been found guilty of in connection with count two. So even on appeal, if you challenge one or two of these substantive offenses, you're still dealing with significant amount of time here.

And so I think, you know, what's also, Ashleigh, interesting about this is that you're right, it's so difficult to try these cases 10, 20 years down the line, especially because people's memories fade. They're afraid to testify. Some of them have died. And it really is --

BANFIELD: Hey, Sunny, not to mention what we see in trials today with two-year-old murders, you know, evidence that wasn't treated properly and maybe it's moldy. That's a two-year-old murder case where they get away with that kind of an argument, let alone evidence that may not exist anymore or was in a police lockup and maybe it was flooded or maybe it disappeared. I mean evidence also corrodes over time, too.

HOSTIN: Absolutely. And I think that is why what was so, so powerful and significant in this case is that there were former assassins, former co -- or co-conspirators that testified against him. And oftentimes when these people testify, they are cross-examined on their memory. But when you're in the business of killing others in this way, many of them basically said, I didn't forget this. How could I forget this? I've been living with this for my entire life.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOSTIN: And so it really is a credit to this prosecution that they were able to secure these witnesses, keep them safe, mind you, and have them testify against him.

BALDWIN: This day means justice for so many different families. And just looking down while you've been talking, we now know that the family members are holding hands. They're crying in this courtroom.

We're learning a little bit more on the other counts. Keep in mind he face -- he was facing 32 different counts.

Ashleigh and Sunny, stay with me as we continue to follow this big breaking story. Live pictures from Boston as Whitey Bulger is now learning his fate. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN BREAKING NEWS.

BALDWIN: Welcome back.

This is a day many, many family members have been waiting decades to see the fate. Ultimately the verdict now has come down for reputed mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger. You see all of these people -- these are aerial pictures from one of our Boston affiliates -- awaiting the crush to come out of this federal courtroom, which is where we now know the verdict has been read. Whitey Bulger, this trial has been going on for two months. The jury has been deliberating the last five days. They have just reached a verdict in this trial.

You see on the screen, Whitey Bulger found guilty. The two counts we were really watching for, these are the counts that face -- he faces possible maximum life in prison. Again, we say the caveat, this man is 83 years of age. But the racketeering conspiracy and the racketeering substantive offense, he has been found guilty on both that count one and count two.

Ashleigh Banfield is joining me for this breaking news coverage, as is our CNN legal analyst, Sunny Hostin.

And, listen, this is a lot to sort through. There are a lot of counts. We -- I'm reading -- I'm talking to you, I'm trying to read my tweets to see Deborah Feyerick tweeting specifically about these murders.

And I think it's important to go back to that point. Sunny, you were mentioning this word "prove." They had to prove or not prove -- he was facing 19 -- allegations that he killed 19 different people.

HOSTIN: Right.

BALDWIN: And it sounds like the jury has found -- they have proven that he has, in some cases, and some cases not.

HOSTIN: That's right. And what's important to note, and I don't want to get too wonky --

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: Because federal RICO law can be a bit difficult to explain.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOSTIN: But he's already been found guilty of count one, which is a racketeering conspiracy. So he conspired to do certain acts. He was also found guilty of count two, which is what -- which act -- which acts was he found guilty of conspiring to do? Federal government only needs to prove two. Two acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. Well, they proved a lot of those acts. Six of them included murder of others, in addition to -- six murders, in addition to others.

But if you look at this verdict sheet altogether, Brooke, he was found guilty of 31 out of the 32 counts. This is a complete victory for the government. So not only was he found guilty of more than two predicate acts, when we're talking about count two. When we're talking about 32 counts, he was found guilty of 31. Again, a complete victory for this prosecution when many people felt that this was a long shot because we're talking about crimes that were decades old.

BALDWIN: And this is someone who, you know, listen, many of us have seen Martin Scorsese's film "The Departed" from a number of years ago. I mean that movie was based upon the life of Whitey Bulger and these crimes that, as you point out, have spanned decades and decades. And one thing I know, Sunny and Ashleigh, we were both sort of watching through as we were watching the trial is, would Whitey Bulger testify? Would he take the stand himself? He never did. Sunny, might he testify during the sentencing phase?

HOSTIN: That's a great question. I mean, you know, he --

BANFIELD: I think he should.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOSTIN: Yes. He certainly didn't get on the witness stand to testify. He called this entire trial a sham and sort of thumbed his nose up at the judge and the jury and the entire system. But we may very well hear from him. We did hear exchanges from him during the testimony. I mean, there were -- there were -- one witness, he was yelling at the witness and the witness was yelling back at him. So this is certainly not someone that doesn't seem to want to speak. So we may very well hear from him during sentencing. I suspect that could happen.

BALDWIN: Looks like we have a date. I'm reading tweets as I'm talking to you. November 13th is the date upon which the judge has set the sentencing. Judge is out. So perhaps this means that we will hear from Deborah Feyerick momentarily as we can pop her in front of a camera in front of that federal courthouse.

But let me read this from you as far as color from Whitey Bulger, the man himself. Bulger portrayed (ph) no emotion during the reading of the verdict. His brother entered court late after first guilty verdict had been read. So sort of juxtapose this -- this, you know, lack of emotion in this man who now faces life behind bars. And then you have these victims' family members who, according to folks we have in the courtroom, have been crying and now believe justice has been served.

Ashleigh, what else, as we're watching this together, what else jumps out at you?

BANFIELD: You know -- well, for one thing, look, murder is devastating. And when you have multiple murders and you're one of many families, it's your case that you're most devastated about. So the task for this jury to look through each and every one of these extraordinarily old and difficult to prove murders, the task for this jury was almost insurmountable. And so for them to have a no finding on one of them, well, that's devastating to the family of that murder victim.

Overall, is it going to make a difference in terms of what happens to Whitey Bulger? Not a lick. Not a lick at all. But if what you're looking at here is for vengeance or justice, murder is a personal thing. It's why people are fascinated by it, but may not cry upon a verdict. Family members, on the other hand, are devastated by it because it's their person, it's their murder and it's their personal count.

So -- and one thing I wanted to ask Sunny about was, why no murder charges? Was it just easier to go RICO? Was it easier to say racketeering? I mean racketeering was one of those things in the '70s where prosecutors and lawmakers said, you know, hell, this is so hard to get these guys, let's get the book and throw it at them in one big offense. Is that why they did RICO with Whitey?

HOSTIN: No. No. In fact, RICO charges are very difficult to prove. One of my legal professors, Professor Blakey (ph), I was his research assistant, and he wrote the statute. It's very difficult to parse through.

Listen, murder has a -- on the state level, it was -- it was the statute of limitation, my understanding is, had run on a couple of these cases. And also, if you go state by state, very difficult to prove because of witnesses dying, witnesses not being -- evidence being destroyed. And so I think the government decided they were going to try the case that was the strongest. And in a case like this, when really it's truly racketeering, you're talking about organized crime, this was the appropriate, appropriate charge -- charges in this case, those underlying (ph) murders.

BANFIELD: With underlying murders. Now you've totally lost me, though. I've always been -- I've always been under the impression that this was the tool that finally could bring down the mob because it was so hard to pin the murders on them. But when you get racketeering, influenced corruption, organization, and I think I've got my "e" "d" and "s" wrong. But when you have all of those options, it's almost like murder conspiracy. Any spoke in the wheel is going to get you. I always thought that the racketeering was an easier way to get at them.

BALDWIN: Let me -- let me hit pause on this conversation for just a moment. We have to get a quick break in. We will come right back to that point. Ashleigh Banfield, Sunny Hostin, stay with me. All of you stand with me as we are awaiting our correspondent to come out of the courtroom and she can walk us through exactly what happened in the last few moments in this trial as the verdict was read for mob boss James "Whitey" Bulger. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right, breaking news. We've been all over this Whitey Bulger verdict. And we will come back to Boston as soon as we get our correspondent out of that federal courthouse and in front of a camera as we await Deborah Feyerick. She can tell us and talk us through the emotions inside this federal courtroom as we have now learned Whitey Bulger has been found guilty of 31 of those 32 counts against him. So we're going to come back to Boston here momentarily.

But let me tell you about this. Did you know that our prisons cost us $80 billion a year? Here in the land of the free, we have 5 percent of the world's population, but nearly 25 percent of the world's inmate population. So we are the clear number one.

Back in 2010, we had 2.2 million prisoners, blowing away human rights abuser China. Even with its gulags, Russia can't even touch us. Look at these numbers. Not even close. Is it the people, us, or the system? Just a short time ago, the attorney general said, we've got to change something.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We will start by fundamentally rethinking the notion of mandatory minimum sentences for drug-related crimes. Some statutes that mandate inflexible sentences, and this is regardless of the individual conduct that is at issue in a particular case, reduce the discretion available to prosecutors, judges and to juries because they oftentimes generate unfairly long sentences, they breed disrespect for the system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That is Eric Holder announcing just last hour a long-term prison reform package designed to reduce the number of inmates and save some money that we spend to feed and to house them. And as you heard him say, it all starts with these strict sentencing guidelines authored way back when in Washington that a lot of folks believed are just quite simply overly harsh and grossly unfair.