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Vladimir Putin's Message to Americans; Gun Debate Heats Up; Amusement Park Sued n Woman's Death

Aired September 12, 2013 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: As the U.S. and Russia meet behind closed doors, the backlash grows over Vladimir Putin's harsh message to Americans.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now.

(voice-over): A pianist says Bashar al-Assad's forces brutally attacked his parents after the musician performed a song at the White House. Hear his chilling story.

Plus, the race to save a driver in Colorado's flooding takes a horrific turn.

And machine guns are illegal in America. But what company found a way around that? See how this rifle works.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Here we go. I'm Brooke Baldwin, hour two. A lot is happening this hour.

Talks in Geneva under way. Talks to try to get Syria to relinquish its chemical weapons stockpile. Secretary of State John Kerry, he kicked things off with a message to Damascus and to his Russian counterpart here, Sergei Lavrov, who is looking after Syria's interests.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: This is not a game, and I said that to my friend Sergei when we talked about it initially. It has to be real. It has to be comprehensive. It has to be verifiable. It has to be credible. It has to be timely and implemented in a timely fashion. And, finally, there ought to be consequences if it doesn't take place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: More than once, you heard it right there, Kerry reminded the Syrians, reminded the Russians that the Obama administration reserves the right to strike Syria militarily should the talks not bear fruit rather quickly. Russia and Syria are saying drop the threat now, as a condition of these talks. Fareed Zakaria joining me now from New York, host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS." And here he is from San Diego, journalist Robert Pelton, war correspondent and author of guide "The World's Most Dangerous Places."

Robert, welcome back to you.

And, Fareed, let me kick things off with you here because we have John Kerry and he's saying, hey, listen, the threat we made is actually the thing that forced Syria to agree to these talks to begin with. And then you have the Russians saying, get the threat off the table right now. My question to you is, are these negotiating tactics or is this a disagreement that could end the talks really before they even get started?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's unlikely to end the talks before they get started. But I think that it reflects the very different way in which both sides are viewing this.

I think the United States is viewing this as an opportunity to actually achieve what even missile strikes or airstrikes would not have achieved, which is the destruction of some part of Assad's chemical weapons arsenal.

Remember, airstrikes would not actually destroy the chemical weapons because you don't strike the chemical weapons. You strike at various military targets as punishment for having used chemical weapons. So this is an opportunity, as the Obama administration sees it, to actually do something about those chemical weapons.

From the Russian point of view, what they're trying to do is more than anything else prevent the United States from being able to use military force unilaterally. This has been a Russian obsession, particularly since Libya. But it dates way back to the Kosovo operation. The Russians believe that they live in an international system in which the United States gets to decide when and where a human rights violation has taken place, an international law violation has taken place, and we use force, the United States that is, uses force whenever they want.

They want in some way to curtail that or end that sort of set of precedents that have allowed that to happen. That's the big struggle on the two sides.

BALDWIN: That's the struggle, since we're talking chemical weapons. Robert, let me bring you back in, because where we ended, when we were talking about this very sort of exclusive group of people with this ability and knowledge and expertise to be able to go into a country in the middle of a civil war, and begin the process of incinerating, destroying, et cetera.

Can you just be really specific and help all of us understand exactly how complicated and how long this process would take once they then get through this war and finding these locations? How do you begin to incinerate? ROBERT PELTON, AUTHOR, "THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS PLACES": Well, first of all, you have to have access on the ground. Assad does not control his country. He's lost large swathes of it to rebel groups.

So, first of all, you would have to secure the physical storage and preparation area in which these chemicals were formulated and then encapsulated in the delivery systems. You would then have to construct an incineration building or it could be a mobile lab. We have some mobile labs.

And then you would have to begin the very slow and deliberate process of incinerating every single weapon shell, container, and then you have to, like demining, any other careful thing, you would have to then confirm there were no other chemicals. The problem is, Assad doesn't control his borders. He doesn't even control some of these weapons dumps. There's no absolute in this discussion. Secondly, while this is going on, and you said after the war, the war is not going to stop.

BALDWIN: Great point.

PELTON: If this is one agreement, it does not end the war. The war is a continual battle of shelling and aerial strikes between Assad's troops and civilians and rebels in the country. There's going to be a war going on.

BALDWIN: Great point, and it's something perhaps that was some of subconscious well-wishing on my behalf. But you're exactly right. That is not necessarily all ending.

Let me ask you this, though, because in talking to experts, you think of the Gulf War, you think of Saddam Hussein basically saying to his scientists, hey, you can't tell everyone where all of our, you know, weapons are, or else you're out. How can -- I shouldn't say we -- how can the world, how can these neutral inspectors really ultimately know that Bashar al-Assad is telling the truth? Do satellites show these things?

PELTON: No.

OK, I was in Syria in 2003. And I was looking for WMDs along the border inside Iraq. There is no guarantee of anything, and the U.N. is probably the worst organization to be put in charge of finding and monitoring weapons. We spent 10 years in Iraq between the two wars, between 2000 and 2003 war, looking for weapons, counting them, and we still believe there are WMDs there.

Historically, look back at 2003 when we were threatening to bomb Syria for having WMDs and also accusing Saddam Hussein. The U.N. had been there for a decade.

BALDWIN: Fareed, I heard you want to jump in. Go ahead.

ZAKARIA: I think the key to the question you're asking is the inspectors have to have the ability to in some way verify the kind of lists the Syrian government will give. The Syrian government will be expected to provide a list of where its weapons, where these chemical weapons are, the facilities, and they would have to go in. Inspectors would have to go in and verify. In the Iraq case, actually, I think what did happen over that decade was that the Iraqi officials did provide those lists. Inspectors did verify them. In some cases, there were mistakes.

Remember that, in the course of that period, a huge number of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons were destroyed. In fact, you know, Richard Butler, the man who headed up the last U.N. inspection team, in his final report said that he thought all but a small handful of chemical weapons had been destroyed, and, in point of fact, he argues that that is why we found no WMD, no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when we went in and invaded, that in fact the U.N. inspectors in a very long, complicated cat and mouse game, had managed to do it.

But the key was that they had to get -- you know, the initial inventory is very important. What you say you have, and then the ability to check whether or not that is -- that is the key. It all hinges really on whether the Syrian government is playing a game or whether they believe naturally because of the threat that they now have to do this, they have to actually sign the chemical weapons treaty, and they will live up to it.

If that is not their intention, then the inspectors, whether there's a war zone or not a war zone, it's irrelevant, because they know where all the stuff is. They produced it. If they lie about it from the start, it becomes essentially impossible to verify.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me move on from the chemical weapons. I have many other questions. We will save them for another day. I want to specifically talk about "The New York Times" op-ed this morning penned by the leader of Russia, Vladimir Putin.

We just heard this from the House minority leader.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: But what I found interesting was the closing. He says, when we pray to God, he judges us all.

I don't know exactly what his words are, but he said that we're all God's children. I think that's great. I hope that it applies to gays and lesbians in Russia as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Fareed, this op-ed, at one point, Putin chides President Obama for what he said the other night about American exceptionalism, saying that people who consider themselves exceptional are dangerous. Why do you think he wrote it? And why the tone of the piece?

ZAKARIA: Well, Vladimir Putin has always wanted to set himself up as a kind of in opposition to the idea that the United States is the only superpower in the world, is the hegemon. He has always resisted that idea. He's always tried to in some way present an alternative to other countries.

There was a while that he tried to create a Russian-Chinese axis. That didn't work out so well. Remember, this is guy who was a KGB operator, regarded the destruction of the Soviet Union in his words as the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century. I think a certain amount of this is a kind of nostalgia for a world in which the United States was not quite as dominant as it is.

BALDWIN: Nostalgia?

ZAKARIA: I have to say it also was very intelligent. It was a well- written piece. I was struck by how cleverly crafted it was, and it ended by saying, yes, the United States should not think of itself as exceptional. That's dangerous. We are all God's children and we're all created equally.

(CROSSTALK)

ZAKARIA: It was very, you know, whoever wrote it, and I suspect it was not Vladimir Putin, is actually a very skilled wordsmith.

ZAKARIA: Fareed Zakaria of "Fareed Zakaria GPS," thank you.

Robert Pelton, thank you. Come back. I have got more questions for you. Thank you so much, both of you.

Back here at home, rescue workers in Colorado, they are trying to reach these people cut off by these torrential rains and mudslides. Look at this. At least three people are dead and that number could rise after heavy rains hit north of Denver. These were the tense moments this morning as a man was trapped in his car, surrounded by the rushing floodwaters.

And that was from this morning.

(WEATHER UPDATE)

BALDWIN: Coming up, question: Should blind people be able to own guns? In one state, it's a reality. Meantime, in Chicago, they just got rid of the gun registry there. Listen, this gun control debate is heating up across the country, but who is winning? We're going to discuss that.

Plus, just in to CNN, nothing made by humans has ever entered interstellar space. Where's Buzz Lightyear when you need him? To infinity and beyond. Take a look at what we're learning today about the Voyager.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: So the latest chapter in the battle over gun right is now playing out in Chicago, a city legendary in its gun violence. Almost 300 killings thus far this year, more than 500 last. The Chicago City Council has voted to stop requiring Chicago gun owners to register their firearms and get a city permit. Chicago's gun registry had been around since 1968. The City Council didn't have a choice. Recent court filings resulted in this new Illinois law that puts the issuance of all gun permits and licenses in the hands of the state. This Chicago move comes on the heels of Colorado's ousting of two lawmakers who backed strict gun control laws, one of whom we talked to this past hour, and also this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good shot. Come down. Squeeze real slow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The revelation that blind people can and do legally buy and carry guns in the state of Iowa.

David Sirota is a syndicated columnist and radio host and conservative CNN commentator Ben Ferguson joining me.

Guys, welcome.

David, let me just begin with you. I know you are from -- you are for gun control. But given all the stories that I just rattled off, isn't the other side winning the debate lately?

DAVID SIROTA, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: I think that at the polls, the other side is winning the argument, although I would say when it comes to Colorado, there was a low turnout election, so that wasn't really indicative of public will when you look at the polls here in Colorado.

But I do think you're right. When you look at the policy victories, certainly, the gun lobby has won the policy victories, and I think with the help of the courts. As you mentioned, I think what's interesting in this dynamic and I would say troubling is that the courts are helping usurp local municipalities' power to actually regulate guns.

In other words, the courts are taking a very anti-federalist position, saying the power of huge government to force municipalities to do what the court wants, that's really dictating, as you mentioned, the situation in Chicago and the situation in a lot of other cities.

BALDWIN: Ben, what do you think?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, or the courts are actually looking at the Constitution and the right to bear arms and realizing that when Chicago oversteps and does things to the extreme, it doesn't always go well with the Constitution, which is the founding document for all of the court systems.

So I think the problem is you have these municipalities that have been overreaching. Look at Chicago. They have had some of the most extensive gun control and one of the best registries in all of the United States of America. Yet they have some of the highest crime rates, which goes back to prove the point a lot of people said was, law-abiding citizens are not the issue here. They will register their guns, and they will pay the taxes to have them registered.

And it doesn't mean that it's going to make the city safer and Chicago is a perfect example of that. And that's where I think a lot of people say, maybe passing more laws is not doing very much, instead of going after the bad guys that buy the guns illegally on the black market in the first place.

BALDWIN: You know, I wanted to know...

SIROTA: What I would say to that...

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, respond to him. And then I'm going to jump in with a poll.

SIROTA: Very quickly, what I would just say is that citing Chicago's crime statistics presupposes that those crime statistics are driven by its gun laws, as opposed to asking the question, how much worse could the situation be if those gun laws weren't on the books, especially considering the recent study that show that the states that have the toughest gun laws tend to have the least amount of gun violence?

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Let me point out, hang on, because I wanted to know just how Americans think. I know how you two feel. We asked about keeping a national list of gun owners; 44 percent said the federal government should use background checks to create a list; 55 percent said no.

That was just something from a couple of months ago. But I want to move on, and, David, it's interesting you're in Colorado. I talked to Angela Giron. She was one of the two state senators who was recently ousted in that recall there. I know she made it crystal clear to me she thought that that loss was about voter suppression and the complication of just what was exactly on the ballot.

But another point that others have definitely made is that when you look at the -- you think money would win, but in this case, it didn't. You had this plumber ultimately, and even the powerful lobbying group the NRA against Mayor Bloomberg, the billionaire, and his mega-group who outspent the NRA, yet still, you see what happened in the outcome of this election.

If it's not about money here, what is winning this debate?

SIROTA: I think it's intensity.

When you look at -- there was a recent Pew survey that showed that people who own guns and who consider themselves pro-gun are more single-issue voters on that issue than people who are for gun control. And so when you have a low-turnout situation where the mail ballot situation, which is used typically, is thrown out and it's a different voting situation, the most motivated, hard-core minority can win elections in a situation where, as I said, the polls showed that this state didn't want the recalls in the first place, and this state, still overall, the whole state, supports the modest gun control measures that were passed by the legislation.

BALDWIN: Ben, you watched the interview. Do you agree that's what it was about?

FERGUSON: No, and it makes me laugh. I mean, the poor woman, if she would have had the same excitement of getting the votes out, getting her people out, she would have been fine.

The problem was everyone knew this election was happening. Look at how much money, unprecedented in history, was spent in a little state rep type race. This was huge money. Everyone in the community knew about this Election Day and about this recall. The nation knew it was happening. The problem was she aligned herself with Mayor Bloomberg, who has no business in Colorado politics, has no business even getting involved.

And I think what you saw here was the voters rejected an outsider billionaire trying to come in and manipulate the state recall, the state law, and they knew the election was happening. They rejected Mayor Bloomberg's outside money in a place where he did not belong and is not a resident.

BALDWIN: David, you get to respond to that.

SIROTA: I would agree with that. I would absolutely agree with that. I think there's something to that.

I think that, for instance, Governor John Hickenlooper, who remains somewhat -- well, really fairly popular in the state when you look at polls, the campaign didn't resolve around him supporting these laws. Ben is absolutely right. It revolved around Mayor Bloomberg using a huge amount of money to try to sway the election.

I think even if you separate out the issue of guns, when you have such a big, powerful, money force jump into a race like that, whether it's the NRA or Mike Bloomberg, people can viscerally react to that regardless of what the issue is that is at the center of the debate.

BALDWIN: I asked her about that. I said, hey, what about this out- of-state money coming from Bloomberg, did that maybe taint this for you? I think she said -- I think she ultimately said, yes, maybe, but a lot of it she said, putting it again back to voter suppression.

David Sirota and Ben Ferguson, thanks, you two, always, very much for coming on. Love hearing both of your perspectives.

Coming up, a woman falls to her death after being thrown off this roller coaster. Now Six Flags faces this lawsuit. Did this popular amusement park ignore safety precautions on this roller coaster, the Texas Giant? We're going to talk about that "On the Case."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: It is back up and running this weekend, the Texas Giant, Six Flags Over Texas reopening that roller coaster just days after a lawsuit was filed over a deadly fall; 52-year-old Rosy Esparza, she was visiting the park back in July when she slipped out of her lap bar going down the roller coaster's first huge hill. The lawsuit says Esparza was upside down, holding on for dear life and then fell 75 feet to her death.

CNN legal analyst Sunny Hostin is in New York.

Sunny, I know that this lawsuit contains some pretty disturbing, is that the right word, details about what exactly Esparza went through. What happened?

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think certainly that's the right word. This was just a disturbing and horrific death.

I have the lawsuit in front of me. It's about 16 pages. And it outlines what exactly happened to Mrs. Esparza. I think what is so terrible about this is that her daughter and son-in-law were in the seats in front of her and could not do anything. They heard her screaming, Brooke. They turned around, and then they saw her upside down, head down, feet up holding on for dear life.

And they also witnessed her falling 75 feet. And it took them quite some time to get off the roller coaster ride. They had to continue the ride. They weren't left off immediately -- let off immediately. And all of that is outlined here. I have got to tell you, I read a lot of lawsuits, of course. I read a lot of facts, and this is extremely, extremely disturbing, because it outlines the last moments of someone who was watched by their loved ones die.

BALDWIN: Awful, awful, awful. And then you have the lawsuit.

So you have read that this suit is accusing Six Flags of putting thrills over safety -- quote -- "building extreme roller coasters that are bigger, faster, and more dangerous," and Six Flags is promoting a new ride. It's called the Drop of Doom. You fall 415 feet, 90 miles per hour.

Do you think the family has a good case here?

HOSTIN: Well, you know, there are always defenses to these kinds of cases. And this is not the first death that has happened at an amusement park, Brooke.

And, unfortunately, I don't think it will be the last, but, of course, the amusement park may argue, listen, when you get on a roller coaster, you are assuming the risk, so to speak. You know that it's a dangerous act.

They will also probably argue that, when you get that ticket, on the very back of the ticket, there's all these...

BALDWIN: Teeny-tiny print.

HOSTIN: ... this legalese on the back, and you know what the dangers are involved.

I don't think that will hold water in a case like this. I suspect that this is not a case that will go to trial. This is a case that is ripe for settlement.

Six Flags doesn't need us to talk about it. I'm sure they don't want us to talk about it. They don't need this kind of publicity.

And, so, you know, I do think that the family has a good case here. And I suspect that this is a case that will settle quietly between the family and Six Flags.

BALDWIN: You mentioned Six Fags doesn't really want us talking. We should mention we reached out to Six Flags to comment on the lawsuit, and they're not commenting.

Sunny Hostin, thank you.