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Terror Group Attacks Kenya Mall; Another Night of Violence in Chicago; Al Qaeda Attack at Kenyan Mall; Conversation About American Gun Violence; "Breaking Bad" Racks Up 13 Emmy Nominations; Technology Plays Big Role in Breaking News Out Of Kenya

Aired September 21, 2013 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Martin Savidge, in for Don Lemon.

And we have breaking news right now, where some Americans have been wounded in an apparent terrorist attack in a shopping mall overseas.

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(GUNFIRE)

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SAVIDGE: This is the terrifying scene in Nairobi, Kenya, today. A group of armed men stormed this crowded mall and they started shooting. According to Kenya's president the office there at least says that 39 people have been killed and 150 wounded. And there are Americans who were inside that mall when the attack happened. They tell CNN that shots rang out and grenades exploded and that people hid in stairwells and under cars in the parking lot until police arrived. We are told that at least one of the attackers is dead.

The rest are still said to be holed up inside the mall. And it is now past midnight in Nairobi. We do have some indication as to who is behind this attack. An extremist group with ties to al Qaeda posted a claim of responsibility on their twitter account. The group is called al Shabaab. And it has been issuing threats for violence for years. More about this extremist group in just a couple of minutes.

The president of Kenya just addressed his people. And that was on television. He mentioned that he also lost what he calls, quote, "close family members," unquote, in that shopping mall attack. He didn't elaborate on that, but listen to his message for the people of Kenya.

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PRES. UHURU KENYATTA, KENYA: We have overcome terrorist attacks before. In fact, we have forward courageously and defeated them within and outside our borders. We will defeat them again. Terrorism in and of itself is a philosophy of cowards. The way we lead our lives in freedom, openness, unity and consideration for each other represents our victory over those who wish us ill. We are as brave and invincible as the lions on our coat of arms. My government stands ready to defend the nation from internal as well as external aggression. I urge all Kenyans to stand together and see this dark moment through.

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SAVIDGE: Joining me now on the telephone from Nairobi, Kenya is Uche Kaigwa-Okoye. He was inside that mall when the attackers burst in. Mr. Okoye, thank you for joining us. We're very sorry what your country is going through right now. But where were you and what did you see? How did you know when this attack began?

UCHE KAIGWA-OKOYE, WITNESSED NAIROBI MALL ATTACK: I was -- thank you first of all. I was on the first floor in the cafe. And this cafe has a downstairs department -- they have a section upstairs and downstairs. And I was in the upstairs. And the shooting started downstairs. And what first sounded like clapping became faster and then as I walked towards the ledge of the mall to see down into the middle of the mall, I then heard the gunshots louder as they started shooting up. And apparently they bombed the cafe downstairs.

SAVIDGE: So had you been downstairs then you could have easily been killed at that moment. But instead what did you do, you run, you hide? What happened?

KAIGWA-OKOYE: Well, as soon as we were sure it was gunshots, and it sounded like an AK-47. It was definitely semiautomatic because they were single shots fired. And then you could hear the sequential pop- pop sort of shots. And then I ran to the exit with my company, the person I was having coffee with, and once we reached the fire escape we could hear gunshots outside. And there were security officers that were ahead of us. And they had seen the men told us to run back inside because they were shooting anyone who was trying to leave. So I was a bit confused. And I didn't want to go back to where I just heard gunshots. So I sort of waited in between the staircase and the fire exit and going back to the mall to see what happens. And slowly making my way back to the mall and that's when they had reached the first floor and we could clearly hear that they were firing, maybe 20 meters from us. But in another direction.

SAVIDGE: Let me ask you real quick before we run out of time here --

KAIGWA-OKOYE: I ran into a corridor to go into the bathroom. They were firing down the corridor we were just coming.

SAVIDGE: And how long was it before help arrive to try to get you out?

KAIGWA-OKOYE: Well, help was there. We would hear it that it was on the news and they had surrounded the building, but we were stuck for five hours -- between four and five hours.

SAVIDGE: And when you finally came out --

KAIGWA-OKOYE: We were hiding in the bathroom cubicle.

SAVIDGE: When you came out, what did you see as you were taken out of the building?

KAIGWA-OKOYE: There were teargas canisters that hit the walls. There were glass walls that had been shattered. We were walking on glass. Teargas was just clearing. There were bullets, a lot of casualties -- there were dead bodies. Most peculiar sight to see dead bodies next to escalators and handbags and such normal shopping mall scene with such gruesomeness.

SAVIDGE: It would be for anyone. Of course, it's still ongoing, correct?

KAIGWA-OKOYE: Unfortunately it's still ongoing. I left an hour ago and they've blocked off all the roads and there are still people being held captive inside. There are volunteers nearby. And the bodies are going to a morgue nearby as well.

SAVIDGE: Mr. Okoye, thank you very much for joining us from Nairobi, Kenya. We'll be checking back. Thank you.

As we reported earlier an extremist group has claimed responsibility for attacking that mall killing 39 and wounding 150. That group is very well-known to the intelligence community and is being affiliated with al Qaeda in East Africa.

So I want to talk with Rick Francona about this group. And Rick is a retired U.S. military intelligence officer, I should point this out and a CNN military analyst. And Rick, al Shabaab is a name that we have heard before. They are said to be behind this attack. Just remind us who they are and why they would target civilians at a shopping mall.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, this is a group resident in Somalia. They had a real cause celebre in the U.S. They were trying to recruit a lot of Americans to fight for them. There's a lot of problems inside this organization, Martin. They're really fractured right now. There's one faction that wants to work only in Somalia. And there's another that wants to go in a global jihad. But the reason they're attacking Kenya is because Kenya has been supporting the Somalia government in their efforts to eradicate these people.

The Kenyan people, the Kenyan air force had been very effective. And so striking out against Kenya makes perfect sense. Going after this mall makes perfect sense. This is a soft target. It's in a high profile area. There's going to be a lot of foreigners there, a lot of wealthy there. This is -- this was well-planned and well-thought out.

SAVIDGE: And you know, we talk about Kenya, many people may think that this is far away and removed from the United States, but there actually is a strong link between the United States and Kenya. And terrorism going back to 1998.

FRANCONA: Oh, absolutely. You know, we've been involved in the global war in terror for a long time with the Kenyans. You know, we lost -- our embassy was attacked there in August. I lost some friends in that embassy bombing. And, you know, there's been a lot of Islamic fundamentalist groups like that operating in Kenya. Kenya's also been the venue for attacks against Israeli interests as well. Lots of Israeli interest in the country. In fact, this particular mall is owned by an Israeli corporation.

SAVIDGE: And, you know, should we be worried in this country about this kind of a group and these kind of attacks?

FRANCONA: Well, I don't think they have the reach right now to strike somewhere in the United States. But they do have the capability to strike American interests overseas. And that's what you're seeing here. They're going after western targets. They want to inflict pain on the west. And they want to use Kenya to do it. They want to embarrass the Kenyan government. And events like this get headlines all over the world. If they had attacked a purely Kenyan target, we may not be talking about it. But when you've got all these westerners involved, that's when you get the publicity that they want. This is how they operate.

SAVIDGE: Uh-huh. CNN military expert Rick Francona. He'll be back again next hour. Thank you very much. We'll talk to you then.

FRANCONA: Sure.

SAVIDGE: There's other news to tell you about. A gunman killed three members of a U.S. Army Special Forces unit today in Eastern Afghanistan. He wore an Afghan army uniform and he opened fire during a training exercise. The attacker was immediately shot dead by Afghan soldiers. It's not clear if he stole that uniform or was actually part of the Afghan army. It is the seventh reported insider attack this year. Similar attacks killed dozens of coalition soldiers last year.

Well, the government's inching closer to a possible shutdown. And there's just nine days left to reach a deal on a budget. House Republicans have passed a plan, but it includes a big problem for Democrats. It would strip funding for the health care reform law also known as Obamacare. CNN's Erin McPike has more.

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ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the coming week, the battle will shift to the Senate. But on Friday it was a rare moment for House Speaker John Boehner, united Republicans celebrated their vote to defund Obamacare.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: The American people don't want the government shut down. And they don't want Obamacare.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: The yays are 230 and the nays are 189. The joint resolution is passed without objection, a motion to reconsider is laid on the table.

MCPIKE: All but one republican voted for the measure. And two Democrats joined them, prompting this exuberant response.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), MAJORITY WHIP: That's why today when we acted, it wasn't just a group of Republicans but it was a bipartisan vote.

MCPIKE: It was a show of force from conservatives who insisted on defunding Obamacare as a condition for approving a bill that keeps the government running. But their effort is dead on arrival in the Senate. And Democrats seized on the potential consequences.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: What is brought to the floor today is without a doubt -- without a doubt a measure designed to shut down government. It could have no other intent. Its purpose is clear.

MCPIKE: House Republicans are working to shift blame for the threat of a government shutdown onto Democrats who control the Senate.

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R), MINORITY LEADER: Now it is up to Senate Democrats to show some responsibility and follow the House's lead.

MCPIKE: They're putting the squeeze on vulnerable democratic senators up for re-election in red states.

CANTOR: I want to know where Senator Pryor stands on protecting the middle class? From the consequences of this horrific bill.

MCPIKE: Cantor singled out Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor and three other Democrats, Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and Mark Begich of Alaska. But two of these senators Landrieu and Begich have already told CNN they won't vote to strip money from health care. Just nine days remain for the Senate to vote on its plan to fund the government without cutting Obamacare and pass the buck back to the house.

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SAVIDGE: And Erin McPike joins me now live from Washington. And Erin, what do we expect to happen this week?

MCPIKE: Well, the bill is moving to the Senate. And Senate Republicans have indicated to CNN late this week that what they will do is vote to move forward with debate on the house bill. That gets the bill into a procedural position where Democrats need just 51 votes to restore funding to Obamacare and then can vote on the full bill and they need just 51 votes to pass it that then ping-pongs this bill back to the house. And we expect the house to be in session next weekend to vote on this again. And it looks like things are going down to the wire. Martin.

SAVIDGE: I think you can guarantee it. Erin McPike, thanks very much.

Well, today was the deadline and Syria met it. An international watchdog group confirms it's received a list of chemical weapons from the regime. But how much information were they willing to share? Well, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SAVIDGE: Today's the deadline for Syria to turn over information about its supply of chemical weapons. And according to the organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons, Syria has submitted a declaration about its chemical stockpiles. The question now is, how detailed is that information that Syria is sharing?

For more on that, let's bring in our Ivan Watson, and Ivan, what have you learned so far? Nice to see you by the way.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you too, Martin. You'd be surprised to hear that of all the people to be almost applauding the Syrian regime, we've got a U.S. senior administration official, Martin, who has come out saying that the White House is surprised and encouraged by the amount of information that Syria has now shared about its chemical weapons arsenal. And it's not just the U.S. that was asking for this information for today's deadline. This was part of an agreement hammered out by the U.S. and Russia last week. And that agreement really stipulated that Syria had to come fully clean about not only what kinds of chemical weapons it has, but how much of them, where they're stored, where they're produced and where their research and development facilities are.

And that information, some of it appears to have actually been handed over to this organization that's in charge of disposing of these chemical weapons. Their experts are now reviewing this document. And with intelligence estimates of up to 1,000 metric tons of chemical weapons in Syria's arsenal, you can imagine there's an awful lot of material probably for those experts to be looking over right now -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: And I guess the real question here is, you know, not when will they hand over the list, but when can we expect Syria's chemical weapons to be handed over?

WATSON: I think there's still a lot of diplomacy to be done after the technical experts go through these documents, then you've got the executive council of this organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons, they have to meet and decide on it. And then it's supposed to go to the United Nations Security Council. And there's still disagreements of course between Russia, Syria's strongest backer on the U.N. Security Council, and of course the U.S., France and Britain, the biggest critics of the Syrian regime over whether or not that next resolution would include a threat of use of force if Syria doesn't totally hand over all of its chemical weapons.

And then after that of course there'd be the sheer logistical challenge of trying to ensure the safety of any United Nations inspectors that would be on the ground in Syria in the midst of a horrendous civil war that has included not only artillery and air strikes and scud missile strikes, but also deadly car bombs, kidnapping and on August 21st as the U.N. investigation has concluded, large use of chemical weapons that killed at least 1,400 civilians -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: There's still a great deal of skepticism. Ivan Watson in New York. Thanks very much.

WATSON: Some have equated Chicago to a city under siege. Nearly a dozen shot, four of them killed in just the last 24 hours. And that follows a shooting Thursday night when 13 people were hit by gunfire in a park. All of this happening while the city says things are getting better. We're going in depth next.

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SAVIDGE: In Chicago 11 people shot overnight, four of them killed. Thirteen people shot Thursday night, one of them a three-year-old boy. But these aren't rare or isolated incidents, it's just another night on the city's south side. Once again, Chicago is in the spotlight over gun violence, a chilling reminder that it is the city with the highest number of homicides in the country. Families are at a breaking point.

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SEMERCA NUNN, HER 3-YEAR-OLD GRANDSON WAS SHOT: It needs to stop. It needs to stop. You all out here killing these innocent people, kids, parents, grandparents, mothers, fathers. It got to stop. You all need to stop.

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SAVIDGE: In a statement, President Obama weighed in on the violence in his hometown via a spokeswoman. He sends his thoughts and prayers to the several victims who were shot last night and hopes for their speedy recovery. The President remains committed to pushing Congress to pass common sense measures and is doing everything in his executive power to reduce gun violence. Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel calls the acts senseless and brazen and he says that they have no place in Chicago. The police chief says that this is something we cannot accept in a civilized society.

SUPT. GARY F. MCCARTHY, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Illegal guns, illegal guns, illegal guns drive violence. Military-type weapons, like the one we believe to have been used in this shooting belong on a battlefield, not on a street or in a corner or in a park in the back of the yards. This country should have a ban on assault weapons and high capacity magazines like the ones used in this event. It's common sense.

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SAVIDGE: And this is the perfect place to bring in Don Lemon, who is in Los Angeles. And Don, I know normally you're here in this chair, but you had the weekend off. But felt so strongly about this topic that you wanted to come in and do this story anyway. Violence in Chicago has been a story that's been very close to your heart for some time. Why?

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Because I lived there. I have roots in Chicago. I have many friends and loved ones in Chicago. People I love a lot. And I spend a lot of time on those streets and in those neighborhoods and as a matter of fact a couple years ago I spent time there interviewing people who had fallen victim to this gun violence and people who perpetrated this gun violence.

I want to bring in now psychologist Wendy Walsh, a criminal defense attorney Holly Hughes is here as well. And also, Peter Nickeas, he is a breaking news reporter for the Chicago Tribune. Thank you all so much for joining us and for coming in on a Saturday. This is story as I've said and Martin has said is very near and dear to me. And I'd love to get to Chicago once I'm done here to report more on the story.

Peter, I'm going to start with you because you're there. So you're the overnight reporter for the tribune, basically you cover crime and you cover violence in the city. You've been out on these streets. I want you to help put into perspective for us the 24 people shot there in just two days.

PETER NICKEAS, CHICAGO TRIBUNE BREAKING NEWS CENTER REPORTER: Well, the 24 people shot overnight Thursday into Friday, it was a bad night aside from the 13 people getting shot in the park there were three homicides. But it's not terribly uncommon to have a night when you have a number of murderers and even more nonfatal gunshot victims, to have so many people shot in one incident is rare here, but there have been in the last year and a half or so more than 500 shootings in which more than two people have been shot. So, I mean, you're looking at 22 to 2,500 gunshot victims each year, you know, 400, 450 or so die. Shootings are pretty common here.

LEMON: They are pretty common. But, listen, crime rate is down. And we're going to get into that. But one wonders, you know, and police say the crime rate is down when you hear all these incidents like this, you just begin to wonder what is really going on, what is the underlying problem here? And we've been talking about this for years. Holly, I want to bring you in because these are the kinds of cases that you prosecute.

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Uh-huh.

LEMON: So what is a justice system need to do to make an impact on this violence? And we're talking about Chicago today, but I'm here in Los Angeles. And I've seen reports on the news about two people shot here, three people shot there. I'm sure it's the same on the news in Atlanta. I'm sure it's the same on the news in many big cities across the country. What is the justice system need to do to make a difference, to make an impact here?

HUGHES: Well, Don, it comes down to money. And we don't like to hear that, but that is the bottom line. You need more police officers on the streets. You need more prosecutors in the courtroom. And frankly you need judges who once these people are arrested will sentence them to very long sentences so they don't get out and repeat this violence. You need to have mandatory minimums. If you kill somebody with an assault rifle, the legislature needs to step up here and say, OK, if you kill somebody with an assault rifle, if you kill multiple people in one incident, there's going to be enhanced sentencing for that.

There's going to be a mandatory minimum of, you know, 100 years or whatever number to try to get people to understand. But when you slap somebody on the wrist for aggravated assault and go, well, here's a five-year sentence, you can have probation. They don't take it seriously. And they are right back out there committing these crimes again. And assaulting a community that isn't being protected.

LEMON: OK. I'm glad you said that, assaulting a community that is not being protected. And I'm wondering if they're not being protected because, number one, the people who had the guns shouldn't have them. And the people who don't have them are the ones who are being assaulted. And number two, Holly, you're talking about the legal aspect, the justice system.

HUGHES: Right.

LEMON: But what about the people who are actually doing the shooting, Wendy? Where does this mindset come from that you can just go out and shoot people? This is how you handle your business, this is how you take care of problems.

WENDY WALSH, HUMAN BEHAVIOR EXPERT: You know, Holly is talking about the after effects of this kind of violence. When I think about psychology, I want to think about the prevention of this stuff. And it's all zero to three. We need more support in our culture for all the single parents that are out there whether they are a single dad or a single mom, it's just too much when you're working full time to be a good parent, as well. Plenty are doing it, I know that. But this is why the young folks find gangs. Because it's a surrogate family for them. This is why the moral teaching isn't there anymore, because mom or dad is off trying to just make enough money to get food on the table. And that's enough. And also I think, Don, we're going to go there, we're going to talk about gun control and the buyback programs. Go ahead.

LEMON: OK. We'll talk about that. But there are people who are sitting here looking and listen, I understand it's tough. I came from a single family. My mom was a single mother for a very long time. But there are people out there saying, hey, listen, why should I give my hard earned money, I'm out there trying to put food on my table trying to pay the rent and pay the mortgage, why should I raise your kids and your kids are growing up and shooting my kids?

WALSH: Because you risk being a victim then. You know, it's our choice. We can raise good employees and good entrepreneurs in our village here, or we can raise prisoners. We can raise people who buy semi-assault weapons and take them to a park. It's our village and we are a national community. And we have to start to think about how we can support families especially in those vulnerable early years. Because our personality development, our moral reasoning and our emotional intelligence is really grown from zero to five. We've got to focus on parents of small children.

LEMON: All right. So I want to talk more about the psychology here about mental health because clearly if you're going out and you're doing this, you probably have a mental health issue in some way. And I also want to talk about what Wendy said. And that is gun control. Talk about that to all of you, especially you, Holly, you know how the legal process works when it comes to this. This conversation is far from over.

Coming up, we're going to look at the raw numbers. We're going to look at the numbers and we're going to search for solutions. Murders in Chicago are down this year, so why are we still having this conversation? Next, why violence in Chicago is different from any other tragedy in America.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Hi, I'm Martin Savidge. We'll get back to Don Lemon in just a moment.

We are closely watching the breaking news in Kenya right now. That's where a group of men that are armed burst into a shopping mall and opened fire. That was in Kenya. And today the president -- the office there, has just released a new casualty report. And we're told at least 39 people are dead, 150 more people wounded. And we are now also being told by the State Department that some Americans are among those wounded. An extremist group with ties to al Qaeda has claimed responsibility. And this attack, we remind you, is not over. Gunmen and police are still facing off inside of that mall.

Now we're continuing our conversation about gun violence in America. A conversation sparked by the shootings in Chicago over the last two days that have claimed four lives and left 20 people wounded. A peace march is scheduled there for tonight, and the Chicago Peace Basketball Tournament going on there right now, an event that was organized by current and former NBA players.

Let me bring now back Don Lemon in Los Angeles.

Don, just to get the conversation going again, how does Chicago violence differ, say, from other national tragedies?

LEMON: You know, I wish I knew the answer to that, Marty. I mean, it's just so many people get killed there even though they said that the violence is down, homicide rates are down there. I wish I knew. I wish I knew. Because it seems to be the example that everyone points to in the news because it just happens so much.

Let's bring back in psychologist, Wendy Walsh; and criminal defense attorney, Holly Hughes, and also Peter Nickeas, a breaking news reporter for the "Chicago Tribune".

I wish I could answer Martin's question. It makes me want to cry.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Don, one factor -- one very --

LEMON: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on.

WALSH: OK.

LEMON: I'm here on business, and talking to people -- everyone is coming up to me because it's a big event, a big urban event that's happening here, and it's part of the discussion at the event that I'm at. And everyone is asking what is going on in Chicago? What is going on in Chicago? What is going on in our streets? Why are so many people killing each other with these guns, Wendy? And it's a topic that really is on everyone's mind.

Go ahead. I'm sorry to cut you off.

WALSH: Yeah, well, I'm sorry to cut you off. The one factor is the health care issue. In Chicago, there are more than deaths, not just shootings, but more deaths by gunfire because the trauma centers, their cutbacks have been so great that people are bleeding out in ambulances having to travel 10 and 15 miles to get care. So that's a big problem.

LEMON: Yeah, but there are more deaths because people are shooting. The problem --

WALSH: Well, of course.

LEMON: is that people shooting each other.

WALSH: Of course.

LEMON: Yes, if they weren't shooting each other, you wouldn't need that.

Peter, why do you think only -- the only time America talks about Chicago violence is when the collective numbers really reach a level that they have reached this week when they reach a certain point. Why do you think that it only comes into the conversation then?

PETER NICKEAS, BREAKING NEWS REPORTER, CHICAGO TRIBUNE: You know what, I'm out, I hear from people almost a sense of resignation about what's going on especially among the young people. It was mentioned here yesterday about how a lot of the shooters and victims are so young. The older folks who have been here a long time just shake their heads at it. I think it's been like this for decades. It was worst in the '90s and early part of this decade. You mention crime being down, even if there are half as many homicides and nonfatal shootings as last year, you're still looking at 250 homicides, 1200 non-fatal gunshot victims. It's steady. It's unrelenting. It's been going on for a long time. People are almost resigned to it here. It's sad to say, like you said, I live here too, it disgusts me, but it is something that's on a regular occurrence here.

LEMON: Yeah.

Wendy, again, sorry to cut you off. But I want to get to -- I understand what you're saying about the hospitals. Listen, there's not enough money to go around for a lot of things, but I really want to get into the psyche here and into the mindset to find out what it is that drives people to think it's OK to do this and to talk about mental health. And you also said about gun control. I don't know if that's really the answer here. I think it's more than just gun control. That may be part of it but that's not just it.

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY & FORMER PROSECUTOR: Can I jump in and ask Dr. Wendy something because I used to see this when I was prosecuting?

LEMON: Yeah, go ahead.

HUGHES: And what we see is there's just not -- there's a lack of respect for life. Young people coming up now play games, video games. I mean, I don't want to give the wrong number here on air, but "Grand Theft Auto," Edition 87, whatever it was, premiered the other day and made a ridiculous, I mean astounding amount of money in 24 hours, like $84 million in 24 hours. So what I find, and even when I talk to clients in private, there is no respect for human life. They are brought up shooting at TVs. Guns are just everywhere. It's a game. And they --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But, Holly --

HUGHES: They don't understand the end result. For sure they're becoming desensitized.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: They could be becoming desensitized, but there's no concrete research that shows a connection between violent video games and use of guns.

HUGHES: That's what I want to ask Dr. Wendy because I'm not the doctor.

WALSH: Actually, there is some great research, Don, out of a university --

(CROSSTALK)

WALSH: Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: No, go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

NICKEAS: I would argue that these kids are completely aware of what's going on.

LEMON: Wendy first.

NICKEAS: These kids understand it. They're well aware of the consequences. Even if they're not victims, they play in these parks. They ride bikes up and down the alleys. They hear the screams of the family outside the crime scenes. They hear the sirens flying in. Last night, they had -- Thursday night they had 10 ambulances flying all across the city to get to this crime scene.

(CROSSTALK)

HUGHES: My question wasn't about the victims -- my question is about the perpetrator.

NICKEAS: No --

HUGHES: So I'm asking Dr. Wendy.

(CROSSTALK)

HUGHES: Yeah, right.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Hang on. Hang on. There's a delay. Everybody, hold on. Everybody stop. Everybody stop. There's a delay. So let's be respectful of the audience because they can't understand when everyone is talking.

So, Wendy, a quick answer and then I want to get to break and then come back and talk more. So if you can answer the question that was asked of you.

WALSH: There's some pretty fascinating research out of a university in Toronto showing long-term video game use and the A direct association with increased aggression, even in girls. So, yes, they're becoming desensitized, yes, they're definitely becoming more aggressive.

So, Don, to answer your other question, what we need are buyback programs for the illegal weapons that will make moms and sisters pull weapons out of their sons hands and steal them from their baby daddies and husbands hands. If it's worth a good gift certificate, a grocery store, and you get $500 worth of food, you watch how fast those guns come in. It worked in Australia and it can work here.

LEMON: Wendy, Australia is smaller than Texas. It's smaller than California. It's about the size of Florida. What you're asking of the United States many people find impossible. They don't think that it will ever work here because it's a different country.

Hold your answer, your response to that, and we'll talk about that after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: More of our conversation now about gun violence in America. And you're looking at scenes now -- that is Chicago on Thursday night. A conversation sparked by shootings in Chicago over the last two days that claimed four lives and left 20 people wounded.

I want to bring in Peter Nickeas to talk about the alarming rate of gun homicides in Chicago and just gun use. Holly Hughes is here, criminal prosecutor; and also Wendy Walsh, who is a psychologist.

So, Peter, I want to talk to you about out on the streets. And, listen, when we researched this and tried to get people to do this after these shootings, to get someone to comment on and talk about this from the community, nobody wants to talk. Everyone is afraid. Why is that?

NICKEAS: I think people have a real fear of retaliation. And we hear out in the street a lot. They'll say, you know, I really can't be seen talking to you. And we get it. They live there. And people kind of have an idea of what's going on. I mean, even the kids have an understanding of who's fighting with who. The other night out of the scene where the 13 people were shot, people were able to give us right away what gangs were into it with each other. You can read it off the graffiti on the garages and walls and things like that. But nobody wants to be involved.

LEMON: Yeah. Well, listen, I want to thank -- there's so much we wanted to talk about here.

Wendy, we wanted to talk about the gun buyback program, which you are such a proponent of. And, trust me, this is television, and we're up against a break here, up against another show, so I don't always get as much time as I'd like.

I promise you, viewers on this show, we're going to continue this conversation. I'm going to go to Chicago and to other communities and we will continue this. The alarming crime rate in Chicago, but listen, according to Chicago police, they say that their crime numbers are down. Their violent crime numbers and their homicide numbers are down this year despite the shootings that happened there last night and the night before.

Thanks to my guests.

And we're going to get back to Martin Savidge in just a bit. And I'll get back to my business in L.A. I'll see you soon here on CNN.

We're back after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Just one night away from the Emmy awards. And one drama that is going to be competing in a very big way, AMC's "Breaking Bad." It's racked up 13 Emmy nominations.

Our Marc Istook looks at what makes "Breaking Bad" so popular.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRYAN CRANSTON, ACTOR: Say my name.

MARC ISTOOK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People have been saying his name a lot lately.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brian Cranston, "Breaking Bad."

ISTOOK: Who would have predicted so much attention on a show about TV's scariest high school chemistry teacher who makes meth to pay for his cancer treatment.

JONATHAN BANKS, ACTOR: What is it with you guys? ISTOOK: Good question. 13 Emmy nominations this year, critical acclaim, record ratings, it's a good time to be bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Breaking Bad" is really hot. So people who maybe hadn't watched it are watching it now.

ISTOOK: Are they ever. Almost six million people watched the mid- season premiere. And they're not just watching. They're tweeting and blogging and breaking down "Breaking Bad".

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You go online and it's like a deconstruction that used to be reserved for Shakespeare, for, like, honors papers on Shakespeare.

ISTOOK (on camera): And you can find plenty of that devotion here on YouTube. A quick search for "Breaking Bad" fan videos yields almost 400,000 results.

(voice-over): Whether it's the fake "Breaking Bad" sitcom --

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I'm talking to Ted.

(LAUGHTER)

ISTOOK: -- or a Jimmy Fallon spoof, "Joking Bad."

CRANSTON: There's no end to what we can do.

ISTOOK: But there is an end to the show. And the closer it gets, the more everybody wants to know how the show will end. Well, almost everybody.

BOB ODENKIRK, ACTOR: I don't want to know. I want to watch it just like you people. I'm just as much a fan as you are.

ISTOOK: But he won't be saying good-bye just yet. AMC recently announced a spin-off of Odenkirk's character.

ODENKIRK: Better call Saul.

ISTOOK: Perhaps as suspenseful as the show's ending, will the "Breaking Bad" buzz help come Emmy time?

JESSICA HECKT, ACTRESS: "Breaking Bad" is the show to beat. Period. End of statement. It's "Breaking Bad" here.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Wouldn't it be great if we got a win?

ISTOOK: Cranston nabbed three straight Emmys for playing Walter White. Now he's just getting ready to say good-bye to what he's called the role of a lifetime.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: It's hard for me now that it's over to voluntarily let it go.

ISTOOK: Reporting from Hollywood, I'm Mike Istook, and -- UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: This is CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: Coming up next, how technology is playing a big role in today's breaking news that's coming out of Kenya.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: When Jack Dorsey came up with the idea of Twitter in 2006, he saw it as unique social networking service. But it has become a new source of connecting people and events all over the world almost as quickly as they happen. And it's being used again in today's deadly mall attack in Kenya.

Why Twitter? Good question. We asked, Laurie Segall, the technology correspondent for "CNN Money," to look into it. She joins us live from New York.

I'm wondering, Laurie, could the inventor have envisioned this kind of future for Twitter?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: It's interesting, I sat down with Jack three years ago and he was explaining this idea of real-time and being able to real-time broadcast information. And you see, and like the attack like in Kenya, this is a real thing. This played out on Twitter. The militants were claiming to be behind the attack, they took credit for it on Twitter. You are looking right now -- and also, I should mention, the account is now suspended. But up until 20 minutes ago, they were tweeting why they did this kind of thing. Then you look at the other side. The police go to Twitter, Martin. And the police are saying one gunman injured with several others pinned down. They are really giving different kinds of updates and everybody is going to Twitter. It all has a hash tag so you can follow along. So you really see during events like this the power of real-time -- Martin?

SAVIDGE: Yeah, you do. And I'm wondering -- kind of walk us through the time line of the news events that made this very clear to all of us.

SEGALL: You know, there was one tweet, it happened in 2009. The plane went down on the Hudson. Everyone wanted to see what happened. The first image that came out was something tweeted by a user. He tweeted, "There's a plane down on the Hudson." There was a picture of it. No one could find any other information except going to Twitter. That was just this moment where all of us said, even as journalist said this is going to be huge. And you can see, today, the implications are unbelievable -- Martin?

SAVIDGE: I remember the tweet that came out of Pakistan when the raid on Osama bin Laden was carried out. Someone said, hey, I hear a helicopter, I see something. Suddenly, everyone was glued on what was going on.

Thank you, Laurie, very much. SEGALL: You're welcome.

SAVIDGE: Appreciate it.

With all the difficult news today, we are going to look at an inspiring story. A former drug addict, a convict and an absent father who is now helping out other fathers. That story is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I sold drugs on and off throughout my life. The tattoos, when I first got them, was war paint. I didn't think about my son. I did not think about my family. They did not exist.

JOE JONES, CNN HERO: I have not met one man who didn't want to be a good dad. They just don't know how.

What male has helped to shape who you are?

We have young men who didn't have fathers in their own lives and the cycle of father absence repeated. We want them to change that for their children.

I'm Joe Jones. I work to help fathers and families become responsible for themselves, their children, and their communities.

I was 9 years old when my dad left the House. I began using dressing when I was 13. I spent time in jail consistently and I also had a son I wasn't responsible for.

There's no reason why you can't get out of the hole regardless of what the circumstances are, I'm telling you.

There aren't many spaces in our community where men can go that are safe --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On your marks, get your baby, and go.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: -- and constructive and healthy.

(SHOUTING)

JONES: We were coming on the street because you have to penetrate the community.

Be responsible in fatherhood. That's why we built this conference center.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can make mistakes, but you can cover those mistakes.

Joe has allowed me to find and restore my dignity. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We currently have six classes left for you to take. You're almost done.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's one of the greatest things that you can offer anyone.

(SHOUTING)

JONES: When you see someone and they've got that pride, that light in their eye is relit, their potential is unlimited. They're showing their little boys and girls what it means to be a man and what it means to be a dad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)