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Colorado Floods Affect State's Tourism Industry; 68 Killed, 175 Wounded In Kenyan Hostage Crisis; World Leaders Gather For U.N. General Assembly This Week; Al-Shabaab Expands Public Profile With Kenyan Mall Attack; New Film Exposes Income Gap; Mall Attack Raises Security Concerns; World Leaders To Meet At U.N.; Kenyan Massacre Raises Terror Worries; 30 Hostages Held After Mall Massacre; Clinton Weighs Run For President

Aired September 22, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. These stories are topping the news this hour in the NEWSROOM.

A tense situation still developing inside a shopping mall a day after a bloody massacre. Sixty-eight people have been killed, and investigators are still trying to rescue hostages. We'll have the very latest from Kenya.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Simon in Estes Park, Colorado, where the historic floods have put the local economy at risk, which is all about tourism. I'll have that story, coming up.

WHITFIELD: And it seems like Hillary Clinton is the only one not talking about a run for president, until now. What she revealed about her thoughts on 2016, coming up.

A dangerous situation, hostage situation, in fact, is still going on inside a shopping mall that was the scene of a horrific massacre for more than 30 hours ago. Kenya's government says about 30 people are being held hostage by 10 to 15 gunmen. Yesterday, those gunmen burst into the upscale mall in Nairobi and opened fire.

We just heard from the Red Cross that 68 people were killed, and we know that 175 more were hurt. Terrorist group al-Shabaab has taken responsibility, and today, Kenya's president vowed to punish them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UHURU KENYATTA, PRESIDENT OF KENYA: They shall not get away with their despicable and beastly acts. Like the cowardly perpetrators now cornered in the building. We will punish the masterminds swiftly and indeed very painfully.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: President Kenyatta visited victims at the hospital today. His nephew and his nephew's fiancee were among the dead.

The U.S. has offered its support. Today, President Obama called President Kenyata and offered condolences. A U.S. official says the Pentagon has also reached out. But so far, there have been no requests for assistance.

Zain Verjee is live for us now at the scene in Nairobi. So, Zain, what can you tell us about the ongoing hostage situation?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're getting not a whole lot of information because it's an ongoing hostage situation, and they don't want to compromise any details of the operation. Fred, what we heard a few hours ago were a little bit of shooting and one big explosion. And since then, there's been pretty much silence. We've heard a few ambulances going back and forth.

Now, where I'm located here at the Oshwald (ph) Center, it's just about a five or 10-minute walk away from the Westgate mall. And this is basically a Red Cross headquarters. You know, there's a triage center here, and people have been ferrying water and food. And there's a real sense of urgency here that something might be happening. Some casualties might be coming. And everyone just jumps as soon as they get a radio signal in from Westgate.

There's no way that anyone can get to the mall unless they're not Red Cross or approved by the military. No press is allowed, no civilians are allowed. There are snipers reportedly also, positioned at particular areas of the Westgate mall. One policeman was killed by a sniper, according to a few reports.

So, everyone staying away. The operation is happening, but no details right now.

WHITFIELD: And Zain, what's the explanation behind the number of dead going up? Is it because, now, authorities are able to get in and retrieve some of the bodies, identify some of the bodies, or is it that many people have died while being treated at hospitals? VERJEE: It could be a combination of both. We're in the process of getting in touch with the Red Cross, but there have been many people that were wounded and were in critical condition. So that could be one reason.

The second could be related to the explosions and the shooting that we heard, because about 10 minutes after that, there was a bunch of ambulances, and what people around here were saying is when they don't come in through these gates to go to emergency or to the makeshift triage here, that there may be fatalities. So, it could be a combination of both.

And also, if the operation side are inside Westgate Mall, they may be coming across quarters and, you know, reporting back. So, that's what I would suspect as a combination of those factors.

WHITFIELD: All right, Zain Verjee, thanks so much. Keep us posted on this situation and the developments there in Nairobi.

U.S. secretary of state John Kerry responded to that attack, calling it an unspeakable evil. In a statement, Secretary Kerry said, quote, "Attacks like this can't change who we are, a people committed to peace and justice for all, but rather must reaffirm our determination to counter extremism and promote tolerance everywhere," end quote. He said, yesterday there were reports of Americans being hurt, but none killed. He did say the wife of a Foreign Service National working for a U.S. agency was among the dead.

Back here in the U.S., President Obama will honor the victims of last week's Navy Yard massacre at a memorial this afternoon. The service will be held at a U.S. Marine barracks in Washington. On Monday, 12 people were killed when former Navy reservist Aaron Alexis opened fire inside a building at the naval facility in D.C.

Could we be heading towards a government shutdown? Well, if there's no budget compromise by October 1st, the answer is yes. And the battle lines are being drawn in the sand over the president's health care law. Top Democrats and Republicans all took to the Sunday talk shows today to make their case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: How far are you willing to push?

If the Senate does not go along in eight days, are you still going to insist, no funding for the government unless Obamacare is defunded?

REP. TOM GRAVES (R), GEORGIA: We are united around a simple goal, and that is keeping the government open while protecting our constituents from the harmful effects of Obamacare. So we're going to do everything we can to protect our constituents and we have eight days to do that. And my hope is that the Senate is going to act in a very positive way.

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: I don't think in America we should throw tantrums when we lose elections and threaten to shut down the government and refuse to pay the bills. The American people had a choice last November. They had a choice between someone who said repeal Obamacare and President Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD (voice-over): House Republicans passed a stopgap budget plan on Friday, but it takes all the money from the president's health care law. That plan is expected to be rejected by the U.S. Senate, the one that was voted on, that is, on Friday.

It has been more than 17 years since the last government shutdown. The 28-day budget stalemate cost more than $1 billion .

A huge week at the United Nations. World leaders gather for the General Assembly, and the U.N. Security Council will debate a U.S./Russian deal that forces Syria to hand over its stockpile of chemical weapons. But there is a hang up. And it centers on the threat of force if Syria does not follow through with the deal.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is keeping an eye on the latest developments, live for us in New York. So, a lot on the line, a lot expected this week.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly, although one unexpected thing we did see, Fredricka, on Saturday, was Syria come forward and give to something called the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, who run the chemical weapons convention for the U.N., which Syria has agreed to join. They came forward and gave a declaration of what chemical weapons they had. Now, the U.S. said they were, quote, "pleasantly surprised" by what was in it.

And, bizarrely, it also adhered to the really fast timetable that America put forward for Syria to declare what it had. They said back last Saturday in Geneva, they want it done within a week. Well, that expired yesterday, and Syria, having not said publicly it would do so, still went along with it.

So, they seem to be moving towards that, but the deadlock, really, as you say, Fredericka, is at the United Nations. The concern about what words will be in any resolution that back up Syria's desire to get rid of its chemical weapons. They want a resolution there to give it some sort of international force. But as you point out, the Russians don't want any suggestion in that resolution that force could be on the table if they don't move fast enough, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And what is this, now, Nick, that the Russians talking about the U.S. blackmailing it?

WALSH: These are comments from the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, talking to its own state media, but saying basically if the Americans don't get what they want inside that resolution, which would be under a part of the U.N. charter called Chapter 7, which suggests potentially the use of force if things aren't obeyed that are in resolutions under it, that basically -- Sergey Lavrov is saying, the Americans are threatening to derail the work of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. Syria disarming itself of chemical weapons.

There's no indication from the American side that that's the case, but certainly, this is about the ongoing stalemate here. This is the Russians saying, look, we've brought Syria to the table here. They've given up unilaterally, they say, their chemical weapons. That hasn't actually physically started yet as a process. But the Russians say American, Britain, France, still want there to be somewhere in the wording of all of this a suggestion that force could be on the table if they don't move fast enough.

So, a real stalemate, potentially, and it's now going to have to play out during all the showmanship of the United Nations General Assembly, which starts tomorrow, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. A lot on tap. Thanks so much, Nick Paton Walsh in New York.

China's coast is bracing for a huge storm today. Forty-four thousand fishing boats have been called back to port, and at least 50,000 relief workers are standing by as Typhoon Usagi gets ready to make landfall. There was a bit of good news when the storm was downgraded from a super typhoon status, and that would have been the equivalent of a Category 5 hurricane. Usagi is still expected to pack hundred mile-an-hour winds and could cause flooding and landslides along coastal areas.

All right. Back stateside now. In Colorado, the rain has stopped, but many roads and bridges have still been washed out. Homes and businesses destroyed, and whole towns have been cut off. In some places, even the drinking water has been tainted with E. coli.

And for a state that relies on tourism as one of its biggest industries, well, that could spell disaster. CNN's Dan Simon is in Estes Park, Colorado. So what's the latest there, Dan?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Fredricka. This is my first time to this place, and it's one of the most beautiful towns I have ever seen. It's no wonder that this is a very popular tourist area.

But here's the problem. Two of the major roadways to get here are destroyed. And that's going to make any kind of recovery very difficult.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JULIE PIEPER, RESTAURANT OWNER: We've lost a lot of drywall.

SIMON (voice-over): Julie Pieper and her staff are working furiously to get her restaurant reopened.

PIEPER: It hurts. And this is a good time of year.

SIMON (voice-over): But getting the repairs done is only part of the challenge for her and other small businesses in the town of Estes Park, Colorado. The worry, according to the town administrator, is how long it will take for customers to return.

SIMON: You have an event like this, what does it do to the town?

FRANK LANCASTER, ESTES PARK ADMINISTRATOR: Well, we've never had an event like this. This is the biggest event Northern Colorado has ever had.

SIMON (voice-over): The town sits at the foot of Rocky Mountain National Park. Elk graze out in the open. It is a tourist mecca. The sidewalks normally bustling on a weekend are virtually empty.

CHARLEY DICKEY, OWNER, RUSTIC MOUNTAIN CHARM: Unfortunately, this is a real shot in the solar plexus and it takes the air right out of you.

SIMON (voice-over): And it may be a while until merchants like this are busy again.

To understand why, you need to take a drive.

SIMON: This right here is the biggest problem; roads like this one have completely caved in. Just look at the chunks of concrete in there.

This is a major artery, and it's preventing folks from getting into the town and spending money and it could be like this for many months.

SIMON (voice-over): There's no timetable yet for the major highway repairs. An alternative route exists, but it's not as convenient, and it's not yet known how many people will use it.

LANCASTER: Some of those marginal businesses, this might be enough to push them over the edge.

SIMON (voice-over): Despite the hardship, Julie says there is no place she'd rather live.

PIEPER: A lot of people can say they live someplace beautiful. And a lot of people can say they live in a wonderful community. And the people in Estes Park know that they have both.

SIMON (voice-over): A community will come back, the question though is when.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: More than 40 percent of the jobs are directly related to tourism, so Fred, as you can imagine, there is deep concern about the immediate future. Back to you.

WHITFIELD: Indeed. Thanks so much, Dan Simon.

A terror group tries to raise its international profile, and the deadly mall attack in Kenya is the result. Up next, the increasingly dangerous threat from al-Shabaab.

And later, the gap between rich and poor is only getting bigger. I'm talking to a man who wants to change all of that: former labor secretary, Robert Reich.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Overseas, hostages are still being held inside a shopping mall a day after armed militants stormed in, killing almost 70 people. Terror group al-Shabaab has taken responsibility for the attack in Kenya. Al-Shabaab is based in Somalia, right next door. And as Jim Sciutto reports, this could be an alarming new step.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, we could look at this as the disturbing debut on the international stage of a new international terror threat. Al-Shabaab has been around for a number of years in Somalia, has carried out some smaller attacks outside of Somalia's borders, but nothing on this scale. And in fact, African Union forces, including Kenyan forces, had in recent years had success pushing al-Shabaab out of many of its strongholds in Somalia. This would seem to indicate the possibility of a comeback, but also a greater intent on having an international impact. Al-Shabaab is, in effect, an affiliate of al Qaeda with a similar brutality and a similar focus on spectacular attacks like this one. There had been a recent split in the leadership about whether to focus its attacks inside Somalia, against the government there, or abroad. And this would seem to indicate the ascendancy of the latter of particular interests for Americans. Al-Shabaab has had success recruiting Somali-Americans into their membership, by some accounts, as many as 50, some of whom have gone on to carry out attacks including suicide bombings. And while it may not have the capability of carrying out attacks on American soil, it could very well strike U.S. interests abroad. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: Jim Sciutto, thanks so much.

So just how vulnerable is the U.S. to a terror attack? Joining me now from Washington to discuss, CNN law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes. Tom good to see you, as always.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: So as you heard, Jim is saying this attack is rather sophisticated and might be the international debut of al-Shabaab. We even know that al-Shabaab has been known to recruit Americans. How concerning is this combination to you?

FUENTES: That's very concerning. Al-Shabaab has conducted a lot of recruiting in some of the major U.S. cities as well as in Canada. And a number of young men traveled to Somalia to get training in how to use explosives and weapons, and, in fact, have conducted suicide attacks, killing dozens in the past. So it's not the first time. The fear is that they would get this training and then return to the U.S. and conduct attacks here.

Also, they've conducted a major attack a couple of years ago in the capital of Uganda during World Cup soccer. There were large venues outdoors where people were watching the World Cup games on large screens and they conducted three bombings. They killed Americans in those attacks, and the FBI dispatched dozens of agents to the region: to Uganda, to Kenya, and to neighboring countries. And eventually determined that that was an al-Shabaab external operation. In other words, an operation outside of the borders of Somalia.

WHITFIELD: And of course, soft targets are always the easiest targets. But is there something about this attack that is most alarming to you as it pertains to al-Shabaab also claiming responsibility?

FUENTES: I think that the size of the attack, number one, and the fact that, you know, we give these attacks based on the number of casualties greater sophistication than they are, or we assume a greater degree of training. If you have a group of individuals and they have hand grenades, automatic weapons or other explosives, it only takes a few people, and they don't have to be that bright or that well trained to do massive damage.

Look at the attack in Mumbai, India, in November of 2008. You had a dozen young kids with just a couple of months of training on how to shoot guns and throw hand grenades, and they held the whole city of Mumbai, 20 million people, hostage for about three days. So we give them too much credit for sophistication. The arms are plentiful in that region. Obviously, in Somalia, it's been a failed state for decades.

So, they have arms, they have explosives, they have the inclination. They are trying to achieve the same objective as al Qaeda, which means attack Westerners. And particularly attacks in Kenya, because they see Kenya as too cooperative with the West, too cooperative with the U.S.

WHITFIELD: National security communities are always concerned about the vulnerabilities here in the U.S. But now, given what has taken place in Kenya, does it heighten concerns about U.S. security, about potential soft targets in the U.S.?

FUENTES: It does. It causes the authorities here to realize that it's going to have to believe intelligence-driven prevention to be able to identify a group of individuals before they carry out the attack. Because if you get a group, you know, one or more people here with the inclination to go into a soft target, which would be a shopping mall, which would be a grocery store, any place where large people gather without additional security measures to prevent them from accessing. This includes subways, commuters all over the country in major rail and bus networks. There is no big degree of security for anybody getting into those locations.

So one or more people with automatic weapons or explosives could wreak havoc. And there would be -- it would be too late, at that point, to deal with it. You'd have to just do the best you could to respond and prevent it.

WHITFIELD: Tom Fuentes, thanks so much.

FUENTES: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, the nation's economy. You may think it's not your problem, but one guy who knows a little something about the economy says the growing income gap between the rich and poor does affect everybody. Former labor secretary, Robert Reich, joins me to talk about his new movie, "Inequality For All."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAT CASH, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Fame, fortune, and millions in prize money. Who did the best players in the world have to thank for making tennis what it is today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ladies and gentlemen, Billie Jean king.

BILLIE JEAN KING, PRO TENNIS PLAYER: We really stood together to form the WTA back in '73, and I think everyone's really proud of themselves now.

CASH (voice-over): Billie Jean King took center stage when the WTA reunited its past number ones in London. SERENA WILLIAMS, WORLD NUMBER 1: Billie Jean has been one of my ultimate inspirations. She has told me so many things.

MONICA SELES, FORMER WORLD NUMBER 1: She's always so inspirational to see and just being around Billie, you feel better after talking to her.

KING: Really, the players today are living our dream.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY (voice-over): They focused on a limited number of assets: housing, gold, speculative instruments, dead instruments. And that creates a speculative bubble in both times.

We also know that the middle class in both periods, their incomes were stagnating and they went deeper and deeper into debt to maintain their living standards. And that creates a debt bubble. That's what we've seen in both these periods, economic instability. What makes an economy stable is a strong middle class.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The new film, "Inequality For All," talks about America's growing income gap. And for many on low end of the pay scale who depend on government help, they may find it a pretty rough next couple of weeks, if the government shuts down. House Republicans pushed through a bill that keeps the government open if Congress defunds President Obama's health care law. Still, the Senate needs to make amendments and vote.

So this film, "Inequality For All," gets to the heart of why Americans are struggling to make ends meet. And the film's brainchild is former labor secretary, Professor Robert Reich. Good to see you. Joining us from Washington. Welcome.

ROBERT REICH, FORMER U.S. LABOR SECRETARY: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, so this is -- we're going to talk about your film, but this is the 42nd vote on defunding the Affordable Health Care act law, which is potentially costing Americans the most in your view. Which is it: defunding this law or is it the government shutdown? What costs everybody the most?

REICH: Well, both are going to be very costly, Fredricka. The shutdown itself could be extraordinarily costly because you'll have hundreds of thousands of government workers who will be furloughed; they won't be paid. You have military personnel; they will get IOUs. I mean, they're going to show up to work, they have to show up for work, but they're not going to be paid. When all that money is drained out of the economy, you could have job losses of hundreds of thousands of people because there's just not enough money circulating. WHITFIELD: And this at a time when there has been so much hopeful discussion, so many hopeful discussions about the economy on the upswing. How much would that kind of change the pendulum?

REICH: This could not come at a worst time. And remember, two weeks after this possible shutdown -- in fact, it looks like a very likely shutdown, there is another critical point, and that is the raising of the debt ceiling. We've been through this before, but if other Republicans say that they will not raise the debt ceiling, that there is a risk of a default. Then bond markets, global credit markets, become very, very nervous for understandable reasons, because we, the United States, can't pay our bills. That also is going to wreak havoc, potentially, on the economy and also on a lot of jobs.

Let's hope it doesn't happen, but unfortunately, I'm sitting here in Washington, I've been talking with many players in this drama, all day today. And everybody, Democrats and Republicans I speak to, they say that unfortunately, it is going to happen. Nobody is willing to budge.

WHITFIELD: Really? That must be very disconcerting to hear that. You know, that there is no budging. And that something that -- I guess just looking at your history and how many administrations you've worked with and for, that there always seems to be some wiggle room on both sides. But these days, and you wrote about it in an op-ed today, it just seems like the divide, the discontent is so much greater in recent years and days. Why?

REICH: It's terribly disconcerting, Fredricka. And you know, we are at a time in American history where we definitely need people to work together. We need both sides to come together. And we have people essentially not talking to each other.

I have not seen Washington this bad in 30 years. I came here for the first time in 1967 as an intern for Senator Robert Kennedy. And I've been in a Republican administration, I've been in two Democratic administrations. I lived through that last shutdown in 1995, 1996. I personally, at the Labor Department, where I was Labor secretary, I had to sign off on sending 16,000 people home without knowing when their jobs were going to come back.

A shutdown is terrible. A default on the nation's debt would be even worse. There is no excuse for this.

WHITFIELD: OK. And you know, you talk about sides talking. And let's talk about a week of diplomacy, possibly, at the U.N. There have been some discussions that the president might -- the president of the United States -- might talk with the president of Iran. And this is something that the president -- President Obama, said long ago, that there's nothing wrong with diplomacy. There's nothing wrong, you know, talking to Iran.

In your view, with Iran kind of extending an olive branch as we lead into this General Assembly week with the U.N., do you think it is genuine? Or do you think that the U.S. needs to be a little reluctant? REICH: Well, I think we've got to be very careful. I don't think we should be reluctant. What we have done, in economic terms, is really a huge success. By using economic sanctions against Iran, getting Iran to finally show some moderation -- I mean, you have Iran, for the first time, admitting, essentially, that the economic sanctions have worked. There is a 30 percent rate of inflation there, 20 percent unemployment rate, and it is because they can't sell oil because we have an iron lock on their banks.

And it's not just the United States. A whole number of nations have joined us in economic sanctions on Iran, and they have worked, they are working. And we don't want to give them up. We want to keep the pressure on Iran, and we do, I think for the first time in a long time, at least see the possibility of some sort of an agreement. Let's not get our hopes too high and expectations too high, but I think that there is a glimmer of hope here.

WHITFIELD: All right, Professor, there's always so much to talk to you about. But we really want to talk to you about your new film, "Inequality For All," and you really kind of -- are, you know, revealing to, I guess, some folks who are in denial that there is a gap and it is widening between the haves and the have-nots, the rich and the poor.

And you tackle this topic, why? Is it because you feel like there are a lot of folks who just can't believe that the gap is widening? That, you know, there are inequalities still at hand economically in a very big way?

REICH: Everybody knows that there is a gap and everybody knows that the rich have got richer and the poor poorer, but most people don't know the extent of the gap. They don't know what it's doing to the economy. One reason that this economy, this recovery, has been so anemic is because so many Americans, the vast middle class doesn't have the purchasing power to essentially turn around and buy what the economy is capable of producing.

The more inequality we have, the more that all of the economic gains go to the very top. We're going to see our economy suffer as a result and we call this film inequality for all because everybody suffers from this degree of inequality. The rich would do much better with a smaller share of a rapidly growing than they're doing right now with a very large share of one that's barely growing at all.

WHITFIELD: Are you seeing any hope on the horizon?

REICH: Well, I'm very optimistic. I'm always hopeful. And I'm hopeful because I know that American history has come to these kinds of points many times before. We always save capitalism from its own excesses. We always make reforms that widen the circle of prosperity, but before we get them, we've got to understand the nature of the problem. And Fredricka, that's why we made the film.

WHITFIELD: Professor Robert Reich, thanks so much. And the film, "Inequality For All," will release nationwide, September 27th. Thanks so much for being with us from Washington today. REICH: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, a good friend of Mr. Reich, Hillary Clinton. We've got details from a new interview that she gave to a New York magazine, the "New York" magazine. Hear what members of her inner circle say about a possible presidential run.

MARGARET CONLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Margaret Conley in New York. The mall massacre may have happened all the way in Kenya, but it's causing people to question security right here on U.S. soil. That's just ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: We have learned in the last hour the death toll in that bloody mall massacre in Kenya is up. It's 68 people now dead. That's from Kenya's Red Cross, which says that nine more bodies were recently recovered from the mall and the situation is still ongoing in Nairobi. Officials say about 30 people are still being held hostage right now by armed militants.

The leader of the terrorist group claiming responsibility for the killings has previously threatened a direct attack the United States. Margaret Conley in New York is bringing more information on this. Margaret, malls in particular are considered soft targets. So how secure are they in the U.S.?

CONLEY: Fred, we've seen these violent acts on civilians in crowded, public places overseas. The Madrid train bombing in 2004, the London public transport bombings in 2005. In Kenya, Americans were involved. They were in that mall, and some of them were wounded, and that raises questions about security here in the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONLEY (voice-over): It may be more than 7,000 miles from Nairobi, Kenya to the United States, but the mall massacre halfway around the world couldn't bring the tragedy any closer to home. Washington, D.C., resident, Sara Head was inside the mall when shots were fired. She kept hidden in a stairwell with dozens of others as the chaos unfolded.

SARA HEAD, WITNESS: So we just waited in the stairwell for an hour and a half. There were two individuals with me who had superficial gunshot wounds. Well, individuals in the stairwell with me, they were not with me, but there was about, probably, I don't know, 60 of us. There were a few floors worth of people.

CONLEY: The attack on these so-called soft targets s raises the question about mall security on U.S. soil. Could what happened overseas happen here?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Soft targets are always attractive to terrorists because they're usually not defended. It's a very effective way of causing a lot of panic and damage very quickly in achieving objective of terrorizing people. CONLEY: Back in this country, one mall that puts its security front and center is Minnesota's Mall of America. One of the largest enclosed shopping centers in the country, visited by 42 million people a year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that if you're looking for 100 percent safety, you should wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never leave home.

CONLEY: It even has something that many government facilities do not.

ANNOUNCER: This is a drill. Mall of America is now going into lockdown.

CONLEY: Twice a month without actually, its tenants and its customers participate in a lockdown drill, practicing how to shelter in back rooms of stores to try to prevent casualties in an attack.

DOUG REYNOLDS, MALL OF AMERICA: If something bad should happen here, we don't want our response to start, and law enforcement will be here, and they will protect you. We want to know what can be done until law enforcement gets here.

CONLEY: Even a heightened security and awareness of your surroundings may end up being your best offense.

TOM FUENTES, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: For the average American citizen, you go to the grocery store, go to the gas station, go to the shopping mall, go to a movie theatre, you take walks in your neighborhood, any one of those situations could make you vulnerable if other people or another person is out there determined to conduct an attack.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CONLEY: Tom Fuentes went on to say that you could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Margaret Conley, thanks so much. Appreciate that.

Syria hands over its list of chemical weapons. Now it's up to the U.N. Security Council to come up with a resolution to end the standoff. The latest on Syria, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: With a potential diplomatic solution at hand in Syria, new signs that Iran may be willing to halt its nuclear program. The U.S. has high hopes as President Obama goes to the U.N. this week. The annual general assembly of world leaders starts tomorrow, Monday.

Professor Fawaz Gerges teaches international relations of the Middle East at the London School of Economics and also author of the book "Obama and the Middle East." Good to see you, Professor, from Ottawa, Canada, today. So as the U.N. and the Security Council get underway, how much hope do you have in diplomacy working to help rid Syria of chemical weapons?

PROFESSOR FAWAZ GERGES, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS OF THE MIDDLE EAST, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, this is really a very unique moment. I think there is a new opportunity. I think the Iranian president, Rouhani, seems to be very genuine. He has been consistent about constructive engagement with the international community and the United States.

As you know, even during his presidential campaign, he made basically a constructive engagement with the United States in his platform. He wants, basically, to lift the sanctions that have bled Iranian economy dry. He wants to change the rhetorical nature of his predecessor's foreign policy. So he is very genuine and I do hope that president Barack Obama engages Rouhani and takes what he says very seriously.

WHITFIELD: That's very interesting, because it was President Obama who said very early on that he thought it would be very fruitful and useful for the U.S. to sit down with the leaders of Iran, face to face. This might happen, indeed, this week, and it appears as though Iran, that kind of meeting could really help broker some kind of arrangement with Syria as well as improve relations between the U.S. and Iran. It's kind of twofold, potentially, in your view?

GERGES: It really is. I mean, Iran is a pivotal player. Not just in the gulf, but also in the larger Middle East. You cannot dance around Iran when it comes to Syria. Iran is one of the most important players inside Syria. It supports the Assad regime. Assad is an important element in Iranian foreign policy. Iran, as President Rouhani has made it very clear, is willing to broker a settlement in the Syrian crisis.

It's willing to engage the United States about Syria. It has tremendous potential inside Syria itself. So the potential between the United States and Iran does not just affect Iranian/American relations, it affects American national security and the larger Middle East in the Arab/Israeli conflict and inside Syria as well. So the reality is, engaging the Iranian leadership serves American national security interests in the gulf and the broad Middle East as well.

WHITFIELD: And can I shift the gears with you, as we look at a continuing, very tense situation in Kenya, the terrorist group, which is an off-shoot of al Qaeda, al Shabaab claiming responsibility for the massacre at that shopping mall. In your view, does it appear this was the attack to put them on a more international stage? Is there a new sense of sophistication to be associated with al Shabaab or its intent, its boldness, to strike what appears to be a very western installation there in Nairobi?

GERGES: Well, mean, I think you listed all the major points and goals of the operation. It's a very potent operation. It sends a powerful message to the international community. It's a spectacular operation. Al Shabaab still has life in it. It shifts the battle to its enemies' home fronts. This particular action would most likely bring in more recruits worldwide.

The operation really shows that al Shabaab still has the ability to take war and battle outside of Somalia itself. But we should not really exaggerate al Shabaab's basic ability to carry out attacks. This is not the first attack, as you know. In 2010, during the Olympic Games, this is a soft target.

WHITFIELD: This might be one of the more impactful ones?

GERGES: Absolutely. This is really more on the symbolic and psychological and political level, basically al Shabaab is saying, we exist, we can carry out deadly operation. But the fact is, anyone, any particular faction, any criminal gang can attack, as you know, a major shopping center and inflict terrible, terrible casualties. What we need to understand is that al Shabaab is one of the most repressive and extremist factions of al Qaeda. And what it has done in the last 48 hours really shows its extremism and irrationality.

WHITFIELD: All right, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much, Professor Fawaz Gerges. Always good to see you from Ottawa, Canada today.

GERGES: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Armed militants still holding people hostage inside that upscale mall in Kenya. And our reporters are hearing sporadic gunshots and even an explosion. Families are desperate to get any good news about their loved ones. The latest from Kenya, next.

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WHITFIELD: Right now, it's believed that 30 people are trapped inside a shopping mall, held hostage by a group of armed militants that have already killed 68 people. The hostages have been stuck in there for a harrowing 34 hours now in Kenya. Yesterday around noon, gunmen burst into the busy shopping mall, aiming and firing as people rushed for the exits. One hundred seventy five people were hurt in Nairobi, and we're still waiting to see how that hostage situation will end. We'll, of course, bring you up to date as soon as we get the information.

Back in this country, Hillary Clinton answers the question that everyone has been asking. Is she thinking about running for president in 2016? We've got some answers for you, straight ahead.

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WHITFIELD: We're a little over 1,100 days until the U.S. chooses its next president of the United States, can you believe it, 2016? But Hillary Clinton may already be thinking about running for the job again. In her first interview since stepping down as U.S. secretary of state, Mrs. Clinton reveals that she is, quote, "both pragmatic and realistic about it." Here's CNN's Erin McPike.

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ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Denials no more. Hillary Clinton admits it. She's thinking about running for president in 2016. JOE HAGAN, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: She's come out for the first time here and said, you know, I'm thinking about it. So, she's weighing it.

MCPIKE: She said as much to Joe Hagan in a wide-ranging interview featured in next week's "New York" magazine. Here says in her own words about whether she wrestles with the idea of jumping into the ring again. "I do, but I'm both pragmatic and realistic. I will just continue to weigh what the factors are that would influence me making a decision one way or the other." It's a far cry from what she's said every time she's been asked the last three years, including in January by CNN.

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I have absolutely no plans to run.

MCPIKE: Her inner circle is making different plans.

HAGAN: The most fascinating part of the experience for me was talking to many of her former staffers from the State Department and some of her closer friends, and they are much more open about, here's why she's qualified. Here's what happened at the State Department that gives her the experience. Here's how she learned from the mistakes of 2008.

MCPIKE: Because of that role, she's more popular than ever.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: It was the first time the country had ever gotten to see her as somebody, what you see is what you get, shows up for work every day and gets stuff done and is very strong about it.

MCPIKE: And she's getting some encouragement to run from another glass ceiling cracker, the first female speaker of the House.

REPRESENTATIVE NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: I know that if she does, she will win.

MCPIKE: But if you're champing at the bit for the campaign season to begin, hold your horses. Her warning, "I'm not in any hurry. I think it's a serious decision, not to be made lightly, but it's also not one that has to be made soon."

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WHITFIELD: And Erin joins us now live from Washington. So Erin, Hillary Clinton has been down this road before. You know, she knows that, everybody knows that. But what is it about this interview that reveals a little bit more about her?

MCPIKE: Well, Fred, part of it is the timing, about when this is coming out. Because just this week, there will be an annual meeting of the Clinton Global Initiative in New York City, and we will see there lots of potential donors for a potential presidential bid. Many of them are donors to the Clinton Foundation, and we can be sure that they will all be buzzing about this article and her comments there -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: OK, indeed. We look forward to that. Thanks so much, Erin McPike in Washington. We've got much more straight ahead, involving that standoff taking place in Kenya. We're just now learning the names of some of the people that al Shabaab says were behind that mall attack. Three of them are from the United States. Brand-new information here and we've got much more, straight ahead in the NEWSROOM after this.

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