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62 Killed in Mall Attack in Kenya; Seven Days until Possible Government Shutdown; Glitz, Glamour and Controversy at the Emmys

Aired September 23, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Kenyan forces they say they've regained control of the mall under siege for more than two days. All levels of Nairobi's Westgate Mall have been cleared but the search does continue for any hostages or terrorists, two more terrorists they tell us were killed today.

Still, black smoke continues to rise from the building after the hostage takers set fire to mattresses inside. So far 62 people have died in this attack. Close to 200 others were hurt including several Americans. But one woman from North Carolina was able to escape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENDITA MALAKIA, ESCAPED KENYA MALL SHOOTING: We stood up and we started to turn and then there was a second -- and we heard machine guns and then we started to run and there was a second explosion which knocked us on the ground.

You could hear while we were back there methodically going from store to store talking to people, asking questions, shooting, screams, and then it would stop for a while and then they would go to another store. It was completely luck because we were on the ground and easily accessible. So I think part of it was luck. We did a lot of praying in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Just a short time ago Congressmen Peter King of New York spoke to CNN. He told NEW DAY, Kenya is still a dangerous place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Too often we think because bin Laden is dead that somehow the threat from Islamic terrorism is gone. It's not. In many ways it's more dangerous than ever because it's morphing and metastasizing in many countries under many different names whether it's Iraq, whether is Mali, whether it's Libya, whether it's Yemen, whether it's Somalia, whether it's Nigeria -- all of these countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: Let's talk about that. I'm joined now by our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson. Good morning, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: I don't know if you're able to hear what Congressman King said but he said we're all in an extreme danger even within the United States from these terrorist groups. How do you characterize it?

ROBERTSON: I remember talking to Mr. King just about a year and a half ago about exactly this topic. He made that point, he talked about the Somali community in the United States being relatively -- being a community there for the al-Shabaab type recruits could more easily recruit people from because of the nature of the community, not sort of integrated. This was -- this was his analysis back then and this does seem to have played in al-Shabaab's favor.

They have recruited more than 100 people who were living in Britain, more than 40 in the United States, it's believed. So what we are seeing from al-Shabaab at the moment is them take a more radical turn. And that has happened under their current leadership. Some of these recruits that have come in from outside, some of them have actually been killed for challenging the leadership. That's a warning for future recruits for sure but right now that organization, al-Shabaab, is on a much more radical turn. And that's why we're seeing an attack like this in Kenya that they haven't mounted before -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Well -- al-Shabaab is recruiting here in the United States but they are taking their recruits overseas to carry out their terrorist attacks. I'm sure that in many Americans mind is the concern that al-Shabaab will recruit terrorist who will work within the United States. How much of a danger is that?

ROBERTSON: That is a danger. I mean here in Britain, the head of MI- 5, I guess the equivalent to the FBI said three years ago here that the people fighting alongside al-Shabaab now could be committing acts of terror on the streets in Britain, by implication the United States as well in the future years. So it's a very real concern.

At the same time, because so many people have gone and because intelligence agencies have had time to scrutinize who they are, there is a certain level of -- comfort is the wrong word -- but there's a certain level of -- of hope, at least, that they would know, intelligence authorities would know these people, who they are, and would be able to pick them up if they tried to come back to the United States or the United Kingdom.

Again, that really relies on them coming back in on without fake passports. It relies on them coming back in through airports or ports where they can be readily picked up. But it is a major concern that they would go to Somalia, get training, get this al Qaeda ideology, be directed to target places in the United States.

So it's -- so it is an active concern. And there's a hope that it's under control to a degree, Carol. COSTELLO: Ok our national security expert Bob Baer joins us now. You stay right there Nic, but Bob I wanted to ask you about this. We talked a short ago to Brian Todd. He's in Minneapolis where al- Shabaab is apparently recruiting these young men to go to Somalia, to undergo this terrorist training.

But Brian Todd said that al-Shabaab is kind of telling these young men that their lives will be better, that they won't partake in these terrible -- these terrible murderous sprees. What are you hearing about the ways al-Shabaab was able to recruit these young men in the United States who were born here?

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE (via telephone): Well, they convince them to go back to Somalia to help. It may start off as completely benign but once they get in the milieu of Somalia and they pick up a gun, they take on this jihadist mentality which tells them take -- take the war where you can, whether it's in Nairobi or Minneapolis.

I mean this is a very real fear. Almost every office -- FBI office in the Midwest is focused on the Somalis community going back second generation, getting trained, and coming back to this country. It's a very real fear which cannot be ignored.

COSTELLO: Nic was telling us a short time ago that this was an unusual place to target for al-Shabaab, this shopping mall in Nairobi, Kenya -- upscale shopping mall, very nice. I'm sure that authorities here in the United States are also concerned -- are also concerned about these so-called soft targets.

BAER: Well, they are absolutely indefensible. I mean there's no amount of security you can put in the front door of a mall and ever protect it. It's a soft target, just as airplanes were before 9/11. And now we have a new soft target and you're going to see, I think, almost inevitably some sort of copycat attack, whether it's in Africa, Europe or the United States.

COSTELLO: Ok. So what you just said is really frightening, Bob.

BAER: I -- I'm very frightened. You know I've been talking about malls for ten years and nothing has happened. But I think -- I think this is -- that's the drift. They are going for any target that they can get to and planes are out, malls are in.

COSTELLO: Bob Baer, Nic Robertson, thanks so much, I think.

Checking other stories at 37 minutes past. Two Navy crew members remain missing after their Night Hawk helicopter crashed into the Red Sea. Three other crew members were rescued. Officials say the helicopter was operation with the destroyer "USS William T. Lawrence" when it crashed. The cause is still under investigation but the Navy says it was quote, "Not due to any sort of hostile activity."

Vice President Joe Biden in Colorado today where he will survey the aftermath of severe flooding that took seven lives and also destroyed homes and roads across the state. Some initial estimates have valued the cost of destruction at nearly $2 billion. Still to come in the NEWSROOM, time is running out for Congress. Lawmakers have exactly one week to pass a spending bill in order to avoid a government shutdown but will it be able to come up with some compromise as the debate continues to heat up over Obamacare.

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COSTELLO: On Capitol Hill, lawmakers have seven days to pass a spending bill that would keep the government open. On Friday, the House passed a short-term spending bill that would avert a shutdown but it would also eliminate all funding for Obamacare. That's expected to set off fireworks in the Senate where Democrats hold the majority.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: I call them legislative arsonists. The Republicans put legislation on the floor that was intended to shut down government. For them, that's a victory because they are anti-government ideologues who dominate the Republican Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But Republicans are pushing back promising a show down if Democrats refuse to cut Obamacare spending.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SE. TED CRUC (R), TEXAS: We can deny cloture, we can filibuster and say we will not allow you to add the funding back for Obamacare with just 51 votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So is defeating Obamacare really an option or is this just war of -- is this just a political war taking place on Capitol Hill -- yet another one.

CNN political contributors Will Cain and Ana Navarro join us -- actually Will, you're in New York and Ana you're in Cambridge, Massachusetts both of you are Republicans so we are very interested to hear what you have to say. So Will, you heard Senator Cruz. Filibuster, can he do that, according to the rules? Is it -- will he do that? Should he?

WILL CAIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: All very different questions. Yes, he can do that. Should he? First of all by the way, in rebuttal to Nancy Pelosi, this is not out of a Republican desire to shut down the government. This is out of a Republican desire to shut down Obamacare.

Now, can we accomplish that goal with this mechanism? And it's a strategy and it's a good strategy to the extent that a Hail Mary is a good strategy in a football game right? But sometimes you find yourself in a position where Hail Mary is the only option you have left. There is not a good likelihood that this -- that this will work. There's not a good likelihood it will get out of the Senate and there's even less of a likelihood that President Obama would sign any type of a continuing resolution that defunded Obamacare.

However, what do you have to lose? If you believe that Obamacare is a fundamental point in American history, not unlike Medicare and Social Security and has the ability to transform the American economy, the American health care system and the relationship between Americans and their government, then you throw the Hail Mary. And you'll see if --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Ok. So -- so Ana Navarro, do you throw the Hail Mary or do you figure out another way and not you know risk a government shutdown?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, listen, I feel very vulnerable when we start talking football metaphors because, frankly, I'm out of my bailiwick there.

But the answer is no. It is -- you know what, what you just put there, those two sound bites are frankly the two extremes in a political party. Nancy Pelosi on the one side calling Republicans arsonists -- she knows better. She knows the majority of Republicans do not want a government shutdown. And then on the other side you have Ted Cruz who you either love him because he's an anti- establishment hero or you can't stand him because you think he is a bloviating demagogue who goes out and built his own personal profile but you know and believes in slash and burn politics for other Republicans.

But those are the two extremes. There's actually a lot of adults in the room who want to work towards a solution. Seven days may sound like a very long time for most Americans.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Well -- well some might ask you -- some might ask you Ana, why -- why the grownups aren't winning at this point? Why the loudest voices are not in your words, the grownups?

NAVARRO: Because it takes 218 votes in the House and there was no way that Speaker Boehner could get there. So I think what he did was actually a brilliant stroke and a practical move, which was to put -- defund Obamacare on the floor, send it over to the Senate and say to the Senator Cruz gang in the Senate, ok, guys, you go and do it. It's in your court now. It's all yours. Take it and run with it and see if you can score your touchdown.

COSTELLO: Ok. So Will Cain on, you know, the Hail Mary thing that you were talking about.

CAIN: Right.

COSTELLO: According to a recent CNN/ORC poll, 51 percent of Americans would blame the GOP in congress if the government were to shut down.

CAIN: Right.

COSTELLO: If you look at that and to the possible damage that this might cause the Republican Party, is the Hail Mary pass really worth it?

CAIN: Ok. That's good. Now we're talking about the cost. What's the potential downside of heaving the ball downfield? We're just going to wear this Hail Mary analogy out until it's completely run into the ground.

But what's the cost? First the response to Ana. There's been entirely too much focus on Ted Cruz. He's not alone in this effort. He also has Senator Mike Lee from Utah, highly respected. I highly respect Senator Mike Lee who sees that this is a viable option. He also has, what is it, something like 60 percent of the American people now who are extremely frustrated.

COSTELLO: Yes but he has this viable option which is like a week before Obamacare like kicks into gear on October 1st. Where was this viable option months ago, years ago?

CAIN: Well, it is dependent upon -- it is dependent upon making President Obama see that the only way to continue to run the government is without Obama care. You can't hide that fact. That's what this is about.

Now, the cost that you're pointing out is the GOP may be punished in the next election. That the voters may say, you know what, that wasn't worth it, shutting down the government.

What I would offer to you is this. Everyone looks back to the 90s and says the GOP was punished for a government shutdown in the 90s. The only rebuttal I can give you is this is not the 1990s. The media landscape is not the same. It's not run by four networks and a few newspapers. There are viable outlets that everyone can hear and I don't know that the GOP would be punished in the same way.

COSTELLO: We'll see. CNN contributors Will Cain and Ana Navarro, thanks so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

CAIN: You bet.

NAVARRO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Got to get to some breaking news now. Kenyan authorities have arrested around four people, that's their words, around four people on suspicion of involvement in the mall attack in Nairobi. According to Kenya' Interior Ministry Those people are being questioned right now. They were arrested actually at the airport.

We'll try to figure out what this all means when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Checking our top stories at 50 minutes past the hour, another round of violence in Chicago where shootings this weekend left several more people dead just days after 13 were wounded in a separate incident among them, a three-month-old child. Officials are desperate for answers and Illinois Governor Pat Quinn says he's now opened to using the National Guard.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GOV. PAT QUINN, ILLINOIS: Our state police do work with communities in the East St. Louis area on patrolling and that's at the invitation of the local law enforcement authorities. You've got to have teamwork. So I'm always open for any mayor or anyone to talk to us about working in that area. But it has to be done in a coordinated fashion with the local law enforcement with their full cooperation.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSTELLO: By press (inaudible) later said the governor was referring to state police even though the governor did not dismiss deploying the National Guard.

Six years after it debuted, people still can't get enough of the iPhone. Apple reporting it sold a record nine million new iPhones this weekend and that's just the first three days of sales for the iPhone 5s and 5c. That was well above forecast and Apple shares are getting a big boost on the news.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Emmy snub? TV legend, Jack Klugman left out of the show's annual memorial. A move his son calls criminal.

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COSTELLO: Glitz, glamour, and controversy. The Emmy is television's biggest night becoming a candidate for best drama after leaving out TV legends like Jack Klugman from their annual memorial. You probably remember Klugman best as the messy sports writer Oscar Madison in TV's "The Odd Couple".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please keep it down will you. I'm trying to write something that will make a lot of money for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're writing your column for the paper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I'm ready to blast. That's going to lower the alimony.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: His fans and his son are blasting the academy for the snub. Entertainment correspondent, Nischelle Turner live in Los Angeles with more on this. Good morning. NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hey good morning, Carol. You know, I'm not trying to be Switzerland but I actually kind of see both sides of this one. It's a touchy situation because on one hand you don't want to disparage Cory Monteith for getting a special in memoriam segment. He was a popular actor whose death touched a lot of people. So he was honored with a special memorial at last night's Emmy awards along with James Gandolfini, Jean Stapleton, Jonathan Winters and producer Gary David Goldberg. But he had such a brief career that he was never even nominated for an Emmy.

So if you look at the accomplishments of someone like Jack Klugman, he starred in the classic show like you mentioned, "The Odd Couple" and also "Quincy, MD". He won three Emmys. He was nominated a total of ten times. So you can probably understand why his son feels like he deserved a special tribute. Now, his son told the Associated Press, quote, "I think it's criminal. My dad was at the inception of television and helped build it in the early days."

And that's really interesting because on the other side, Cory Monteith's mother spoke out to TMZ saying that her son deserved the treatment that he got last night.

Now Carol, I also have to tell you there were a lot of big stars who passed away this past year who could have earned a spot in that individual In Memoriam -- Larry Hagman, Roger Ebert, Annette Funicello, Charles Durning. So you do kind of wonder how the academy picked who they were going to single out for a special tribute. It does kind of give you pause.

COSTELLO: Well, the other thing -- I watched a little bit of the Emmys last night and, you know, they had I guess co-stars on stage talking about the dearly departed co-worker. I guess I wanted to hear from them. I wanted to hear their work. I liked it better the other way.

TURNER: Where they played a clip of one of their famous roles and then they did the -- yes. That was interesting. You know, they did also show some of the other departed actors in a memorial segment that wasn't singled out. So they did kind of do that. But I understand what you're saying because you do kind of get that special feeling of seeing them for the last time and then kind of having that in memoriam.

So there's a lot of controversy about this one. You're definitely right. It's a talking point today.

COSTELLO: Nischelle Turner, thanks so much.

TURNER: You're welcome. You're welcome, darling.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Thanks for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello everyone and welcome to "LEGAL VIEW". I'm Ashleigh Banfield. It's Monday September 23.

And our breaking news continues almost after two and a half days after Islamic gunmen laid siege to a mall in Nairobi, Kenya. That country's interior minister says and I'm going to quote him here, "We are in charge of the situation."