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Critics: Employer Delay Favors Big Biz; How to Break the Impasse in Washington; "Captain Phillips"; One Family's Struggle with a Furlough

Aired October 08, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: The Speaker said on Sunday there weren't enough votes to pass it. And that's really not correct. Because we know 200 Democrats have said they will vote for it and now 25 or so Republicans have publicly said they will support. So bring up the bill and let's get the government moving again.

(CROSSTALK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: But -- but maybe -- maybe the House Speaker would more likely be willing to introduce that bill in the House of Representatives if he had a conversation with President Obama first.

LEVIN: Why does he have to have it first? Why keep the shutdown going before you talk to the President? Why do that?

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Because negotiations work two ways, right?

LEVIN: Yes. But they'll be negotiations. But why use the shutdown of the government as a leverage? That -- that is not appropriate. It hasn't been done, basically. And it hurts a lot of people.

Mark Zandi says if it goes on for three weeks, we lose a percentage plus of GDP. So it's irresponsible to hold this place hostage in order for what you think will be your leverage. That isn't the kind of bargaining we want.

COSTELLO: So -- so just -- just going back -- going back to negotiations and everything on table including perhaps Obamacare, there are things within that law that both Democrats and Republicans don't like.

Let's listen to Congressman Eric Cantor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R), VIRGINIA: Last effort to fully fund the government we asked for an end of special treatment for congress, simple. And we said if you're having a hard time using Obamacare's broken Web site, you shouldn't be penalized for not signing up this year, very simple. That's all we were asking for. A one-year delay of that tax is more than fair given how poorly the rollout of Obamacare has been. And President Obama gave the same relief that we're asking for to big business. But the President and Senator Reid wanted to protect that tax. So we asked to sit down and talk, and they said, no.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEVIN: Let me answer each of these.

COSTELLO: Ok.

LEVIN: Let me because these are phony arguments of Eric Cantor. There isn't special treatment for members. We are placed in the exchange, no longer getting our federal plan. We're now being employed -- all of our staff and members are employed. Employers in this country pay some portion of health care. That's what this is all about. We're going to go into the exchanges and our employer will pay a part of our tax and we'll pay the rest like everybody else.

COSTELLO: But here is the confusing thing. Your employer is the federal government.

LEVIN: Yes the employer is the federal government now pays a portion of the health insurance for all federal employees. So there is no special treatment. That's phony.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about --

LEVIN: And in terms of special business, it's so humorous that Eric Cantor who had often been really more than hugged sometimes perhaps much more than that by what he calls big business, now all the sudden he's taking out after big business. When the big business said to the administration, give us one more year and that's what happened. So it is -- it is so much worse than ironical. It's hypocritical for him to say that. It's hypocritical.

COSTELLO: Well let me lay something by you that both Democrats and Republicans do agree. There is this excise tax on medical devices. Democrats and Republicans don't like that because it places the burden on small businesses. So why not sit down and talk about getting rid of that part of Obamacare?

LEVIN: Well first of all, about 80 percent of this tax falls on a small number of larger medical device businesses. So they talk about small business. A small portion of it is. When we put together the health care bill, the health insurance companies, the hospitals, the physicians, and the medical device group said, we will participate in making this work.

They signed a letter, all of them, saying that they would participate including the representatives of the medical device people. Now they want to withdraw from that. We can have that discussion. But it should not be used as part of the leverage to keep the government open. That's what this is all about.

COSTELLO: And we have to leave it there. Congressman Sander Levin of Michigan, thank you so much for joining me this morning.

LEVIN: Thank you. And I hope today that they'll be a vote, Speaker Boehner should put this on the floor. It will end the shutdown and he'll get, my guess is 250 votes. Mr. Speaker, give us a vote. Don't hide. Give us a vote.

COSTELLO: Well, we'll see what happens later today. Thank you so much.

LEVIN: Thank you.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM. Living with a furlough. We'll talk to a woman about her family's struggle living through a partial government shutdown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We're back.

Let's talk some more about the partial government shutdown. And explore the way out of this mess in Washington. Come on there's got to be a way out short of kicking the bums out. We've come up with three ideas. One, Republicans vote on a spending plan with no strings attached that's in Obamacare; two, Democrats accept some delay on Obamacare; or three, a steel cage death match.

Ok so number three is a joke, but admittedly it's the most desired outcome because I'd pay to watch that.

With me to talk about all of this political science professor from Hiram College, Jason Johnson and Will Cain, political writer for "The Blaze" and CNN political commentator. Welcome to you both.

JASON JOHNSON, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning.

WILL CAIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Good morning. So Will, I'll ask you that question. What is the way out of this mess?

CAIN: You -- you think you're going to be surprised about my answer? I'm going to take option two on your list. Democrats opt for some compromise to move this government forward and get it back up and running again. And I think the offers have been made. And I think it -- you know for example, a clear option could be delaying the individual mandate. So let's go with option two.

COSTELLO: Ok so Jason, it sounds kind of reasonable. John Boehner said at the top of hour "I want to have a discussion with the President everything is on the table." So why can't one of those things be Obamacare? JOHNSON: I think one of the problems is that the Republicans keep giving Obama like a blank ransom note. Like they want something, they want something and it's been really clear the President doesn't want to negotiate. I have a fourth option that they can go for, the 2014 midterms. If Obamacare is going to be such a huge mess anyway, the Republicans should let it roll out, absolutely fail, run in 2014 and take over the Senate. I think there are things they can do other than holding the government and the debt ceiling hostage and still make their point.

COSTELLO: Ok so see that doesn't solve the problem, though. That's just kicking the can down the road like they always do.

JOHNSON: Well not necessarily. Because what it does is if you can take control -- you increase your control of the House. Take control of the Senate. You can actually make more of a legislative point because the President will then be trapped with trying to argue with two houses of Congress rather than having that stop gap with Harry Reid. And I think that's a good and democratic way for the Republicans to move forward.

COSTELLO: Will?

CAIN: This is a -- this is a democratic. What's going -- what's going on right now is a democratic process. Look it's interesting. For much of this debate over the government shutdown, it has been on the right, with the right, between those on the right on whether or not this is a good strategy.

But when I encounter arguments like the one Jason is making and they need to be clarified. First of all, there are two arguments made against the legitimacy of a government shutdown and extracting demands from President Obama.

One is this idea that we had an election, President Obama was reelected in 2012 and therefore the argument is over. But there were also many of the members of the House of Representative that were also elected in 2012. And before that in 2010. Did they not come in with an electoral mandate, did they not come in with responsibilities to constituents? The idea that President Obama's election into this debate is silly.

But the second thing is the legitimacy is it's law argument. We hear it from Jon Stewart and others it's the law. There are many laws. Many bad laws from Jim Crow laws before to silly laws today.

JOHNSON: Oh my God.

CAIN: And it doesn't mean that's an argument either.

JOHNSON: Ok look, look.

CAIN: No, no.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Let Jason respond.

JOHNSON: If you're going to Jim Crowe?

CAIN: President Obama himself --

JOHNSON: Jim Crowe? That doesn't make any sense one way or another. Look this is very, very simple.

(CROSSTALK)

CAIN: Well it illustrates Jason is it's the law isn't an argument.

JOHNSON: It calls you to win an election and then you can make your point. And I didn't say the law is an argument. I said that there are other strategic ways this can be done. Because I'll be honest with you they're representing their citizens and their constituencies, they're also representing the United States.

And holding the entire U.S. economy and putting the workers on furlough and holding the global economy on hostage because you don't like a particular policy. That's a violation of the oath that you take to represent this country. That's the argument here.

CAIN: Well, so just to respond to that conflating two separate arguments. One, the government shutdown hasn't had a global economic impact.

JOHNSON: I'm talking about the debt ceiling.

CAIN: Ok then transition we're having a separate argument now, it's not about the shutdown. And I agree with you about the debt ceiling. You don't hold the debt ceiling hostage. Going over the debt ceiling will have global impacts --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Wait, you agree with Jason?

CAIN: But it's important -- it's important for people to separate these two issues. It's important not to conflate them and rush to the conclusion you want to lead to, which is Republicans are so silly. It's actually important to understand what we're debating.

JOHNSON: The suggestion that people don't and that's why they disagree with the Republican Party, is part of why we keep talking back and forth and not making a point. I don't think that the Republicans are inherently wrong for having problems with the Affordable Care Act. I just think there is a better strategy to go ahead with doing this. And they are the ones who conflated these two issues. If they hasn't waited the entire summer, because they thought Obama was going to blink, we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. There is a better way to go and it's a way to actually respect the entire United States Republic not just the constituency that's putting you back in office.

COSTELLO: All right we're going to have to leave it there, guys. CAIN: All right.

COSTELLO: Thanks so much for the spirited conversation.

CAIN: Thanks.

COSTELLO: Jason Johnson and Will Cain.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM parts of Washington closed for business. And that means thousands are not working during the shutdown.

Up next, how one family is dealing with all of that. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The new Tom Hanks movie is taking heat despite rave reviews. "Captain Phillips" tells the real life story of the Maersk Alabama, a ship hijacked by Somali pirates in 2009. The captain was taken hostage and later hailed a hero. Some of the crew members are speaking out saying the movie got it all wrong.

Here's CNN's Drew Griffin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As their captain was being lauded as a hero, the crew of the Maersk Alabama watched and bit their tongues. No more.

MIKE PERRY, CHIEF ENGINEER, MAERSK ALABAMA: We vowed we were going to take it to our grave. We weren't going to say anything. Then we hear this PR stuff coming out about him giving himself up and we said, and he's still on -- he's still a hostage. And we -- the whole crew is like, what? Because everybody's in shock.

GRIFFIN: Back in 2010, the Alabama's chief engineer, Mike Perry, told us he and most of the crew couldn't believe the story being painted about their captain, Captain Richard Phillips, that he had given himself up in exchange for the safety of his crew.

Left out of the entire story, says Perry, is the captain's recklessness that steered the Maersk Alabama into pirate-infested waters. According to crew members, Captain Phillips, on a voyage from Oman to Mombasa, Kenya, set a course to save money. That route would shorten the trip and, according to third engineer John Cornan, put the crew directly in harm's way.

JOHN CORNAN, THIRD ENGINEERING OFFICER, MAERSK ALABAMA: He was advised to change course by competent deck officers and he overruled them. Stay on course. Make our ETA. Stay on the same course.

GRIFFIN: In a 2010 interview, Captain Richard Phillips told us he was not used to criticism. When CNN confronted him with these e-mails and his crews' concerns, he said it was the first time his judgment had been questioned. (on camera): The complaint is that there were specific e-mails sent to your ship stressing the need to go further out to sea.

CAPT. RICHARD PHILLIPS, MAERSK ALABAMA: Yes. So something like that, we will deal with that in the arena that they wish, and that's the court. That's what this is based on.

GRIFFIN: Is it true?

PHILLIPS: There are warnings put out - I don't know what authorities he's talking about. He doesn't say.

GRIFFIN: Well, I have the e-mails.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

GRIFFIN: You've seen the e-mails.

PHILLIPS: I haven't seen e-mails since I've been on the ship.

GRIFFIN: You got them, right? But you were warned to go further out to sea.

PHILLIPS: We were warned to stay clear of an area, yes.

GRIFFIN (voice-over): The captain is now a witness in a contentious lawsuit between some of the crew and the shipping company. In a deposition just last year, Captain Phillips admitted he did indeed receive the e-mail warnings. He also admits he kept the warnings to himself.

Asked by a plaintiff's attorney why he didn't move further offshore, Phillips testifies, "I don't believe 600 miles would make you safe. I didn't believe 1,200 miles would make you safe." Phillips told us much of the criticism is driven by human nature and by lawsuits filed by members of his crew. He also says the story itself was fueled by a press that wanted a hero, a captain who saved his crew, a good story and now a movie.

TOM HANKS, ACTOR, "CAPTAIN PHILLIPS": Four pirates on board. Four pirates.

PHILLIPS: The media got everything wrong. I don't know how I could control this when I'm in a lifeboat and the media is saying I gave myself up for it. In the book, if you read it -- have you read that book?

GRIFFIN (on camera): I did. I read it.

PHILLIPS: So you know I didn't give myself up. I was already a hostage by then.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: To his credit Captain Phillips told us back in 2010, he didn't consider himself a hero, never would. Carol he says the real heroes were the Navy SEALs that rescued them all.

COSTELLO: I'm curious about this lawsuit. What does the crew want?

GRIFFIN: Well, the crew wants compensation. They're suing the shipping company because they believe that the ship's captain who they were assigned to steered them into this mess by ignoring those warnings.

COSTELLO: So they want money -- compensation?

GRIFFIN: Of course. That's what lawsuits are all about. They probably want to sock the guy in the mouth. But here in the United States we get money instead.

COSTELLO: So true. Drew Griffin, thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: For thousands of federal employees, this shutdown is having a very real impact. Vicky Woeste has seen the effects of the furlough up close. Her husband, a government geneticist, is one of those affected. Vicky joins me now from Indianapolis. Good morning.

VICKY WOESTE, HUSBAND IS A GOVERNMENT GENETICIST: Good morning Carol.

COSTELLO: Than you so much for being with me this morning. Your husband was supposed to be on with us. He's a government worker. But he decided it was best he not appear. Can you tell us why?

WOESTE: Well, as you can imagine, he felt it was the responsible thing to do to check with his supervisor. And he was told that the agency was strongly discouraging furloughed employees from speaking to the press about anything having to do with the shutdown.

He was very much disappointed and he would much prefer to have been able to speak. And he would right now prefer to be working.

COSTELLO: Well, absolutely.

WOESTE: He hoped to be here.

COSTELLO: Why did they tell him -- why did they not want him to talk to the media?

WOESTE: Well, for one thing, there is nobody at work at the Forest Service right now to give him guidance about what he could or could not say. So that's one problem. And another, sort of structural issue is that, these agencies are all bound by federal laws which restrict what federal employees can say about the nature of their work.

So there was -- there was a matter of how that law would have been interpreted as applied to the shutdown and employees talking about how they are affected by it. So he decided to be discreet about it. COSTELLO: Tell me how it's affecting your family right now.

WOESTE: Well, we have a family of four teenagers. And I would say at this point, mostly what they're feeling is a great deal of anxiety about the fact that the shutdown is open-ended. And we don't know when it will be possible for my husband to receive his paychecks. We are already sort of in hunker down mode and trying to avoid as much sort of discretionary spending as we can. We're fortunate in that we have some savings to draw on. But if this goes on for much longer, we'll feel a real pinch and that will be a problem.

COSTELLO: Are you confident that your husband will get back-pay when all of this is over?

WOESTE: We feel a little bit more confident about that possibility now that the House has passed the bill that they passed on Saturday. But it's by no means clear how that will work and when he would receive the back pay. So we could go a month or two or three with this unexpected drop in income.

And, you know, we have a high school senior who is planning to go to college next year. And, you know, we're trying to get ready for that. And in the short-term, it costs money to apply to college. So we've got, you know, substantial family expenses that we can't avoid. And this is coming at really a difficult time.

COSTELLO: I understand. Vicky Woeste, thank you so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it.

WOESTE: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

COSTELLO: Sure. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Everybody's favorite anchor man, Ron Burgundy is back. And guess what -- he's pitching for Chrysler.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILL FERRELL, ACTOR: On my right is the new Dodge with up to 360 horsepower. On my left, is one horse with one horsepower -- that makes you feel pretty dumb, doesn't it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Alison Kosik is here to talk about this. I don't know if that would make me run out and buy a Chrysler.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: You know what; I think I would really want to watch these commercials. They're like little mini movies or little SNL sketches kind of, you know, G-rated SNL sketches. He's funny. He really is. And for Chrysler, this is what they want. They want star power in their ads.

You know, they've done this before with M&Ms and Clint Eastwood. Now it's Will Ferrell as Ron Burgundy. And for Ferrell, it winds up being a promotion for the new "Anchor Man" movie. Every ad tells when the movie comes out. It's really not something we usually see in car commercials.

But this cross promotion kind of thing is more common in movies and TV shows. And usually car commercials -- you know how they are -- they feature a car driving along the road tackling those twists and turns. But what Chrysler is trying to do is kind of shake things up because it's got a lot on the line.

It's the only one of the big three automakers that hasn't gone public. And throughout the recession, it was considered the weakest of the big three. But now you look at auto sales, they're rebounding. So Chrysler is trying to take advantage of the momentum but clearly in a very different way. I think it's gotten my attention. I love Will Ferrell.

COSTELLO: I know, they are funny and it's interesting because Hollywood has actually shot the commercials. Chrysler didn't go out and like hire an advertising agency to make the commercials.

KOSIK: Exactly. Because the budget that Chrysler has is the smallest advertising budget. You look and you sort of compare it with the others, it's significantly less so this sort of barter system is the way that Chrysler went about it.

COSTELLO: Alison Kosik thank you.

That will do it for us today. I'm Carol Costello.

"LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: When U.S. troops pay the ultimate price, the government steps in to pay burial costs and other benefits to those grieving families. So what happens when the government shuts down? The sad and shocking truth as United States turns its back on our fallen heroes.

Also ahead, a college student calls it the worst thing that ever happened in his life. A police dog tearing at his neck, five officers pounding him down to the ground and all of it --