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Incognito and Martin, Odd Couple; Can NFL Brand Survive Repeated Hits?

Aired November 08, 2013 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richie Incognito's locker, his clothes hanging neatly, quite a contrast to the mess and how else do you put it, caused by the Incognito/Jonathan Martin bullying scandal. Thursday Dolphins head coach Joe Philbin was back in front of the microphones, he wanted to talk Tampa Bay, the opponent Monday night, nothing else.

JOE PHILBIN, MIAMI DOLPHINS HEAD COACH: Any comments that we would make at this time would be, you know, a disservice to the process that's about to take place.

ZARRELLA: In the locker room most players had had enough of it, too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only time we have to deal about this is when the media comes here, you know, asks us questions.

ZARRELLA: When asked how does a locker room stay together with all this distraction, people outside of the football world don't get it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That sucks for them, you know.

ZARRELLA: OK. We get that. Players who would talk were still trying to make sense of it all.

KYLE MILLER, MIAMI DOLPHINS TIGHT END: It gets to the point where you can't differentiate between what's fact and what's opinions.

ZARRELLA: What's been most puzzling is the relationship between Incognito and Martin that has begun to emerge. Can we really believe they were best friends as some have said? Two men from very different backgrounds and experiences. Martin, a Stanford grad, who talked of attending Harvard Law, a quiet guy by all accounts, and Incognito, perhaps the polar opposite, a man who at least one time apparently thought little of screaming racial slurs and using vulgar language publicly.

RICHIE INCOGNITO, MIAMI DOLPHINS GUARD: Who let the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

ZARRELLA: The player twice voted by his peers one of the dirtiest guys in the game.

TYSON CLABO, MIAMI DOLPHINS OFFENSIVE TACKLE: What's perceived is that Richie is this psychopath racist maniac, right? And the reality is that Richie was a pretty good teammate and that Richie and Jonathan Martin were friends.

ZARRELLA: Players even saying they hung out together, off the field and on it. They played next to each other on the left side of Miami's offensive line, protecting the franchise quarterback's blind side.

So were they friends? Enemies? Did Martin hang with Incognito because he was afraid not to? In time we'll know, just not right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZARRELLA: Now today is an off day for the Dolphins as they prepare for the Monday night game in Tampa Bay. So we will not hear anything today from the coaches or the players -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: OK. I have to ask you about something else because there's so many ugly rumors surrounding this story. We have -- we have rumors of a woman's harassment complaint against Richie Incognito. What can you tell us about that?

ZARRELLA: Yes, it's not a rumor. It was back in 2012. She was a volunteer at a Miami Dolphins -- football, Miami Dolphins golf tournament. And she did file a police report. No charges were filed. But she had accused Incognito of touching her inappropriately with a golf club -- Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. So, John Zarrella, you're going to stick around with us through this half hour. Thanks so much.

ZARRELLA: Sure.

COSTELLO: Count the NFL controversies over the last year or so, bouncy gates, Aaron Hernandez, the Redskins name, concussions and now this Dolphins mess. And it sounds pretty damaging, right? Well, not to the mighty NFL. The league that attracts millions of fans and makes billions of dollars. Just one of the premier franchises, the Dallas Cowboys worth $2.3 billion.

But can the league's brand withstand repeated hits? Our lineup today includes NFL great Jamal Anderson, Bleacher Report's Andy Scholes, both here with me in the studio. Eric Dezenhall is the CEO of Dezenhall Resources and the author of "Damage Control." And CNN's Nischelle Turner is a former NFL sideline reporter.

Welcome to all of you. Appreciate you being here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thank you. Come on, get excited here.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy to be here, Carol. NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: All right, Carol, let's do this.

COSTELLO: All right.

TURNER: All right.

COSTELLO: So, Eric, I want to start with you. The NFL, I mean, they do a fabulous job of PR, because they brainwash people from childhood to love their team. So will all of these repeated hits actually hurt them in the end?

ERIC DEZENHALL, CEO, DEZENHALL RESOURCES: Well, look, I mean, there are nuisances, there are problems and there are crises. And I think that this comes down to collectively a problem.

You know, you keep hearing about this vague concept about changing the culture, which is kind of an abstraction. You change a culture by changing and addressing very specific problems. On the -- on the concussions issues, I actually have to say, of all of the industries that I have observed over the years, the type of actions that have been taken recently to address that are pretty extraordinary when you add up massive legal settlements, preventative actions outlawing fundamental forms of behavior on the field that cause the injuries, when you add all of this up, the way you change the culture is through specific actions.

As to the Incognito incident, one of the things that I found is the first story you hear is not the same as the second and is not the same as the eighth. And they're really doing the right thing by bringing in an investigator to look -- to look at it because right now we really don't know and we're really not going to address it through this abstraction of how you change a culture. You change it through specific actions if and when you find out those actions are warranted.

COSTELLO: OK. Well, let's just take a look at the Miami Dolphins culture. And I'm going to address this to Jamal. So the coach comes out and says, wow, honesty, integrity. That's our motto in the locker room. You hear all these players trashing Jonathan Martin, saying Richie Incognito is a great guy. But his actions tell us he may not be. We're getting mixed messages here.

JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: We are. Listen. Football is a collision sport. It's a -- it's a sport for the most part that requires tough people. Tough people physically and mentally. But tough people don't have to be bad people. And what you're seeing here are guys on the Miami Dolphins football team who respect a guy who battles in the trenches, play in and play out. For lack of any other better word, he has their back. They know that they can count on Richie and he's the type of guy in these -- in these hostile environment --

COSTELLO: But when they say these things about Richie, it's sort of like -- OK, you remember the Mean Joe Green commercial where the little, you know, little kids there?

ANDERSON: Do I ever? Absolutely.

COSTELLO: Right? He gives him his jersey.

ANDERSON: Right.

COSTELLO: What if Mean Joe Green was Richie Incognito and a kid had asked him for a sip of Coke, would Richie Incognito do to the kids? Smack him and say toughen up?

ANDERSON: No, I'm not -- I'm not saying that. But here's the thing. Obviously what happened here with Jonathan Martin definitely went too far. And the thing is, we don't know everything yet. There are disturbing reports and text messages and different things.

I mean, I'm like, I've never even heard of anything like that. And that's why we were talking about it the other day, I'm like, that goes to the leadership of your team. I mean the things that players, particularly young players, go through there isn't any set rules for each and every team. It's based on the leadership of your team.

But it's not even anything to that level because, by the way, you're not there to teach people to be man, you should be a man. You've made it now to the top of -- there's only 1800 NFL players. Yet millions of kids play football. Then there's hundreds of thousands and then you get to college. There's 1800 NFL players. You're not there to haze people, you're there to win football games.

COSTELLO: Exactly. And --

ANDERSON: You're there to try to win a championship.

COSTELLO: And, Andy, if my little kid, if my little boy wants to be a big football player and admires these players and worships them, just listening to some of this stuff, I mean, I'm concerned as a parent because these football players are teaching my kid a message I don't want them to have.

ANDY SCHOLES, BLEACHER REPORT: Yes, as you said, you know, things must have definitely gone too far in this situation. But you have to think, how long has the NFL been around? Forty, 50 years? This has never happened before at least -- yes, at least to a point where a player had to leave a team. So --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Come on. So it only happened in Miami but no place else. Come on.

ANDERSON: You better think about this, Carol. Here's the thing. You've got to think about this. The NFL locker room is comprised of many different dynamic personalities. The good teams, the organization that have a chance to win year and year out, they manage those personalities successfully with a common goal. To win football games, to play in the playoffs, to play in the championships.

There are a lot of fantastic guys who play in the NFL who do charitable work all over the place with publicity, without publicity. There are all kinds of people. It's like your workplace. Everybody in CNN center is not a good person. They may look --

COSTELLO: Oh, come on.

ANDERSON: I'm just saying.

COSTELLO: I now get what you're saying. But why aren't those players coming out and saying, hey, what's going on, Miami? We're going to talk about that after a break. We've got to take a break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We're talking NFL this hour. CNN's Nischelle Turner, Bleacher Report's Andy Scholes, former Falcons running back Jamal Anderson, and marketing expert Eric Dezenhall.

While the NFL grapples with a host of controversy, fans continue to support their team. Even in Miami, fans are not exactly boycotting the Dolphins over allegations of bullying. In fact many of them seem to be on Richie Incognito's side.

So let's talk about that with Big Papa Pump. Big Papa Pump is in Miami. He's a Miami superfan. His real name is Thomas Phillips.

Welcome, Big Papa Pump.

THOMAS "BIG PAPA PUMP" PHILLIPS, MIAMI DOLPHINS SUPERFAN: Hey, how are you doing?

COSTELLO: I'm good. So I know you're going to be at the Dolphins- Bucks game Monday night. How will fans react when the cameras turn on them?

PHILLIPS: I mean, it's just like a family dispute right now. You know, everybody. You know, we're all family. And, you know, the fans are like, you know, wondering what's really -- what is the outcome going to be. You know, they want to know what the outcome is going to be. Everybody want it over fast. You know, but, you know, we know it's going to linger on for a long time due to the press, you know, everybody trying to find out something that -- you know, well, put it this way, everyone is speculating, you know, a lot of things. We don't really know what's really going on.

COSTELLO: Well, you know --

PHILLIPS: But the only people who know is Richie and Martin.

COSTELLO: It is a shame because Miami is doing better this season. And, you know, we all have memories of those great Miami teams with Don Shula and Dan Marino and now this comes up. And it sort of tarnishes the brand, doesn't it?

PHILLIPS: Yes. I mean it's -- it's rough. It's very rough. You know, I mean, we're -- (LAUGHTER)

I don't know how to say it. But, you know, I mean, being a football player myself, you know coming up, you know, and just knowing, you know, the camaraderie in the locker room. And you know, the -- you know, the playing around, you know, the conversations, you know, it's like, you know, family. You know, I don't -- I don't understand how this leaked out like this.

COSTELLO: Well, I have some ideas.

Nischelle, I want to post this question to you. So fans are going to remain loyal in Miami. They're going to be at the game and they're going to be cheering on their team. And if they're team wins, so much the better. But you -- I don't know. You kind of come to that point where you wonder if players and teams really deserve such loyalty. And at what point teams lose the loyalty.

TURNER: Well, I think when situations like this come up, I mean, you see Big Papa there, Carol, who is obviously a Miami fan and who obviously doesn't want to say anything against their team. Most fans are like that. But I do think there comes a point, we're seeing it time and time again, coming up now. If it's the Redskins name change. We see some fans saying maybe we should think about this.

We're seeing situations like this coming up where fans are now having to ask the question, can I support a player who potentially could have been doing some really damaging hurtful things to another?

I do think that the NFL can pretty much withstand any sort of onslaught of bad publicity. I mean, they're just wildly popular. You don't hear anyone saying, well, you know, I hate the NFL or I -- I mean, it's a $9.9 billion a year brand. I mean, I just don't think these type of things are going to turn people away from the game.

COSTELLO: But, see, that amazes me, Eric, and I want to pose this question to you. I'm a Detroit Lions fan, right? And when -- hey, when --

ANDERSON: No, the Lions are doing this.

COSTELLO: They are. When the Lions play, I (INAUDIBLE) Ndamukong Suh. Now when the Lions aren't on the field, I know, you know, if I'm just thinking logically that he's a dirty player and he deserves that tag. But when I'm watching the game, I'm all for him. And after the game, I wonder, how can that be? The NFL has done a good job on me.

DEZENHALL: Well, look, what people say publicly and what people feel are very, very different things. I mean in crisis management, we differentiate between a problem 4 that is huge and one that is chronic. In other words, do we expect this or don't we? I think in the case of Incognito and behavior like that, in today's culture, if we're talking about racially charged statements, I think we're dealing with something that is exotic and catastrophic.

I think if we're talking about rough-housing, it's a whole different thing. The same is true that as we go forward on this issue, I think most people intuitively understand that NFL football is not badminton. And that there is going to be -- there are certain forms of voluntary behavior that we expect to see and are not going to be offended by.

If we're talking about that evidence emerges that there is chronic behavior in terms of racism or chronically ignoring injuries, I think it's a different thing. But if you look at what's happening on both accounts, there is a tremendous amount being done to address some of this.

COSTELLO: Gotcha. OK. I've got to take a break. We'll be back with much more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CURT MENEFEE, HOST, FOX NFL SUNDAY: We throw the word bullying around which carries a lot of weight in this society right now because it is a real problem particularly with young people. But we've assumed that this is bullying. There's a difference between bullying someone and having someone being a willing participant in going back and forth with one another and giving each other a hard time, and then feeling that that person cross the line.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: We're talking NFL this hour with CNN's Nischelle Turner, Bleacher Report's Andy Scholes, former Falcons running back Jamal Anderson and CNN's John Zarrella who is in Miami covering the controversy there.

So let's talk about locker room culture because it's a lot different than the culture in office buildings and job sites most of us are used to.

So, Jamal, you spent years inside those NFL locker rooms. But I must -- I must press as my question, and I got a statement from Jonathan Martin's attorney, right?

ANDERSON: Right.

COSTELLO: He said this, the issue goes far beyond hazing. He says this is absolutely bullying because of the level of abuse, including physical abuse, that Jonathan Martin endured.

So in your estimation as you step back and look at all these conflicting stories -- no, John Zarrella, you're not clear, stay right there. So as you step back and you look at all of these conflicting stories, in your mind is it bullying? Is it hazing? What is it?

ANDERSON: You know, I -- the bullying thing, we have a hard time with it. Because on play in and play out in this league, you're asked to line up and hit another guy. You're asked, this is a collision sport. So for football players, the guys that know the sport, the bullying aspect is difficult when you're talking about two men who are of equal size in the same group.

Listen, as the Miami Dolphins as a group, which it doesn't -- based on what they're saying they didn't know that this was occurring to this level, they didn't know this was occurring to this level, they did not know that -- they're not talking about other people being a party to what happened with Jonathan Martin.

I wonder, is it a situation where he didn't fit the particular culture of their locker room and maybe he wasn't one of their guys. And there you have a difference in how people are approaching the game and what the guys do. Again, there are other African-Americans who are offensive lineman that play with the Dolphins on the line with Jonathan Martin. In fact, Richie and Jonathan were right next to each other.

I mean, the things that's so interesting to me is, traditionally I've had rookie offensive linemen before. If they're starters, yes, they go through a certain process where you're trying to teach them how to be a good pro, what it takes to win. But you need those guys on your football team to win. So you try to bring them along. They're assets for your team. Jonathan Martin was a guy who started and played in the majority of the games he appeared for the Miami Dolphins.

COSTELLO: Well, let's go back to what you mentioned about Jonathan Martin being different from the players. Because, John Zarrella, you touched on this. Jonathan Martin, from all accounts, is a smart guy, went to Stanford.

ZARRELLA: Right. Right.

COSTELLO: He's going to go to law school. Much, much different from Richie Incognito. And, John Zarrella, I want you to get into that. How are they different?

ZARRELLA: Well, I mean, they are -- they're just -- come from those two different worlds. You have Richie Incognito who as we all know was cut twice at Nebraska. He goes to Oregon, he's only on the football team there for a month. He enters the NFL, he was considered by head coaches to be not draftable because of, quote, "character issues." And then he becomes, you know, voted twice one of the nastiest, dirtiest players of the NFL.

And on the other end of the spectrum, you have a young man in Jonathan Martin, goes to Stanford, he scores, you know, way, way high on all of the testing, even testing leading into the NFL, it's reported he scored very, very high. A guy who talked about going to Harvard Law where his parents went after his playing days were over.

So there's this dichotomy. You know, two totally different personalities. And then the questions came up, well, they were best of friends. And you sit there going, huh? How does that happen? That these two guys were form different worlds.

(CROSSTALK)

ANDERSON: Well, you know, also, John Richie Incognito last year -- Richie Incognito last year was voted the good guy on the Miami Dolphins football team from the Miami media. He was --

COSTELLO: He was voted one of the dirtiest players by the wider NFL. Weird.

ANDERSON: But you just said a moment ago Ndamukong Suh has that fringe reputation but this is a collision sport. These guys play in what we call the trenches. We can't act surprised when they're a little bit more physical in certain instances. You want tough guys but you want them to be good guys.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: OK. Wait a minute. I have to -- I have take a break so I'm going to let you do that after the break, Nischelle. And I also want to talk to you woman to woman about this weird man thing going on.

TURNER: All right.

COSTELLO: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Let's wrap our NFL conversation. So, Nischelle Turner, you get the last word.

TURNER: Whoa, all right. Well, I just think this is a very interesting situation here, Carol. And I'm a little concerned by all of the players and current and former that have come out, saying, can you really be bullied, and maybe not taking this so seriously?

Because I do think that this is a serious issue. And for someone of Jonathan Martin's stature to come out and say this is happening, that takes a lot of strength so I think we have to listen to his words and listen to them seriously.

COSTELLO: All right. Thanks to Jamal Anderson, Nischelle Turner, John Zarrella, Andy Scholes, and Eric Dezenhall. He had to go.

Thank you all for joining us today. "LEGAL VIEW" with Ashleigh Banfield starts now.