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Two People In North Carolina Facing Intentional Child Abuse Charges And Cruelty To Animal Charges; Austin Clem Found Guilty Of Rape And Sentenced to House Arrest; SnapChat Rejects Facebook's Offer; Born into Typhoon Destruction; Writer Says He Hates Being Black

Aired November 16, 2013 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us. Top of the hour. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Don Lemon.

I want you to picture this. A deputy sheriff walks up to a house, sees a child handcuffed to the porch by the ankle and there's a dead chicken hanging around the boy's neck. This really happened in Union County, North Carolina. Two adults, a man and woman, are in custody at this hour. And what the woman does for a living will surprise you.

CNN's Rosa Flores joins me now with the details on this.

We have new video of the scene. What can you tell us about this?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have new video of the house, the outside of the house, of live animals, a chained animal and even a dead chicken. We don't know if this dead chicken is the one that was allegedly around this boy's neck. But we have that video, folks.

Here is what we know. Dorian Lee Harper and Wanda Sew Larson (ph), both 57 years of age, now facing intentional child abuse, inflicting serious injury, false imprisonment and cruelty to animal charges. Larson is also charged with willful failure to discharge her duty as a public official. Because here this, she is currently employed as a supervisor with the union county department of social services. You heard that right, social services. And this is what authorities found at her house, a dead chicken that was around the neck of an 11-year- old child that was allegedly handcuffed to a porch.

Now, five children were removed from the house, ages eight to 14. Four of them were adopted children. The other child, a foster child. Now, the child that was allegedly handcuffed to the porch was that foster child. All the kids are in the custody of a social services agency outside of this county, which is important.

Now, here is what one neighbor had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOMMY BIGHAM, NEIGHBOR: There's no telling what those kids are going through. That's the thing I'm thinking about. I mean, them, kids, I bet they are so scared, it is unreal to do anything. A supervisor with DSS and she let that go on in her own house. Now that, to me, is something is wrong. When I see them go to the woods, he snuck through the backwoods to see what was going on. When he went to the woods, man he game out of there like grease lightning when he come back at me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being chased by the dog.

BIGHAM: I guess he seen that boy like he was handcuffed. And then he bleed, it was on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now CNN requested a comment from the Union County government and the public information officer, on said that they can't comment while this incident is under investigation.

And back to that woman who is the supervisor at social services, you don't have to work for social services to that this stuff is wrong, you know what I'm saying? But it just tells you, where is the judgment line? Where do you draw the line?

LEMON: Who was home when they arrived with the children, was it just the woman, you know? Who was there?

FLORES: The man was actually the one that was home. So, the deputy arrived, saw what was going on, approached the man and a dog came out of the house. So, he retreated to his cruiser. And then, that's when, you know, he eventually came back, ask the man for identification, asked him about the child, back-up arrived and (INAUDIBLE), they found the other children and he was arrested.

LEMON: So, there is cruelty to animal charges. Was that the reason they came to the house in the first place?

FLORES: They were actually going to the house next door. He just kind of stumbled on to, you know, the child being handcuffed to the porch. So, he decided to approach it and ask. And we don't know the details about the animal cruelty charges. But you can only imagine what the conditions were inside that house and outside. I mean, we can only obviously show video of the outside of the house. You saw the chained dog, the dead chicken on the porch. You see it there. You can only imagine.

LEMON: Yes, disgusting.

Thank you, Rosa. Appreciate it.

I want to move on to California. A family of four disappeared in 2010, no longer missing. Not a happy development though, because police yesterday uncovered the remains of a mom, dad and two boys from a desert grave 100 miles from their home. Michael and Summer McStay went missing with their son in February, 2010. Not a sign of them, not a hint, not a clue emerged until yesterday. The San Bernardino County sheriff's office is combing the scene for any clue as to who might have killed them and why.

An Alabama judge made a decision in a rape case that left the victim and prosecutor speechless. The jury found Austin Clem guilty of rape. His sentence, a form of house arrest with not a single hour behind bars.

CNN's Nick Valencia spoke with the woman who worried about what he could do next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COURTNEY ANDREWS, RAPE VICTIM: I don't understand. I still can't even process it.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baffled. Courtney Andrews says there's just no other way to describe how she feels after hearing that the man convicted of raping her repeatedly since she was 13-years-old will somehow avoid jail.

This week, an Alabama judge sentenced her attacker, 25-year-old Austin Clem to a total of 30 years behind bars. But he suspended those sentences after he gave Clem community corrections, equivalent to house arrest. Clem has to register as a sex offender.

ANDREWS: I just don't want him to hurt anyone else the way that he hurt me. And he gets to stay on these three little girls and it scares the crap out of me.

VALENCIA: You're scared for their safety?

ANDREWS: What's been done to me is done. I don't want anybody else getting hurt.

VALENCIA: Clem has a history of sexual assaults. And according to his attorney, he was sent for juvenile facility for a sex abuse case before he was 15. Frankly, the attorney said, I think the judge's sentence was surprising to most everyone in the courtroom. But with his track record, Andrews was convinced, Clem would be sentenced two years in jail. Instead, Clem will avoid seeing the ideas of the jail cell altogether if he follows the judge's orders.

Even still, Dan Totten, Clem's defense attorney, says the sentence is too harsh. It doesn't appear from her action that she was saying no, Totten said of the victim saying the relationship was consensual. This is the case with two sides of the coin. The evidence was not clear and convincing.

Now 20, Andrews won't hear any of that. She says she was manipulated by Clem for over six years and stayed in his life because she felt threatened.

ANDREWS: And I know the truth of what happened. And I have people that love me and they are going to support me and back me up. All those people that think that, they have a problem of their own.

VALENCIA: Prosecutors say they are looking into options to get the sentence overturned. Defense is also considering an appeal. As for the judge James Woodroof, he did not return CNN's calls for comment on the ruling. Andrews says she needs an explanation. ANDREWS: It's like saying that it's OK to hurt people. In Athens, Alabama, it's OK to rape someone and rape other people multiple times and it's OK, you can still walk the streets.

VALENCIA: Courtney Andrews isn't the only person left scratching her head after the judge's decision. Prosecutors are questioning the legality of that saying decisions saying community corrections is reserve for non-violent offenders. Now, of course, rape is a violent offense. Now, the defense, they stay that the Alabama state department of corrections can supersede the judge's order if they determine that Austin Clem has violated the judge's decision.

Nick Valencia, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right, Nick. Thank you very much for that.

The mayor of Toronto still has a job today. But if he loses many more powers, it will be a title only. Leaders of the biggest city in Canada took away most of Rob Ford's responsibilities as mayor. At the same time, begged him to step down and let the city be run by somebody who has not admitted to smoking crack.

Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Toronto.

Nic, Rob Ford does have support among voters in Toronto. But this is some seriously high pressure for him to resign. Tell us why he is refusing to do that?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He thinks he's going to be proven right. He is challenging in the court all these decisions that have been taken by the city council to strip away his powers. He thinks he will be proven right, the law is on his side and therefore voters will see that. And the wave of support he enjoys will only grow. That's his opinion. And then come election next year, he'll be reelected.

But during all this, all the statements that he has made, the comments that have caught people's attention, the profanities, the drug use, the drinking, all this is dragging his family's name through the mud, if you will.

The family respects the father, a respected politician here. This is something I asked his brother about, councilmember Doug Ford what this is doing to the family's legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG FORD, TORONTO COUNCILMEMBER: I think our legacy is going to be solid based on how Rob performs. You are going to look at a family that doesn't need to be doing this, that is actually sacrificed massive amounts of time, money, their business to serve the people.

ROBERTSON: Are you worried about his health with all this additional stress, not just the public or council, but the families, too? FORD: Yes. Well, I'm confident that the people that know us understand what we have done for our community.

ROBERTSON: Your brother's health?

FORD: That's right. The priority, obviously, his health. Health comes first over anything. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. So, we are confident that Rob is going to move forward. And only time will tell. If I sit here and tell you 100 percent Rob Ford is going to be perfect, I can't tell you that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: The family sees the pressure on him. His brother there, not sure, you know, how this really is going to play out despite the fact he's standing by his brother here -- Don.

LEMON: Two questions for you. I'll try to get it in one here, Nic.

It seems like the mayor and his family are in a bit of denial here. And then even with all this, he's going on, he is debuting on a new TV show on Monday. I mean, is this going to help or hurt with the damage control?

ROBERTSON: That all depends on what he says. And I talked to his brother about this, it's going to be called "Ford Nation." His brother, Doug, the councilman will be on the show with him. They have done a two-hour radio show before. He told me that they go in unscripted.

Let's face it, the mayor, when unscripted gets so far off script, it hurts him. So, it's anybody's guess at this state. But what they are hoping for is that their opportunity to answer the critics and get back in a big way and have an hour long show to speak back to voters saying we are right on this, we are right on this, we are right on this. That's, I think, probably what we can expect but who knows. The mayor is known to get it wrong when he speaks out before, Don.

LEMON: Yes, we have seen that. We witnessed it. Thank you, Nic Robertson.

It's been more than a week since Haiyan destroyed parts of the Philippines. Coming up, the problems facing the smallest victims of the super typhoon.

And as we approach the 50th anniversary of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, recently released by a recording shed new light on what happened outside the public's view that day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The day president Kennedy was assassinated there were urgent messages exchange between the airport's command center and the White House. And a lot of it was recorded on tape. Rare recordings that have only now been recovered from a general's personal event.

Details from chief Washington correspondent now, Jake Tapper.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As history and tragedy were unfolding at Dealey Plaza, radio and telephone communication squawked between the Air Force command center, White House and Air Force One.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is situation room. I read from the AP bulletin. Kennedy apparently shot in the head. He fell face down in the backseat of the car. Blood was on his head. Mrs. Kennedy cried, no, and tried to hold up his head.

TAPPER (voice-over): Earlier this year, these rare audio recordings were discovered in the personal effects of General Chester Clifton Jr., a military aid to President john F. Kennedy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want a post mortem that needs to be done under law at Walter reed.

TAPPER (voice-over): Forensic audio and video expert Ed Primeau was tasked with re-mastering and piecing together the new tape with older, incomplete copies.

ED PRIMEAU, FORENSIC AUDIO AND VIDEO EXPERT: It's spine tingling. It gives you goose bumps when you listen to it.

TAPPER (voice-over): The result is unflinching account of his pre- unfolding in realtime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president is dead. Is that correct? That is correct. That is correct.

PRIMEAU: We are hearing several commanders communicating logistical information about interrupting everybody's plans because the president was assassinated and what it's going to take to get them to all come together and deal with this disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president is on board, the body is on board and Mrs. Kennedy is on board.

TAPPER (voice-over): On the tapes, you can hear the military using code names. LBJ is volunteer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are waiting for the swearing in at the plane before takeoff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of the volunteer.

TAPPER (voice-over): That swearing in aboard Air Force One produced this iconic image of LBJ and the shaken Jackie Kennedy by his side. And after Air Force One was in the air, crews can be heard scrambling to sort out logistics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The casket is in the rear compartment, and we suggest because it is so heavy, that we have a fork lift, a fork lift back there to remove the casket.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Volunteer wants a patch with Mrs. Rose as soon as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With Mrs. Rose Kennedy, Roger.

TAPPER (voice-over): You can even h ear LBJ passing on condolences to JFK's mother, Rose Kennedy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish to God there was something I could do. And I want to tell you, we are grieving with you.

ROSE KENNEDY, JOHN F. KENNEDY'S MOTHER: Thank you very much. I know, I know that you love Jack and the he loved you.

TAPPER (voice-over): To Primeau, just as interesting as what is on the tapes is what is not. There are a number of obvious edits.

PRIMEAU: I think it's simple, whoever created the tapes had certain parts of the conversations they didn't want anybody to hear.

JOHN MCADAMS, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY: It's good for people to listen for themselves and see how things develop. Sometimes see the roughness of history.

TAPPER (voice-over): John McAdams is a political science teacher at Marquette University. He says these are not likely to be the last traces of history that surface, even after 50 years after the assassination.

MCADAMS: The truth is a lot of stuff fell between the cracks. This particular tape, which was in the possession of General Clifton took almost half a century to show up. The historical record on all kinds of fronts is a bit more ragged than one might think.

Jake Tapper, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Make sure to watch Sunday night, 9:00 eastern for "the assassination of president Kennedy." It's only here on CNN.

Facebook, twitter, Instagram, now you can add Snapchat to the way social media is helping people stay in touch especially teens. So parents, this one is for you. After the break, we are going to show you what this Snapchat is all about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is the holy grail for gamers. The new Play station 4 is flying off shelves. Officially went until Friday. And fans are shelling out $400 to bring it home. It is been almost seven years since the last version came out. Has it been really that long? The system has some tough completion though. Microsoft's X-Box One comes out November 22nd. OK, so are messages that disappear after just seconds worth $3 billion? Apparently, Facebook certainly thinks so. The messaging app, Snapchat has turned down a reported multibillion dollar buyout for facebook that comes just as teens used to the Facebook. You can call it the Facebook if you want, cooling off. A trend suggested by recent research, even acknowledged by Facebook itself. But, what makes this Silicon Valley start up so special?

Here is CNN's Laurie Segall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: Snapchat, you can call is the hottest new app in social networking. This could be a snap chat. It is simple. You take a picture, write a message and send it to a friend.

But here is what makes it so popular with teenagers. You get to pick how long the message will appear. Once your friend gets the message, they hold down the home button to view it, then it disappears, no history, no trace.

Now the 2-year-old Snapchat has turned down a reported $3 billion buyout offer from facebook. Even though the company makes no money today, here is why they might in the future. When you hold down that button to get your message, you are glued. And that's a great time to throw in an ad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: CNN's Laurie Segall is here with me.

OK, first of all, I must be really old. What? This is for young ones, right, the youngsters?

SEGALL: A lot of teenagers are using this, lot of folks. I have tried it out, though. You know, it is kind of interesting. The message disappears. A lot of folks are using it, Don. I assure you.

LEMON: But $3 billion, that is a lot of money. Why would Facebook offer that kind of money and what happened with it?

SEGALL: Well, you know, what you said earlier, Facebook has a problem now. They are not signing on as many young users as they used to. Now, young users are what Facebook -- made Facebook essentially in the first place. So, Snapchat is the complete opposite. Snapchat only has this young user base. So, this is something they really are looking at, kind of putting out there. This is something they really want right now. So, they are willing to put down $3 billion, but I will say Snapchat did not take it.

LEMON: Yes, I saw it on the cover of "Wall Street Journal." It's probably everywhere, but.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Why didn't they do it?

SEGALL: Look, it blows your mind. How do you turn down $3 billion, right? Well, let me put this in perspective for you. About a year ago, Snapchat was offered a billion dollars from Facebook, allegedly and they turned it down. You know, now, fast forward a year, they are getting offer $3 billion. There's a certain thing about being the hottest company in Silicon Valley, you know. They are taking a gamble. They could turn it down and they can be irrelevant in the next couple of years. Or, you know, source tells me Google is also interested, and that could drive up the price.

So, when you are the hot company in Silicon Valley, it's a bit of a gambling game.

LEMON: Yes, because look at facebook?

SEGALL: Yes, Facebook. Yahoo! offers Facebook a billion dollars allegedly back in the day, and look what happened to Facebook, right? They didn't sell.

LEMON: Can you find some apps for us?

SEGALL: We used to come up with the great app idea.

LEMON: All right, thank you. Appreciate it, Laurie.

Moving on now, newborns known as storm babies are the tiniest victims of typhoon Haiyan. Some are just hours old. We are going to show you how doctors and families are doing all they can to keep the little ones alive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: In Libya today, a mass funeral for those who died in violent clashes in the last 24 hours.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

LEMON: The Libyan government says 43 people were killed and another 460 wounded in what they call the bloodiest day of fighting since the fall of Tripoli in 2011. Fighting broke out yesterday after protesters arrived at the Tripoli headquarters of Militias from the coastal city of Misrata. The Militia claims the protesters fired first.

It has been more than a week since super typhoon Haiyan destroyed parts of the Philippines and aid cruise are still picking up bodies off the street. And I need to warn you that some of these images that you are about to see are very graphic.

Families are guarding the dead as more cadaver bags arrive. The U.S. military has 9,000 troops on the ground delivering supplies and helping the injured. There are also relief coming from around the world. Places like Saudi Arabia, Israel and Australia. And as of right now, the official death toll, just over 3600 people. But that number is expected to grow, sadly. And then there's the tiniest victims of the storm, what are some are calling storm babies. Infants born immediately after the storm fighting for their lives.

CNN's Ivan Watson visited a hospital chapel that has become home for some of those families.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) pumps for dear life. Her newborn baby isn't breathing. And there's no incubator, no respirator and no electricity to power the machines to save this two-day-old baby's life. So her mother pumps oxygen by hand.

Baby Mustacisa is just one of 27 newborns here. Storm babies you could call them. All born after the typhoon. They are in a hospital chapel that was converted into a maternity ward after the storm destroyed this city.

(On camera): These tiny babies are in what doctors are calling the ICU, the neonatal intensive care unit. It's clearly improvised and they've been put here because their health situation is frighteningly unstable. In fact doctors say six infants have died in this chapel in the last six days.

(Voice-over): Dr. Leslie Rosario says some of these infants are too unstable to be Medevaced to a better hospital out of the storm zone.

(On camera): What do you need for the babies right now, most?

DR. LESLIE ROSARIO: Mostly now, mechanical ventilator specially for these babies and then suction machine, incubators for prematures.

WATSON: Tiny, fragile cocoons. This little girl was born just a few hours ago and she's six weeks premature.

During our visit, some good news. This little Sean James' health is stabilized and he graduates from the ICU to rejoin his mother.

(On camera): Is this your first son? How do you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy.

WATSON (voice-over): Doctors say most of the newborns here are healthy. But during what should be a moment of joy, parents also face uncertainty. Many have seen their homes destroyed so they rest amid the pews. While next to the altar, Dr. Rosario says baby Mustacisa's chances are not good.

ROSARIO: Right now the baby is really in a very poor condition. Critical condition so a poor prognosis for this baby.

WATSON: There is little Gina Mustacisa can do now but pray for her daughter's life.

(END VIDEOTAPE) DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Ivan Watson joins us now from the Philippines.

Ivan, very emotional story there. What are you seeing on the ground today?

WATSON: Well, and I do want to add to that story. We talked to a 16- year-old mother there hours after she'd given birth, Don. And she'd given birth to this premature baby, six weeks premature. And she had given birth, she'd gone into labor after walking hours from the ruins of her house to the airport to try to get a flight out of this shattered city -- we can give you a look over the city right now -- and failed to get on a flight out and then had to walk hours back after spending the night on the sidewalk next to the ruins of the airport, and then, went into labor she thinks because of the exertion that she went through.

A lot of people are trying to get out of the ruins of this city. There are more flights, there are more ships, even some of the roads have been opened up. But as you can see, the most vulnerable people, people who are pregnant, the elderly, people who are wounded, it's much harder for them to get out. And yesterday, sadly, we reported on a man who basically died because of the terrible infections he got as a result of a broken leg that went untreated for days and got terribly infected.

Doctors operated but they didn't have supplies of blood for the operation and they lost him. These are -- that was a stupid death and those are the types of things that the health care workers are dealing with in the ruins of this city right now -- Don.

LEMON: Ivan Watson reporting. Ivan, thank you very much. It's a terrible scene as you can see.

It's being reported by all of correspondents, tens of thousands of people homeless. Some hungry people surviving on coconut juice alone.

If you want to help typhoon survivors go to CNN.com/impact, CNN.com/impact for more information.

And I want to tell you this programming note for you. For our political fix, make sure you tune in CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" with Candy Crowley tomorrow. She has an exclusive interview with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tomorrow 9:00 Eastern here on CNN.

The way people are treated based on the color of their skin has been a controversial issue for centuries obviously. Now a new voice has been added to that debate. A columnist who says he hates being a black man. Straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: A Michigan homeowner who is accused of fatally shooting a 19- year-old woman has been charged with second degree murder. Renisha McBride who authorities say was intoxicated and possibly disoriented following a car crash was shot on a porch in Dearborn Heights on November 2nd.

Theodore Wafer told investigators he thought McBride was breaking into his home and that he accidentally discharged his shotgun. McBride was found dead with a large shotgun wound to her face.

And Jay-Z says he is keeping his partnership with the high end retailer Barney's. the hip-hop artist and entrepreneur had been criticized after Barney's was accused of racially profiling two black customers at its Manhattan flagship store. Jay-Z says he will sit down in a council set up by Barney's to deal with the issue of racial profiling. In a statement he said he is in a, quote, "unique position to affect change at Barney's."

We are going to talk about a controversial issue here right now, OK? So sit down and listen to this. I read this earlier in the week and was intrigued by it. A writer for "The Guardian" says he hates being a black man.

I want to read some quotes from Orville Lloyd Douglas. He writes, "I can honestly say I hate being a black male. I just don't fit into a neat category of the stereotypical views people have of black men. In popular culture, black men are recognized in three areas -- sports, crime and entertainment. I hate rap music, I hate most sports and I like listening to rock music such as P.J. Harvey."

I just want to bring in the author right now. His name is Orville Lloyd Douglas. He joins me in Toronto.

You know, I guess you can call it self-hatred. Who do you blame for your self-hatred?

ORVILLE LLOYD DOUGLAS, WRITER, THE GUARDIAN: I would say that I think it -- I think manifests from society. I would say.

LEMON: When I read -- when I read through all of that, and you're saying you hate being a black man, do you hate being a black man or do you just hate the stereotypes about black men?

DOUGLAS: I hate the stereotypes about black men. There's -- in pop culture, the stereotypical image of a black male is to be aggressive, is to be arrogant, is to not to be a nice person and I just feel like as though there are a lot of black males out there, such as myself, who don't conform to those sexist and racist stereotypes.

LEMON: Do you really not want to be black anymore? Is that what you're saying?

DOUGLAS: No. I'm not saying --

LEMON: If you could change it, if you could change it, would you change it to some other race? Would you be white? I mean, what are you saying here?

DOUGLAS: No. No, what I'm saying is that you have to remember that I wrote -- that I'm a Canadian, I'm not an American.

LEMON: Right.

DOUGLAS: And -- you have to remember that in Canada there are less than one million blacks in Canada. Canada is a very euro-centric country. I mean, the image of Canada had is hockey, (INAUDIBLE) beer, cold winters. You know, people -- but Canadians were really at the -- we're kind of like a marginal (INAUDIBLE) society. It's not like the United States where African-Americans make up 12 percent of the United States population and there's close to 40 million blacks in the United States.

The total population in Canada is only 33 million. So when you grow up in a country where you don't really see a lot of positive images about black people, it does affect you. And that's why -- that's where I'm coming from when I wrote the article.

LEMON: Gosh, I could talk to you all night because, in a way, I understand what you're saying about the stereotypes about being black, but shouldn't that push you to learn more about yourself and to love yourself more? I understand the stereotypes. And even coming from other black people, they expect you to be a certain way. Right? I mean, you don't fit into a category then all of a sudden you're not black, which is a bunch of bull. But wouldn't -- go on. Go on now, I will follow up.

DOUGLAS: OK. Well, what I wanted to say is that I think that this is just my perspective as a black Canadian, that some African-Americans have this perspective that they are the de facto black people of the world. And what African-Americans need to understand is that different -- in different countries black people experience blackness differently. And I think it's really -- I stress this because in Canada it's just so different.

And Canadians are very uncomfortable talking about race. I try to get this article published in a Canadian newspaper but I didn't get a response. In Canada we -- Canada has like this in gender this mythology that race -- that we don't have problems with racism. I actually think the United States is more progressive in a sense. In America, people are not afraid to talk about race. But in Canada, people are very uncomfortable talking about these kind of issues.

LEMON: OK. Why didn't you write an article saying, I love being a black man, but I hate the stereotypes about being a black man? Why did you say --

DOUGLAS: No, I'm definitely -- OK, I'm definitely conflicted. I'm definitely conflicted. I definitely am. Like that's why I wrote the article. I'm really being honest. I definitely am conflicted about certain things like I totally acknowledge that because I do have feelings of, you know, insecurities, of doubt, of not feeling like I'm good enough, and that's -- and I think I definitely acknowledge that in my article.

LEMON: OK. Fair enough. That's how you feel. I'm going to go on and read some other stuff from your column here. You say, "A lot of black men don't want to acknowledge the feelings of disgust we have for ourselves. I think my own self-hatred manifests from the exterior, from the outside world, it is born out of the despair and the unhappiness I see within a lot of young black men."

Explain that.

DOUGLAS: I'll say this. Like, in Toronto, for example, there's a real serious problem with gun violence. And a lot of young black men are dying. And sadly, in the city of Toronto, whenever black men are mentioned, it's -- usually it's not about something positive. It's usually something very negative. And what I'm saying is that it does affect the psyche. It does affect me.

And that's why I also quoted Franz Fanon, the author of book "Black Skin, White Mask." When I -- when talk about Fanon talking about how the black man is viewed in a third person, you're not viewed as three dimensional human being. And if you grow up in a country where there are hardly any positive images or representations of black men, and you see all these negativity, I think it does affect the psyche.

LEMON: OK, Orville. I'm going to spend more time with you than we thought. We're going get rid of some other stuff. And you and I are going to talk on the other side of the break. I want to get more from. And I'm actually going to tell the views, I'm going to step outside of my role as a journalist over here and I'm going to give you -- offer you some advice.

Orville, don't go anywhere. Viewers, don't go anywhere. We're going to talk on the other side of the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right, having a very intriguing conservation now. Let's get back to our guest now. Orville Lloyd Douglas, he wrote an article about why he hates being a black man.

OK, let's go on and talk a little bit more about this because you said that African-Americans think that they are the only people of color, black people, and it's -- everything should be defined through African-American and it's different in your country. People experience blackness differently.

Listen, a lot of African-Americans in this country probably did not know that. You probably taught a lot of people something. Why do you think your experience is different than African-Americans?

DOUGLAS: Well, I think my experience is different than African- Americans because my life experience is different. I mean -- African- Americans, I think, are very organized. You have organization of the NAACP, you have -- you have a black president, President Obama, in his second term. I mean that's very transformative regardless of what people think about Obama, it's incredible that a black man is the president of the United States.

LEMON: OK.

DOUGLAS: In Canada, we've never had a prime minister of color. And in the city of Toronto, the visible minority population is close to 50 percent, yet the city of Toronto has never had a mayor who's not white.

LEMON: OK. I --

(CROSSTALK)

DOUGLAS: The Canadian society --

LEMON: I understand what you're saying. And I was just there earlier in the year with one of our then executive producers of "BLACK IN AMERICA" Geraldine Moriba, talking on this very issue about being black in Canada and how it's in many ways different, in some ways the same as America.

I want to go on to say to you, though. Let's have a conversation here. So viewers, listen. What you're doing, regardless of what people say about you, because I know you're getting a lot of hate online. What you're doing is very brave. Whether I agree with you or not, or whether the viewers agree with you or not, you understand that by you saying this, you're going to make people talk, at least get them discussing this and probably change the minds. You get people thinking about it. But do you realize that you're very brave?

DOUGLAS: Yes. My sister --

(LAUGHTER)

My sister told me I was very brave. I've actually gotten e-mails from people telling me that they're really proud of me. I -- I also have to thank Heather Long, the assistant editor at "Guardian America." She's the one who agreed to publish my article. She really thought like I had important things to say so I have to really thank her for giving me the opportunity to write the piece.

LEMON: Yes.

DOUGLAS: As well.

LEMON: You -- but people want me to beat you up and say -- tell this man to sit down and that he is a self-hating black man. I don't know your experiences so I can't tell you that. What do you make of -- do you even hate to go online now?

DOUGLAS: No. It's intriguing. I'm fascinated by it. Because it's so strange to have people talk about you and say these nasty things. They don't -- they don't know anything about me. You know?

LEMON: Yes.

DOUGLAS: It's just -- it's a very weird feeling. Like last night, I went to an African-American Web site called Clutch. And it was -- the comments online were mixed. Some people were saying I'm this and I'm that. But as some people were saying that they kind of agreed with me. They said that some people, they're not listening to the nuances of my argument.

LEMON: Yes. (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That nuance is very important. And I understand exactly. And a lot of times people see the headline. If they see a headline that says "I hate being black" that's what they're going to take away from it because people read blurbs, headlines, sound bites. Right? And they don't get into the nuance of what you're saying.

DOUGLAS: Yes.

LEMON: I've been a victim of that, too, so I understand it. So let me give you some advice here. Don't let anyone define who you are. What is authentic, what is black for you whatever. You are who you are. Right? Don't let black people decide for you.

DOUGLAS: Yes.

LEMON: Don't let white people decide for you, don't let the news, don't let the headlines, don't let the negativity. I love being black. People accuse me of not being black enough or whatever that means. It's ridiculous. Be who you are. Love who you are. But you should actually learn to love being black.

You should take -- I tell kids and younger people all the time, take the negativity. Take the challenges in your life and turn them around to be your silent motivator. So find your blackness and what people are saying about you, criticizing you, and make that a motivator to be a better person.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Don't let other people define who you are.

DOUGLAS: I hear what you're saying.

LEMON: What do you -- what do you think of that? What do you make of that?

DOUGLAS: I hear what you're saying, I'm just saying like when I wrote the article, it's hard. You know, like -- like what I mentioned like sitting on a bus then people, you know, don't sit next to you. I mean, it's just -- it's just I definitely hear what you're saying. I'm saying that it's a struggle I'm dealing with. And I definitely will take what you are saying to heart because I really -- I just wanted to say thank you for giving me this opportunity to be able to speak and give my perspective.

And I just -- I really value your opinion. Because I really think that as a public figure, you have done so much for people such as myself.

LEMON: Yes. I just listen. Thank you. You didn't need to say that. But you should not -- again, don't let anyone define who you are. And get all of that other hate out of you. I want you to love yourself. I want you to love being black. I'm sure most people -- I want you to -- I'll continue to talk to you. I'll get your number and we'll talk offline. But again, you're very brave. And regardless of what it is that you're saying, whether people believe it's the right or the wrong, continue to be who you are. Be authentic and walk in your own truth. Thank you. OK?

DOUGLAS: Thank you very much, Don.

LEMON: All right. Appreciate it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: -- that disappeared in 2010 no longer missing. Not a happy development, though. Police yesterday uncovered the remains of a mom, a dad and their boys from a desert grave 100 miles from their home. Michael and Sunny McStay went missing with their sons in February, 2010. Not a sign of them, not a hint, not a clue emerged until yesterday. Police are combing the scene for any clue as to who might have killed them and why.

A horrible story out of Union County, North Carolina tonight. A deputy sheriff finds an 11-year-old boy handcuffed to the porch of a house with a dead chicken around his neck. Authorities removed five children from the home ranging in age from 8 to 14. Deputies arrested Dorian Lee Harper and Wanda Sue Larson, both 57 years old. Larson is actually a supervisor at the Union County Department of Social Services.

They are both facing charges of intentional child abuse, inflicting serious injury, false imprisonment and cruelty to animals.

Searchers may have found the body of a man who fell out of a small plane earlier this week. The pilot gave a mayday call after he said a passenger opened the door and just fell out. Officials are waiting on an autopsy to officially identify the body. Police are investigating whether the passenger fell out or jumped from the plane on purpose.

I'm Don Lemon. "ESCAPE FROM JONESTOWN" begins right now. Thanks a lot.