Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Moving Closer To A Deal With Iran; Two Incidents Trigger Panic At LAX; U.S. Veteran Held In North Korea; Airlines May Allow In-Flight Calls; JFK Approval Rating Still At 90 Percent; Spike Lee Wants Case Thrown Out; Man Blames Twin Brother For Crimes; Cruz Stands Ground On Obamacare
Aired November 23, 2013 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Here are the top stories we're following in the CNN NEWSROOM this hour. A historic nuclear agreement with Iran could be within reach. Key meetings are taking place now in Geneva. A live report is moments away.
Two different scares at Los Angeles International Airport, one prompted this response from police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground, everybody get down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: We'll tell you what triggered that show of force.
And phone calls 30,000 feet up in the sky? It could happen soon. I hear heated reaction coming up.
Talks on Iran's nuclear program appear to be moving closer to a deal. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met with Iran's foreign minister for an hour today after arriving in Switzerland early this morning. And it sounds like if there's going to be a deal, today is the day. Matthew chance is live in Geneva. So Matthew, what less than 12 hours to go to hammer something out?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, that's the time frame that we're working on, in the sense that the State Department have confirmed that John Kerry, Secretary of State, will be in London tomorrow to meet with the British foreign secretary, William Hague to talk about issues of Iran, of Syria, of the Middle East peace process, also meeting Libyan prime minister in London. So that's a fixed point.
What we also know is that P5PlusOne, John Kerry, other security foreign ministers in Germany are meeting to discuss the Iranian negotiating position, and so you get the feeling you're in the last stages at this point of these negotiations. Whether there's going to be a deal or not we still don't know. John Kerry saying the parties have never been as close as this in the past ten years, and that's how long the negotiations have been going on for to try and find a solution to the nuclear program in Iran to guarantee Iran won't get a nuclear bomb
They're very close, but can they narrow the gaps in the hours ahead? We just at this point don't have the answer to that. Expectations are really high. John Kerry has come in from Washington to attend these meetings, as have all of the other foreign ministers from China, Russia, Germany, France, and U.K. so expectations are high, but they're not there yet.
WHITFIELD: And if not today, then what?
CHANCE: Well, that's a good question. I mean, there is a sense in which if they can't forge an agreement after three rounds of negotiations in the past six weeks, what's the point of continuing negotiations? There are lots of voices already against the fact that these negotiations with Iran are taking place.
The Israelis one powerful voice and also voices in U.S. Congress as well. On the Iranian side, voices on the hard line there, should we be talking to the west about a deal? If there is no deal, those voices are inevitably going to get louder. Doesn't necessarily mean the end of the process, of course, but again, it is going to be harder if there's no deal this time.
WHITFIELD: All right, Matthew Chance, keep us posted from Geneva. Thank you.
Here state side, two separate scares at Los Angeles International Airport. Again, they took place around the same time last night, one taking place at Terminal 4, the other at Terminal 5. At Terminal 4, this is what happened. An apparent prank called to police caused this chaotic scene there, everyone evacuated. Authorities say it began when the caller reported a gunman at the airport and that prompted this response from police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody on the ground, everybody get down!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: So police evacuated the terminal as you saw in earlier images, didn't find anything suspicious then gave the all clear. Earlier just by moments at Terminal 5, an SUV crashed, triggering a panicked reaction from passengers inside, simply because of the sound of the impact.
Paul Vercammen is live for us now at LAX. There was no connection between the two incidents. What happened? Once people heard the impact of the vehicle, thinking it was something else, what happened after that?
PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: Well, what happened is after this minivan had a series of collisions and hit a parking structure, someone mistook those sounds for gunshots and shortly thereafter, that coupled with a report of a man with a gun in a nearby terminal shortly thereafter, police race in, guns drawn, clear the terminal. Tell people to get down, many of the passengers panicking as they watch body language of other passengers.
We talked to one woman that hid in a bathroom and then a family restroom where parents often change their babies' diapers. Let's listen to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF PATRICK GANNON, LAX POLICE: I think any time we have any incident that involves potential for gunfire or gun or anything at this airport, we treat it exactly the same way we would treat it before. Response to the officers was quick, decisive and I think what occurred was hypersensitivity to what occurred on the first that caused people to react in a way that they did. I don't want to -- I am not -- I don't have a problem with that, it just there are consequences to it, and I would rather be on the safe side than not take the appropriate actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERCAMMEN: That was the police chief at LAX, some passengers told us, including a woman from Australia who had been here on November 1st when of course a TSA agent was shot and killed, she said they took every measure of precaution possible, hiding themselves in case there was a gunman on the loose.
All these reports turned out to be false, but the impact on the airport, dramatic, 4,600 passengers impacted as either flights were delayed in taking off or landing, and then the effect on the streets around LAX absolutely almost unimaginable as we saw traffic stacked up all over again on the streets.
Again, many people thinking perhaps what had happened three weeks ago was going on again. We had frayed nerves. In two and a half hours, police got all of this under control and everything was flowing again freely as you see behind me. It is once again moving now. I should note, Fredricka, LAX by many web sites and accounts, the busiest domestic airport in America during Thanksgiving, some 2 million passengers will pass through here.
WHITFIELD: A very busy time. Nerves very frayed. We are glad everything is somewhat back to normal. Paul Vercammen, thank you so much. LAX and other airports across the country are getting more crowded by the minute because we are entering Thanksgiving holiday week and many travelers are facing a lot of weather challenges as well.
Parts of Oklahoma and Texas are getting hit this weekend by freezing rain, sleet and snow. You see it right there. The southwest is also dealing with nasty weather. Take a look at that taking place in Phoenix, Arizona, where roads are kind of flooded out. All of this rain, snow, and even ice is now moving east and will likely have a very negative impact on the thanksgiving holiday travel.
North Korea now has confirmed to Swedish diplomats that it is detaining an American citizen. The family of 85-year-old Korean War veteran Merrill Newman says the country has been holding him since October 26th. His wife is pleading for his release, saying he only had enough heart medicine for the ten day tour he was on. North Korea has not said why they're holding Newman.
A historic deal could be in sight on Iran's nuclear program. Foreign leaders are trying to hash out the final details. Coming up, why this deal could change so much and what it means to the U.S.
Next, talk while you fly. That is a proposal that airlines are thinking about. Could cell phone use on flights become a reality? Could it happen soon? We will have more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Airlines might be preparing for a big change soon, in flight cell phone calls. But there's mixed reaction to that news. Even the FCC chairman is divided over the proposal. He says he personally doesn't like it, but there's no technological basis for a ban. Alexandra Field has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A proposal to allow airline passengers to use cell phones in flight has travelers talking.
SHAF MUNIR, AIRLINE PASSENGER: You might want to talk the entire flight in a loud voice about your family, blah, blah, blah.
RICHARD SANDOMIR, AIRLINE PASSENGER: I don't have to listen to everybody chattering on the phone.
FIELD: It may not be long before we say so long to the idea of sitting back and relaxing. Some international airlines already allow passengers to talk and text. Now an FCC proposal would give American carriers the ability to do the same.
DIANE GELERICH, AIRLINE PASSENGER: I would allow the phone call as long as it is short and to the point. Otherwise, it is better that they don't use their cell phone.
FIELD: The Flight Attendants Union was against the idea when it was floated in 2004. They still are.
VEDA SHOOK, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: You know, airplanes fly thousands of feet in a metal tube in the air. We don't want any situation that could increase any ability to have a volatile situation.
FIELD: If given the option, it is already cleared, but some airlines are not on board. Delta says if the FCC changes the policy, will Delta allow voice communications on flights? No. It is a big opportunity for telecommunications companies. Service in the skies could have customers paying through the nose.
CRAIG AARON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, FREE PRESS: This is potentially a multibillion dollar industry for cell phone companies and device manufacturers. Once this ban is lifted, it is not like your regular phone will work perfectly. You will have to sign up for extra service or pay serious roaming charges, probably in excess of $2 per minute.
FIELD: Expensive, right? That's because experts say installing the new equipment on board could cost $3 million to $4 million per plane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Alexandra Field joining me from New York LaGuardia Airport. Alexandra, how soon before this could potentially happen?
FIELD: Fred, it won't happen before this holiday travel season. There are still a couple of steps that have to happen. The FCC is going to meet in December to discuss the proposal. After that, if approved, it would be up to individual airlines to decide whether or not to allow passengers to talk or text. Then antennas have to be installed. Plenty of time for people to talk it over -- Fred.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks so much. For now, let's enjoy the peace on the airline while in flight. Appreciate it, Alexandra Field.
All right, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry in Geneva, trying to stop Iran from building a nuclear weapon. Are leaders hopeful that there may be a crucial deal? I will get some perspective from Senator George Mitchell on what Kerry's trip really means.
But first, we're preparing our own holiday tradition with "CNN Heroes, An All-Star Tribute." It's a celebration of "Top Ten Heroes of The Year" and their work in helping others. This star studded gala airs next Sunday, December 1st, 8:00 p.m. Eastern. CNN entertainment correspondent Nischelle Turner gives us a behind the scenes peek at preparations for the big event.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, everybody, I am Nischelle Turner. I am going to give you a back stage look at what it takes to put this CNN Heroes award show together. You ready for this? This is going to be cool. Come with me.
(voice-over): This year we're back in New York, baby, at the American Museum of Natural History where the very first CNN Heroes took place seven years ago.
KELLY FLYNN, SENIOR EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, CNN HEROES: I can't believe it has been that long, we're thrilled to be back here, it is iconic and beautiful.
TURNER: The first stop of the night for the everyday heroes and celebrities, the red carpet.
(on camera): Wow. Look at it in here. Look at all of these lights. Work like this takes hundreds of people to set up, working around the clock.
(voice-over): And then the centerpiece of the evening.
(on camera): This year's CNN Heroes will be honored here in the Whale Room where one of the museum's biggest treasures will be watching over us all night, talking about this lady here.
(voice-over): But that's not all that has to be done to get ready for this special event, 51 tables to set up, nine cameras in place, and one giant video monitor.
JEFF KEPNES, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: You wouldn't believe what it takes to put something like this on. You know, we had two days to bring it in and set it all up.
TURNER: Transforming this beautiful room from this to this, all to honor ten everyday people who are changing the world.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, CNN'S "AC 360": It is a nice thing to honor these people, they don't get the limelight, don't get honored, don't have celebrities saying their names, praising their work. It is a nice thing for them, a nice pat on the back.
TURNER: A pat on the back from CNN and becomes a very special night of inspiration.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: A deal could be within reach on Iran's nuclear program. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry rushed to Switzerland last night, arrived early this morning, and went straight into talks. That's where he and other leaders, including Iran's foreign minister, have been almost nonstop today.
I am joined now by George Mitchell, former U.S. special envoy to the Middle East. Senator Mitchell, good to see you.
GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: Thank you, Fredricka. Nice to be here.
WHITFIELD: Excellent. How hopeful are you about this? Is this significant that John Kerry is in Geneva and directly involved in your view?
MITCHELL: It is significant. It's a very important issue and a critical moment. There are risks in every course of action in this, it is a very dangerous situation that could lead to conflict in the region and that could spread and include the United States. I think that Secretary Kerry is trying hard to get an agreement that will create a pause in Iran's activities during which time a long term agreement could be determined and agreed to.
The risk is, of course, given Iran's past history in which their actions are inconsistent with statements, that is the president and supreme leader of Iran have said that Iran does not seek nuclear weapons, but of course the problem is the government's actions have been inconsistent with those statements.
So the key is I think to have an agreement that is verifiable, and according to published reports, I don't have access to classified information. But according to published reports, a key part of this agreement is more intrusive inspections in Iran to make sure they keep these commitments.
WHITFIELD: When you talk about risk, are you talking about risks that come with this type of dialogue or risks that come if there is no deal and Iran can continue on with the nuclear program, building a nuclear weapon?
MITCHELL: There's a risk both ways. The risk that the critics emphasize of Secretary Kerry and President Obama is that Iran will simply use this as a way to accelerate the nuclear program and the sanctions, which are the principal reason Iran has come now, the effects of sanctions so severe within Iran that they're taking these steps that the sanctions will dissipate and not be able to put together again. That is a risk, a valid risk, one which must be considered.
On the other hand, if we don't proceed with this agreement and we're not able to get the, quote, perfect agreement that some of the critics want and it is unlikely that we'll be able to get that, then we could see a slide into conflict, which would be devastating for the region and for the United States.
So no course of action is free of risk, it is a balancing. I think the risk is that Secretary Kerry and the president are undertaking is worth the effort of the six months trying to see if they can work out a long term agreement.
WHITFIELD: And it was just under two weeks ago that France and Israel expressed their continued distrust of Iran, saying they don't think this is really a viable plan or even potential outcome, but in your view does Iran get some credit for at least having its foreign minister at the table coming closer than this country and these nations have ever come before in this kind of dialogue?
MITCHELL: I think the French criticism was of a specific provision of the agreement and I don't know whether or not the French foreign minister is there today, but that concern appears to have been dealt with. So they may be part of the coalition that includes the United States, United Kingdom, Germany and other countries that are allies.
I think the Iranian foreign minister is there because the Iranian people elected, hesitate to call him a moderate, the least extreme of the candidates, all of the candidates have to be approved before they can run. I think it is because of sanctions. They're having a devastating effect on Iran's economy and they have to do something to alleviate that.
I think what they're now being put to is the choice. Do they want to pursue this nuclear program at the risk that entails their economy or do they want to deal with, fall short of that, have nuclear power, nuclear energy for power, electricity, as many countries do around the world, and have a better life for their people.
WHITFIELD: Senator George Mitchell, always appreciate your perspective. Thanks so much. MITCHELL: Thank you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: Have a great holiday week as well.
It is a tweet that Spike Lee probably wishes he never sent. He is still fighting a court battle after he mistakenly tweeted the wrong address saying it was George Zimmerman's. Our legal guys tell us what's going on.
First, 50 years after his assassination, where do JFK's approval ratings stand today? We'll show you how he stacks up against other approval ratings of presidents past in the last half century.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: This week, of course, we mark the 50th anniversary of John F. Kennedy's assassination. But 50 years later, how does JFK's approval rating stack up compared to other former presidents? Kennedy's approval ratings actually stand at 90 percent. What do Americans think about his death? Roughly a third say either the CIA or mafia were involved in his assassination, and maybe more sinister, 21 percent actually think Kennedy's vice president, Lyndon Johnson, might have had something to do with his death.
Joining us now, Alan Lichtman, he is a presidential historian at the American University and co-author of the book, "FDR and The Jews." Good to see you, Professor. So much has been said this week about JFK, about Jackie, about that fateful day, November 22nd, in Dallas. But I feel like not enough has been said about that transition to LBJ.
What can you tell me or what are your views about that transition, that awkward moment, of course, of the swearing in with Jackie wearing the blood stained suit, and how this new now president had to also console a grieving widow, and at the same time try to maintain or continue on with the hope that was always associated with JFK.
ALAN LICHTMAN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: In the tragic flash of a moment, Lyndon Johnson went from holding an office that John Adams, previous vice president in the early republic had said was the most useless office in the history of the world, to suddenly becoming the most powerful leader of the world. And this was an absolutely delicate transition and Johnson wasn't known for his delicacy.
He was known for his crudeness and overbearing manner. Yet he handled it with exquisite graciousness. He was incredibly outgoing. He wrote letters to John F. Kennedy's children to be read later when they can understand it, made a condolence call to Kennedy's mother. He was incredibly generous to Jackie Kennedy, even offering to let her stay in the White House, and he overruled his Secret Service.
And he walked at the funeral of JFK and stayed in the background, something Lyndon Johnson rarely did, right after the funeral Jackie Kennedy actually wrote him a letter thanking him for how graciously he had dealt with everything and how she was glad, you know, to see that he had made this transition in such an extraordinary way. He also had to balance, you know, the idea, he was now the president, he was now in charge. That's why he got sworn in so quickly aboard Air Force One.
WHITFIELD: It happened now, not later returning to Washington. What was he worried about. Why did he feel it was important to do that at that moment, a very delicate moment?
LICHTMAN: It was an incredibly delicate moment, but felt he had to do it right then because he had to show the nation and the world that someone was in charge, that there wasn't a vacuum here at the top of the leadership of the world's greatest democracy. Yet at the same time he had to show that he wasn't kind of being an overbearing leader, just wiping out the legacy of john f. Kennedy.
That's when he made maybe the most important speech of his career, and one of the most important speeches in U.S. history, the "Let Us Continue" speech that he was going to continue the legacy of the great John F. Kennedy, and yet be a leader on his own, and that's exactly what he did in the year or so that he served out the term. You know, he cashed in on many Kennedy initiatives, most notably, the landmark civil rights act of 1964.
WHITFIELD: In a way not only did his image change but perhaps there was a hope that was restored because many have said hope died that day that JFK was assassinated.
LICHTMAN: Hope didn't die immediately. I think Lyndon Johnson did a remarkable job of restoring hope. I think hope began to dilate -- die later, when he made the mistake of escalating the conflict in Vietnam, but that came a little later. Back then, 75 percent of Americans had faith in their government, today only about 20 percent. That explains why Kennedy has 90 percent approval ratings because we look back at that time as a time when Americans came together and did have hope and optimism.
WHITFIELD: American University Professor Alan Lichtman, I always love talking to you. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
LICHTMAN: Thank you, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: Have a great holiday week as well.
LICHTMAN: You, too.
WHITFIELD: All right, this is what we're looking at straight ahead. On Sunday, Candy Crowley, host "STATE OF THE UNION" at 9:00 Eastern Time and "FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS" airs at 10 followed by "RELIABLE SOURCES" at 11. That's all tomorrow morning here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: All right, Film Director Spike Lee asking a federal judge to throw out a lawsuit by a Florida couple who says he put their lives in danger. That is because Lee mistakenly tweeted the couple's address after George Zimmerman who was accused in Trayvon Martin's murder and told his 240,000 Twitter followers that the address that he gave was Zimmerman's address.
Spike Lee did send out another tweet telling his Twitter followers that he had made a mistake and asked them to leave Elain and David McLane alone. But the McLane's say they still got hate mail and death threats and eventually had to move out of their home.
Lee's lawyers say the case should be thrown out because the director reached a $10,000 settlement with them in March. The McLanes say that's not enough to compensate for the mental anguish, anxiety and fear they're still dealing with.
Cautionary tale for the Twitter age now in the hands of a Florida judge. So let's bring in our legal guys. Joining me are Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor, and Richard Herman, a criminal defense attorney and law professor. Good to see both of you.
RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Fred.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, is this a situation where the McLane's thought $10,000, that's good, but now come to find out, you know, on second thought, maybe not, we want more?
HERMAN: Yes, they can want more, but there's a saying, you get one bite of the apple. You better make it a good bite and they took their bite. This judge will dismiss the case. These cases end with a release. In the release it says you are waiving your claims for anything up until this time of day. The date you sign that release, you've waived any and all claims you've had, not only claims but damages.
They get nothing here, Fred, but Spike Lee, his source material for the address came from one of his twitter followers. I mean, he is in a daze, like his movie, school daze. He is in stop tweeting stuff like this.
WHITFIELD: Avery?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, look, the fact is I think Richard may be right on this one because --
HERMAN: Maybe?
FRIEDMAN: We don't know what's in the release, which is very important. There may be a comprehensive waiver, in which case, case dismissed. If it is a limited waiver, the case may survive. At the end of the day, Spike Lee could probably do a movie about a director that screws up and gets himself in hot water because that's exactly what he did. We'll see in discovery if it was full or partial release. That will determine it.
WHITFIELD: Is it enough for the attorneys to say we want to pursue more? They're looking for a million dollars in damages, Avery. FRIEDMAN: Yes. I mean, it's stunning to me that this case would go forward, if there's a comprehensive release. If not, if you're in federal court, you have to represent to a federal judge the case is well founded in fact and well founded in law. If they don't meet those standards, that lawyer and the couple will be responsible for the costs of pursuing that federal case.
WHITFIELD: Richard?
HERMAN: Fred, there will be no discovery in this case, there will be nothing in this case, it's over. The release will release spike lee from all claims. These people are trying to bring a sympathetic lawsuit. It's not going to fly. It's going to be dismissed. Spike lee had attorneys. The form, the basic law form you have the client sign on a release says you waive all claims.
WHITFIELD: Seems once you cash the check, you have said we agreed to the terms, right?
HERMAN: It is over. It is over! There's nothing here, case will be dismissed.
WHITFIELD: OK, we shall see what happens next. Avery, Richard, case not over with you. We've got more stuff to talk about, including a situation that could be the plot of a movie, a decorated military officer accused of terrible crimes. Prosecutors say the evidence is there, but I'll tell you why the man wants his own brother to be named now a suspect.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: All right, it sounds like something out of a soap opera. A decorated army officer is blaming his identical twin after he is accused of sex crimes against girls, and a judge just ruled that Aaron Lucas can name his twin brother, Brian, as a potential suspect. Miguel Marquez has details of this bizarre case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is brother versus brother, identical twins. Aaron Lucas, decorated Army officer, charged with trying to lure 11 girls between 6 and 9 years old into his vehicle and sexually assaulting three of them, all this while on active duty at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any questions, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, your honor.
MARQUEZ: DNA now linking him to alleged sex crimes in two other states, but Aaron Lucas says his identical brother, Brian, is to blame for some or all of the crimes. DNA was taken from Aaron Lucas when he was arrested last year, sample posted to a national database linked him to unsolved sex crimes in Madison, Alabama and Texarkana, Texas.
There is, however, one possible exception. Identical twins have virtually identical DNA. Both brothers lived in Alabama and Texas. Brian says he's never been to Colorado Springs and law enforcement agencies in Alabama, Texas and Colorado say Aaron Lucas remains the focus of their investigations.
Defense attorneys say beyond the DNA evidence, one victim described the assailant as driving a Black Acura sedan, a car similar to that own by his twin brother, Brian. The defense says another witness identified a different man all together as her assailant. All evidence the judge says a jury can now hear.
Still unclear whether Brian Lucas will be compelled to appear in a Colorado court in a case expected to start in January. Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Wow, that's one fascinating case. The defense possibly involving the so-called evil twin, will it work? Our legal guys are back, Avery Friedman and Richard Herman. Avery, let me begin with you. You heard Miguel say the DNA may be identical. You have eyewitness accounts. One believes he saw a vehicle that's similar to that of Brian's. What is this going to boil down to? It simply can't be based on DNA evidence, but what might break this case?
FRIEDMAN: That's right. Well, I mean, I guess you said maybe we can make a movie out of this one, that's true. Here you've got Aaron Lucas in Colorado Springs where the crimes took place. Brian says I was in the back room in a different state. How in the world is Aaron going to compel his brother to come to Colorado Springs as an alibi witness?
It seems preposterous. Just because one of the victims found that there was a black sedan, I mean, who knows what the heck that is. I don't understand this defense. I think it is creative. I don't think it is going absolutely anywhere, and this trial is starting in a little over a month. I don't know what Aaron is going to do in this case.
WHITFIELD: Richard, how do you see it. Brian the brother being blamed by Aaron has not been charged.
HERMAN: Fred, can you imagine thanksgiving this year with the family, the two brothers going against each other? I don't know.
WHITFIELD: Not going to happen.
HERMAN: Look, the judge made a determination.
FRIEDMAN: Probably not going to make it.
WHITFIELD: I am only kidding. The judge made a determination he can argue this to the jury and it is a pretty powerful argument if you think about it. You need to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury. If the DNA from his brother matches and they bring up the victim says she saw a black car and he didn't have a black car, but his brother Brian did have a black car, you start to raise certain doubts in the case.
Now, I think law enforcement has it a little tighter than this, but eyewitness testimony can definitely be rocked, Fred, and these victims are going to have to get up there, and they're young women, they're going to have to get up there and testify precisely to an identification and if there's any hesitancy there, don't be surprised if you see a hung jury.
WHITFIELD: So I wonder if this is a situation where circumstantial evidence and based on character, eyewitness accounts describing these two gentlemen as individuals and then maybe even their relationship and the jurors will have to deduct then who seems like the potential suspect, removing all this hard evidence because they're identical. Avery, this is potentially really messy.
FRIEDMAN: Well, I mean, think about this, Fredricka. The defense lawyer says look it, we're going to bring Brian in to show that there's a legitimate alibi, it wasn't us. It seems like a preposterous defense and I just can't understand how any jury looking at the facts here are going to think that's a reasonable alibi, just doesn't make any sense to me. I think Aaron is just in a world of trouble here.
WHITFIELD: OK, are we leaving it there, Richard?
HERMAN: It is not a preposterous defense, it is a very creative defense and it might just work in this case, if this jury gets hung up in the scientific explanations in the DNA. You could see a couple jurors go off that direction. This is a very interesting case to watch, Fred. We have to follow-up on this one.
WHITFIELD: I think we have to, too. It can go so many different directions.
HERMAN: Absolutely.
WHITFIELD: Avery, Richard, good to see you gentlemen.
HERMAN: Happy Thanksgiving.
WHITFIELD: Yes, happy Thanksgiving.
All right, thanks so much, guys. Appreciate it. You can catch the legal guys here this time around every Saturday in this hour. Always tackling the most intriguing legal cases of the day, week, month, you name it. They're the ones. Thanks so much, Richard, Avery.
It is no secret. Republican Senator Ted Cruz is not a fan of the president or the president's health care plan. Is he doing anything to fix the health care scenario? Our Chris Cuomo asked him that very question. Don't miss his answers next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: There have been countless debates over the Affordable Care Act and the rollout of the Obamacare web site. This week, freshman Senator Ted Cruz, a central figure in the effort to end Obamacare got into exchange with CNN's Chris Cuomo over how he would reform health care. Here is that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: You know, three-and-a-half years ago reasonable minds perhaps could have differed on whether Obamacare would work. Today that's not possible in my view, coming together to stop Obamacare is the essence of pragmatism because it is self-evident this isn't working. Nobody is defending it and the reasonable common sense thing to do is simply to start over and say this is killing jobs and over 5 million people are losing health insurance, premiums skyrocketing across the country, this isn't working, let's start over.
CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": How can we say it is not working when it is not implemented. How can you say premiums are skyrocketing when they haven't put the plans into effect yet? You're being dangerous with political spin that's so central to the well- being of so many families?
CRUZ: I appreciate the adjective you toss my way. John Adams famously said facts are stubborn things. Here are some facts. About 100,000 people have signed up, gotten new insurance under Obama care. About 5 million people have lost their insurance because of Obamacare. Those are facts. And those are real people that can't be spun away.
When I go back to Texas, I travel the state and I see people all the time who come up to me, men and women across Texas and they grab me by the shoulder and they're afraid. They say Ted, you know, I just lost my health insurance, I have a child with diabetes. I need my health insurance. I'm scared. Please stop this from happening. Those are real facts.
CUOMO: What do you say to them, Senator? When they say please help me, what is the fix that you offer them? I looked at the list of bills you sponsored. There's not one that offers a solution to the current problems with health care, except to get rid of the existing law. Is that enough?
CRUZ: Well, that's the only solution that will work. All of these band aid fixes the Democrats are pushing won't fix the problems. Every bill, they have great titles, if you like your plan, you can really, really, really keep them. But if they were passed into law, it wouldn't fix the problem for 5 million that lost their health insurance, they wouldn't get it back.
CUOMO: You don't think the way to have responsibility as a U.S. senator to do better than that in terms of offering a solution what to do next?
CRUZ: Well, I appreciate your trying to lecture me in the morning, thank you for that.
CUOMO: Not at all, Senator, I am worried, the same as you, anybody that looks at the situation has worries, families need health insurance. CRUZ: If you're worried, did you speak out for the 5 million that lost their health insurance?
CUOMO: We have been covering it doggedly. I am sure you watch the show. The problem is I don't have the power to fix it, you do. That's what a senator does, you sponsor law. You know this, it is not a lecture, it is a concern. I am asking what are you going to do about it?
CRUZ: And I share that concern and have every day been working to highlight the millions of people that lost their job because of Obamacare, the millions that have been forced into part-time work, there are single moms, young people, Hispanics, African-Americans, people that are struggling who are now on part-time work. You can't feed your kids with 29 hours a week.
There are over 5 million people that lost their health insurance and the way to fix that is to stop this broken law. It was broken at the outset and all of the bills that have been proposed by the Democrats, they're designed to be political band aids. Their effort is to cover their political rear ends, not to fix the problem, and the common sense reasonable thing to say is this thing isn't working.
Now, in addition to that, you want a positive affirmative solution. Single best thing we can do is expand competition. Let people purchase health insurance across state lines. If you want to expand access, what you want to do is increase choices and drive down costs. What Obamacare does is decreases choices and drives up cost. It doesn't make sense and it isn't working. I would like to see something that empowers consumers, not Washington bureaucrats.
CUOMO: Those are strong ideas that need to be developed as plans. We haven't really heard them in a great way, that's what people are waiting for, what are the better ideas. You do also have to think how do you deal with problems of the system as it existed before, pre- existing conditions, caps on service, slow walking of claims, that the insurers had too much power. That was a big part of what the law was about, not to mention the 20 must million uninsured people. You can't forget about all of that, Senator, can you?
CRUZ: I am not remotely for getting about that, but the trade off in this plan was in order to cover roughly 15 million to 20 million people who don't have insurance, which is about a third of the population that doesn't have insurance, what Obamacare does is it jeopardizes the health care of 200 million Americans that do have health care, and it is a trade off that Obama made. The 5 million that lost their health insurance is just the first shoe to drop.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
