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Mandela: Hero Now, Hated For Years; CNN Gets Behind-The-Scenes Look From A Commuter Train Operator; Willie Nelson Cancels His SeaWorld Show

Aired December 06, 2013 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN. Bottom of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Talking today about Nelson Mandela. He is a beloved hero to so many around the world. But five years ago, he was still on America's terror watch list. For years, Mandela faced serious criticism for embracing armed violence in his battle against apartheid. Mandela shocked the world when he hugged -- look at this, Cuba's communist leader, Fidel Castro, onstage. This was back in 1991.

Now let me show this, these are two magazine covers of Nelson Mandela published after his death. First on the left, you see a happy, smiling, older, wiser Mandela. This is "Time" magazine.

On the right, an illustration of a younger Mandela on the "New Yorker" cover, raising his arm, a passionate protester there. Nelson Mandela embraced so many different ideologies in his 95 years on earth. A peace broker, a warrior, let's make a deal versus let's stir things up, an idealistic fighter, a pragmatic negotiator.

I want to bring in Princeton University historian, Julian Zelizer, who joins us, and Robert Franklin, Morehouse president emeritus and senior adviser to the president now at Emory University. So gentlemen, welcome to you.

And Julian, first to you, and before we talk, I wanted to quote this great piece out of the "Daily Beast" this morning from Peter Beinart. This is this opinion piece. Quote, "Now that he, Nelson Mandela, now that he's dead and can cause no more trouble, Nelson Mandela is being mourned across the ideological spectrum as a saint, but not long ago in Washington's highest circles, he was considered an enemy of the United State. Unless we remember why, we won't truly honor his legacy."

So let's talk about the why. Let's begin in the '80s. What was it about Ronald Reagan? He saw Mandela as such as threat. Why?

JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Well, by the '70s and '80s he was seen as a threat in two different ways. The first was that he had been involved in an organization that had supported aggressive tactics to end apartheid. It had been deemed a terrorist organization by the South African government and some Americans picked up on that.

And the second was the accusation that he had received money from communists to support his causes. So this overwhelmed the actual cause that he was struggling for and became a source of controversy during the '80s.

BALDWIN: Dr. Franklin, last time I saw you, you had come back from South Africa this summer, and you had sort of paid your respects in a sense over the summer when you were there, but as part of the education world, I'm curious if you worry at all that our college classrooms and secondary education will sanitize a little bit of Nelson Mandela's story, not tell the full picture.

ROBERT FRANKLIN, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, MOREHOUSE COLLEGE: I hope not. I hope the college professors and administrators will insist that we tell the whole story. We don't have to idolize Nelson Mandela. We can present him as the fully-fleshed human being with all of his noble qualities and his flaws. I think the interesting thing that he illustrates is moral leaders often go to places that are unlikely, and unexpected.

They develop relationships. They initiate conversations. That upset the equilibrium in order to produce justice, in order to catalyze change. I think that's what today's millennials, the college students around the country are interested in, authentic moral leaders who keep it real.

BALDWIN: Talk about upsetting people. Julian, back to you, talking about during the Bush administration in 2003 when Nelson Mandela made that statement in regard to the Iraq war. As he said, President Bush has romanticized justifications as far as why the U.S. was involved. He said, all he, being President Bush, all he wants is Iraq oil. So how did Washington -- how did that relationship evolve then with Nelson Mandela?

ZELIZER: Well, there were two sides to it. He was extremely critical of President Bush in the Iraq war, and then obviously this angered the Bush administration. He also was very supportive and praising of the aids initiative in Africa, which was one of President Bush's biggest measures. I think that thawed some of the relationships over time, and Mandela made some more favorable statements even though he remained highly critical of Iraq. That is the complexity of him in modern times, as he was always complex in earlier times, but always with the pursuit of racial justice as a guiding motive for his career and his life.

BALDWIN: And Dr. Franklin, so many people are remembering this man, but there are the younger generation. They say, apartheid, what's the apartheid? How would you explain to people in their teens, their 20s, that the struggle, the hate, that Nelson Mandela fought against?

FRANKLIN: Apartheid was the most vicious, extreme form of race-based, color-based segregation that one can imagine. And Nelson Mandela went to prison for over 25 years protesting that system, and together with movements of people around the world, black, white, and every background and religious identity, came together to struggle against and ultimately dismantle that system. I have to say that Nelson Mandela admired Atlanta a great deal. He came here in the '90s.

BALDWIN: He did.

FRANKLIN: Visited my alma mater, Morehouse.

BALDWIN: Honorary degree.

FRANKLIN: Many universities participated in that wonderful process. One of the things Mandela admired was the role of business leaders in Atlanta, forging new partnerships between black and white, Hispanic and Asian. He admired the Coca-Cola Corporation, the moral leadership in Atlanta from Dr. King and Andy Young. He admired the education community, the Atlanta University Center, Emory and other places. He said Atlanta has leadership, and South Africans need to model themselves on what they see happening here and other places in the states.

BALDWIN: We will talk more about Dr. King. We're talking to Bernice King next hour. She'll be here in studio so she can certainly share in some of those memories she has with this incredible man. Robert Franklin, thank you very much and Julian Zelizer, my thanks to you here as well.

Coming up, the draw for positioning in the 2014 World Cup happening today, where did Team USA land? We will explain that to you, the significance coming up.

Also ahead, we will talk to the man, Willie Nelson. But we're talking about how a change.org petition caused him to cancel one of his shows and how killer whales figure into all of this. Don't miss this conversation with Willie Nelson live. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And now to some of the hottest stories in a flash. Rapid fire, roll it.

It was draw day in Brazil for next summer's World Cup. The U.S. men's soccer team better be up for revenge. They were drawn into the so- called group of death. They were arguably face the three hardest teams in the tournament. You have Germany, Portugal, and Ghana. Ghana, you remember, knocked the U.S. out during the 2010 World Cup. That is the very team the U.S. men going to be playing in their opening match in June.

Jay-Z just struck his first deal as a sports agent. This is the third largest, by the way, in the history of baseball. Yankees star Robinson Cano reportedly signing a 10-year contract with the Seattle Mariners worth $240 million. The Mariners, by the way, haven't reached the playoffs since George W. Bush's first year in office. Ouch.

Take a look at this, terrifying video. A Boeing 777 trying to land at an airport in the U.K., but powerful winds forced it sideways before going back up in the air. We're told the gusts hit 50 miles per hour, and passengers -- look at it going back up. Passengers on the plane watched the whole thing on live television as they were sitting on their seats. The plane tried landing twice before diverting to another airport.

And just days after that train derailed in New York, killing four people, we've heard the words like highway hypnosis and in a daze, when it comes to that operator. Even though we still don't know exactly what happened in those crucial moments before that crash, CNN's Chris Frates gets a behind the scenes look in the front of a commuter train.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As passengers rushed through their morning commute, Engineer Jeff Klein scales 12 feet into this locomotive and gets ready to take responsibility for hundreds of people's lives. With a throttle and two brakes, Klein alone controls this 1 million pound behemoth in his three-hour run. And he's got a lot on his mind.

(on camera): What were you watching coming out of the station?

JEFF KLEIN, LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEER, METRO: Signals, crossings, crossing protection, the gates, pedestrians, speedometer.

FRATES (voice-over): Piloting a seven-car train 100 miles through 18 suburban Chicago stations, Klein has to be able to divide his attention among signals, sounds, and safety.

(on camera): About how fast are we going?

KLEIN: It's 60 miles per hour.

FRATES: And how long would it take to stop?

KLEIN: Controlled stop, like coming into a station, probably take about four tenths of a mile.

FRATES (voice-over): That would take almost a full minute. Then there's the dead man pedal, designed to stop the train if the engineer is unresponsive.

KLEIN: That was the dead man pedal. If you move your foot off it just the wrong way, it going to start to sound that sound you heard, and then it will stop the train.

FRATES: To get the feeling of what it's like to control the rolling caravans, we headed to MODOC Railroad Academy and talked to Instructor David Rangel.

DAVID RANGEL, FOUNDER, MODOC RAILROAD ACADEMY: Today, the passenger locomotive engineer is being asked to do so much ever than before. He's asked to do the job of two or three people. This is the cab of the locomotive.

FRATES: But there's something no amount of training can prepare an engineer for, fatigue. RANGEL: We're dealing with humans in the cabs of those locomotives, and we have frailties.

FRATES: Back on the rails, making the return trip to Chicago, Klein says he's got too much to worry about to be distracted.

KLEIN: Again, there's always something going on. The alerter is going off. Everything that's happening in front of you, it's -- for me, it's not real easy to lose concentration.

FRATES: And now he'll grab some rest before doing it all over again in just a few hours.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRATES: Every day, hundreds of engineers are traveling on thousands of miles of track. And driving a train is a lot like playing chess. You have to think several moves ahead. Only, you have to do it at 70 miles per hour. Chris Frates, CNN, Chicago.

BALDWIN: Chris Frates, thank you very much.

Coming up here, the man, the legend, Mr. Willie Nelson, he has just cancelled a gig at SeaWorld in Orlando after hearing about the CNN film "Blackfish" on killer whales in captivity. We'll talk to him. I will ask him why he pulled out of the park, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Music legend Willie Nelson definitely known for making music, using music to make a statement. Now he's sending a message by not singing. Nelson is canceling a February performance set for SeaWorld, Orlando and this decision comes after this petition showed up on change.org. We have been checking it today. More than 9,000 people have signed it, asking Willie Nelson to not sing at SeaWorld because of the revelations from the CNN film "Blackfish."

That's the documentary that traces 39 years of killer whales in captivity leading up to a SeaWorld orca killing its trainer in 2010. Willie Nelson is on the phone with me now. Willie, thanks for calling in. I appreciate you very much. This is what SeaWorld told us, Willie, that scheduling conflicts led to you canceling your show. I want you to tell me, why are you canceling that gig?

WILLIE NELSON, COUNTRY MUSIC STAR, CANCELS SEAWORLD SHOW (via telephone): Well, as you said earlier, I had a lot of calls from people asking me to cancel. I understand there are petitions going around with thousands of people's names on it, so you know, I had to cancel. I think also, I don't agree with the way their treat their animals. So it wasn't that hard a deal for me to cancel.

BALDWIN: Tell me about that. Tell me about how you feel of the notion of these animals, these whales, being held in captivity and performing for audiences? Does that bother you?

NELSON: I feel the same way about all animals in the zoo. I have been to zoos where the monkey in the zoo, I don't blame him for wanting to throw stuff at you. All that stuff is hard on animals. It's cruel, and I understand there are some natural habitat zoos out there, which is probably OK. What they do at SeaWorld is not OK.

BALDWIN: Willie, I know you've got grandkids. Have you ever been to SeaWorld, taken the kids to SeaWorld before?

NELSON: No, I haven't, but I also have -- I had one of those petitions was from one of my great grandkids, who had about 250 names of people she knew asking me not to play the venue.

BALDWIN: Wow, great grand kid. What was SeaWorld's response to you because it was a couple days ago we learned the Bare Naked Ladies pulled out for the same reasons. SeaWorld offered to them, come to our facility. Let us show you a tour. We would like to show you that nothing nefarious is happening. Is there anything, Willie nelson, SeaWorld could do or say to you to change your mind?

WILSON: No, not really. I've already been convinced this is not -- you know, I don't want to play there and it's the end of the story.

BALDWIN: End of the story. Willie Nelson, thank you so much for calling in. I appreciate it.

NELSON: Thank you, Brooke. It's good talking to you.

BALDWIN: Good talking to you, as always.

Coming up here, just in to us at here at CNN, a new twist in the heist of a truck carrying radioactive material, the suspects have been on the loose, but here's the twist. Six people are now sitting in a hospital for radiation exposure.

Plus, nearly a week after Paul Walker's tragic accident, word of an arrest involving the scene where he died. Stay with me. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We celebrated just remarkable individuals working to help others. Our top ten "CNN Heroes of 2013," and this Sunday, we follow 2010 CNN Hero Dan Walrath as he continues to build futures for wounded veterans struggling to create new lives after military service. "Operation Finally Home," a CNN Hero special presentation airs this Sunday at 8:00 Eastern, and here's a sneak peek.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are over 50,000 wounded veterans we have now. One of the biggest challenges is transitioning from military life to civilian life. I have my good days, my bad. At first, there were a lot more bad than there were good. I can't change what happened.

If I could wish everything back, I would. But I can't, so why let it get me down? I'm 24. I want to be able to live by myself and to be able to do everything I need to do by myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I built custom homes for 30 years. Back in 2005, I did my first remodel for a wounded veteran. God put a passion in my heart to help these families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This apartment that I live in, it's not set up for my needs. The doors aren't as wide as they should be. The bathroom isn't as big as it should be. Some of the shelves are too high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, these young men and women need a lot of help. Unfortunately, I don't know how to help in a lot of areas, but I do know how to build a home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of bugs me at night when I go to sleep. It's like, well, what's next, is the big question. To me, what's next is getting a house, going to school and finding a career. Everything is kind of on hold right now until I get a place that is mine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Temperatures across the U.S. plunge as this monster ice storm puts millions at risk. I'm Brooke Baldwin. The news is now. As the world mourns an icon, the daughter of Martin Luther King Jr. joins me live on what Nelson Mandela meant to her.

Plus, Ted Cruz compliments Mandela on his Facebook page, but his followers aren't too happy.

Caught on video, powerful winds force a plane to go sideways while trying to land.

And just days after Paul Walker's tragic accident, an arrest is made involving the scene of his death.

Hour two, I'm Brooke Baldwin. We begin with this dangerous, deadly winter storm affecting millions of you across the country today. This freezing storm for Sunday's Dallas marathon to be cancelled a short time ago. Much of the storm moved out of the area, but 250,000 are still without power there. And now this chilling storm is expected to spread to New York, causing even more flight cancellations there and dangerous driving conditions.

Look at this. Not easy at all. Three people have in fact been killed in car accidents in both Oklahoma and Texas, as a result of this system. And in Arkansas, a man died after a tree fell on his camper during the freezing rain. Back to Dallas, where Ed Lavandera is standing by. We also have today Jennifer Grey in the Severe Weather Center.

But Ed, to you first, this is a huge deal. Just news that they are canceling this marathon, has it ever been cancelled there?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Dallas marathon has never been cancelled. That was supposed to take place on Sunday. There's a holiday parade, the Children's Medical Center holiday parade, which is another institution event here in Dallas as well. That was supposed to happening tomorrow or on Saturday, that has also been cancelled for the first time in its history.

So this storm, even though the rain has stopped, what we're left with, with the remnants of this storm, it will last for several days. We have been spending a lot of time driving around the Dallas area today. The good news is that most people have stayed off the roadways. And the conditions on the road, I found them not to be absolutely horrible, and they were very dangerous.

There have been a lot of people on the roads it would have been really treacherous. But for the most part, many businesses and schools have closed for the day. That has kept a lot of people off the roadways. A lot of slush is what I found on the roads. The problem is the temperatures are below freezing, expected to stay that way for some time. That will allow that slush to refreeze.

So the roads are really going to be something to watch for over the next couple of days. That will take some time to get back to normal. This storm, the weather is incredibly cold and is really kind of changing plans for a lot of people over the next couple days.

BALDWIN: So history made, canceling the Dallas marathon for the first time. I can't imagine running on the streets, looking at those pictures. Ed Lavandera, thank you. Jennifer Gray, to you, because we're talking not just one but two storm systems here at play.

(WEATHER UPDATE)