Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

NSA Says Snowden Took 1.7 Million Documents; Boston Bomber Heard Voices, Received No Treatment; N.M. Teacher Told Boy Couldn't Dress as Santa; Playgrounds Built in Memory of Newtown

Aired December 16, 2013 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: 1.7 million documents, that's how much information Edward Snowden reportedly took from the NSA files to Hong Kong and then on to Russia. The man leading the Snowden task force for the NSA spoke to CBS' "60 Minutes" about how it was done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER, 60 MINUTES: Did he take everything he had access to, or was he a careful shopper?

RICK LEDGETT, DIRECTOR, NSA SNOWDEN TASK FORCE: He did something that we call "scraping," where he went out and just used tools to scrape information from web sites and put it into a place where he could download it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Joining us now is our national security analyst, Fran Townsend, a member of the CIA and Department of Homeland Security external advisory board.

It's hard to believe 1.7 million documents stolen, the vast majority have not yet been released. Only a few thousand documents have been released. And the NSA is claiming that if all of them are released, these are the crown jewels of the U.S. How significant potentially would the release of all those documents be?

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Oh, Wolf, tremendously. We've seen the damage already done by the release of documents related to the PRISM program, is the metadata program. This has been an incredibly painful period. You realize he didn't steal these one at a time? Not like he had to cut and paste each document. He used these advanced tools to go into the system as an administrator and basically vacuum it up quickly. But that begs the question, how could somebody do that, even with system administrative privileges, and not trigger sort of internal watchdogs as to why he was doing it.

BLITZER: As far as you know, Fran, and you know a lot, has anybody been fired inside the NSA or any other government agency for Edward Snowden's being able to do what he did?

TOWNSEND: Not that I'm aware of, Wolf. I will tell you, as you listen to the interview last night of General Alexander, who spoke in greater detail than we've heard before, this was really a systemic failure. The sort of controls were not in place that would have permitted them to understand the breadth and scope of what Snowden was taking and to prevent it in time. So I think it's being viewed as a systemic failure, which means there's not a single individual you can hold accountable.

BLITZER: Has General Alexander, who's the head of the NSA, or any other top official offered to resign as far as you know?

TOWNSEND: Yes. General Alexander's been pretty clear that he went to the White House and did offer his resignation. But understandably, look, in the midst of this crisis, what you need are people who understand the system well enough to help the president and White House fix it. So General Alexander was told no, we're not going to accept your resignation. He's a career Army officer, very accomplished and well respected. We need you at your job as the head of cyber command to fix this problem, get to the bottom of it and fix it, and he agreed to do that.

BLITZER: Many intelligence experts have told me, Fran, they believe that whatever documents Snowden has, either the Russians or the Chinese, where he's been holed up -- he's holed up in Russia right now -- almost certainly already have had access to all those documents. Do you believe that?

TOWNSEND: Absolutely. I mean, I think it's difficult -- it's going to be difficult for the intelligence community to confirm that. But the right thing to do in terms of this damage assessment is if they can't confirm it for certain, this he have to presume that these documents have been compromised. After all, we know Russia was not excited about granting Snowden asylum and there may, for all we know, have been some quid pro quo. He was in Hong Kong and met with Chinese officials. Look, we have to assume that whatever he had access to, that's what he used to buy his safety.

BLITZER: So if the Russians and/or the Chinese already have all these documents, what would be the damage to the U.S.? Those are potential adversaries of the U.S. What would be the damage if all those documents were released?

TOWNSEND: What we know from administration and intelligence community officials is that those documents basically set forth our collection priorities for electronic and other intelligence methods and it also sets forth what our gasp are, what our vulnerabilities are, what we're looking for. If you get all of that -- if you're China or Iran and you understand what we're looking for, what we don't know, how we're looking for it, and what our collection priorities are, you begin to sort of adjust yourself and your communications to try and work around that. And so it makes it all the more difficult on high-priority targets to actually collect valuable intelligence.

BLITZER: One final question. So would you support giving Snowden amnesty for coming back to the United States and not releasing all those documents? TOWNSEND: Absolutely not. Look, this is like, you know, negotiating with an armed hostage taker. The fact of the matter is he took what he took. He's already shared it. Whether or not it becomes public, we have to do the damage assessment and sort of plan for the potential release. But you cannot allow someone to steal this kind of information at a tremendous harm to the United States and then use that to negotiate his own asylum. It just encourages more bad behavior by people with access to classified information.

BLITZER: Fran Townsend, thanks very much.

TOWNSEND: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: A few other notes on the NSA. President Obama has promised a full review of intelligence protocols. Changes are expected to be announced very soon, presumably this week, we're told, about what those changes will be. We'll stand by for that announcement.

Major tech companies also have asked the NSA to stand down in collecting some of this information. They say it could hurt their bottom line.

Finally, "60 Minutes" is coming under criticism for the interviews inside the NSA. Those critics are suggesting it was a public- relations move by the NSA and the government to try to put a better face on the NSA after this huge, huge debacle. CBS acknowledged that, to a certain degree, in saying that the NSA Chief Keith Alexander thought the NSA had done a poor job of getting its message out. That's why they were willing to go ahead and cooperate with "60 Minutes" on this story last night.

We'll have a lot more on that story coming up in "THE SITUATION ROOM" later today, 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

Inside the mind of an accused terrorist. We're learning that one of the alleged Boston bombers may have been hearing voices and wasn't given the mental help he needed. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A 17-year-old girl shot at a Colorado high school Friday is in a coma right now. Claire Davis' family says she's in critical but stable condition. Police say she was probably just a random victim in the shooting. They say the 18-year-old gunman was trying to get to a librarian before shooting himself. Investigators have wrapped up their work and plan to release the school back to the district soon. Classes at Arapahoe High School won't start again until after the New Year.

Instead of enjoying her honeymoon, a new bride instead is planning her husband's funeral. The newlyweds just left their wedding reception in Crown Point, Indiana. As they drove away, they spotted a car in a ditch and stopped to help. Unfortunately, an oncoming car struck and killed him, and the woman he was helping, as they stood on the side of the road. Police say alcohol did not appear to be a factor. What a tragic sad story. Driven by voices, that's the claim in an investigation by "the Boston Globe" about accused Boston Marathon bomber, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.

Brian Todd is joining us right now.

Brian, the report suggests he was hearing voices that he may have had a mental illness. What's going on?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: First indications of this from "The Globe's" investigation that he possibly did have some mental illness. "The Globe" spoke to a doctor who was a family friend, who had had conversations with a psychiatrist who had actually treated Tamerlan Tsarnaev's parents. The doctor, who is a family friend, speculated to "The Globe" that he thought Tamerlan might have had schizophrenia. The psychiatrist who treated his parents but did not treat Tamerlan Tsarnaev, told "The Globe," or at least said, at some point, that he believed that Tamerlan Tsarnaev has some kind of paranoia. "The Globe" is now reporting, quoting friends and others as saying Tamerlan Tsarnaev started hearing a voice in his head as a young man and that it continued later on.

One man who went to the mosque with him was quoted as saying, "He was torn between those twos people, whatever was in his head and the persona he was in real life."

First indications from this "Globe" investigation, Wolf, that maybe, maybe there might have been mental illness there.

BLITZER: What about the links to the organized terror groups in Russia or elsewhere?

TODD: According to this investigation, "The Globe" didn't find strong links to that. What they're saying, from what they're putting together, that the Boston Marathon bombing might have been the result more of the Tsarnaev family breaking apart as a family, and the series of failures these twos brothers experienced. That was more their kind of, you know, just their life experiences that led to the Boston Marathon bombing rather than any Islamic radicalization, because one of the reporters, who dug into that, didn't find much evidence of radicalization. But there were a series of failures. And we, ourselves, have reported a series of family failures and a series of personal failures on Tamerlan Tsarnaev's part. He didn't make the Olympic boxing team. He was arrested in 2009 for slapping a girlfriend. He had financial problems. All of those things we have been reporting on. "The Boston Globe" reporting on other tidbits in their lives that leads them to conclude this was more a result of personal failures rather than any radicalization that may have led to the bombings.

BLITZER: The older brother who died.

TODD: That's right.

BLITZER: The younger brother survived. What about him? Did he will have any mental illness problems? No indication he was suffering from schizophrenia? TODD: Nothing like that. But what "The Globe" is now quoting anonymous friends and acquaintances of the younger brother, saying he sold marijuana at the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth, that he sometimes made about $1,000 a week, that he was known as a marijuana seller there, and that he sometimes carried a gun to protect his supply of marijuana. That is according to "The Boston Globe." That's new information we found in this investigation that "The Globe" had in its report that we had not seen before, the evidence that he sold marijuana. We have you called the U.S. attorney's office in Massachusetts and his attorneys and we have not gotten comment.

BLITZER: All right. We'll see what else you come up.

Thanks, Brian.

Brian Todd, reporting.

A teacher's racial insensitivity turns an African-American student sour on Christmas. According to the teacher, only white people can be dressed as Santa. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A high school teacher in New Mexico has been disciplined for ridiculing an African-American student dressed as Santa Claus. The teacher reportedly told the ninth grader he couldn't dress as Santa because he was of the wrong skin color. The boy was crushed by the teacher's remark, and now his family wants the teacher fired.

Our George Howell has been digging into the story for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL ROCHE (ph), FATHER OF CHRISTOPHER: This is the hat and the beard, fake beard, that Christopher was wearing to school.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The spirit of Christmas was all but shattered for a New Mexico high school student who wore this Santa mask to class and was challenged by a teacher who told him he couldn't be Santa because --

ROCHE (ph): Santa Claus is white. What are you doing wearing that?

HOWELL: Chris's father, Michael Roche (ph), called the school's principal, furious, saying he heard about it from another parent. His son didn't tell him because he was too embarrassed. Initially, this parent said his outrage was dismissed.

ROCHE (ph): The principal hung up the phone on me and hasn't called back, hasn't said anything.

HOWELL: Michael Roche (ph) tells our affiliate the only phone call he's received was from the teacher who spoke to his wife and apologized.

The Rio Rancho School District put out this statement saying, quote, "He self reported the incident to the principal and has apologized to the student and the student's parents. Appropriate disciplinary actions have been taken."

The incident comes the same week that FOX News host, Megyn Kelly, said on the air that both Santa and Jesus were white.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS HOST: And by the way, for all your kids watching at home, Santa just is white but this person is arguing that maybe we should also have a black Santa.

HOWELL: Comments that sparked a fire storm of criticism. She later issued a statement saying her comments were misunderstood.

DR. JEFFREY GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST; I think the criticism is need because we all know that Santa Claus, of course, is a symbol, a symbol of hope, a symbol of the holidays, a symbol of love and giving.

HOWELL: Clinical psychologist Dr. Jeffrey Gardere.

(on camera): When a child hears comments like that from Megyn Kelly or from a teacher who puts his opinion out there like we heard in New Mexico, what does it do to the child's self image?

GARDERE: It begins to erode that child's self-image. We are a society that says we are all equal and we can all participate in something that is generic as Santa Claus.

HOWELL: The teacher still works at Cleveland High School. But we've learned Christopher has been removed from his class after what happened.

His father says he really wants nothing to do with Christmas this year. Michael says the teacher should be fired.

ROCHE (ph): For him to make a comment like that, there has to be, at a minimum, prejudice in him. And we don't have room for that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWELL: The teacher's name has not yet been released. And it's still unclear, Wolf, exactly what type of disciplinary actions were taken at the school.

BLITZER: Thanks very much, George. George Howell reporting for us.

Up next, a story of building hope. How volunteers are building more than two dozen play grounds all in the memory of the Newtown shooting victims.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A year after the Newtown, Connecticut, shootings, there's something special happening. A group is building playgrounds to honor the victims and inspire hope around the country.

Tom Foreman shows us this in this "American Journey." (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the Atlantic coast, a labor of love. A playground rising in memory of the children and staff members killed at Sandy Hook School.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is playground number 11.

FOREMAN: There will be 26, each to commemorate one life lost, and all with a purpose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We learned in Mississippi that a playground is more than just a structure. It's a symbol of hope and recovery.

FOREMAN: Indeed, this effort was born amid stormy days. When Katrina ravaged the south, firefighters from New Jersey, who received letters from gulf coast kids after 9/11, went down to build playgrounds to return the favor. Then Superstorm Sandy and the Sandy Hook shootings battered the northeast. And they thought, let's do it again closer to home. So the Sandy Ground Project was born, shepherded by the New Jersey Firefighters Mutual Benevolent Association.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His favorite color was blue-green, so that's why the teal.

(SHOUTING)

FOREMAN: The effort has brought together donors, volunteers, and victims' families.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you on?

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

FOREMAN: Like Mark and Jackie Barden, who lost their son, Daniel.

MARK BARDEN, FATHER OF DANIEL: All kids love playgrounds, but Daniel did have a special thing for playgrounds. He would get in, didn't know the kids, and start playing with them and get a game going.

CARLOS SOTO, FATHER OF VICTORIA SOTO: The pink is for the flamingoes she loved.

FOREMAN: Carlos Soto lost his 27-year-old daughter, Victoria, a teacher.

SOTO: And every playground we build, she's looking down where her students, saying this is a beautiful thing.

FOREMAN: In the end, that is what this is all about, wrestling against events of unspeakable ugliness to find beauty, happiness, and hope once again.

Tom Foreman, CNN. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Secretary of State John Kerry has gone back to the waterways of Vietnam. 44 years ago, he was patrolling them as a young naval officer. This time, he's there to deliver a message about the growing threat of climate change. Water levels along the delta are dropping, threatening people in downstream Cambodia and Vietnam. Secretary Kerry is also talking with government officials in Hanoi about releasing political prisoners.

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back, 5:00 p.m. Eastern, in "THE SITUATION ROOM." I'm Wolf Blitzer, in Washington.

NEWSROOM continues right now with Brooke Baldwin.