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NSA Leaker Snowden To Brazil: I'll Swap You Spying Help For Political Asylum; Obama's "Worst Year In Washington"; Jordan Mansion Doesn't Sell At Auction

Aired December 17, 2013 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Is NSA leaker Edward Snowden a criminal or is he a hero? His supporters say the ruling by a federal judge vindicates him and Snowden agrees. The judge saying the NSA collection of phone records that Snowden revealed is likely illegal, likely unconstitutional.

All of this happening as Snowden again tries to get out of Russia, penning this open letter to Brazil, offering to help the government investigate allegations of U.S. spying with whatever it is he knows, but on one condition, that he be granted permanent political asylum.

Joining me now, Buck Sexton, the national security editor at the blaze.com and a former CIA analyst and Paul Callan, a CNN legal analyst, so nice to see both of you, Gentlemen, here today.

Buck, let me just begin with you here. If this were to happen, this offer in this open letter to Brazil, is this whistleblowing, is this blackmail?

BUCK SEXTON, NATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, "THEBLAZE.COM": Well, the story is kind of unfinished right now because there is really, you have to parse this into two separate entities. One is the domestic revelations, what's happening within the U.S. that's what we saw the judge ruling on yesterday and that's very important. I think that's the debate that the American people should be having and I think in that sense it's been very helpful. All of the stuff outside of U.S. borders, however, as soon as he starts talking about what's going on -

BALDWIN: We don't know what that could be.

SEXTON: We don't know what it is yet. That could be incredibly damaging stuff. That's a sort of thing that the espionage laws and the treason actually exist to prevent. So you really have to look at it as sort of two pieces of the puzzle right now and in terms of Brazil, my understanding is that offer has been -- rather they've been trying to get that going for some time. The open letter has just come to -- you know, we've seen it today, but it's been around for a while.

BALDWIN: Do you think the fact that he is even saying, Brazil, I'm willing to give you x, y, and z, if you give me asylum. Given the fact that we heard on "60 Minutes," for a very high up and a state person saying, you know, maybe asylum in the United States. Do you he is thinking now that's probably not going to happen, maybe I'll go south?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think he's playing his options here. He obviously knows that he's in possession of very valuable information that has a lot of people seriously worried at the NSA. So worried that some of them are saying we have to make a deal with this guy to get the stuff back. But I think he's hedging his bets and trying to look for another place to land if the United States says no to a deal.

BALDWIN: It's a question I'm asking over and over because I think it's incredibly valid when it comes to -- here he is in the eyes of a criminal, facing felony charges of espionage in the United States. If in fact he's granted asylum, be it United States or in Brazil, what kind of precedent do you think it set for all these other people, government workers, who say, if I have my fingers on this information, I won't get in trouble.

SEXTON: It's something of a shock as somebody who has had to sign the papers and hold up his hand for the oath myself. I can tell you that they take any kind of disclosure incredibly seriously, much more -- I mean, not even the same stratosphere of disclosure as we're talking about with Snowden. They take them very seriously. Serious criminal charges can often follow suit.

So when you look at what the precedent is that this would set for Snowden, if he were to be given amnesty in this one context, it would invite I think in my mind at least people to do more things in the future. Now are there going to be a lot of people who want to go to China and then Russia, and risk the ire of the U.S. government?

It's not going to be an everyday kind of a thing, but it does set something up that I think in the future could be problematic for other espionage prosecutions. Is anybody who comes up with documents that could be extra constitutional, unconstitutional? Do they then get to say, well, I didn't violate federal law? He's clearly violated the law, so it's a question of whether or not --

CALLAN: But you know, he's the functional equivalent in the intelligence community of a mass murderer in terms of criminal law. I say that because the amount of information that he has allegedly disclosed --

BALDWIN: It's 1.7 million documents.

CALLAN: -- it could make him the greatest traitor to the United States in American history depending up what's there. NSA is certainly saying he has the ability to compromise intelligence gathering operations all over the world. So do you want to make a deal with him, give him a slap on the wrist and bring him back? It's a really, really hard decision.

BALDWIN: So how does President Obama handle this? How do you think?

SEXTON: President Obama, I think they have to continue with charges. Quite honestly, I don't think they're going to be able to come up with some kind of a deal. I think Snowden is going to end up getting permanent asylum status somewhere whether it's Brazil or Russia. He's going to live out his days outside the United States. He'll be something of a global celebrity. I don't think he's going to come back to the U.S. though and be a homeland celebrity, if you will, I don't that's going to happen for him anytime soon.

And again, we don't know what the documents are. If he has what they believe he has, if it's stashed away somewhere, if foreign governments have not been able to penetrate what he has, which is another open question, we would just hope that they will never get access to that because it could be incredibly damaging. If it is what people think it is, I don't even want to know what would happen to the U.S. going down the line.

CALLAN: You know, it's all about leverage. The Obama administration looks at this, they are going to say, what does he have, and how badly could it hurt us?

BALDWIN: That's why I opened the way I did. Leverage, blackmail, whatever you want to call it.

CALLAN: If he's got the goods to kill us abroad, to destroy intelligence operations, to compromise agents in the field, they're going to do a deal with him. As distasteful as it is, they may have to. I mean, prosecutors every day offer immunity to organized crime people to get another person and to save something. You know something, that's what they're looking at right now.

BALDWIN: Paul Callan and Buck Sexton, guys, thank you very much. Fascinating discussion. We'll see where it goes next, where he goes next.

Now this, recent turmoil in North Korea has not put a kink in Dennis Rodman's travel plans. The former NBA player on his way to Pyongyang as part of what he calls basketball diplomacy. North Korean basketball players are being trained for a game against a team of former NBA players set to be played next month in North Korea.

Now, it is unclear if he going to be meeting with Kim Jong-Un, although it is likely since the two have met in the past. Meanwhile, the North Korean leader marked the second anniversary of his father's death today. During the ceremony, Kim Jong-Un sat front and center below the image of his father. The anniversary comes one week after public announcement of the execution of his uncle.

Michael Jordan has been rejected, not on the court, but in an attempt to auction off his Chicago mansion. I'm talking to the tune of some $21 million. Does it help or hurt when a homeowner is a celebrity? We'll look into the inside world here, the inner dealings in selling a multimillion dollar home.

And safe to say it has been a tough, tough year for President Obama. Popularity numbers, look at all these polls are plunging. What has hurt him the most? A lot of options to choose from. We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: You might have heard this a time or two or three, 2013, the first year of the president's second term in office has been pretty rough. You've had the domestic spying disclosures, a drag on recovery, plus the health care rollout debacle. Today, we are now seeing a poll that matches his record low approval rating. You see the number, 43 percent, down 11 points this year.

Gloria Borger, chief political analyst, joining me now. We looked under the hood of the poll. This is by "The Washington Post" and ABC News. This is what really stands out. Let me show everyone. On protecting the middle class, one year ago Obama was hammering D.C. Republicans. If you look at the now column on the left side, only 6 percent more pick the president over Republicans for backing the middle class. What, Gloria Borger, does that say to you?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's a real problem for the president. I mean, as you point out, Brooke, he's up over the Republicans, but he's losing some of his base. I mean, you know, this is the president's bread and butter. This is one of the reasons he won re-election. When you looked at Barack Obama versus Mitt Romney, it was who cares about my problems, who's better able to understand me, who's going to protect the middle class.

I think part of what we've seen because of the bad rollout of the Affordable Care Act and the fact that while there's been some good economic news. It hasn't really trickled down to Main Street yet. Lots of people don't feel it and they have a sense that they're being squeezed and that health care wasn't what they had hoped for.

So you see these numbers taking a dive. He can rescue it if the affordable care act starts performing properly and if people start feeling an economic recovery I would argue. But right now it's pretty dicey for him.

BALDWIN: And honestly, Gloria, the poll shows the president's gained back a couple of points after the plunge from the, you know, keep your own insurance pledge, which we talked about many, many times. But whether he's honest and trustworthy, he's down. He's down six points from last year. You talk about how he could bounce back, maybe depending on how the rollout improves. What about trustworthiness? How does he turn that around?

BORGER: Well, that's -- you know, and that's the big problem. People kind of give up on you if they believe that you're not telling them the truth, Brooke, if they think you have no credibility and also if they don't think you're competent. It's hard enough --

BALDWIN: It's a big deal.

BORGER: It's a huge deal and it's hard enough for a president in the sixth year of his presidency because people kind of start moving on to the next thing and particularly if they don't trust you. And that was what the president always had again -- you know, looking back at the last election. He's got to get his credibility back and the problem is -- and we don't know how this is going to turn out, OK. But the problem is, you know, the pledge, if you like your health care, you can keep it, that's what affects his credibility. And the question is whether this turns into the problem that it was for Bush 41 when he said read my lips, no new taxes. And then he raised taxes. People in his own party turned on him. We don't know yet whether you can keep your health care pledge going to turn into that yet.

BALDWIN: All right, Gloria Borger, thank you very much.

And what if you have been a winner all your life, but no one wants to buy your house? Michael Jordan, MJ, 23 here, put his home up for auction, but no one wanted to pay the minimum bid. Coming up next, someone very familiar with the world of top dollar real estate, we'll talk to us about what it's like to work with and sell the homes of the rich and the famous.

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BALDWIN: NBA hall of famer basketball great Michael Jordan used to winning, but he's no slam dunk in the real estate market apparently because he's been trying to sell his nine-bedroom Chicago mansion for two years and he's just not getting any pick up here, 56,000 square feet. Let me say that again, 56,000 square foot home in Chicago's Highland Park went on the auction block yesterday.

Look at this. It's pristine. It's beautiful and it's not cheap. He originally listed the home for $29 million but dropped it to 21. The auction reserve was actually much lower, but no one wanted to pay that. The plush 7.5-acre state has an NBA-size basketball course, a putting green, a pool pavilion. Jordan's love of cars, that's legendary. So this place comes equipped with three garages that can house up to 14 cars.

You got to have 14 cars to fill this thing up. I don't know who has 14 cars. Jordan says he's selling because his kids are grown, doesn't need quite a substantial home. But why isn't the place selling?

Let's talk about this with "Forbes" magazine's staff writer, Erin Carlvle. Erin, what's the deal? No curb appeal? It looks kind of lovely to me. I don't have that kind of change lying around, but why isn't this selling, you think?

ERIN CARLVLE, STAFF WRITER, "FORBES": Well, first of all, thanks for having me. Michael Jordan shouldn't take it personally. I spoke with one of my sources out in Los Angeles who deals in a lot of celebrity homes. He told me that people do tend to pay a premium for a celebrity home, and someone like Michael Jordan certainly could get that. The issue, though, is the price. Maybe if the home is priced at $10 million, a celeb might get $10.5, but they're certainly not going to get $20 million for a $10 million home.

BALDWIN: So is that what it is? It's just like a little too high, north of 20? But I'm no real estate connoisseur, but is that what it should approximately appraise at when you look at everything that's offered and just the sheer size? CARLVLE: Well, that's a good question. You know, the bottom line is the house probably is overpriced. The auction price -- I don't actually know what the reserve price was, but the way the auction works is when there's a reserve, there's a minimum bid. The fact it isn't sell means no one wanted to pay that price, the minimum bid. When you look at the local market, the next highest priced home in the area is only $1.25 million. So at 21, Michael Jordan's property is one of a kind in the neighborhood.

BALDWIN: Maybe if he tossed in the 14 cars to go in the 14-car garage you got a deal. I don't really know, but it's Michael Jordan. We'll see. That's a lot of money for sure. Erin Carlvle, "Forbes" magazine, thank you so much for joining me. We'll follow it up and see who has that kind of money and can buy.

Coming up, a bucket list for everyone, see what happened when an artist invited just anyone to come out, fill out this chalkboard of final wishes in life, the bucket list.

Plus, we'll talk about some video that really speaks for itself. A crack smoking mayor walks into a gospel choir. Not the beginning of a joke here.

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BALDWIN: Now to some of the hottest stories in a flash, rapid fire. Roll it. All right, take a look at this with me. See the guy in the tie on the right? Does he look familiar? Yes, the guy in the tie, the dark coat here, Rob Ford. You know him, Toronto Mayor Rob Ford. What to say? Maybe he wasn't kidding about his whole come to Jesus moment because this is Rob Ford Sunday in a church in Toronto. I don't have to tell you. You know about his recent substance abuse issues. There he is dancing with a gospel choir.

Heart-stopping moment at an airport in Poland, watch the left side of your screen. A dad places his baby on the luggage counter, looks away to repack his bag, and it's in that moment the baby, there it goes, falls off the table. A quick-thinking security guard dives into the rescue, catches the child inches from the floor. According to reports, the officer received a bonus for his quick hands. As for the dad, he's got to feel bad about himself.

There's one Syracuse warehouse where people are actually encouraged to share their innermost thoughts, innermost goals on a bucket list. New York affiliate, WSYR reports the owner of the Gear Factory turned this 170-foot long wall into this living chalkboard. You see people writing different things. Thousands have stopped by to write down the answer to one simple question emblazoned on the wall. What would you want to do before you die?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK DESTITO, THE GEAR FACTORY: It's a really great example of like the power of public art and what that can do.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: The public art display is a huge hit. WSYR also reports already more than 400 walls like this all around the world.