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Taliban Attacks; Edward Snowden's Christmas Message; Hundreds of Gay Couples Marry in Utah; U.S. Marines on Standby Near South Sudan

Aired December 25, 2013 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): In the CNN NEWSROOM: Taliban rockets shake a U.S. Embassy's Christmas peace.

Also:

EDWARD SNOWDEN, LEAKED DETAILS OF U.S. SURVEILLANCE: A child born today will grow up with no conception of privacy at all.

BASH: A most unusual Christmas greeting from the leaker who touched off the NSA spying scandal.

Plus, today's new surprise from the pope, a Christmas olive branch to atheists.

POPE FRANCIS, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): I also invite those who not believe to desire peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Thank you for joining us. I'm Dana Bash in Washington.

Explosions shattered the predawn quiet at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul on this Christmas Day. The embassy says it was hit by two rounds of indirect fire. That usually means rockets or mortars. The embassy reports there were no casualties.

The Taliban issued a claim of responsibility.

Let's get more from CNN foreign affairs reporter Elise Labott.

And, Elise, this is the same Taliban that the United States went to war with Afghanistan towards because of what happened on 9/11, because of the attacks here. We have been at war with them for 12 years now. And the Taliban is still able to hit the U.S. Embassy there? I think for people watching at home, they're going to be saying, huh? Are you kidding me? What's this war been all about?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're right, Dana. This comes at a pivotal time for the U.S. in Afghanistan. The U.S. trying to finalize its security pact with Afghanistan to keep some troops in after the end of 2014, to train the Afghan army and police, because they aren't strong enough yet. And attacks like this show security is still a challenge and the Afghans can't handle it 100 percent on their own. This isn't some hinterland province like Helmand. This is the capital, Kabul, the heart of the country, and 13 years after the U.S. went into Afghanistan, the Taliban are showing they're still able to carry out an attack. It makes you wonder how much stronger it is, the country, now that we're winding down.

BASH: It certainly does. Never mind the fact that 2,300 Americans have lost their lives in the dozen years, troops, at least, that this war has gone on.

Meanwhile, Afghanistan is going to head to the polls next year. President Karzai will not be on the ballot. Given the low level of trust between the U.S. and Afghanistan, what do you think? Do you think that the country will elect a leader even less friendly to the U.S. than President Karzai has been in recent years?

LABOTT: Well, you're right. The relationship with Karzai is as fraught as ever. They want him to sign this pact so they can make plans to move forward. In some ways, Karzai is irrelevant. Everyone is looking toward the election supposed to take place in April.

Who's going to replace him? I think people realize they need a positive relationship with the United States. It's an open question, how his successor, whoever it is, is going to deal with the U.S., and more importantly, what influence the U.S. will have in the country.

BASH: Now let's turn to Egypt, where jihadists, the groups there took responsibility for twin bombings in the country today.

The government there, the cabinet declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. Now, this is the same Muslim Brotherhood that was swept out of power by a coup earlier this year, the same organization that the U.S. was dealing with in a diplomatic way. Now they have been declared a terrorist organization. How is the U.S. responding to this?

LABOTT: Well, nothing on this latest move about branding them a terrorist organization. But clearly the U.S. has been concerned with the ongoing crackdown of the Muslim Brotherhood since the president ousted President Morsi this summer.

You saw this with their withholding of some aid. It's very significant. For the first time in a decade it makes it illegal to be even a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. It's looking for people to denounce their membership, and it effectively shuts the Muslim Brotherhood down. It's the exact opposite direction of where the U.S. hoped the Egyptian government would be. They wanted to bring the Muslim Brotherhood and be part of the dialogue, because, as you said, they still have an important role in the country.

BASH: Elise, thank you very much. President Obama is learning, like President Bush did, that democracy is not always a pretty thing. You don't always get what you want.

LABOTT: Exactly.

BASH: Thank you very much, Elise.

And in Iraq, a car bomb exploded outside a Baghdad church as worshipers left a Christmas service. At least 27 people died there, and dozens more were wounded. Another car bomb ripped through an outdoor market frequented by Christians, killing 11 people.

The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad says the bombings are the latest in a series of deliberate attacks on Iraq's Christian community.

NSA leaker Edward Snowden took to the British airwaves today for a rare televised statement. In the alternative Christmas message, Snowden spoke out against government surveillance, advocating for more privacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SNOWDEN: Together, we can find a better balance, end mass surveillance, and remind the government that if it really wants to know how we feel, asking is always cheaper than spying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Joining me now is Glenn Greenwald, the investigative journalist who broke the Snowden leak story. He's now with the newly forming First Look Media.

Now, Glenn, you're one of the few people who knows Snowden, got to know him very well before all this came out on your Web site. You have had contact with him. What do you think is the message that he was trying to get across, and what's your take on it?

GLENN GREENWALD, FIRST LOOK MEDIA: Well, from the beginning, he's always felt an obligation to account to the public for what it is that he did and why he did it. He didn't want to be in the spotlight, which is why he stayed off television for six months, because he wanted the focus to be on the NSA, but he does feel an obligation to answer the public.

And what he essentially wanted to say is that in a democracy, it is vital that we know the most important and most profoundly consequential acts that the government is engaging in. And he stepped forward in order to inform people about what was taking place so that they can make the choice about what kind of state they want to live in.

BASH: In an interview with "The Washington Post" that was published on Christmas Eve, he said basically mission accomplished, because what he did not only revealed the secret program, which he says tramples on privacy, but also it stirred an international debate on mass surveillance, which was his goal.

And his message today was somewhat similar. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SNOWDEN: The conversation occurring today will determine the amount of trust we can place both in the technology that surrounds us and the government that regulates it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, you have been part of this mission. Do you agree, mission accomplished?

GREENWALD: I think it's getting there. I mean, I think there's been a lot of misinformation disseminated about Edward Snowden, which is typical whenever someone embarrasses the highest level of the United States government, about what his motive is, he's trying to hurt the United States.

He's a patriot, not only of the United States, but of people's rights in general, which is why when he came to us, he said I'm giving you all this information. I don't want you to just publish it all without looking at it. I want you to very carefully vet it so that the only information that is published is information that people ought to know, but not ever putting innocent lives at risk, so that we (AUDIO GAP) wanted to have.

BASH: Now, Glenn, you still have more information that you have not yet disclosed, which you just referred to. Do you plan to release more information? Is there more out there that you think is appropriate or necessary to release, or do you think given what he said, mission accomplished, that enough is enough?

GREENWALD: Oh, no.

As a journalist, my mission is to publish all of the newsworthy items that I have in my possession that have been given to me by my source. I know "The New York Times," "The Guardian," "Washington Post," ProPublica, all of which have thousands of documents, also continue -- intend to continue to report on this.

There are a lot of huge stories left to publish and left to report that the American people ought to know about. And, of course, as a journalist, my mission is to tell people what they ought to know that's in the public interest.

BASH: You seem to be doing it in a very tactical, strategic way, kind of in a drip, drip, drip way also to almost release this information at a time where it could do maximum damage.

Can you give a little teaser? Are you going to continue to do that? Is there something that we should be bracing for around the corner, without obviously as a journalist giving up the scoop that you may or may not have?

GREENWALD: Yes, I don't know where you got the premise of your question from that we time the stories to inflict maximum damage. That's absolutely false.

These documents are incredibly complex. They take a long time to report. You have got to consult with experts. You have got to piece them together. And the process that we're engaged in, and all the news organizations that have documents are engaging in is the same, which is, we're working every single day month after month as hard as we can.

And as soon as the stories are ready, we publish them, consistent with making sure that what we're reporting is accurate and reliable. And that's what we're going to continue to do. But there's definitely big stories and more stories coming and coming soon.

BASH: OK. Well, that's a teaser.

Glenn Greenwald, thank you very much. Happy holidays. Enjoy Rio.

GREENWALD: Same to you.

BASH: I want to bring in Harvard Law Professor Alan Dershowitz to get his reaction to those comments.

And, Professor, we're going to have you on and brought you on to talk about a completely different subject, but I know that you have some thoughts on this from a legal perspective.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "THE CASE FOR MORAL CLARITY: ISRAEL, HAMAS AND GAZA": Well, Snowden says it's always better to ask than to spy.

My response would be, it's always better to ask than to reveal secrets, some of which may have a negative effect on the national security of the United States. There's no reason why Snowden couldn't have gone to the House Intelligence Committee, the Senate Intelligence Committee and said, look, there is this horrible program that the NSA is conducting.

I'm not going to tell you what is in the confidential material. I'm not going to release it, because that would be a crime. And that would endanger the national security of the United States. But I want you and the Americans to know that this program is being conducted, and then leave it to responsible legislatures to respond.

His taking the law into his own hands clearly is a crime. It may be a crime that served some bigger interests. But let him not make the excuse that he had no alternative. He had an alternative, to reveal it to the proper authorities first. If that didn't work, then maybe he could engage in civil disobedience. But civil disobedience should always be a last resort, not a first resort.

BASH: But I'm sure you know this, Professor Dershowitz, that the Intelligence Committees did know. In fact, there were two Democratic senators who sit on that committee, Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, who were very engaged in trying to stop this internally.

And they also felt hamstrung because they couldn't talk about it. They sort of tried to go as far as they could in public.

DERSHOWITZ: But then he could have gone public and he could have said, here's this information. The Intelligence Committee has it. They won't reveal it. I'm not going to reveal the information. I'm just going to tell you that there is this information.

There was no really good reason for revealing the intelligence information itself, as distinguished from the program, without at least trying step by step. And so I think he put the -- he used the illegality as a first recourse, rather than a last recourse.

As far as Greenwald is concerned, he's an ideologue. I don't think he would have revealed this information if it had been critical of Venezuela or Cuba or the Palestinian Authority. He doesn't like America. He doesn't like Western democracies. He's never met a terrorist he didn't like.

So he's a very hard-left ideologue that uses this to service his political agenda, not simply to reveal information in a neutral way. That makes him very different from WikiLeaks, I think.

BASH: Well, he's not here to defend himself. And I -- just, to be fair, I think he would call himself somebody who's for civil liberties and not that he doesn't like America. But I won't put words in his mouth, but I just think, for fairness, I should describe how he describes himself.

(CROSSTALK)

DERSHOWITZ: Let's see him reveal information critical of countries he supports, rather than countries he opposes. Then I will believe him.

BASH: Fair point. We will see about that.

Stick around, though. We're going to bring you back later to talk about Utah's ruling on same-sex marriage.

But, first, Iran's leaders have sent out a remarkable series of tweets extending holiday greetings. Foreign Minister Javad Zarif tweeted: "May the spirit of Christmas bring joy, peace, empathy and compassion to everyone throughout the coming year. Merry Christmas."

Then President Hassan Rouhani, who has waged a charm offensive since his election, added: "May Jesus Christ, prophet of love and peace, bless all of us on this day. Wishing merry Christmas to those celebrating, especially Iranian Christians."

And even Iranian's hard-line supreme leader, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, tweeted saying, "Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, was a herald of God's grace, blessing and guidance for man."

Still ahead: Gay marriage comes to an unlikely state. Will Utah officials be able to stop it?

Plus, a Christmas message from Pope Francis to atheists. We will look at what he said and how significant it may be.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Utah's attorney general is prepared to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to put a halt to more same-sex marriages in the state. Hundreds of gay and lesbian couples have been married since a federal judge struck down Utah's gay marriage ban. An appeals court denied the request for a stay.

So, this Christmas, gay right supporters have something extra to celebrate.

CNN's Miguel Marquez reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For gay and lesbian couples in Utah --

COURTNEY MOSER, MARRIED PARTNER IN UTAH: I do.

MARQUEZ: -- those two little words mark the sound of victory.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I pronounce you bound together in the covenant of marriage, what God has joined together, let no one put asunder.

MARQUEZ: On Monday, federal Judge Robert Shelby ruled same-sex marriages are legal, denying the conservative state's emergency requests to halt them, calling the ban unconstitutional.

MOSER: I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. I'm so grateful to finally have the protection of the state.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is it. It's go time.

MARQUEZ: Hundreds of LBGT couples now lining up at clerks' offices, weathering frigid temperatures.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brave the cold all night long.

MARQUEZ: And long waits to tie the knots, getting their hands on marriage licenses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Try number four for us.

MARQUEZ: It's a victory nine years in the making, since the state's ban in 2004, Utah now joins the nation's capital and 17 other states that have legalized same-sex marriage.

MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: It's a huge deal, because for Mormons who have been spending these years fighting this battle, they've seen it happen across the country, but they didn't really expect it to have it come to really their backyard.

MARQUEZ: The conservative states refusing to back down. It filed an appeal in the Tenth Circuit Court, the state's governor accusing Shelby of being, quote, "an activist federal judge" and saying he's working to determine the best course to defend within the borders of Utah.

COPPINS: It's going to be that much harder for conservatives to make the case that this can be stopped when Utah, one of the most conservative states in the country, has now legalized it. Once the dominos start falling, you won't be able to stop it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may kiss.

MARQUEZ: Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Let's bring in back Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard University, and author of "Taking the Stand: My Life in the Law", in which he writes extensively about the future of same-sex marriage.

Now, the Supreme Court isn't likely to accept the Utah case which would effectively uphold the ruling. What happens next for opponents of same-sex marriage in Utah?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR: Well, the case will be argued to the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit, which is a fairly balance conservative court. But I think it will uphold the federal district court.

Look, this is only a matter of time. Ten years from now, nobody will understand why these issues were even being litigated. This is not at all like abortion, which Roe versus Wade didn't change many opinions in the United States.

The trend is so clearly in favor of gay marriage, that in 10 years, every state will permit it. It won't come from the top down from the Supreme Court. It will come from the bottom up. It will come from the people. Young people don't understand why you deny equality to gay people.

So, we're seeing it in Utah. We're seeing it in Ohio. I think we'll see it in Indiana. I suspect that very soon, every state will have gay marriage. And I think Utah, because it's such a conservative state, will really show the way.

BASH: You mention that it won't come from the top down, so to speak. The Supreme Court did have two opportunities this year to legalize gay marriage. Both times they favored gay marriage, but ruled narrowly so it didn't actually define marriage. What is the significance of this?

And more specifically, why do you think the Supreme Court has been leaving it to the states? And will they continue to do so, or do you think at some point they might have to weigh in on a federal level?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, I hope not. I think they learned the lesson from Roe versus Wade. That was a terrible mistake. Abortion was being legalized in many states, and throughout the world. And the Supreme Court by taking the case and constitutionalizing it, created a major conflict, and that conflict still exists and hasn't been resolved.

It's so much better for democracy when issues of this kind are resolved from the bottom up, when the people make the decision. Of course, also, in abortion, there's a victim, if you believe the fetus is a human being. There's a victim.

In gay marriage, whose business is it if people get married other than the people themselves? There's no countervailing argument on the other side. The absurd notion that heterosexual marriages are somehow interfered with if gay people get married is so absurd, it doesn't even deserve a response. And it's been clearly rejected by the courts, appropriately.

So, I think we're going to see a major trend whereby states, state legislatures, even eventually referenda will approve gay marriage. The Indiana case is an interesting one because there's a referendum now pending which is clearly unconstitutional. It says that other than marriage, even other rights won't apply equally to gays and that would be struck down.

BASH: I was going to ask you about this. Let me actually read to our viewers part of what that language is. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of married or unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized."

You do think, just to be clear, this is something that the Indiana state legislature is considering adding to a ban that they already have on gay marriage? You think that that will not be upheld if they passed it?

DERSHOWITZ: Tat would clearly be unconstitutional. That even prohibits kind of a status equivalent to marriage, civil status for gay people.

It denies fundamental equality. It's a dinosaur. It's on the way out.

Let's concentrate on other matters. This is not an issue that affects other people's rights. Let's just understand that gay and lesbian people have the same rights as the rest of us. You know, this is, again, like desegregation.

Thirty years ago, it was prohibited for white and black people to marry each other. Today, people don't even -- when I tell my students that, they don't believe it. They have to check it out to see that there was ever a time there was statutes prohibiting white and black people from marrying each other. I think 20 years from now people will have to look it up when they say, oh, my God, men were not allowed to marry each other, or women were not allowed to marry each other? It's just a dinosaur and we have to recognize that and move on to other issues that really have two sides. This one is a one-sided issue.

BASH: Alan Dershowitz, thank you for coming in on this Christmas Day. Happy holidays.

And ahead, U.S. Marine --

DERSHOWITZ: Merry Christmas, everybody.

BASH: U.S. Marines are ready to move at a moment's notice to help evacuate Americans from violence-torn South Sudan. Why that bloody complex is growing more dangerous by the day.

And in his first Christmas address, Pope Francis reaches out to atheists in a special plea for peace.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: One hundred fifty combat-ready U.S. Marines are standing by to help evacuate Americans from the violence-torn South Sudan. Dozens of those Marines have been moved to neighboring Uganda, ready to move at a moment's notice.

The fighting between rebels and government troops is growing worse. The U.N. reports ethnic rivalries have led to mass killings and is moving to boost the number of peacekeepers there.

Let's bring in our CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

And, Barbara, the United Nations is almost doubling the peacekeeping force in South Sudan.

But it's really had a mixed track record of being able to stop violence. What is the influence and the influx of these helmets really going to mean?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're going to have to get there fast. And that may be the biggest problem right now. Nations have to be willing to contribute the actual personnel to put on those blue helmets, those blue hats and go in there and try and do something.

What can they do? Very little at the moment. They are trying desperately already, the ones that they do have there, to keep people safe. Some 40,000-plus South Sudanese are trying to seek shelter in U.N. compounds and safe areas. And it is very tough going for them, because the violence is growing worse.

This has been a problem across Africa for decades, of course, when these ethnic rivalries, this genocidal violence breaks out. You know, really, it requires a political solution. The U.N. goes in, and just tries to save as many people as they can, with help and aid from the private sector as well.

BASH: You talk about political solution, the United States was one of the strongest supporters of South Sudan's bid for independence, with the hope that things would not go the way they've gone obviously.

How does that impact the administration's thinking on this going forward?

STARR: Well, this was supposed to be, as you say, you know, the state that would show with U.S. support and Western backing, that this kind of thing was possible. But apparently, the violence really exploded over the last several days, when the former vice president of the South Sudan, according to allegations, staged a coup against the president. Violence broke out. Politically oriented perhaps at first, but in the last couple of days the United Nations said it has taken a terribly disturbing turn with this notion of mass graves, killings, ethnic killing, genocidal violence. It is a race against time to try to really stop this before it totally spins out of control.

BASH: Just awful.

Barbara, thank you very much. Appreciate that.

Now, Pope Francis delivered his first Christmas message earlier today. Besides highlighting the presence of God in everyday life, the pope made a push for peace in some of the world's most volatile hot spots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): Too many lives have been shattered in recent times by the conflict in Syria, fueling hatred and vengeance. Foster social harmony in South Sudan, where current tensions have already caused numerous victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Let's bring our CNN religion commentator, Father Edward Beck.

And, Father, you heard what Pope Francis said, and specifically talked about Syria, about Sudan, talked also about Iraq, the central African republic, human trafficking.

That was today.

Listen to some of what we've heard from Christmas messages from popes in the past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE BENEDICT XVI (through translator): Yes, may peace bring up for the people of Syria -- deeply wounded, and divided by a conflict which does not spare even the defenseless, and reaps innocent victims.

POPE JOHN PAUL II (through translator): Let there rise a firm will to seek peaceful solutions, respectful of the legitimate aspirations of individuals and of peoples.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I actually was covering George W. Bush as the Iraq war started, back in 2004, when he visited the Vatican and watched him get a little bit of a tongue lashing from Pope John Paul. But that was kind of a unique situation.

Broadly, this pope seems to be a lot more assertive in speaking out against these conflicts.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: Yes. And, Dana, it's not surprising on a day when Christians celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace, that the pope would focus on a message of peace. You'll remember that this is the same pope who when the G-20 Summit was meeting in St. Petersburg, hand a letter to president Putin against any military action in Syria.