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Christie Says No Knowledge or Involvement; U.S. Attorney in New Jersey Reviewing Closure; Christie Says He's Embarrassed and Humiliated; Interview with Bill Pascrell

Aired January 09, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's the top of the hour. Let's reset for viewers who may just be tuning in here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. And we've just seen an extraordinary nearly two-hour news conference by the governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, apologizing repeatedly for what occurred in his state by some of his senior advisors announcing some forced resignations. He was firing his deputy chief of staff, Bridget Anne Kelly, for supposedly going ahead and orchestrating an act of political vengeance -- a political vengeance, against the mayor of Fort Lee, New Jersey, the folks of Fort Lee, because the mayor allegedly, supposedly had failed to endorse his re-election. The mayor is a Democrat. Chris Christie is a Republican. Why a Democrat should necessarily endorse a Republican for re-election is something that is odd to begin with.

We didn't get the explanation from Bridget Anne Kelly. The governor didn't get the explanation from his former deputy chief of staff, because he didn't talk to her after he fired her.

Chris Cuomo is watching this closely for us in New York. Chris, why wouldn't -- if you wake up in the morning -- as the governor says he went and exercised at about 8:30 in the morning. He sees on his iPad this story in one of the New Jersey newspapers with all the e-mail, the text messages between his deputy chief of staff and others saying go ahead and close traffic, close these lanes, disrupt whatever was going on. Why wouldn't he then call up his deputy chief of staff and say, Bridget Anne, what's going on? How could this happen?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CO-HOST, "NEW DAY": Well, obviously it's an unanswerable question, Wolf, except that it makes you examine what the likely process was. In my experience, the idea that the governor would learn about the situation from the press is difficult to believe. It is possible but in a situation like this, it's so sensitive. The idea of getting advanced notice of what's going to be in the paper is very likely. And the fact that he's the first one to see the media and what's in it is also unlikely just because of the nature of how these dynamics usually are. You have people around you for a reason. They're doing a lot of thinking and planning for you for a reason when you're at the top of the food chain.

But it does go to one of the questions of process here that the governor is going to have to deal with. This was very impressive, if nothing else, for its duration, what we just sat through with the governor here. And I think it shows his confidence in his situation and what he thinks he's exposed to. But you must balance responsibility, which he takes, with accountability. This is not my culture, but these are your people. They are not accidents. They are not among this 65,000. They are the keys. They are your hands. They are your heart. You know everything about them. The intimacy cannot be overstated.

And then you have Baroni and Wildstein retire right after this thing originally happens. Why did they both retire at that time? Why weren't any questions asked then? So, responsibility and accountability is going to be a continuing situation for the governor to deal with.

BLITZER: Yes. Jake Tapper wants to weigh in on that specific point.

TAPPER: Well, I've just got two points. And in terms of the durability, first of all, we should say, CNN has researched this and there are other legendary long press conferences when politicians were in something of a pickle and they felt like the best thing to do was get out there and give it all.

John McCain, when he was in the Keating Five scandal, that was a 90- minute press conference. Geraldine Ferraro, the vice presidential nominee, when she was in hot water about her finances and her family's finances, again, 90 minutes. This was 108 minutes. This was longer than those two press conferences. So, just in terms of duration, there's a little historical reference.

But one thing I wanted to say about these e-mails, just to touch on a point Chris made, which is all of these e-mails are sent on private e- mail accounts or on text messages presumably from phones.

BORGER: Yes.

TAPPER: So, obviously, the governor said they didn't do a thorough investigation in terms of reading their e-mails. They didn't go in and look at their e-mails sent from state accounts. They just took the word for it. But it is also true that even if they had done that, none of this would have showed up because these are on private accounts. The question was not asked at the press conference, Governor Christie, do you have a private e-mail account on Yahoo or Gmail that you talk business on?

BORGER: I also want --

BLITZER: Well, --

BORGER: -- to point out that the governor could not distance himself fast enough, by the way, from David Wildstein, whom the press -- we had portrayed him as being a good old friend of Governor Christie, went to high school with him. And the governor said, look, we're not friends. I was on the football team. I don't know what Wildstein was doing in those years.

BLITZER: It was a big high school.

BORGER: Completely distanced himself --

BLITZER: All right.

BORGER: -- from having anything to do with it.

BLITZER: Our own John king was there at the news conference and listened to every word. And he had this exchange with the governor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: John -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And you say you're going to continue to ask questions of your staff. I want to know what questions you might be asking of yourself. These aren't just any of 65,000 employees, these are five or --

CHRISTIE: Yes.

KING: -- six people as close to you can get. People you trusted. In at least one case, went to a birthday party. And they either --

CHRISTIE: What was that last piece?

KING: Went to a birthday party.

CHRISTIE: Went to a birthday of mine?

KING: One of your -- one of your staff. The staff member you fired this morning.

CHRISTIE: Yes, a few of them were there.

KING: So, I'm just asking, what do you ask yourself about -- they either thought this is what the boss wanted or they -- as a group, they were willing to go rogue and do this and then cover it up and then lie to you?

CHRISTIE: Well, listen, obviously -- I said earlier, John, I'm heartbroken about it, and I'm incredibly disappointed. I don't think I've gotten to the angry stage yet but I'm sure I'll get there. But I'm just stunned. And what does it make me ask about me? It makes me ask about me what did I do wrong to have these folks think it was OK to lie to me. And there's a lot of soul searching that goes around with this.

You know, when you're a leader of an organization, and I've had this happen to me before where I've had folks not tell me the truth about something, not since I've been governor, but in previous leadership positions, you always wonder about what you could do differently. And believe me, John, I haven't had a lot of sleep the last two nights. And I've been doing a lot of soul searching. I'm sick over this. I have worked for the last 12 years in public life developing a reputation for honesty and directness and blunt talk. One that I think is well-deserved.

But, you know, when something like this happens, it's appropriate for you to question yourself and certainly I am. And I am soul searching on this. But what I also want the people of New Jersey to know is that this is the exception, not the rule. And they've seen that over the last four years with the way I've worked and what I've done.

So, I don't want to fall into the trap of saying, well, this one incident happened therefore the one incident defines the whole. It does not. Just like one employee who's lied doesn't determine the character of all the other employees around you. And so, I don't want to overreact to that in that way either, John. But if you're asking me over the last 48 hours or last 36 hours, have I done some soul searching? You bet I have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Fascinating exchange, John. You were there. You -- take us inside that room. We saw it all obviously on T.V. but what was it like inside?

KING: It's a pretty small room, Wolf, just outside the governor's office, and it was packed with reporters, with cameras, television cameras, photographers. And what was fascinating to me is first the governor, he knows this was a moment -- a defining moment for him in terms of his credibility of both personally and politically.

So, as you've all been noting, he stood there for nearly two hours and kept taking questions. Some of the questions were a bit redundant, some of them were more commentary than questions. But he stood there and took it and he knew he had to. And it was a very different Chris Christie. If you've watched him over the years, sometimes he has a lot of bravado, sometimes he has a lot of gusto. He tried to stay very calm and very level headed. It was well into the second hour when he had his first laugh at one of the questions.

So, uncharacteristically low key, if you will, because he understood the gravity of the moment, repeatedly apologizing, repeatedly saying, I didn't do this but I am accountable for this, I am responsible for this.

One of the interesting thing to me was -- you couldn't see this probably much on television. But to the governor's left -- to the governor's left and my right sitting in the room, his senior staff was all lined up against the wall. And they were watching him so intently from beginning to end because they understand what's at stake here. He's about to begin his second term as governor. He's taken over the chairmanship of the National Republican Governors Association. His plan is to spend 2014 traveling the country helping the Republican Party and helping gubernatorial candidates get elected.

And he hopes that's the springboard, Wolf, to a head start in the Republican nominating battle for president in 2016. So, everybody understood the stakes both from New Jersey politics and national politics. And watching his staff just look at him eagle eyed, beady eyed the entire time to me is proof they get the moment as well.

BLITZER: Yes, they certainly understand the enormity of what's going on right now. This could be a make or break moment in his own political career and certainly the stakes for so many people in New Jersey are enormous.

John, standby. S.E. Cupp, one of the co-hosts of "CROSSFIRE," was watching as closely as anyone. S.E., so what did you think? Did you believe him?

S.E. CUPP, CNN CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": I did. And I think -- you know, this was always best case scenario. I think yesterday, a lot of us thought, well, look, he had to either be explicitly involved or at least cursorily involved. You know, gave a directive to staff members, take care of this problem and then made something happen. But the idea that he is insisting he had absolutely no knowledge. There was no vendetta because he didn't know this mayor of Fort Lee. Was blindsided yesterday. If that's true, that is best case scenario for Chris Christie. And I think during this press conference, he checked all the appropriate boxes. I'm sad. I apologize. I'm responsible. I'll be angry. I fired people. I'm going to look into this further and get to the bottom of it. He apologized to the people of Fort Lee.

I mean, he really did spend the right amount of time both in that press conference and then answering questions addressing very serious grave questions. And I think -- I think that will satisfy a lot of people, at least in the short-term. There are more questions to be asked. The three of you have raised those questions. So, he's not completely out of the woods. But as press conferences go, I think it was pretty much the best he was going to do.

BLITZER: The question I have, S.E., and maybe you have a sense of this, you know, we have not heard from Bridget Anne Kelly, his Deputy Chief of Staff who was fired.

CUPP: Yes.

BLITZER: We haven't heard from Bill Stepien, and we haven't heard from David Wildstein. At some point, we're going to hear from them. And what they say, potentially, could be very damaging to this governor.

CUPP: Yes, I mean, clearly they didn't respect him enough. If what he's saying is true, clearly they didn't respect him enough to warn him of this, tell him they were doing it, come clean when he asked over and over again. So, you have to wonder, when they're pressed and sort of their backs are against the wall, if they're -- if they're going to be kind to him or if they're going to try and implicate him somehow.

If he is involved, let me just say, this is over for Chris Christie. And if it comes out that he was, that was the worst best performance that I think a lot of us have ever seen in politics. Those were boldfaced lies to our faces, if the -- if the details come out that he did have some involvement in this. And then in that case, I don't think anyone would be able to stomach anymore of Chris Christie.

But that said, I mean, I thought he was very believable today. He was humble and contrite in ways we don't generally see him. And I believed he didn't know about it. I believe he was blindsided. I believe he's humiliated and angry at his staff. But there's -- again, there's more questions to be asked. So, we'll see how he does over the next few weeks and months.

BLITZER: Let's play a little clip of the governor of New Jersey coming out and talking about how he felt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIE: I am embarrassed and humiliated by the conduct of some of the people on my team. There's no doubt in my mind that the conduct that they exhibited is completely unacceptable and showed a lack of respect for the appropriate role of government and for the people that were trusted to serve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: New Jersey Congressman, Bill Pascrell, is in his ninth term as a Democratic representative, representing Fort Lee and the neighboring towns. Congressman, thanks very much for joining us.

REP. BILL PASCRELL (D), NEW JERSEY: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, what's your reaction? What did you -- what do you think of what you heard?

PASCRELL: Well, my major thoughts are with the people of Fort Lee, they're the victims, not the governor. What I got from this press conference was he was making himself the victim. Now, if you want me to believe, Wolf, that Bridget got up one morning and thought of this and concocted this idea of jamming the traffic of Fort Lee, pushing that traffic back for hours, if you want me to believe that, I don't -- I'm telling you, I don't believe that whatsoever. It's not about the e-mails, governor. It's about what happened in early September in Fort Lee. And we still don't know what really happened.

There's a hearing that is going to go on this afternoon in Trenton. While I'm in Washington and you're out there, there's a hearing that's going on in Trenton. And Mr. David Wildstein will be able to say before the record, after he is sworn, which he tried to get out of today, as you know, but a judge overruled it. He's got to testify today.

BLITZER: Well, let me interrupt you, Congressman.

(CROSSTALK)

PASCRELL: -- unfold.

BLITZER: Congressman, hold on for a moment because we're just learning now from his attorneys that he will plead the fifth. He will not testify, David Wildstein, at that hearing. There you're seeing live pictures coming in --

PASCRELL: Interesting.

BLITZER: -- right now. So, he's not going to give an explanation. PASCRELL: Yes.

BLITZER: I guess his attorneys have advised him that would be wrong for his own personal standpoint.

PASCRELL: So - so -

BLITZER: You know what, congressman, standby for a moment. I want to just listen to hear what they're saying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) disagree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Understood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will continue with the questioning. The committee does have the right to find your client's failure to respond to validly asked questions to be in contempt of this committee's subpoena and to take a vote on that and that matter may be referred to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Do you understand that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is understood, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And so what I would like to do is just continue with the questioning and we will address your client's objections and failure to comply at the conclusion of those questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That -- that is acceptable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you very much.

So, Mr. Wildstein, I would like to ask you questions about the documents you have submitted to this committee through your attorney. In particular, I would like to draw your attention to page 751 of the documents. And that may be tabbed, Mr. Adidis (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess they are. Could you just give me a moment, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you need the assistance of a committee aide to --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can get there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see the number. We have the page in front of us, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, page 751 contains communications. My question is, does page 751 contain communications dated August 5, 2013?

DAVID WILDSTEIN: On the advice of counsel, I again assert my right to remain silent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And that document refers to a meeting with Port Authority Chairman David Samson, does it not?

WILDSTEIN: On the advice of counsel, I assert my right to remain silent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that also refers to a meeting with the governor of the same date?

WILDSTEIN: Mr. Chairman, on the advice of counsel, I assert my right to remain silent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. For the edification of the committee, and I certainly want to ask council -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it is your client's intention to assert that right on every single question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, so I just want to be clear, so that any question that I may ask or that any of the members of this committee may ask, it is your intention or your advice to your client to assert the right to not answer the question based on the Fifth Amendment?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I anticipate that to be so in every instance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I don't want to belabor the point, but I do want to go through a couple of documents and just see where we stand on that issue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand fully.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Am I correct in understanding that with regard to anything on page 751 you are not answering on the basis of your right under the Fifth Amendment?

WILDSTEIN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I then would like to draw your attention to the document at page 706.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have it in front of us, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. This e-mail communication, is it not?

WILDSTEIN: On the advice of counsel, I assert my right to remain silent, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You can't tell me whether it's an e-mail or a text message?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same answer.

WILDSTEIN: The same answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's an e-mail between Bridget Kelly, the governor's deputy chief of staff and yourself?

WILDSTEIN: The same answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that e-mail says it's time for traffic problems in Fort Lee?

WILDSTEIN: It's the same answer, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you responded to that e-mail?

WILDSTEIN: It's the same answer, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

Then moving forward, there is on page -- page 753. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I strike that, 757.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not sure that that one is marked, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 757.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have 751 -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's followed by 774.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Mr. Bond (ph) is going to come down and -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Help you locate that document.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Appreciate that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apologize for the inconvenience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No -- no problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charlie, it's three pages after the 750 tab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're on 750.

BLITZER: All right, you're watching -- we're all watching, in fact, a hearing going on in Trenton, New Jersey. State legislators trying to question David Wildstein. He was one of the top representatives of the New York-New Jersey Port Authority. He resigned shortly after this scandal erupted. Someone who had been supposedly close to the governor, Chris Christie, although Chris Christie, even though - acknowledging they went to high school together said he barely knew him, didn't know him that much.

But Wildstein is refusing to answer questions posed by the legislature citing his right to remain silent, if you will, at every question. Even inane questions, he's refusing to answer based on the advice of his council. Representative -- Democratic Representative Bill Pascrell of New Jersey, who represents Fort Lee, among other places, in New Jersey, he's been listening.

It's a pretty shocking development, if you think about it, congressman, that this individual is now pleading the fifth, if you will, refusing to answer questions.

PASCRELL: Right. We've gone from jolting about the cones in the road by the governor, to a very sad day. This is a sad day, as the governor said. If you listen to this testimony and taking the fifth. Now, taking the fifth doesn't mean you're guilty of anything. That's our constitutional rights. But the fact of the matter is, this is the onion -- this is the onion, Wolf, that's unfolding leaf by leaf at a time. And I can assure you - I can assure you from what I've known, from what I've studied, that this is only the beginning of what's going to be a long investigation into behavior that is reprehensible that effected and offended the people of Fort Lee. I can assure you that that's the case.

And I have confidence that the state can do this job. I understand that the U.S. attorney's going to be looking into this as well. We don't need a plethora of investigations. But we need the truth to come out, though, for everybody.

This does not help Democrats. This certainly doesn't help Republicans. This is a sad day when our institutions are being attacked again because of our inability to police ourselves.

BLITZER: Well, it sounds to me that you're skeptical about the governor and his role. Are you saying -- and I want to be specific with you, congressman, you don't believe his arguments he made during those nearly two hours at that news conference?

PASCRELL: No, what I don't believe is that this is an issue of e- mails. This goes beyond the e-mails. This started in early September. Our attention should have been brought to it.

I wrote a letter to Mr. Baroni when he was still in the position at the Port Authority. I asked him on September the 13th, you need -- we need to get an explanation of this now while these traffic backups are happening. Why is this going on? I never got an answer from Mr. Baroni and I kept my mouth closed until yesterday because it's time now for us to speak out because it affects so many other people.

There is a culture in Trenton, there is a culture which is unfolding which should have unfolded before the last gubernatorial election. This governor has been dually elected. He deserves to be sworn-in. But the truth shall be known by everybody. It won't matter what statue of life, what status of life you're in, what party you belong to, this is going to be a big deal, Wolf. I guarantee you.

BLITZER: And will it directly involve the governor?

PASCRELL: Well, that remains to be seen. We'll watch it unfold. But who would have thought a month ago, when we were dismissed as simply people trying to bring some partisan politics to an election that already happened, and we know about that in Washington as you know, who would have thought we'd be here today listening to a gentleman who resigned as did Mr. Baroni take the Fifth Amendment on what you call and what I would call inane questions.

There is something here beyond Bridget Kelly. There is something beyond - and if you don't believe there is anything beyond Bridget Kelly - I knew Bridget Kelly. I worked with her. She worked for a Republican assembly person who had a great deal of respect for her. I have a great deal of respect for Bridget. What she put on an e-mail perhaps was not the best thing to do. But if you think that she is the engineer of all of this mess, I cannot believe that.

He appointed every one of these individuals. So the question is not, what did he know, when did he know it? That's insignificant. The question is what really happened. And more than an apology, the Fort Lee - the Fort Lee residents deserve a lot more than just an apology. While we're paying higher tolls on the George Washington Bridge, folks at the Port Authority, many of them, are frolicking. And that's a bigger picture which this governor did not stop, nor the governor of New York.

BLITZER: He's going to be going to your district later today, he says. Even if he's not going to be meeting with the mayor of Fort Lee, he's going to be meeting with residents there. We'll see how that goes.

PASCRELL: Yes.

BLITZER: Congressman, thanks very much for joining us.

PASCRELL: An honor to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. So there are a lot of legal questions that are now coming to the floor in this escalading scandal, shall we say. Ashleigh Banfield is in New York looking at this part of the story.

You've got some good legal minds with you, Ashleigh. Pick it up.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It's a good thing too because the United States attorney in New Jersey, Wolf, through a press spokesperson today said, in fact, the matter has been referred to them and they will be looking into this.

I want to bring along Jeffrey Toobin and Paul Callan to just sort of hash out the implications of this. It's one thing to stand before the public where you don't have to swear under oath and you can make statements. It's another thing to sit before a committee where Mr. Wildstein would not actually make comments and instead invoked his Fifth Amendment privilege, or it's another thing to have to answer to the U.S. attorney. What do you think is afoot right now in that U.S. attorney's office?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: They have to figure out what the facts are. And certainly Governor Christie's view of what happened is a very important part of the fact gathering process. But it's not all of it. Who knew what when? What do the e-mails say? What do all the e-mails say? The government e-mails, the personal e-mails, the text messages sent on personal phones, as well as state phones. And all of the people around this decision. I mean what we don't know and what governor Christie said at great length is that he didn't know how this decision was made to change the traffic in Fort Lee. That question is going to be a very important one for Paul Fishman, the U.S. attorney, and his staff to figure out.

BANFIELD: Well, if there is an electronic paper trail, I just wonder how quickly the U.S. attorney works, Paul. Would they be actually crafting subpoenas at this moment to try to get a look at everyone, including the governor's, personal and professional e-mails?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They may very well be doing that. But bear in mind, one of the things that Governor Christie, I suppose, has to worry about is that the new U.S. attorney, who replaced Christie, by the way, was appointed by President Barack Obama. He's, you know, from the Democratic side of the aisle. Although when he was sworn in, I noted that one of the things he said was, he wasn't going to politicize his office, that he would fairly investigate crimes. And I think when you step back from this, in the end, you have to say, is it really a crime to change a traffic pattern leaving to the G.W. Bridge. I've never seen a criminal case was based on that. I -

BANFIELD: Well, some people call it official misconduct and that's a crime in New Jersey.

CALLAN: Well, I have seen -

BANFIELD: That's on the statute, official misconduct.

CALLAN: I've never -- I've never seen one based on moving some traffic cones. I have seen criminal cases arising out of the cover-up of an investigation. Now, if somebody lies to the U.S. attorney, lies to the FBI, that tends to be where they get in trouble. And I'm betting, in the end, they'll be no criminal prosecution in this case unless there's a cover-up.

TOOBIN: It is important to emphasize that there is not an obvious federal crime here. I mean I -- Paul -

BANFIELD: Federal crime.

TOOBIN: Federal crime, or even state crime. Yes, it is true there is this somewhat unusual law on the books in New Jersey called official misconduct.

BANFIELD: Official misconduct.

TOOBIN: That is a crime in New Jersey. It's not prosecuted very often.

BANFIELD: It's usually for favoritism and doing something for cronies -

TOOBIN: Right.

BANFIELD: As opposed to doing something against your constituents. TOOBIN: Right. But most of the time when a federal law enforcement investigation begins, it's pretty clear that they're looking into, did someone take money, was there fraud, was there some kind of -- did money change hands in an untoward way? That's not even on the table as far as I can tell here.