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Florida Shooting Trial; Lewinsky Scandal; Conservative Site Focuses on Clinton Marriage; Paul Doubles down on Criticism of Bill Clinton; New Testimony in "Loud Music" Murder Trial

Aired February 10, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARIA PAGAN, FLA. DEPT. OF LAW ENFORCEMENT CRIME LAB ANALYST on FIREARMS: That would be your right. That's a jacket fragment. But it's - it's pretty small and it's largely damaged, as well as turned in on itself. So it's not likely that any of the marks that were there would be either visible or viable or lessens the chances that it would be useful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay right there. I'm going to show you one more item of evidence. This's been entered as state's exhibit 189. Let me ask you, are those representative also of items that you cannot (ph) identify?

PAGAN: Again, it's kind of the same thing. I can't say for sure unless I was to actually look at them under a microscope whether they would be of value. But they are highly damaged and distorted. So, again, that would lessen the chances that they would be of value for identification.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And just -- could you just walk this particular exhibit for our jury (INAUDIBLE) right now. Ms. Begala (ph), are there times when an even more substantial piece of lead that's been fired from a gun still cannot be identified completely?

PAGAN: Yes, there are times we get a -- we can get bullets that look pretty much in tact without much damage, but they might - they might not be marked well. Certain -- some guns mark really well and other guns do not mark well. So sometimes it doesn't matter if there's a lot of damage or not. Some guns just do not mark bullets well - well enough to be used for identification. We take a look at them, look at what kind of marks are there, see if we can find anything. But it just varies from gun to gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me begin, ma'am, by showing you state exhibit 186 and asking you to refer to your report and tell me, is this one of the items which would be JSO (ph) submission one item two that you reviewed for your purposes?

PAGAN: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And in looking at that one under a microscope, were you able to either identify or eliminate that as having been fired from the gun that was submitted to you?

PAGAN: No, I was not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And tell the jurors what your finding that you may neither eliminate nor identify that particular piece means.

PAGAN: It means that this gun may or may not have been fired from this particular firearm. That I was not able to come to a conclusion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that is one of the items that you showed the jurors earlier with the attributes of that you could not actually be able to look for those little ridges and details that you described, is that correct?

PAGAN: I'm not - I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I showed - when I had you show that to the jury earlier and he showed them parts of that, is it missing that type of ridge detail you would need to be able to come to a more definite conclusion?

PAGAN: Sure. I did find that - that this jacket, this is a bullet jacket, that neither the bullet - this bullet jacket, nor the tests that I fired myself into the water tank, the tests weren't marked very well. This wasn't marked very well. So this would be one of the cases where it's a gun that just doesn't mark bullets very well and it can also be a function of the type of ammunition that's being used. But this gun did not appear to mark bullets very well and so it would be very difficult to identify bullets that were, in my opinion, be very difficult to identify bullets that were fired from this gun to that gun.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Thank you, ma'am.

Were there other items that you could not identify even though they appear to be as large as the ones I've just shown you?

PAGAN: Yes, I had two other bullets submitted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right.

PAGAN: And I should -- I should probably note that, in the barrel, there are grooves cut out in the barrel in a twist so that it, in part, spin on to the bullet. This particular gun had six grooves cut into it and it had a right twist. And those grooves are also a certain width.

And I did find that the bullets that were submitted to me, the bullets and the jacket that were submitted to me, did have the correct amount of grooves and twists. There were both six grooves, right twist, and they were a compatible width - similar width. So the class -- we call those class characteristics because it is possible for other guns to have six grooves with a right twist of a similar width. But it does help narrow down.

For instance, if these had had five grooves on them and my gun had six grooves, then I could automatically eliminate it. So the class characteristics of the bullets and jacket matched. However, I was not able to, again, I could not identify it as being fired in that gun or eliminate it as having been fired in that gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me ask you to assume the following facts for purposes of the question I will ask you. Assume that this bullet, the two bullets I'm about to show you were fired through a vehicle and into a human body, my question to you, looking at state's exhibit -- and then recovered, of course, from the medical examiner's office, would state's 190 and 192 fit the type of examination you just described?

PAGAN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And submission two, JSO's (ph) numbers, the mission two item two recovered from the medical examiner's office, were you able to identify this bullet as having been fired from the Taurus (ph) that you examined?

PAGAN: No. It was the same as the jacket, I could neither identify nor eliminate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. State's 192 in evidence. And I believe that one was 190, if I made a mistake. The first one's 190. Now I'm showing her 192. And ask you the same questions, ma'am. This was recovered from the Jacksonville's (ph) sheriff's office from the medical examiner. Were you able to eliminate or identify that as having been fired from the Taurus (ph)?

PAGAN: No, I was not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. Can I have just a second to get these back, judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma'am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there further items of evidence that you did in this case?

PAGAN: Yes, there were.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you referred to these particular three bullets that we just described -

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we're going to jump away from this testimony to give you some insight into why the prosecutor is asking this witness these questions. And, Joey Jackson, I'll pose that question to you.

It seems to me that the defense will try to prove that these young men had a gun in the car and as they drove away they ditched that gun. And now we find that there are unidentifiable bullet fragments inside the SUV. Is that where they're going with this?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, the defense could attempt to exploit this, but bringing it back home, Carol, this was not a shoot-out. And, in fact, the bullets, through the sound, and they've - we've heard played previous to this, there was sound played where you heard pop-pop, pop, pop, pop. Not this particular section, but there were bullets fired.

So in an instance like this and where there's - there's not a shoot- out, clearly it came from his gun. The defense, at some future point, can try to explain that, hey, it could have been someone else. But what she's saying is that, I can't identify nor can I eliminate, so certainly the probability, Carol, is that those projectiles do indeed match the gun. Whether the defense tries to exploit that will be up to them. I don't think it bears particular relevance because, again, there was one gun here.

COSTELLO: Well, Paul, is there any way that the prosecution can absolutely prove that these young men never had a gun, that they didn't ditch it?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, no, they can't. It's really circumstantial evidence because in - they came back right into the same parking spot in a very short period of time and there was no gun in the car. Nor was there any gun found around the gas station. So they're going to use circumstantial evidence.

And getting back to what Joey just had to say and why you're watching this extensive explanation of bullet fragments, it's what I call the CSI effect. You know juries now, they want to know, what does ballistics say about every piece of evidence at the scene. And if the prosecutor didn't put this expert on, the defense attorney would be saying in closing arguments, well, why didn't they identify the bullets in the car.

And the jury would be left with this impression, wow, these are unidentified bullets. So they want to introduce an explanation for every piece of evidence recovered at the scene so, in the end, the only bullets being fired are the shots fired by the defendant, which will be the prosecutor's claim.

COSTELLO: Fascinating. Let's head to Jacksonville and post a question to Tory Dunnan.

Jordan Davis' father, the victim in this case, is - may take the stand. What are you hearing about that?

TORY DUNNAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what we heard during the opening arguments, opening statements from the defense attorney is that Jordan Davis' father might testify to the fact that he met with these three teenage boys who were in the car with Jordan Davis.

And when he met with them after the shooting took place, the defense attorneys says he'll testify to the point that they were all in a traumatic state, that they couldn't get their stories right. But there is a little bit of a dispute, Carol, about whether or not he may actually take the stand. It's a possibility, but it's not a for sure thing.

COSTELLO: All right. Tory Dunnan, Joey Jackson, Paul Callan, stand by. I've got to take a break. We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right, we're going to continue to follow the trial proceedings from Jacksonville, Florida. Michael Dunn accused of killing 17-year-old Jordan Davis supposedly over loud music. A weapons expert is still on the stand. And just a few minutes ago, she showed the jury that .9 millimeter handgun that Michael Dunn kept in his glove box. The gun that was used to kill Jordan Davis. That's the clip that goes to the gun. So, dramatic testimony. At least some dramatics taking place in the courtroom. We'll take you back there with more a little later.

But in other news this morning, the Clinton's marriage is back in the spotlight. Imagine that. This time, courtesy of Diane Blair, a now deceased friend of Bill and Hillary, and the conservative website that reported on Blair's writings, which are housed at the University of Arkansas. Now, this website claims Blair wrote about Hillary's private reaction to Bill's affair with Monica Lewinsky, saying, quote, "it was a lapse, but she says to his credit he tried to break it off, tried to pull away, tried to manage someone who was clearly a narcissistic loony toon, but it was beyond control." The report echoes recent comments from Senator Rand Paul who says Bill Clinton is a liability for the Democrats based on the Lewinsky and other scandals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Anybody who wants to take money from Bill Clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do. In fact, I think they should give the money back. If they want to take a position on women's rights, by all means do. But you can't do it and take it from a guy who was using his position of authority to take advantage of young women in the workplace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: National political reporter Peter Hamby joins us now.

So, Peter, tell us more about Diane Blair and these private papers.

PETER HAMBY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Right. Diane Blair was a long-time friend of the Clinton's. Hillary Clinton referred to her once as her closest friend. When this story broke on the conservative "Free Beacon" last night, I picked up Bill Clinton's book, "My Life," his memoir, and she is mentioned throughout as a very dear friend. They spent a lot of time together. Bill Clinton spoke at a memorial service after she passed away.





CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The report echoes recent comments from Senator Rand Paul who says Bill Clinton is a liability to the Democrats based on the Lewinsky and other scandals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Anybody who wants to take money from Bill Clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do. In fact I think they should give the money back. If they want to take a position on women's rights by all means do but you can't do it and take it from a guy who is using his position of authority to take advantage of young women in the work place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: National political reporter Peter Hamby joins us now. So Peter, tell us more about Diane Blair and these private papers.

PETER HAMBY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Right Diane Blair was a long-time friend of the Clinton's. Hillary Clinton referred to her once as her closest friend when the story broke on the Conservative Free Beacon last night he picked up Bill Clinton's book "My Life" as his memoir and she is mentioned throughout as a very dear friend. They spent a lot of time together. Bill Clinton spoke at a memorial service after she passed away.

These documents became public in 2010. And apparently the Free Beacon was the first to get there. These notes, there's pages and pages of them. Diane Blair was a researcher on Bill Clinton's first campaign. And you can see her sort of meticulous note taking at work here, kind of dispassionate recounting of her conversations with Hillary Clinton. Yes, there is a mention of Monica Lewinsky throughout here. Hillary and Diane Blair talked frequently throughout that scandal.

But there's other thing in here that are interesting too, one of them again this is coming from the perspective of Diane Blair is that Hillary Clinton during the health care debates of the Clinton administration apparently said that a single payer health care system would be a necessity. That's something that contradicts what she said during the 2008 presidential campaign which she said she never supported a single payer.

So this is certainly re getting a lot of attention, there's a flood of Hillary Clinton's stories out there and this is just the latest -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Peter Hamby reporting live from Washington. Thanks so much.

HAMBY: All right.

COSTELLO: I want to head back to Jacksonville, Florida, to listen for more testimonies from this weapons expert Marie Pagan. She's talking about the .9 millimeter hand gun used to kill 17-year-old Jordan Davis. Let's listen. MARIE PAGAN, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT CRIME LAB ANALYST ON FIREARMS: -- around in the chamber you have to manually pull the slide back and load a cartridge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK did you check the semi-automatic for function?

PAGANO: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was there anything wrong with the function of this gun?

PAGANO: Let me double check. Can I --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. And may she bring her notes down here -- Judge?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have several questions and demonstrations for the jury?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK thank you.

PAGANO: I'm sorry, what was the last question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK my last question was did you find anything at all faulty with the function of this semi-automatic weapon?

PAGANO: The firearm did function. The only problem that I found with it was one of the safety functions didn't quite operate like it normally would. But you could -- it was the thumb -- the thumb safety. You could put it in safe position you just had -- it didn't operate as smoothly as it normally would.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell the jurors was a safety feature is.

PAGANO: A safety feature is a feature that the manufacturer puts into the gun to help prevent accidental shootings typically or to make the gun more safe to carry and to prevent people from accidentally shooting themselves or other people or whatnot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without being right there on scene and watching the shooter would you know whether or not they had the safety on or off prior to shooting?

PAGANO: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. How many safeties are there on this particular firearm?

PAGANO: This firearm it has a thumb safety and it have two internal safeties called firing pin block and it has a hammer intercept notch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Do you consider the handle the grip of this pistol to be fairly large or is it typical for that.9 millimeter?

PAGANO: It's for me being perhaps because I'm a female I feels it's a little large but it would again depend on the person who's using it obviously.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does it mean to fire this double action?

PAGANO: Double action is when -- the best -- the best way to explain it probably is to show you. Single action mode is when the user pulls the hammer back so that it is in cocked position like it is now. If I pull it back myself or used the slide to pull it back and now it's in this position and I pull the trigger that's called single action because the trigger is just doing one thing it's dropping the hammer.

But if I don't pull the hammer back manually and I don't use the slide to pull it back, if the hammer is already down and I was to pull the trigger cocks the hammer and releases the hammer that's double action mode.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does that affect the trigger pull when the shooter decides whether to fire it double action or single action?

PAGANO: Yes that will affect the force that's required on the trigger to have it -- to have it the trigger pull and fault and the hammer fault.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what does it mean to fire this gun single action?

PAGANO: Again single action would be if I manually cock the hammer or pull the hammer and cut the hammer with the slide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if you presume that the safety was on while this pistol was holstered, is that yet another step the shooter would have to take to get the gun in a ready-to-fire position?

PAGANO: Yes, it is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you test fire about this pistol?

PAGANO: Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell the jurors what type of test you performed?

PAGANO: When I first received the gun, I digitally inspect it and see if it appears to be functioning properly, if it appears to be safe. I also will dry fire it and again see if it appears to be functioning properly. At that point, if I deem it safe to test fire it, I take it into the range and I'll fire a couple shots into the water tank and then I'll retrieve the bullets that I fired and the spent cartridge cases and those will be what I use to make my comparisons.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you make note of in which direction the shell casings ejected from this firearm?

PAGANO: No, I did not. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Did you make note that the shell casings do eject from this firearm?

PAGANO: Yes. I don't believe I had them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's OK if you don't know direction but do they eject and fly outside of the gun when it's fired?

PAGANO: Yes. I didn't note that I had any problems with the ejection.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK can you give the jury a common example of what trigger pull means for a human being's finger?

PAGANO: Well, it's referring again to the amount of force, the amount that is required to pull the trigger back. So if the trigger pull is about six pounds, you are looking at six pounds of pressure on that trigger in the backwards direction. So it would be like pushing something that weighed six pounds backwards towards you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the trigger pull of this .9 millimeter when fired single action?

PAGANO: In a single action it was approximately 6.5 pounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the trigger pull of this .9 millimeter when fired double action?

PAGANO: The double action is approximately 13 pounds.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once a round is chambered into this pistol, does the shooter still have to pull the trigger with at least 6.25 pounds of pull for each round fired?

PAGANO: Yes, approximately.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So if ten shots had been fired from this specific pistol, does that mean with each shot, it's 6.25 pounds to pull that trigger?

PAGANO: Again yes, approximately.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And does that differ from a fully automatic weapon where you pull the trigger once and the shots just keep going?

PAGANO: That's correct. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So does this take a conscious effort of the shooter to have that second bullet come out?

PAGANO: I would say so. You have to -- you have to activate your finger each time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK and a third bullet?

PAGANO: Yes, for each -- for each fire. You have to pull that trigger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the way up to ten bullets?

PAGANO: Yes, however many are fired.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can resume the stand --

COSTELLO: All right we're going to break away and bring in our legal analyst, right now Paul Callan and Joey Jackson. So they talked a lot about this .9 millimeter gun and how it fires bullets and how far those bullets travel. Joey where -- where is -- where is the prosecutor going with this?

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well there are two major points to be made Carol. The first and most basic, it was an operable gun. We fired it into the water tank, no problem with its operability.

The second big point, look at the pressure, 6.25 pounds over and over and over again. What does that tell us? It means intention, it means purpose, it means I knew exactly what I was doing. That all adds up to the charge, which is intentional murder.

COSTELLO: OK so I believe that Maria Pagano this weapons expert is about to be cross examined. Let's listen to a bit of that.

CORY STROLLA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And again you're an expert in handling these -- correct?

PAGANO: Yes, sure.

STROLLA: You've done this your whole career.

PAGANO: Yes, I have handled many guns.

STROLLA: So to show the jury right now this is not the how it would sit inside that holster? Because of the way it's package from the state (ph) is that correct.

PAGANO: Right. It would be going in a bit further.

STROLLA: OK so in fact, you can see an outline of the trigger guard right here on the holster?

PAGANO: Yes, that's correct.

STROLLA: So that means it would go all the way in, would you agree with that?

PAGANO: Yes, I would.

STROLLA: OK. So isn't it true if that wasn't packaged for the state this way, you would never be able to fire that gun while it's in the holster, because you couldn't get your finger on the trigger? True?

PAGANO: I'm not sure I would be able to say that unless I saw it in there. I can't tell if you would be able to slip your finger in there or not.

STROLLA: But the way you can see the trigger guard is --

PAGANO: I can see it -- the trigger guard. I would think that you probably couldn't but again, unless I actually saw it in there, I couldn't say for sure.

STROLLA: And again, this is because it is packaged by the state this way?

PAGANAO: Because it has the zip tie, which keeps me from putting it on.

STROLLA: OK. And then do me a favor tell the jury, what is the manufacturer's trigger pull poundage on that firearm?

PAGANO: I am not sure what the manufacturer has listed for the pull.

STROLLA: Tell me what year that gun was manufactured?

PAGANO: I believe this was manufactured in 1988.

STROLLA: Did you do any research on that gun?

PAGANO: I did look that up. Usually, if we want to know that information, we can go to the manufacturer's Web site and often they will have that information on their specs list. If they don't, we can always try to call the manufacturer to get that information.

STROLLA: You have been on this case since when?

PAGANO: I believe I received it December, 2012.

STROLLA: OK. And you knew you were coming here to testify, correct?

PAGANO: Yes.

STROLLA: You knew the state was going to call you as an expert to testify about that gun, correct, correct?

PAGANO: Yes.

STROLLA: And you didn't look up any of the specifications for your testimony for this jury?

PAGANO: Just because it is not usually relevant to the case. We find most of the time though, even though a manufacturer will specify a specific trigger pull, we rarely find that to be the case when we actually measure trigger pull. Things like that can vary as well as change over time depending on the wear and use of the gun. And you also never know if the owner or previous owner of the gun might have changed out some springs or parts which would definitely affect the trigger pull.

STROLLA: Let me stop you right there because you just said that. Do you know if anyone other than Michael Dunn owned that gun? PAGANO: I don't know.

STROLLA: Did you ever do a history on the serial number?

PAGANO: That's not my job so, no I don't know.

STROLLA: OK. But it's on the gun, correct?

PAGANO: I'm sorry?

STROLLA: Is the serial number clearly marked on the gun.

PAGANO: Yes, it is.

STROLLA: And you guys at FDLE have specific computers and technology to track guns, correct?

PAGANO: We are not the ones that would run a serial number.

STROLLA: You said it is not your job, though, correct?

PAGANO: Right, that's not something I would do.

STROLLA: You didn't do it.

PAGANO: Correct.

STROLLA: In this case, did you ever take the gun apart?

PAGANO: No. I believe I probably field stripped it to take the slide off because I was checking out the safety and the --

(CROSSTALK)

STROLLA: When you field stripped it, did you check to see if the trigger was ever modified, customized, made to be what we call a hair trigger, anything like that?

PAGANO: No. I just -- again, I was looking specifically at how the safety was functioning but just generally, you look at the parts to see if anything does look altered. And this didn't -- I didn't notice anything that looked suspicious.

STROLLA: Now, you are an analyst at FDLE, correct? You are not a technical leader or supervisor, is that true?

PAGANO: That's correct.

STROLLA: All right. You go to that seat. I'm sorry. You can have a seat again.

How many times have you testified as an expert for ballistics, around 55 or 60?

PAGANO: Yes.

STROLLA: Did you tell the jury a safety is so you don't have an accidental shooting?

PAGANO: The safeties help prevent accidental shootings.

STROLLA: Isn't it true there is no such thing as an accidental shooting? It is called a negligent discharge, isn't that true?

PAGANO: In fact, I don't know. We usually say accidental shooting. I'm OK with the term negligent discharge too.

STROLLA: You have heard of that in your scientific field, isn't that true?

PAGANO: Actually, I don't recall hearing that term before but I'm sure it is used.

STROLLA: Negligent discharge, meaning an operator's error. The person holding the gun would be negligent in using it?

PAGANO: That makes sense.

STROLLA: You said you could not eliminate or truth-positive your testing. You said you shot with the big thing of water and it couldn't match the gun, correct?

PAGANO: With the bullets -- correct. I could not identify or eliminate the bullets.

STROLLA: You didn't use the same ammo. You just used ball ammos that you could find in your lab, isn't that true?

PAGANO: I believe I used the same type. I used the same type of ammo. I used the Winchester ammunition but I used a full metal jacket and not a jacket at hallowed point like the ammo that was here.

STROLLA: So the answer to my question, yes, you did not use the same ammo that you said --

PAGANO: Correct. I chose to use full metal jacket because when you fire full metal jacket, it stays together nicely, stays in pristine condition. A lot of times when you fire the jacket at hollow point, they'll expand and that might cover up the marks I want to see. But you usually get the same type of mark. You're typically going to get the same marks regardless of which one you use.

STROLLA: And you didn't do that. It didn't happen in this case, correct?

PAGANO: No. I used the full metal not the jacket at hollow point.

STROLLA: No, you couldn't identify it?

PAGANO: Correct.

STROLLA: You couldn't identify the markings and the stripings?

PAGANO: Correct I found that neither the test -- the test didn't mark well as well as the evidence bullets weren't well marked. So there just wasn't much information on the bullets to use to compare to each other, to make any kind of conclusion.

STROLLA: Isn't it true in your experience, that it is actually very common to be able to match bullets through a test fire into this water tank that you use at your office?

PAGANO: Yes, we do commonly identify bullets.

STROLLA: You couldn't in this case, is that correct?

PAGANO: That's correct.

STROLLA: Now, let me ask you this, is there a difference in a sound between a 38-caliber bullet and a 9-millimeter bullet?

PAGANO: I believe you would probably notice a difference in sound depending on ammunition and different guns and whatnot.

STROLLA: There are a ton of different variables, is that correct?

PAGANO: That's correct.

COSTELLO: Good morning, everybody. We just reached the top of hour -- 10:00 Eastern time. We are covering a trial from Jacksonville, Florida. This is the trial of Michael Dunn. He's accused of killing a --