Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
New Testimony In "Loud Music" Murder Trial; Michael Dunn's Girlfriend Gives Dramatic Testimony; U.S. Considers Killing American Terror Suspect; Journalist Launches New Snowden Mission; Report: Hillary Clinton Called Monica Lewinsky A "Narcissistic Loony Toon"
Aired February 10, 2014 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a ton of different variables, is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's correct.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Carol Costello. We just reached the top of have the hour. It's 10:00 Eastern. We are covering a trial from Jacksonville, Florida. This is the trial of Michael Dunn. He is accused of killing a teenager named Jordan Davis over loud music coming from that teenager's car at a gas station. Michael Dunn, the defendant in this case is using Florida's "Stand Your Ground" case as the defense.
On the stand right now is a woman named Maria Pagan. She is a weapons expert for the state of Florida. She talked a lot about the type of gun used to kill Jordan Davis, a 9-millimeter handgun. She is now being cross examined by Dunn's attorney, the defendant. Let's listen.
MARIA PAGAN, FLORIDA DEPT. OF LAW ENFORCEMENT CRIME LAB ANALYST ON FIREARMS: -- I would suspect that it would probably -- the report would probably sound the same each time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. And different guns with different ammos have different sounds?
PAGAN: I would expect so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am not putting words in your mouth or twisting your expertise around, correct? That's a fair and accurate representation?
PAGAN: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do bullets make right turns once they are fired?
PAGAN: No. They travel in a straight line unless they hit something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do bullets make left turns after they've been fired?
PAGAN: Again, same answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, do bullets go up after they have been fired? PAGAN: Same.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do they go down after they have been fired?
PAGAN: They are acted upon by gravity so eventually, yes, they will drop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, correct, but gradually?
PAGAN: Yes, gradually.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, but they are not going to make a turn down on a diagonal down, correct?
PAGAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a fair and accurate representation of how bullet trajectory works, is that correct?
PAGAN: Yes, I believe so.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, and even if it hits an object and ricochets, it is still not after it ricochets going to start going right, left, up or down, correct? Bullets just don't do that in this world?
PAGAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would defy the laws of physics, would it not?
PAGAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let me ask you this. When you test fired this gun, even a hollow point is one jacket and one core, correct?
PAGAN: Yes, that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the jacket folds back for the core, is that correct?
PAGAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me about a shotgun shell. How many pellets are in a shotgun shell?
PAGAN: It varies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, a matter of fact a 12-gauge could have 930- caliber bearings in them, correct?
PAGAN: A typical amount of pellets in a 12-gauge, they often have 9 pellets, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, that's for what we call double --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, it's irrelevant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let me ask you this. Does that have a different sound or different function than just a single bullet, a shotgun bullet?
PAGAN: Yes, shotguns would most likely sound different than a pistol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, and they shoot multiple versus one?
PAGAN: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, when you said that gun is large or that trip was large to you, was there any modifications to that gun to make it bigger?
PAGAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything done to that gun in your expertise to make it more powerful or more deadly?
PAGAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More accurate?
PAGAN: Not that I'm aware of, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just a regular manufactured gun, no custom work to it, correct?
PAGAN: It doesn't appear to have any.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, no modifications?
PAGAN: No, not that I saw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not even an after-market part put on it?
PAGAN: Again, I don't know about the grip, if it is an after-market grip, I would have to look at it again, but I didn't see anything special that looked different or like it was modified to be more powerful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if you did, it would have been in your report or you would have just testified to the jury?
PAGAN: Yes, that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you didn't do that?
PAGAN: It's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, if I can just have one moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing further, Judge. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bear briefly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Pagan, despite the sound this gun might make when fired, does it still fire bullets that can kill human beings?
PAGAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there any of the questions that Mr. Strolla asked you on cross exam that in any way prevent the shooter from firing this weapon from killing the human being when they aim that gun and fire in the direction of human beings?
PAGAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing further, Your Honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May she be excused?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
COSTELLO: All right, we are going to step away and bring in our experts now. Ashleigh Banfield is live in Jacksonville, Florida. She is covering this trial. Paul Callan and Joey Jackson are with me now, CNN legal analysts. So we have heard a lot about this 9-millimeter gun, Ashleigh. Kind of set the scene for us in Jacksonville.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So finally, it is sunny here for starters because the weather has been pretty miserable. When it is sunny, lots of people come out. I don't know if you can hear behind me. There is an echo of a loud speaker. Somebody who is out protesting in front of the courthouse, the same people who were out in front of the Zimmerman case.
And Carol, I know that doesn't surprise you because there are a lot of parallels being drawn between these cases. Why you are seeing what you are seeing now is what I like to call taking the box off all the evidence and making sure you cross every "t" and dot every "I." So obviously ballistics evidence is important although in this particular case, it doesn't seem to be the highlight.
Everybody seems to stimulate he shot the gun. It's not a question of whether he was the shooter. He says he was the shooter. It was all about what was in his state of mind. What I find critical though when it comes to the bullets and position of bullets and where they ended up in that red SUV is if the car was fleeing.
Because if you are afraid, do you shoot at a fleeing car so that may end up coming in and being better highlighted a little bit later on. But again, you don't leave anything unturned usually for appellate issues too. You have to make sure everything is on the record.
COSTELLO: I want to go back a couple of days and set the scene for our viewers because it was early evening the night this shooting went down, right, at a gas station. Michael Dunn pulls into the gas station. His fiancee was in the car. He goes into the gas station store to buy some wine.
He is outside and he is disturbed that these teenagers are playing this loud music. Now Rhonda Rouer, who is the fiancee took the stand over the weekend and had some dramatic testimony. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now as you were inside the store, could you hear the music that was coming from the red SUV?
RHONDA ROUER, DEFENDANT'S FIANCEE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While you were in the store, could you hear any sort of arguing going on?
ROUER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As you were walking to the register, did you hear anything unusual?
ROUER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did you hear?
ROUER: I heard pop, pop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you heard those noises, did you know what they were?
ROUER: No, I didn't.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you know where they were coming from?
ROUER: No, I didn't.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where were you when you first heard pop, pop, pop.
ROUER: I was walking the register, kind of goes like you have a long one and the cash register is like right here. So I was kind of walking up the aisle and the clerk was standing there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you at all paying attention to what was going on outside?
ROUER: No, I wasn't.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: Now, Ms. Rouer, also testified when they first pulled into the gas station that Michael Dunn said to her, I hate that thug music. Those were his words. Also, I should point out that Dunn said he hasn't realized he killed anyone at this point. In my mind, Paul, Ms. Rouer's testimony was quite damaging.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I think it was very damaging. You know in criminal cases like this and Joey Jackson, I'm sure can tell similar stories. A lot of times you are always worried that the fiancee or the wife or some close relative who has information might get forced on to the witness stand. If they go against your client, the defendant, it is really, really tough.
But I think we have to throw in one other thing. You know, the defense attorney tried to attack her or I shouldn't say attack her, but to use her to help Mr. Dunn by saying when they fled later on and they went to St. Augustine for the pizza, Mr. Dunn went to a bed and breakfast place after the shooting in a very uncharacteristic move by somebody who has just killed a human being.
They ordered pizza and remained there. She took the full blame for all of that saying she insisted that they stay there. So as bad as she was for the defense, at least the defense attorney got something out of her that I think he will try to use in his summation later on.
COSTELLO: But still, Joey, it was disturbing. After the shooting goes down, they go to this bed and breakfast and they order a pizza. They don't call the police at all. Even if she said it was her idea, I mean, wouldn't it be Mr. Dunn's duty to call the police after he pumped some bullets into someone else's car?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Carol, to your question. I think the jury is asking that same thing. They are certainly thinking about, what constitutes reasonableness. If you are in imminent fear for your life, you saw a stick, you saw the butt of a gun, you saw something that you thought could take your life and you reacted, because you had to and had no other alternative, what does human behavior dictate that you do following that?
That you call 911, that you stay and that you tell the police, I didn't mean to do it or, my God, it was my only alternative or does reasonableness dictate that you go and that you go to a bed and breakfast and order a pizza and that at some subsequent time, you travel back 130 miles? Not to the crime scene, of course. So the reality is that it does not comfort with human behavior. One could argue the prosecution will certainly make that argument. I think the jury is wondering if he was in such imminent fear, why did he react in the manner that he did following the shooting?
COSTELLO: The other question I have, and I'll pose this for Ashleigh, because she has to go and prepare for her own show in a little bit. If you suspect a group of teenagers are armed and dangerous traveling in an SUV, don't you want to protect others by calling the police too?
BANFIELD: You know, the reasonableness of all of this. What the (inaudible) saying is so critical. I do have to add one detail though, nobody is saying that Mr. Dunn knew he shot and killed anybody at the time. So let's all make sure that we are in that paradigm if you are trying to put yourself in his head, which these jurors are going to have to do. He shot at a car and they took off. He might have thought that was the end of it, got a few bullets into a car.
