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NFL Prospect Comes Out; Danish Zoo Under Fire; Drone Strike Debate

Aired February 10, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go, hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin, top of the hour.

Another black teen who lot of his life at the state of Florida who police say was unarmed was allegedly shot all over loud music. A man accused of pulling the trigger could take the stand at any moment here The state of Florida rested its case just about three hours ago and moments ago the victim's father took the stand. Michael Dunn faces a first-degree murder charge and three counts of attempted first-degree murder.

What is clear here is the fact that Michael Dunn shot and killed 17- year-old Jordan Davis in gas station parking lot back in November of 2012. Among myriad issues and questions, one of them is this. Were Dunn's actions lawful and were they were justified because he feared for his life?

Today, it's been about the details and the friends of Michael Dunn, family members of Michael Dunn. Listen to the two exchanges with a witness, Beverly Berry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know or have a belief of his reputation for peacefulness?

BEVERLY BERRY, FRIEND OF MICHAEL DUNN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. OK. And what is that?

BERRY: Never have I observed anything other than a very calm demeanor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Berry, on any of these special occasions, did you all play rap music?

BERRY: Play rap music?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma'am.

BERRY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were there any young black teenagers at any of these special occasions?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I object. If I can approach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now to discuss, CNN's Ashleigh Banfield in Jacksonville.

Ashleigh, let's begin with the witness who we saw most recently, 24- year-old Chris Dunn, son of Michael Dunn. It was his wedding, where the father had been the day before he drove to the gas station where he shot and killed a 17-year-old young man. What was the importance of that testimony today?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The defense attorney tried to put this witness on the stand to give us the state of mind, at least whether this father had been drinking or whether he was in any kind of bad mood and effectively went through the checklist, no, he didn't drink, he was not slurring. We didn't drink a lot. He wasn't slurring. He wasn't in a bad mood.

There was no animosity. It was all a wonderful event. Even though the parents are divorced, this is of course Chris Dunn talking about his dad, Michael, and his mother, long divorced and no animosity, sitting at the same tables and dancing with each other's family members. Ultimately, the defense attorney was trying to paint his client, Michael Dunn, as an easygoing guy who didn't have any amped-up issues, certainly not at this wedding anyway.

But then came Angela Corey with the cross-examination. It was pretty powerful, Brooke, because she said how many times have you seen your dad in the last 15 years? Three. How well do you know him? Not that well, it turns out. If you wanted a character witness up there, that's pretty tricky when you get a cross-examination that kicks it down to size pretty quickly.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: The defense is that it was self-defense, but the big question, of course, and you are there watching for this, whether or not Michael Dunn takes the stand. If you are a defense attorney and you heard all the details of the case, should he?

BANFIELD: Say that again?

BALDWIN: If you're a defense attorney and you know all the nitty- gritty of the case, do you think Michael Dunn, do you think should take the stand and what does he need to do when he does?

BANFIELD: Oh. You know what? That honestly is the toughest decision in any case. Every single defense attorney I have ever spoken with that was faced with that decision, it really tore them apart.

Many of them do really, truly make that decision moments before. It's really not -- it not as strategic as one thinks, because there are so many things that happen all the way along the line that maybe the average joe doesn't understand but that can open the door for a disaster down the road. A lot of times taking the stand is not just because you just want to get it off their chest or you just want them to see he was a good guy.

Taking the stand can strategically kill you because your client is not an expert and he may not know how far he can go before he does something that is detrimental to his case. And then there is always awesome cross-examination that rips you to shreds and shows you for who you might be, which is not always a nice guy which you want jurors to see. Not saying that that's this case. But that's always the really difficult decision.

In this case, though, Brooke, I don't know. The parade of witnesses I'm seeing right now is not helping me to get over the outrage I think a lot of people are feeling. They better come up with something better.

BALDWIN: OK. Maybe they put him on the stand and maybe he just hits that remorse home. I don't know if that will happen. We will wait to see. Michael Dunn again facing first-degree murder and attempted murder, three counts of attempted murder because there were three other individuals in that car. We will keep a close eye on the trial and we will also bring in Nancy Grace joining me in just about 15 minutes from now. She will react to the testimony we have seen today.

Michael Sam sacks quarterback and wins awards and at Missouri he led his team to 12 wins and to the Cotton Bowl. He also wants you to know one more thing. He is gay. In fact, he has poised himself to be the first openly gay player in NFL history. He said he is not going to let critics define him. Here's what he told ESPN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: How prepared are you for the things that people will yell from the stands?

MICHAEL SAM, NFL PROSPECT: I never -- and this is from high school, junior high, high school and college. I never focus on what people say and the fans. To me, I spend my entire focus on the game.

QUESTION: They can say some very hateful things, Michael.

QUESTION: I mean, everyone can say hurtful and hateful things, but I don't let stuff like that distract me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Michael Sam, he is now out and he is facing so many questions beyond his skills on the field about the draft and about his future teammates, so much else.

Joe Barkett is Michael Sam's agent.

Joe, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Brooke. BALDWIN: You're welcome. I understand Michael, he told his teammates last August and reading every word of this ESPN article, he told his parents -- he said he picked up the phone and called mom and dad last week to tell them. Tell me, how did he tell you and when did he tell you?

JOE BARKETT, AGENT FOR MICHAEL SAM: He told me on January 10, actually over the phone. He was first committed to another agent and him and I did not discuss his sexuality when I went to go visit him in Columbia.

Once he called me to tell me he was unhappy with his first agent, he said, Joe, there is a conversation we need to have before I can talk to you about being my agent. I said, what is that, Mike? He goes, I'm gay and I need to make sure you are OK with representing a gay player.

BALDWIN: Wow. What did you say?

BARKETT: I said of course, Mike. I have read rumors online before I came to visit you, but I didn't want to ask because I didn't find it appropriate. I'm not recruiting him -- wasn't recruiting him as a gay football player. I was recruiting him as an athlete, as a football player.

His sexual orientation and preference is none of my business and it doesn't bother me at all.

BALDWIN: Joe, in that phone conversation and in the weeks leading up to the ESPN, "New York Times" interview, how did Mike appear? Was he nervous, was he excited, was he at peace with this?

BARKETT: I think Mike was ready to make the announcement based off of what had happened the last few weeks.

When we were down at the Senior Bowl, Mike was getting a lot of attention from reporters and we were getting a lot of attention from scouts and front office personnel about his sexuality, not asking specifically if he was gay, but the reporters would say to him, Mike, we are here for you whenever you want to tell your story.

Normally, that means there is a story that they have ready to go and they are looking for a comment from Mike. We were worried about Mike's ability to tell the story his way getting taken away from him.

BALDWIN: He said in this piece he wants to tell his story and now he has. What shocks me is that, Joe, he tells his team and players and coaches back in August. He didn't even tell them to keep it a secret, but no one leaked it. It did not get out. Why do you think that is?

BARKETT: I find that remarkable and really special as well, because it shows you what a tight-knit locker room they had and how professional they all were at Missouri. Any one of the coaches or players could have gone to the press and said, this is a really big story, Mike Sam just came out to us, but not one person did so. It shows you that they're really a tight-knit community there. And I really respect them all very much for that.

BALDWIN: So, then, joe, Looking ahead to may, looking ahead to the draft, what do you think in your gut this will do for his prospects? Do you think it will cost him money, do you think it will help him, hurt him?

BARKETT: I don't think it will hurt him at all. I think if anything teams will look at it and see a guy who was honest and up front instead of waiting until after the draft to potentially make his announcement and then bring up questions of was he acting in a dishonest manner.

Mike was forward and he wants the team who drafts him to accept him for who he is and not the other way around where once they draft him, they are forced to accept him for who he is.

BALDWIN: Just being real. Not everyone is accepting. You still very much so have this old guard culture within the NFL.

Let me read you just a quote, Joe. Linebacker Jonathan Vilma of the Saints said last week -- quote -- "I think a gay player would not be accepted as much as we think he would be accepted. Imagine if he's the guy next to me and I get dressed naked and take a shower and the whole nine and it just so happens he looks at me. How am I supposed to respond?"

I know Michael addressed this in that ESPN interview, but just tell everyone, Joe, what would he say to that?

BARKETT: I think Mike would actually laugh it off. I don't think he would take it seriously, because he's always going to have naysayers.

Regardless of what the situation is, people will always be trying to get in his head because of this. He's aware of that. But Mike is a mentally strong guy. He's a lot of fun to be around, where I think the reaction from his Missouri teammates as well, where once he came out to them, they were all showering together and it was a locker room atmosphere, but everyone is professional at the same time.

Even though Mike is gay, he is not walking around the locker room acting as a sexual predator. He happens to be gay and a football player.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Saying I am not a predator. Joe Barkett, good luck to you and Mike. Thank you so much for coming on. We obviously and many people will be following his story through May. Thanks.

BARKETT: Thank you very much, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes.

Coming up, why in the world did a zoo kill a healthy giraffe, then cut up its body and feed it to the lions in front of -- look at this picture -- in front of children? I talked to the man in charge of this zoo today and we will play you his response next.

Plus, a man adrift for more than 13 months in the Pacific Ocean heads home and CNN was there as he boarded a plane way far away in the Marshall Islands. We are learning remarkable new details of his rescue. He communicated using charades. This guy drew pictures. We will explain how this Spanish version of the kid show "Dora the Explorer" played a role in the whole thing. Don't miss it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A Danish zoo is now being bombarded by backlash because it just showed lions and cougars devouring the carcass of a baby giraffe and this feeding happened in front of dozens of spectators, including little children.

Tell the story, just a heads-up, the images you're about to see are graphic so you may want to turn away. But just listen here. This 18- month-old giraffe was healthy, but according to officials here, this is the Copenhagen Zoo. The animal had to be euthanized because of these European laws on inbreeding.

See, this giraffe shared too many similar genes with other giraffes at this zoo. The killing which did not happen in public sparked the social media outrage. I talked to the zoo's scientific director in the hour and had a lot of questions for him and he sees this as educational.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENGT HOLST, ZOO OFFICIAL: We should be careful not to make the nature into a Disney World, where animals are always alive and they're always freed, et cetera, et cetera.

This is the real thing. And when we then feed it to the lions afterwards, this is either we feed them a horse or a cow. That's have to get the meat. They're carnivores. And now we could feed them a giraffe. I don't see any problem in that. This is what happened in Africa. It can happen in Copenhagen as well. I think the kids, they need to see sometimes what the real world is. And they don't -- it's not harmful in any way. It's what they need to know about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Our interview, by the way, went on much longer than that. If you want to hear the full defense, go to CNN.com/Brooke after the show.

By the way, one of the most respected wildlife experts in this country, Jack Hanna, absolutely vehemently disagreed with what happened here. He told CNN he found the incident the most abominable and most insensitive and ridiculous thing he had ever encountered.

Throughout the show today, we have been dipping into testimony in the trial of Michael Dunn, the Florida man charged with first-degree murder in the shooting death of a teenager and just a reminder, Michael Dunn could take the stand at any time. Moments ago, his son, his ex-wife took the stand. Jordan Davis, 17-year-old Jordan Davis was shot and killed, this November 2012.

This is all over a dispute over loud music in a gas station parking lot.

Nancy Grace, HLN's Nancy Grace, let me bring you in, because we talked about this before. But I have to ask you now, because we could see Michael Dunn take the stand, this defendant here, and he could show remorse. His defense attorneys could try to really humanize him for the jurors. But you know prosecuting. How would you cross-examine this man?

NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": There are times that you can cross- examine someone and someone that is not really your enemy. You can point out inconsistencies and you can show them actually in a polite and a good-natured way that they are mistaken that they didn't see or hear what they thought they saw or heard.

You can point out their criminal history and in a pretty congenial way, but when the defendant takes the stand, it ain't no tea party. All right? It's time to break him down and tear him apart because according to the state, he is lying. He not only shot this youth unarmed. The youth was unarmed, but then he lied about it, took off, didn't call 911, which maybe could have saved the life of Jordan Davis.

And so there is no way that you can do this with kid gloves, if he takes the stand. I don't think he will take the stand. Zimmerman did not take the stand and I think this guy has got too much to lose on cross-examination.

BALDWIN: Interesting. Today, we also saw the defense called Jordan Davis' father, the victim's father to the stand. Why would they do that?

GRACE: I thought that was cruel. I was called to the stand when my fiance was murdered. I was called by the state because I was the last one to really have a conversation with Keith before his murder, before he got to that location.

But the reason they claimed they called the victim's father to the stand which must have been heartbreaking for him was because the three other youths that are in the car, they came over to Jordan Davis' home following the incident like the day or so after. And the defense is trying to intimate through the victim's father that they were all there getting their stories straight.

BALDWIN: OK. Nancy Grace, we will see if Michael Dunn takes the stand.

GRACE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you, as always, very much. We watch you every night 8:00 p.m. Eastern on HLN.

These are the comments that had a lot of people fired up, and not just mothers. AOL's top man blaming the medical costs of two "distressed babies" for the company delaying its 401(k) contributions and now one of those moms has come forward. She has quite the message for the company's CEO.

Plus, a high-level debate in the Obama administration about whether to kill an American terror suspect involved with al Qaeda, the thing standing in the way with, the U.S. Constitution. We will talk to a lawyer to explain why. You are watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: An about-face and an apology from Tim Armstrong has not exactly quelled the furor over his comments last week.

He's the CEO of AOL. We told you this story on Friday, blamed covering the medical costs of two "distressed babies" and $1 million each for a company move to delay matching 401(k) contributions. He never specifically named any of these babies' parents here, but there is a name I want you to know now. Author Deanna Fei, wife of an employee, knew her daughter was being called out and wrote this response in Slate.

Let me just read part of it for you. She writes: "Let's set aside the fact that Armstrong, who took home $12 million in pay in 2012, felt the need to announce a cut in employee benefits on the very day that he touted the best quarterly earnings in years. For me and my husband -- who have been genuinely grateful for AOL's benefits, which are actually quite generous -- the hardest thing to bear has been the whiff of judgment in Armstrong's statement."

She also talked to NBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEANNA FEI, MOTHER: To me, there did sound like the implication that somehow we were greedy consumers of health care benefits and that we had kind of gobbled up more than our share of the pie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Armstrong has now reversed the retirement change that he had announced in the meeting. AOL will be matching the 401(k) contributions as it has before and he called Fei apologize and he talked about that on "The Today Show."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FEI: He spoke to me in a heartfelt way as the father of three kids to a fellow parent. His apology was heartfelt and I appreciated it and I do forgive him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, CNN digital editor at large Kelly Wallace and Olga Khazan, associate editor at "The Atlantic."

Olga, I would like to begin with you. Reading your piece, you write this article, vetting Armstrong's claim. I'm so glad you did this, because there were a lot of questions, right, so vetting Armstrong's claim regarding the $2 million these two babies, these "distressed babies" and infant care costs.

We know now from Deanna Fei in at least one of the cases that the medical care could indeed have run her or really ultimately the company a million dollars. She writes about this itty-bitty baby born I think it was over one pound. But the connection Tim Armstrong made with his company's 401(k), you say that makes zero sense. Tell us why.

OLGA KHAZAN, "THE ATLANTIC": The thing about big companies like AOL is that most of them are self-insured and we don't know specifically about AOL because they haven't commented on their specific insurance situation.

But when you are self-insured, your employees pay in their premiums and then you cover their medical costs. So, let's say there is some sort of major surgery or some sort of distressed baby or someone who requires a lot of care. Usually those companies will have bought what is called re-insurance, which is sort of like an insurance policy for your insurance policy. And it basically guards against big losses like a million dollars. Usually, they have liability caps that are below a million.

BALDWIN: That's the explanation at these big companies and maybe the lack of a connection here.

But, Kelly Wallace, to me, thinking about the story and especially just reading the Slate article last night, I think this is bigger than AOL, because this woman Deanna Fei in her piece, she said listen, he could have called out cancer patients, other folks related to AOL who needed a lot of money in medical costs, but instead -- do you think this speaks to -- I don't know if resentment is the right word but this feeling in the workplace toward pregnant women?

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I do.

I think people online have responded in droves because they do as well. Deanna, also she mentioned the quote the whiff of judgment, right? There is almost sort of that judgment call, that are these pregnancy cases in her words stealing, selfishly stealing a bigger pot from the health care pie?

You mentioned what about women with cancer and what about kids who have asthma and what obese people who are tapping into the health care pie? What about a guy who gets dramatically hurt running the marathon? Tim Armstrong didn't mention any examples like those and he mentioned the two cases involving pregnancy and that's where women are outraged and where they feel there is this inherent resentment, judgment, whatever you want to call it, sometimes against women in the workplace.

BALDWIN: I think too -- and, Olga, I want you to respond to this. I think it's also a word we just heard Deanna mention and that's greed or greedy, the greediness, because you have Armstrong who racked in some $12 million. He mentioned AOL has been doing really, really well business-wise. Then you have these retirement cutbacks. I think it resonates because of the greed factor, don't you think?

KHAZAN: Right. I think definitely employees they don't want to see this type of restructuring. They want to get their matching benefits throughout the year like they had been getting.

But one thing to note is that this type of change to retirements plans is not that unusual. IBM had actually already paved the way doing it the previous year. For companies that have a lot of turnover, maybe they don't want employees who leave in the middle of the year to leave with those matching benefits. This is becoming an occasional option that they will pursue.

BALDWIN: OK.

Olga Khazan, thank you. Kelly Wallace, as always, thank you.

Deanna Fei, the mom here of one of these so-called distressed babies, she will be talking tonight. So tune in. She will be talking to my colleague Erin Burnett. That's on "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starting at 7:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Coming up next, a high-level debate within the Obama administration about whether to kill a terror suspect. What's the holdup? He's an American. We will talk about that next and the complexities there.

Plus, do you recognize this man finding his seat on board a plane today? Maybe he looked like this a couple of days ago. This is the guy who was adrift in the Pacific Ocean for more than a year. We are learning all kinds of new details about this rescue, including what he had tied to his boat, and how a kids' TV show helped him communicate with natives who found him.

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