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Dunn Convicted On Attempted Murder, Hung Jury On Murder Charge In "Loud Music" Trial
Aired February 15, 2014 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I am Don Lemon. Thank you for joining us. It is close to the top of the hour. Almost 6:00 p.m. eastern here in New York, 6:00 p.m. eastern. We are following the breaking news of the so-called "loud music" trial in Jacksonville, Florida. Scratch that. I'm sorry. I don't want to say "loud music" murder trial anymore. It is the Jordan Davis murder trial. I'm sorry about saying that all evening. Jordan Davis. A teenager was killed here because somebody did not like their loud music, but it is the Jordan Davis murder trial. And everyone on social media, I hear you. You're absolutely right.
Just about an hour ago, jurors deliberating the fate of Michael Dunn sent a note to the judge. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEALEY: We have reached a verdict on four of five counts. We are unable to reach a verdict on count one or any of the lesser included offenses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The jury is deadlocked on the murder charge against Dunn, but have reached a verdict on the other four counts. The jury deadlocked on the murder charge against Dunn but have reached a verdict on the other four counts.
Dunn is charged with killing 17-year-old Jordan Davis back in November of 2012, after an argument over loud music. He is also facing attempted murder charges for firing into the car, which was also carrying Davis' three friends.
The testimony in this trial has been unbelievable and emotional and unpredictable. Let's look back at the week of testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just heard gunshots at the gas station.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring help, please, now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone has been shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was coming from over at the gas station, and then a red, and it looked like a Dodge Durango, and it with was like pop, pop, pop.
MICHAEL DUNN, DEFENDANT: I had never been so scared in my life. And that is when I reached into the glove box and un-holstered many my pistol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He had about nine shots.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Gun down by a man who didn't like the loud music that my son and his friend played in their car.
DUNN: (INAUDIBLE). It was not an issue of loud music, but it was a n issue of them threatening my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once all of the facts come out, it is going to be very clear that Mr. Dunn acted responsibly and as any responsible firearms owner would have acted in the same circumstances.
DUNN: And he goes, you are dead (bleep).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I said, baby, let me give you a hug. Let me give you a hug. He says, mom, I have to go. And I said, please, let me give you a hug. That is the last time I saw is him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We are covering these breaking developments from all angles here on CNN. And as I have said before, this is adult con conversation, so be ready for that.
Joining me now are my colleagues, CNN's Martin Savidge, legal analyst Paul Callan, criminal defense attorneys Joey Jackson and Holly Hughes, clinical psychologist Jeff Gardere and CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill and on the phone, the host of "Legal View," Ashleigh Banfield, jury consultants Richard Gabriel, HLN host, Nancy Grace, Ben Hipolitan and Jane Velez-Mitchell.
When I say we have it covered from all angles, I absolutely mean it. And joining us as well is Ben Crump, the attorney for the family of Trayvon Martin. We will get all of these people in the coming hours as we await the jury's verdict and what they come up with after getting that instruction from the judge.
To our Martin Savidge first who is on the ground in Jacksonville, Florida and has been covering this from the very beginning. The community is outraged he says this is more than the murder of a teenager. That is big enough. But this has become a cause for the entire community if not the entire country, Martin Savidge.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it has become across, I mean, as this case has progressed more and more people have learned about the face of Jordan Davis. That is the face. That is the young man who died. And so, as a result of what may come out of this trial, it could be that the lesser charges of attempted murder, which are going to bring serious time if Michael Dunn has been found guilty on those. It is not to be shrugged off, but it is not a murder conviction and in no way brings justice to the family and to what many people believe is the primary issue in this particular case. So, that is why if it is a hung jury on that particular first count of murder, I think you can guarantee, even though it is discretionary, that there will be another trial on this particular front.
Right now, people are gathered outside of the courthouse and they are waiting for further updates.
You know, I just had a texting conversation with the attorney who represents Jordan Davis' family to say have you got any idea how long this jury may reconsider as they have been asked by the judge. He pointed out a good thing. He said, you know, this jury has been extremely thorough, and it is quite possible that they may not come back tonight. That they could decide to sleep on it, and come back tomorrow. We have to simply wait and see. There is no guarantee that it is going to be a matter of a few hours.
LEMON: Martin Savidge, as you are talking to the people top ground there, I'm interested, their honest reaction to the latest developments?
SAVIDGE: Well, I mean, you know, everybody who is outside of the courthouse right now is supporting Jordan Davis. So I have to tell you that it is a one-sided conversation that you are going to have. I think people, one, are just -- they have been surprised. What is taking so long? How is it possible that this decision could have any way taken four days, and then on top of that, how could anybody be hung up on the issue of murder? That is the conversation that you will hear from those who are demonstrating outside of the courthouse. And again, they are the ones that are here supporting Jordan Davis and his family. Michael Dunn, you will find or I have not found those to talk to get their version.
LEMON: All right, Marty, standby, we are going to need you, because there are going to be developments tonight as we know. That the jury is in the jury room with the instructions from the judge. They are deliberating again after saying that they cannot come to an agreement on the most important one of the charges, count one which is the murder of Jordan Davis.
The parents of Trayvon Martin sent a message to the parents of Jordan Davis condemning, condemning what is going on in the courtroom down in Florida. Condemning racial profile in Florida. They say it serves as a basis for the shooting and killing teenagers. They said quote "no matter the verdict, the fact that Ron and Lucia, or people call her, Lucy, will never see their son again and it will not change. We know the pain all too well, and they do, and we walk with Jordan in defining his legacy and continuing the fight against unjust gun laws."
The family attorney for Trayvon Martin's family is Benjamin Crump. You know him well. He joins me now. And also, attorney Mark O'Mara is on the phone.
What's the family is saying about this? And what do you think of these latest developments, Benjamin Crump?
BENJAMIN CRUMP, MARTIN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, it is extremely troubling, Don. You know, when you think about the fact that Dunn could have drove away. He could have called the police. There are so many things that he could have done versus trying to take the law into his own hands. And as we said in the Trayvon Martin case, if his killer was exonerated every Tom, Dick, and Harry that kills somebody was going to say that they were standing their ground even if they technically say self-defense. And what does he does, he pleas the same, he goes to have pizza and a glass of wine. It is just troubling to so many people.
LEMON: Benjamin Crump, can I jump in here, because it is just read anything into this. You appeared very emotional about what is going on. Are you reliving this all over again? Am I seeing that right?
CRUMP: I think not only me, but many people around the country, and many people who have sons and daughters and nephews and cousins like Jordan Davis, like Trayvon Martin who are just so fed up with the fact that the rules are different when it is our children dead on the ground, Don. There is no way to get around it. The rules are different.
LEMON: Mr. Crump standby. I want to bring in Mark O'Mara who is on the other side in the George Zimmerman trial.
Mark O'Mara, many people have compared this to the George Zimmerman trial and the Trayvon Martin murder trial. There are some similarities. There are some thing that are different. But in this case, this appear to be more clear cut than even the George Zimmerman trial. I'm not sure that you will agree with that, but to most people it does. And now, you have this.
What happens next when it comes to this jury, the jury instruction, and what is this called the Andrew charge --
MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via phone): Allen charge, yes.
LEMON: Allen charge that they have been charged with. How long does that usually happen when the jury is charged with the Allen charge, how much longer does it usually take?
O'MARA: Well, it is usually a couple of hours, because the they follow what the judge said, which is go back in there, talk to your witnesses and then come to a decision, either people are already entrenched and not going to change or they may actually, the two or three that are maybe holding out can change.
I do think there need to be a bit of a recalibration here that I want to get to. First of all, I think we need to agree that this jury is doing a good and a great potentially job. It is a diverse jury that has been spent 27 hours looking at the evidence and trying to wade through it and fairly complicated issues of self-defense and stand your ground and first-degree murder. So, first of all, I think we need to commit that we are going to the listen and understand what this jury decides first of all.
Second off all, let's also remember, Don, you said a while ago that this is denigrating the life of a young black male. I think that we are going to find out that the jury is doing the opposite. I think we are going to find out that this jury is going to convict, Don, on either attempted first or attempted second-degree murder for his shots, those totally unjustified shots, at least the last three when the driver was trying to get out of there, and he is going to serve 20 years each just for shooting at one, two, three, young black males. So I don't think that is not the issue. But I said early on that I think the state overcharged for the first-degree murder case and I think that maybe what this jury is trying to wrestle if it is first- degree murder --
LEMON: Mark, Mark. I have news here, but that is not what I am saying here. What I'm saying is that on the first charge, the charge that has to do with Jordan Davis, if they can't come to some sort of an agreement about that, that is the one that is the value of life. I understand he is going to jail for a long time, I get that.
O'MARA: No, no. I hear you, Don. I really do. But here is the response. If they are arguing between first and second degree, then, they are not concerned about Jordan Davis not being worth their consideration. They just are looking at the law and saying maybe this isn't first degree because where is the premeditation. And again I find this --
LEMON: OK, I defer to you. You are the attorney. I understand what you are saying. We are good with that. We are good with that. But when you first hear that the possibility of a hung jury or a mistrial on that one charge, the first reaction is what? Are you kidding me? And by the way, I'm being told that the jury has another question. The jury has another question, Mark O'Mara, and as soon, we are standing by, there is no picture in the courtroom, but as soon as the judge comes in and hears from the jury, and gets whatever the note that the jury has given him, he is going to read it, and we he will let you know. Would you guys like to go to a break real quick just before the judge comes out or you want to keep going?
OK. Don't go anywhere. We have a lot of peak things to get to. It is going to a long evening. The jury in the Jordan Davis murder trial has another question for the judge. What does that mean? Maybe they have come to a consensus, maybe not.
Back on the other side of the short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news. We are back and movement in the courtroom down in Jacksonville, Florida. The jury has a question. Here is the judge. Let's listen in.
JUDGE RUSSELL HEALEY, DUVAL COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: OK. We have reviewed the weaknesses of our position and have more to talk about. If we are up able to agree and reach a verdict, is the entire case mistrial or is the single count mistrial?
I think that they didn't mean it exactly the way they said it, because it says if we are unable to agree and reach a verdict, which doesn't really make sense, but I think that I know what they mean, if they are unable to agree, is the entire case mistrial or just that count, and I think that the instruction, well, the instruction doesn't really say that count. I think that I said it, but I would repeat it again, and so my answer to them would be if you are unable to agree on a verdict as to that count, only that count is mistrial and the other verdicts stand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you say after? The written instructions --
HEALEY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that is in with the instructions that you gave and the actual written instructions of the case --
HEALEY: Well, yes, I think that when I read it, you are right. I didn't say case, I said count, but that is the instruction does say case, you are right. It shows how carefully these folks are looking at everything. All right, so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My request, judge, would be to redraft the standard instruction with your words, because it should say on any count of which you cannot agree and that can be sent out. Or we can bring them out and explain it to them, and tell them to write in each count instead of the case?
HEALEY: Does somebody have an extra copy there?
Basically in the last couple of lines, it says that I will declare this case mistrial, I think I said count, but I should have changed that word from case to count. I mean, I could have them bring their instructions out, and tell them to scratch out case and put count in there, so they will have it with them. But I want to answer the question for them, and say that, no, the entire case is not mistrial, only the count that you cannot reach a verdict on would be mistrial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, I think that we can bring out the case that it did say case in written form, but it is count, and you can explain that.
HEALEY: Right. So, that is OK to explain that way, Mr. Strolla?
CORY STROLLA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, your honor.
HEALEY: Mr. Dunn, is that all rig right to explain it that way? State?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, your honor.
HEALEY: All right, bring the jurors on here, please and tell them to bring, if you would, the most recent instruction in with them, please. Yes, it says 4.1 jury deadlock.
LEMON: All right. The judge has asked for the jury to be brought in, and as we wait for them, I want the go to HLN hosts Jane Velez- Mitchell and Nancy Grace.
Nancy, a former prosecutor e here, and what do you make of the question that the jury just asked of the judge?
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST, NANCY GRACE (via phone): Well, obviously, if they are mistrying or hanging on one charge, and they have a reached a verdict on the other four charges, the only charge that is different and dissimilar from the others is the first charge of murder. So, obviously, they have reached a decision on the other four charges. Now, the Allen charge, the dynamite, the hammer charge. That was about an 1896 case out of Arkansas where the judge can try to convince the jury to try to reach a verdict. What this says here to me if they accept self-defense, then it would be an outright acquittal on all charges. That suggests along that rational line of thinking that they are coming back with a --
LEMON: Nancy, we are listening to the judge as they are coming back.
GRACE: OK.
HEALEY: I have a question and for the record, the question is that we have reviewed the weaknesses of our position and have more to talk about. If we are unable to agree, and I think that this means to reach a verdict instead of "and" is the entire case mistrial or is the single count mistrial? Only the single count is mistrial and not the entire case. If you have reached a verdict as to the other counts, they stand. And perhaps, if you look at the -- I see the pens already going, so I see where you guys are really very, very good. I read it, and I said the word count, and you noticed that, didn't you? You guys are something. But you are correct. Here at the bottom, you are looking at the second to the last line. It says case and that is incorrect, and that is my fault, it is only the count. So if you have ultimately reached a verdict that is one thing, and if you have ultimately not, then only that count is mistrial. OK?
So, if you need to delineate that, that is why I brought it out, because I suspected that you caught that. So, that answers your question. You go can return to the jury room and continue your deliberations. Thank you all very, very much.
Any exceptions or objections to what was said to the jury from the state?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, sir.
HEALEY: From the defense?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, your honor.
HEALEY: Mr. Dunn?
DUNN: No, sir.
HEALEY: OK. Well, that just solidifies that these folks are very detailed people, and they have paid very, very close attention to everything, and they have analyzed this thing from every angle whether they can agree or not is another matter, but, you certainly could never fault them for their effort and in how they have conducted themselves throughout the trial. I could not be as I said once before, I could not be more proud of these folks in the work that they have done to try to get this case to a resolution.
So, I will probably have a little bit more to say about that once we get their final decision, but I do want everybody to keep that in mind and recognize that they are what makes this system work. And that, we need to respect whatever their verdict is, and respect the position that they have been put in, and that they are in, and the fact that they have been putting their lives on hold for the last 13 days to make very, very difficult decisions. And I just -- I will never have enough words of thanks that I could give them for their effort. So anyway, we will be recess until we hear more from them, thank you, ladies and gentlemen.
LEMON: OK. That is Judge Russell L. Healey down in Duval County in Jacksonville, Florida that just given the jury more or actually clarify their questions. We were speaking to host, HLN host Nancy Grace just before the question came in.
Nancy, finish your thought and you may have more of a better perspective on it now that you have actually heard from the judge and the jury.
GRACE: No. You know, what I could give you a lot of legal jargon right now, but what it boils down to is that they are hung on count one, murder charge. They can't agree on murder, they can't agree on second-degree murder, voluntary, they don't agree on any of that. They cannot even reach a compromise verdict on the lesser included charges. It sounds like they have a verdict on the other counts which are attempted murder on each of the other three boys in the car, and the fifth count is firing on the vehicle.
What is stumping me though is that if they accepted Dunn's self- defense, and most court watchers agree that Jordan Davis did not have a gun. He was a kid going out to the mall that night. If they accept Michael Dunn's self-defense theory, this will be acquittal outright, because if you are defending yourself, you have a right to fire back. So, while the jury verdict may seem inconsistent to us, it is not to them. It sounds like a conviction on the other four counts and a not guilty or the mistrial on the first.
LEMON: Well. Nancy, when we assume that they say reach a verdict, and Paul Callan brought this up, we are assuming that it is guilty, but maybe it is not guilty on those counts, Nancy?
GRACE: Yes, I agree. They could have -- see what is inconsistent with that and why I am saying it is inconsistent to us if they accept the self-defense, it would be an acquittal outright on everything, because he would have been justified in shooting, get it. So if they have got verdicts on one or four and not on the other, then that doesn't make sense. If they are hung on one, and convict and have decided on the others, that suggest that they are rejecting the self- defense. See where I am going with that? If they accepted, it would be across the board acquittal.
LEMON: Very quickly, go ahead Paul.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, but the point, of course, is that I agree with Nancy here, if they think he had the right to use force and that is why they are not convicting of murder, how bizarre would it be if they convict him of attempted murder of the other kids that he was not shooting at? It would be very a strange verdict indeed.
GRACE: Well, maybe it is self-defense against Jordan Davis, but not the other three.
LEMON: Go ahead.
JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. But it could. But in the case, remember, there was delayed shooting as well, and we saw when we that surveillance tape, and we heard the pop, pop, pop. So, if you take the fact that there was shooting to initially to the Jordan Davis and accepted that is justified, then --
CALLAN: Well, that could be the second set of shots.
JACKSON: And was that second set of shots justified and that could be the contempt.
CALLAN: Right.
LEMON: Hold that thought.
Nancy, thank you very much. Nancy, we may be getting back to you if we do hear something tonight. We appreciate it.
GRACE: Please do, I'm on pins and needles.
LEMON: We got your number. We know your number by heart here. Thank you, Nancy Grace.
GRACE: Bye guys.
LEMON: Listen, bye-bye for now.
And listen, standing by, can we get Jeff Gardere up and holly Hughes. They are standing by for us. We can put them in the double box. And then, also thought, the host of "Jane Velez-Mitchell" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell will join us next. We can't get it. Don't worry about those boxes. That is the courthouse down in Jacksonville, Florida.
A very, very short break and more analysis here on CNN as we await the jury.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. After I heard from the judge, didn't make me feel any better, just because I am speaking in a calmer tone now, it does not mean that I am any less un-passion on the possibility, even the possibility of a hung jury on the count one. And I know this person has a lot of passion about this as well because she has been e-mailing me, she has been calling me to get on and I want to hear her voice.
Jane Velez-Mitchell of HLN. What is going on, Jane? JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST, JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL (via phone): Well, I'm disturbed. I am very, very upset about the prospect of a mistrial on the main count, the murder of Jordan Davis. If in fact that's what happened, it basically means Stand Your Ground is a license to kill young black men with little provocation, make no mistake, that's what it means.
And as I watch this trial, sometimes it seemed like the victim was on trial. I mean, the defense was very clever. They framed the debate from the outset, they had the prosecution on the defense the whole time so the prosecution, Don, spent their entire -- practically their entire case trying to prove that the victim did not have a gun, that the victim did not threaten, that the victim did not advance on Mr. Dunn.
Again, it seemed like the victim was on trial.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: But --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the defendant on the other hand at times came off as a choir boy. He wore a sweater. He -- the defense brought on witnesses who testified as to his character, how he was calm and peaceful.
Now we know he wrote a jailhouse letter that was filled with racial overtones. That never got before the jury. I personally interviewed his former neighbor who claimed that Mr. Dunn had racial attitudes who felt minorities were taking over the country and whites were under attack. That was -- nobody even attempted to introduce that before the verdict, and --
LEMON: But Jane -- Jane, isn't that --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there's this big argument oh yes --
LEMON: Isn't that the case?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beg your pardon?
LEMON: That's the case here, but that was also the case -- that was also the case in -- with Trayvon Martin, what he did outside -- what his school records, all of -- every -- all of his background, whether or not he had marijuana in the system. All those things. At times it seems like Trayvon Martin was on trial. Now it seems like Jordan Davis is on trial for this particular case.
And it happens a lot with certain -- with certain people who are involved with crimes. It seems like the victim actually goes on trial. I don't know if that's race. I don't know what that is, but it does happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I have to say this. I have to say it's the same prosecution team, Don, and they didn't learn their mistake. They didn't learn to humanize the victim. Where were the baby pictures? Where were the pictures which are heartbreaking, which I showed on my show of him as a toddler, of him as a little kid? He was adorable.
I look at him and I said, he looks like a young Barack Obama at one point.
LEMON: Yes. Yes, and even --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But where do they humanize the victim?
LEMON: But even the jurors said come on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They didn't --
JOE JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, to Jane's point.
LEMON: Go ahead.
JACKSON: And to Jane's point, and I think Jane is very disturbed by this, and I just want to talk about this for a minute.
The concern was is that Michael Dunn testifies and then of course there are these character witnesses to attest to, you know, what a wonderful person he is. Then of course we know that there are these letters from the jail that, you know, speak to a less than -- let's say, a fair reasonable and balanced person that he was. And Jane has made the point repeatedly why were those letters and those indications as to his prior background and, you know, the person that he was, why were those not able to come into trial?
Why was there not a depiction of who this man really was? And the concern is, and Jane and I have talked about this a number of times, the concern is we get it, listen, it's prejudicial, we don't want to make judgments against a defendant by virtue of what they may have said or done, or maybe, you know, you get the indication that they're racist or something else.
However, once he puts his character in issue, the question then becomes, could he have been attacked on that issue? And could the jury have gotten a more clearer depiction of who he really was and I think that's very disturbing.
LEMON: OK. All right. OK. Jane, hold your thought. Paul, I know you want to get in, hold your thought.
Holly, I'm up against the break. Holly Hughes, you don't agree with this, do you?
HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What? No, I --
LEMON: You don't --
HUGHES: Here's what I am saying. The baby pictures would not have been admissible, the problem here is the prosecution spent their entire case chasing the defense's tail, Don. When Cory Strolla stood up in his closing and accused the state of they don't have a strong case and they know they don't, because they're now asking you for lesser included.
LEMON: Yes.
HUGHES: John Guy got up, and goes, I don't want lesser included, no, don't do that. It's first degree or nothing. You never chase the opposite side. Your argument is strong. You charge what you believe in.
LEMON: OK.
JACKSON: Argue the evidence.
LEMON: Jeff Gardere, again, I got to get to a break. I'm sorry, producers, but I want to know, why does it feel like the victims are on trial in these cases rather than the person who's actually on trial?
JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Because of the word prejudice. The fact that these are young black males who have been victims. We see it over and over again. We have to prove that they were good people. We have prove that they didn't have a criminal background. We have to prove that they were equal.
What it really tells us is that we don't have the same standards for them.
LEMON: Yes.
GARDERE: We think that they are less than human. That's still a problem.
LEMON: Yes. If you -- but the law should be the same whether you kill a good person or a bad person, you still killed somebody, right?
HUGHES: Right.
LEMON: That's all I'm saying. We'll be back. Right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We are back now on CNN with the breaking news coverage. This is happening down in Florida. I am Don Lemon and we're covering the Michael Dunn murder trial or the Jordan Davis murder trial. Obviously, Michael Dunn is on trial for murdering Jordan Davis.
Here's what's going on. Probably -- I'm getting my times mixed up here, close to 5:00, about 4:40, 4:45, the jury had a question for the judge. 4:45 Eastern. They had a question for the judge. The judge brought the jury in. The jury said that they had reached a verdict on four counts. Couldn't come to a decision on account number one. The first-degree murder charge. And so the judge instructed them with the Allen charge to go back in to come to an agreement. Just about 20 minutes ago, the jury again said we have another question, this question had to do with a mistrial. If there was one charge that they couldn't come to an agreement on, would there be a mistrial, that means the -- would that mean the whole thing be mistried, and the judge said no, just that particular count. OK? So there can be a partial verdict here, if that makes sense.
Does that make sense? I'm asking the attorneys here? I'm asking my attorneys here.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
LEMON: All right. And speaking of the attorneys, I want to go now to Mark O'Mara. Mark O'Mara, of course, defended George Zimmerman in the George Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin murder trial. And then Benjamin Crump, Trayvon Martin's family's attorney.
We were talking about the value of life and then not being able to come to a consensus on the first-degree murder charge. I'm going to go to Mark O'Mara first.
You completely disagree if they don't come to some sort of consensus on this, you don't think that they're saying something about the value of a young life here?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, no, I don't want to say that. All I was saying before was that we have to give this jury credit for the work that they're putting in on the case.
LEMON: Absolutely.
O'MARA: Certainly this is the question where we interviewed the jury afterwards, and they said, you know, we were hung because between second degree and first degree, and I think we'd all acknowledge that they certainly are looking at a young -- the death of a young black male and saying it's significant, but they couldn't decide on the legal definition of what happened that day.
Now if they were coming back saying it's first degree or we're really concerned about the self-defense, then, yes, you know, we know, and Don, as we've talked about that I have represented young black males in the system for the past 30 years, I know very well how they are mistreated or treated differently than the general population.
So we have to look at what the jury is trying to wage through, a very difficult standard that is confused even when you add self-defense to it. So I don't think that they're not paying attention to the loss of a life. My concern for the Davis family is that they don't have closure. One way or the other, this is just yet another nightmare that they have to go through for the next several months until this case is retried if in fact the jury can't decide that it's first degree, second degree or even if there's a question about self- defense.
LEMON: Yes. Listen, I don't think anyone is putting the jury on trial here. You heard what the judge said, the judge said listen, I -- he praised the jury for being meticulous, taking out their notes, taking meticulous notes and working very hard. No one begrudges them over that, that's not what we're saying.
I think what people are concerned about is this Stand Your Ground law, Mark O'Mara, and you should know that, and why, why it seems that people can and -- case that is open and shut murder someone, they're the ones who approach the person, kill them and then get away with it. That's what I think people are concerned about.
O'MARA: Well --
LEMON: Go ahead.
O'MARA: Yes, and I'll tell you, I think this may have happened because of the Zimmerman case. And I said this a few months ago. I think that 100 million Americans have the wrong idea about self- defense and about Stand Your Ground, because I think that a lot of people got this idea that you could actually stand your ground meaning that you can do more than you could have done before the statute change.
You don't get to stand your ground unless you're already in reasonable fear of imminent great bodily injury, I think there's a whole bunch of people -- let's not forget that Dunn did what he did about six months after George Zimmerman and all of that, so I'm wondering if this whole Stand Your Ground thing may have emboldened both Dunn and a number of other people who now believe they can take the law more into their own hands.
LEMON: Yes.
O'MARA: I don't perceive the Stand the Ground statute to have been something to tell us we can do more than we could have done before. I think you have to be in immediate fear of your life before you take out a gun, and we are taking out our guns way too often on people. We're taking them out not just on young black males, we're taking them out on each other, we're taking them out on spouses. We're doing it way too much.
LEMON: OK --
O'MARA: But in this particular case, the way he acted, if in fact his defense had presented enough evidence or at least some evidence to suggest why Dunn did what he did, and I criticized him for not doing as a good job as I think he could have done in that regard.
LEMON: OK. OK.
O'MARA: Then that maybe something that the juries have to wade through.
LEMON: All right. Mark O'Mara, I want to get Benjamin Crump.
Go ahead, because my producers are telling you really want to get in on this. Go ahead. BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR TRAYVON MARTIN'S FAMILY: Well, I'll just say this, Don, I don't know, as a lawyer, what happens in America where if Trayvon Martin would have killed George Zimmerman or Jordan Davis kills Michael Dunn, a jury doesn't convict them of first-degree murder. And we can say, the respect for the process and the system, but it's real about American society and the value of young black males' lives.
In every phase of this case, Trayvon, it was as if they are put on trial, and that is troubling, because the precedent is set for the next person who kills one of our children to say, hello, they were not held accountable, they came with this imaginary fear of Stand Your Ground, and it is just troubling. And so we can try to dance around it, and pretend that it doesn't exist.
I'm a black male, and I have been a black male my whole life, and I'm a member of the bar, and so I see it from both angles, from being in my community, and then being with my colleagues. And I have to tell you the rules are different.
LEMON: Very well put. Very well put. Just before I say something that I shouldn't say on television, thank you, Mr. Crump, thank you, Mark O'Mara, I really appreciate that.
I'm going to say it a little bit. You know this judge, no one is begrudging this jury or no one is putting this jury on trial. The judge said that this jury has given up 17 days of their life to deal with this. Agreed. This family has given up 17 years and probably 80 or 90 more years with a teenager who is dead, because someone else could not mind their own business.
Break. We're back after it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news on CNN. I'm Don Lemon. So the jury is hung up, the jury is hung up in the Michael Dunn-Jordan Davis murder trial. They've asked to see the judge twice. With two questions.
I have been speaking about it with a number of people here on CNN but none more emotional and heartfelt than Trayvon Martin family's attorney Benjamin Crump.
And Benjamin Crump, I think you said something to me, I was going to let you go, have dinner and then come back in case there was a verdict, but guess what, I think what you said to me in the commercial break is very important.
Please tell the country what you just said to me.
CRUMP: Absolutely, Don. It is important how much this system breaks our hearts sometimes, and especially with Trayvon's parents, and we pray for justice for the Jordan Davis' family. But whatever the verdict is, we must respect that, we must not do what we believe the killers of our children in these two cases have done, take the law into their own hands. We must be orderly and maintain peace at all costs.
That's what Jordan would want, that's what his parents would want, that's what Trayvon would want and that's what his parents would want.
LEMON: Thank you very, very much, Benjamin Crump. A very emotional Benjamin Crump.
We'll see you when there's a verdict, OK?
CRUMP: Thank you.
LEMON: I want to get back down to Florida now. And Sunny Hostin is our legal analyst. And Sunny is also down in Florida with Florida Congresswoman Corrine Brown and the Florida congresswoman has been speaking out really for a long time about this Stand Your Ground law. Both ladies are with us.
So it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be perfect. Don't worry about it. I hear the director going no, no, no, just put them up.
So, first, Florida Congresswoman, have you spoken at all to the Davis family today?
REP. CORRINE BROWN (D), FLORIDA: I have been with them for the past, you know, three or four days, and keep in mind tomorrow would be Jordan's birthday, 19 years old. And what are we doing here? It just doesn't make any sense.
LEMON: Yes.
BROWN: And regardless of how the verdict comes out --
LEMON: OK.
BROWN: -- we've got to deal with Stand Your Ground.
LEMON: So, Representative --
BROWN: Because it's a license to kill.
LEMON: Representative, you probably don't know this.
BROWN: Yes.
LEMON: So I'm going to -- I don't mean to cut you off. There is activity inside the courtroom, both you and Sunny need to get back in. So go do your thing and we'll get back to you.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And Don, there's a --
LEMON: Go ahead, Sunny.
HOSTIN: And Don, let me say this, there are some rumors going around that there is a verdict, there is not a verdict. There is a question.
LEMON: OK. HOSTIN: There is a question. And so we will go back into the courtroom.
LEMON: All right.
HOSTIN: But I do want to add --
LEMON: OK.
HOSTIN: -- that when we were just there in the courtroom, the jury actually looked pretty good. They are looking very --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Sunny, I'm tell you, I'm being told that you need to -- that you guys need to go pretty soon.
BROWN: OK. We're going.
LEMON: Because they're going to be -- OK? Thank you.
HOSTIN: Heading there now.
BROWN: OK.
LEMON: Thank you, guys.
BROWN: We're going.
LEMON: Appreciate it.
OK. Listen, let's get back to my guys here. Would -- you know, we have been going around and around about Stand Your Ground, Stand Your Ground, Stand Your Ground, and what it means in Florida. Is it different in Florida than what it is in New York and what it is anywhere else?
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Yes.
CALLAN: It's radically different. You know, I was looking --
JACKSON: You have the definition.
CALLAN: You know, I was looking here at the two statutes, and you know, Joey and I have both tried the murder cases as prosecutors and as defense attorneys in both states. In Florida if you feel that you are threatened and that you have to use force to protect yourself, you can stand your ground and fire back and use deadly physical force.
New York and many other states has a law that says you cannot use that deadly force if you can retreat in safety.
JACKSON: Yes. CALLAN: On this fact pattern, he could have stepped on the gas if he really felt threatened and sped away, and he would have been out of harm's way, which is why in New York this would have been an impossible case to win.
JACKSON: Right.
CALLAN: Frankly, I'm surprised, even in Florida that it's not an impossible case to win but from a defense standpoint on this fact pattern, but the Stand Your Ground law is a license to kill. And I say that because when you're confronted with this thing that put you in fear, in a state like New York, you've got to think twice before you kill the other guy because you've got to say, if I'm wrong, I'm going to be the one who winds up in prison.
JACKSON: Absolutely.
CALLAN: In states like Florida, it's pull out your gun and shoot.
(CROSSTALK)
CALLAN: Yes.
LEMON: Finish your thought -- don't finish your thought. Here's the judge, there's another question.
JUDGE RUSSELL HEALY, DUVAL COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Before I bring the jury out, let me say this. I know that you have all anxiously awaited this day. This case has been pending for approximately 15 months. And it obviously has affected many lives, and this is a very, very emotional time. I understand that.
To this point, you've all conducted yourselves as I have requested, and you've done so gracefully here in the courtroom. I would ask you to continue to abide by my rules of decorum and ask you to please refrain from any emotional outbursts once you hear the verdict read. If you feel as though you might not be able to contain yourself, I would appreciate it if you would excuse yourself.
This case is not about winning or losing.
Remember, also, as I mentioned a few minutes ago before we broke last that we must respect the jury's verdict. This group, as I said, has worked extremely hard. I've never seen a case where deliberations have gone on for this length of time and with this type of dedication by these folks.
As I mentioned, they've put their lives on hold, and worked very, very hard and diligently, they didn't ask for this assignment. They were summoned to jury duty, but they embraced their civic duty, and they are to be commended for it and they're to be respected for it. So I ask you to just please keep that in mind and please keep any comments or emotional outbursts to yourself when the verdicts are read.
Thank you. All right. With that said, let's bring the jurors on out. LEMON: OK. So the judge has said that there appears to be a verdict. That's it sounds like. And he has given instructions, no outbursts in the courtroom. So this jury that has been deliberating for four days now is about to come in and hand their verdict down on Michael Dunn, whether they've reached -- they have reached a consensus, some sort of consensus on count one that they had trouble with a little bit earlier.
Will it be a hung jury on that count? And we have assumed that on the other counts that it would be guilty -- most people have been assuming that but we don't know.
CALLAN: No, we don't. It could be an acquittal of those counts. But we'll have to see.
LEMON: OK. It appears that the jury is in. Let's listen.
HEALY: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I understand you have now reached verdicts on all counts? No. All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge?
HEALY: Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are deadlocked on (INAUDIBLE).
HEALY: All right. Let me ask you to step into the jury room for just one second so I can speak to the lawyers and I'll have you brought back out in just a minute, all right?
Mr. Cory or Mr. Guy or Miss Wolfson?
ERIN WOLFSON, PROSECUTOR: Judge, we believe that you should read which count they are deadlock and now the foreman has announced that you have a separate verdict form, and make sure that they have not checked anything, and declare that one count of mistrial, and then proceed to the other verdicts?
HEALY: All right. Mr. Strolla?
CORY STROLLA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Judge, we agree. I think at this point they had previously said that they had four counts and they're still deadlocked. Normally, we do a multiple Allen charge but (INAUDIBLE) with the normal hours, extraordinary hours, but they are going to put in another Allen charge would be necessary, Judge, to be fruitful.
HEALY: Quite frankly, not -- I don't believe it's allowed by law.
WOLFSON: We agree with your honor.
HEALY: All right. Mr. Dunn, you understand the situation, and understand that apparently one case, one count would be declared a mistrial?
MICHAEL DUNN, DEFENDANT: Yes, your honor. HEALY: All right. OK. Then bring the jurors back in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jurors are entering the courtroom.
HEALY: All right. Sorry about that, ladies and gentlemen. You can have a seat.
I see Juror 7, you appear to be the foreperson. If you'll just hand the verdict forms to the bailiff, please.
All right. We have verdicts in counts two, three, four and five. I have the verdict form in count one, there are no markings on it, but I will provide it to the clerk for the record. And based on the jury's inability to reach a verdict as to count one, I would declare that mistried, and we will talk about how we will proceed with regard to that in a moment. The other verdict forms are in order, and I will give them to the clerk for publishing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the Circuit Court of the Fourth Judicial Circuit in and for Duval County, Florida, Case no. 16 2012 CF 011572 AXXXMA Division, CRD. The State of Florida versus Michael David Dunn, the verdict as to count two, we the jury find the defendant guilty of attempted second-degree murder, a lesser included offense. We find that the defendant discharged a firearm during the commission of the offense.
Verdicts as to count three, we the jury find the defendant guilty of attempted second-degree murder, a lesser included offense.
