Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Arizona Controversy; U.S. Sending Marines to Ukraine

Aired February 25, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BALDWIN: Here we go. Hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Have to begin in Arizona. Governor Jan Brewer is expected to veto the state's controversial religious freedom bill. And you will hear directly from the governor in just a moment.

But first, Brewer herself has been hearing from a growing number of businesses, vehemently opposed to Senate bill 1062. It's this proposal that was specifically written to protect them from lawsuits. Her office received this letter just today, signed by 80-plus Arizona companies. All of them want her to veto this bill; 1062 expands state definitions of religious freedoms, allowing not just people, but businesses and allowing associations to deny services if providing them goes against their religious beliefs.

Now, critics, and there are a lot of them, say 1062 is a way to legally discriminate against gay people. And when debating that point, one bill supporter would not or could not explain how SB-1062 prevents discrimination. You have to hear this.

This is state Senator Al Melvin. He's actually a candidate for governor, talking to Anderson Cooper. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Under your law, under this law, if I'm a Catholic loan officer, say, in a bank, and I don't like the idea of loaning money to a divorced woman because Jesus spoke against divorce very strongly, or I don't want to loan money to an unwed mother, even though she might be, you know, able to pay me back as a loan officer. I just don't -- it's against my religious belief and my religious belief is sincere.

Under your law, I could refuse to do business with an unwed mother or a divorced woman, correct?

AL MELVIN (R), ARIZONA STATE SENATOR: I don't know where you're getting your hypotheticals from, sir. Divorced women and what was the other one you cited?

COOPER: Unwed mother. I mean, Jesus spoke --

MELVIN: Who would be against an unwed mother? I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be against a divorced woman.

COOPER: But, sir, as you know --

MELVIN: And you don't --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Sir --

MELVIN: Discrimination to the nth degree.

COOPER: No, actually, sir, I'm just talking about what Jesus talked. Jesus spoke against divorce.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: By the way, if you want to watch the whole interview, CNN.com.

Here she is, Dana Bash. She's our chief CNN congressional correspondent.

And you talked to the woman, really, of the week here, Jan Brewer. Tell me, why is it expected that she will veto this bill by Saturday?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, the answer to that is, according to people who are familiar with her thinking, know her well in Arizona, the answer is what you talked about at the beginning of the segment, which is primarily the business side of this.

She considers herself a pro-business governor. She has spent years trying to build back up the economy of her state, and she understands very well the kind of backlash against businesses in Arizona that this could have.

Having said that, that is certainly what I'm told she is thinking behind the scenes, in private. When it comes to her public comments, she is still very cautious, and especially cautious because she's been here in Washington. She's on a plane right now, going back to her home state of Arizona.

So she was reluctant to say much specific about where she'd go, but I think some of what she maybe didn't say is telling. Listen to at least part of our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JAN BREWER (R), ARIZONA: And I don't rely a whole lot on my gut, because I have to look at what it says and what the law says and take that information and do the right thing. But I can assure you, as always, I will do the right thing for the state of Arizona.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: "I'm going to do the right thing for the state of Arizona."

Now, obviously, that can be read multiple ways, depending on where you sit. But from the perspective of the governor, and again, the perspective of somebody who considers herself very pro-business, every tea leaf that I am being told to read from people who are close to her is that that means she is not going to sign this, that she is going to veto it.

You might ask when. Well, she is going to go back today. The original plan was to at least give herself a full day to deliberate, to read the bill, to look at it, and then perhaps do it as early as Thursday. But, you know, you never know, because this has become sort of taken on a life of its own, that she might want to take the advice of that senior senator from Arizona, John McCain, and just veto it and move on.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I hear you loud on clear though on the issue with the corporations really piling on and signing this letter. But I'm also though curious of this other storyline, which is this little football game called the Super Bowl that is supposed to happen in Phoenix next year, and we know that the NFL, they have released a statement, they are watching, they are very closely, you know, what happens with this bill.

Do you think, Dana, I don't know if you got a chance to ask her, if the Super Bowl at all affected or will affect her decision?

BASH: It's funny. I asked her that specific question. I only got a couple questions in, and that was one of my big ones for her, because, obviously, the Super Bowl, in any state, brings in or should bring in so much revenue.

And, you know, little-known fact that I actually forgot about, but one of our colleagues brought up earlier this morning, was that the Super Bowl was supposed to be in Arizona years ago, and the NFL moved it because of the controversy over MLK Day.

So the people in Arizona know that they have it and they have a potential cash cow and they could lose it like this. So, there's no question. She didn't directly answer my question about the Super Bowl, but that was the point where she wanted to emphasize that she's very much for growing business in her state and doesn't want to do anything to jeopardize that. I think that was the answer.

BALDWIN: Glad you got a chance to ask her just those few questions. Dana Bash, we will be watching again the deadline for her to veto Saturday. Dana, thank you.

And just a heads-up for you. We are standing by. We're watching for the president, because any moment now he will be speaking at the White House in the East Room, announcing new plans to boost American manufacturing.

So we're watching for that and we will take some of that live for you. So, stand by.

But I can tell you that former Vice President Dick Cheney is now taking issue with the president, and yes, he has done this before. But this time, it's those planned defense cuts that we talked about yesterday. Cheney uses some pretty harsh language to argue that President Obama is making America less safe.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the whole thing is not driven by any change in world circumstances. It's driven by budget considerations. He would much rather spend the money on food stamps than he would on a strong military or support for our troops.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Tough talk from the former vice president.

Let's talk about this with Van Jones, co-host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE," and Buck Sexton, the national security editor TheBlaze.com and also let me add former CIA officer who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Gentleman, welcome to both of you.

And, Van Jones, you up first. Just your reaction to what Dick Cheney said.

VAN JONES, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, you know, it's ludicrous. I know that he's a big champion of welfare, corporate welfare for Halliburton. I'm sure he would love for us to get in some other big land war where Halliburton could make a lot of money.

But here's the reality. When you look at the numbers of what we're talking about, it's a very minor right-sizing. We're going from having about half a million soldiers, a little bit more than half a million soldiers, to a little bit fewer than half a million soldiers.

People can jump up and down and say that's ridiculous, but the reality is that we have got to right-size our military so we can fight the wars of the future, which will rely a lot much more on technology, being agile, and closing some of these bases are make us stronger, not weaker. He threw in that food stamp reference just for -- because that's what Dick Cheney does. But, obviously, that part of the budget has nothing to do with the defense budget.

BALDWIN: OK. I hear the word ludicrous from you, Van Jones.

But, Buck, here's why I really wanted to talk to you, too, because, as we mentioned, you served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And I want you to tell me why we shouldn't moving forward looking at the future of war have more drones and lasers and driver-less tanks.

BUCK SEXTON, NATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, THEBLAZE.COM: Well, we should, absolutely, have those things.

But you bring up, for example, two major land wars the U.S. has been involved in, in recent history and then the idea that the U.S. government can project accurately into the future what troop strength we would need in order to address those threats. Now, the Obama administration's essentially getting away with using budget policy in order to determine at some level what military strategy is going to be.

The reality here is they're saying, we don't want a force of this size, because we won't need to do these major land occupations in the future. But the truth is, the same soldiers that may be building houses or wells in Afghanistan, whether or not someone agrees with that as a use of U.S. military power, those troops would be necessary for a war that we can't see coming.

And it takes a lot longer to train a combat pilot or train a veteran soldier than it does to, say, build a tank. These are the issues that they have to be looking at going forward. A 20 percent cut in Army forces is not nibbling around the edges. That is a bite down the middle. That is a serious drawdown in our force strength.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Again, we are talking about the U.S. military. Don't you think if there is a call for boots on the ground, we will be ready with enough forces?

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: Let me just add one thing. I would love to hear Buck's response on this.

We're going from talking about having the biggest military in the history of the world, bigger than every other military by a couple of factors, to having the biggest military in the history of the world, bigger than every other military by a couple of factors.

In other words, it really does not make sense to me. We were planning on going, to having 490,000 soldiers. Now they're saying 450,000 soldiers. We're still bigger than everybody by far. Why is this some reason for us to jump up and down and act like we're going to be invaded by Canada tomorrow?

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Buck.

SEXTON: This is where the administration and I and many others have a separation of ideology. I actually think the projection of U.S. military power abroad is a good thing for the world.

I actually believe that the United States is a force for stabilization and for good, and while the administration may love the trillion- dollar welfare state that we have and the leaps and bounds we're taking towards socialized medicine, the truth is that unlike our friends in Europe, we don't have an American to count on to keep the sea lanes open. We don't have an America to count on to make sure that the dictators of the world at least can sit up and take notice, or they did until this president took office.

These are the issues that I think come to the fore when people are asking, why this drastic reduction, 20 percent of the Army, and also, by the way, balancing budgets on the backs of military families? Meanwhile, if you try to cut anything this administration believes is sacred, such as entitlements, if you try to look at the spending they're doing domestically, nothing can ever be cut. There's nothing that can ever be cut from that budget.

BALDWIN: Let me pivot. Van, speaking specifically of troops, we have just learned, we know that president of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, was on the phone with Obama this morning, and talking to our Pentagon folks, they tell us, this is according to a senior U.S. official, that for the first time, here we have the commander in chief telling us to begin planning for this complete withdrawal.

There will still be an option, of course, to stay. But it's reached a point where the Pentagon has to begin planning for zero troops. My question to you, is the president calling Karzai's bluff?

JONES: Well, he may well be calling Karzai's bluff, but he's also delivering on what the American people want. The American people, you know, after 12 years, want our troops home.

Nobody, now, can explain to anybody what we're doing over there, why we should be there, you know, if Karzai doesn't want us there, the population, apparently, is more mad us than glad that we're there, if you look at the polling data. It's not clear to me why we should be there.

I think people want our troops back home, and I think this is part of the process. Eventually, we're not going to have troops over there. We can't be an occupying force in other people's countries for decade after decade. We have been there for more than a decade. It's time to come home.

BALDWIN: Van Jones, we watch you every day, 6:30 p.m. Eastern on "CROSSFIRE," and Buck Sexton. Thank you both very much.

Now to this, an elite team of Marines is on its way to Ukraine to beef up the security of the embassy in Kiev, this after last week's deadly anti-government protest and what's now expected to be really a turbulent transition to replace the now-deposed President Viktor Yanukovych.

Keep in mind, this man is still on the run. He is wanted for mass murder, fleeing his opulent palace, which opened to the public just a day after he took off. Former President Bill Clinton using the unusual situation to get a few laughs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You follow what's going on in Ukraine? It's the darndest thing I ever saw.

The politicians didn't throw the president out. The people did. They say, this guy is not in it for us anymore. Then they went into his presidential residence, which they had privatized for himself. Can you imagine what somebody would do if the president or any president tried to say, I think I will privatize the White House and keep the paintings if it's all the same to you?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In the absence of Viktor Yanukovych, the seat for presidency in Ukraine is vacant, and former heavyweight boxing champ Vitali Klitschko just announced he's throwing his hat in the ring.

The violence may have calmed in Ukraine for now, but in Venezuela, anti-government protests are becoming deadlier by the day.

The death toll is now up to 13, and the U.S. is resorting to tit for tat, expelling three Venezuelan diplomats in response to the expulsion of three diplomats from Venezuela. As for the political chess game here happening, look at this, in the streets of Caracas, people filled the streets descend into chaos. Demonstrators are putting up barricades and starting trash fires. They want President Nicolas Maduro to step down, to leave. But he has strong support from the military and many of the nation's poor.

Coming up, Ted Nugent says his controversial comments are not racist and that he's given up on calling people names. But that didn't last very long. We will show you, and we will talk to Erin Burnett, who interviewed him last night.

Also next, a Twitter account claiming to be a fly on the wall at the elevator of Goldman Sachs making every obnoxious comment at the big bank public knowledge. It's a fake, folks. As for the guy behind it, doesn't even work on Wall Street. A lot ahead in the NEWSROOM. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: This just into us here at CNN. We're now learning that the Department of Transportation is going to fine Asiana Airlines. Remember, of course, that's the airline that crashed in San Francisco last year, so the DOT is fining them $500,000 for not adhering to the family assistance plan.

(FINANCIAL UPDATE)

BALDWIN: You have probably heard about this Twitter sensation, this presumed Wall Street insider. This guy got us checking his Twitter feed when 600,000 followers sharing salacious conversations and juicy gossip allegedly heard inside of a Goldman Sachs elevator.

Let me just show you one tweet just to set the tone here. "Suit number one says, was that an earthquake? Suit number two says, no, I just dropped my wallet."

Well, it turns out this Twitter handle, @gselevator, is a fake, and he has been unmasked. He is John -- let me get this right -- John Lefevre, and these gossipy tweets were not, in fact, coming from inside of a Goldman Sachs elevator. They were coming all the way from Texas.

Joining me now from New York is CNN Money's Emily Fox.

And, Emily Fox, I'm checking. And I see this guy hasn't tweeted since February 16. What about Goldman Sachs here? Can they take any action?

EMILY FOX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Goldman Sachs has been pretty lighthearted in their response to this.

They told "The New York Times" yesterday that the official ban on elevator chatter has the actually been lifted now that the identity has been out there and for everyone to hear.

BALDWIN: OK, who is this guy, this Lefevre? You have interviewed him. Isn't he writing a book?

FOX: He is.

When I interviewed him back in May, he seemed like he was pretty into all the fame he was amassing on Twitter. We talked all about the famous celebrities who is follow him from Yahoo!'s Marissa Mayer to swimsuit model Kate Upton. And when I most recently spoke to him a few weeks ago, he was really excited about all the publicity his new book deal was bringing him.

I haven't been able to reach him since the revelation came out last night, but I would imagine he's still basking in the glow of his Internet celebrity for as long as that will last him.

BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. Emily Fox, things not to do. Emily Fox, thank you very much.

FOX: Thank you.

BALDWIN: As we mentioned, we have been keeping a close eye on the White House, because the president now speaking. Let's take a listen.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... is responsible for trimming my trees and potholes in front of my house and shoveling snow. And I haven't been back for a while. I don't know how it's going, but I'm assuming he's handling his business.

The mayor of the great city of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, is here.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: We have got Phil LaJoy, who is the supervisor of Canton Township, Michigan, who is here. There he is. Good job, Phil.

(APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: And we have got some outstanding members of Congress who are he here, especially someone who just announced that this would be his last term in Congress, but is somebody who so many of us have learned from, have admired.

He is a man who has every single day of his life, in office, made sure that he was fighting on behalf of people who really needed help and he is going to be very missed. John, you are not just the longest-serving member of Congress in American history. You're also one of the very best. Michigan's own John Dingell is here.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: We are better off because of John's service, and we're going to miss him.

Now, today I am joined by researchers who invent some of the most advanced metals on the planet, designers who are modeling prototypes in the digital cloud, folks from the Pentagon who help to support their work.

Basically, I'm here to announce that we're building Iron Man.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: I'm going to blast off in a second. This has been a secret project we have been working on for a long time.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: Not really. Maybe.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: It's classified.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: But keeping America at the cutting edge of technology and innovation is what is going to ensure a steady stream of good jobs into the 21st century.

And that's why we're here today, to take new action to put America at the forefront of 21st century manufacturing. Now, this is a moment when our economy is growing, and it has been growing steadily for over four years now. Our businesses have created about 8.5 million new jobs over the past four years.

The unemployment rate is the lowest it's been in over five years. Our manufacturing sector is adding jobs for the first time since the 1990s. So, there's some good news to report, but the trends that have battered the middle class for decades have become, in some ways, even starker.

While those at the top are doing better than ever, average wages have barely budged. Too many Americans are working harder than ever just to keep up. And it's our job to reverse those trends. We have got to build an economy that works for everyone, not just a fortunate few.

We have got to restore opportunity for all people. That's the essence of America. No matter who you are, where you come from, what you look like, how you started out, if you are willing to work hard and take responsibility, you can get ahead in America. So I have been talking now for months about an opportunity agenda. And let me break it down into four parts. Number one, more good jobs that pay good wages, jobs in American manufacturing, rebuilding our infrastructure, innovation, energy.

Number two, training workers with the skills they need to fill those jobs. Number three, guaranteed access to a world-class education for every child in America. And, number four, making sure that hard work pays off, with wages you can live on and savings you can retire on and health insurance you can count on when you need it.

Now, I'm looking forward to working with Congress, wherever they're willing to do something on any of these priorities. And I have to say that the members of Congress who are here all care deeply about these issues.

BALDWIN: You can keep watching the president speaking there from the East Room, talking about this partnership he's announcing with the private sector to grow jobs, grow the middle class, specifically in the advanced manufacturing sector.

Keep watching CNN.com and also a quick little shout-out to John Dingell, who has announced he is leaving Congress after 59 years, longest serving member of Congress in the nation's history.

Coming up, we see the president here. President Obama, this morning, actually met with John Boehner, the speaker of the House, in this rare one-on-one meeting, but in his first public comments, the House speaker already went on the attack. We will play that for you coming up next.

Plus, former rocker, now political pontificator Ted Nugent telling CNN that his subhuman mongrel and chimpanzee comments about President Obama were not racist, also saying he was going to stop all the name- calling, but that lasted for a cool 20 seconds. Hear what he told Erin Burnett coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)