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Secretary Kerry in Paris; U.N. Envoy Threatened; Putin and International Law; Pentagon Suspends Military Exercises

Aired March 05, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Brianna Keilar, in for Brooke Baldwin.

A lot of developments today out of Ukraine. We have just learned that Secretary of State John Kerry will speak sometime this hour. This comes after his meeting with the Russian foreign minister. Now, when Kerry starts his news conference, we will bring you that live.

Also, United Nations Envoy Robert Serry has agreed to end his mission in Crimea and leave the region after being threatened by a group of armed men who wanted him to get into a car. This as the search for a solution to deescalate the growing tension in Ukraine may be happening right now in Paris, where Secretary of State John Kerry just met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

Back in Washington, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel says he's beefing up a joint military training mission in Poland, and adding planes to a Baltic air patrol mission.

In Moscow, lawmakers are going tit for tat, drawing up a measure that would essentially confiscate U.S. and European assets if the U.S. and Europe slap sanctions on Russia. The House Foreign Affairs Committee could vote as early as tomorrow on a non-binding sanction resolution. But for now, the west is more focused on economic aid to Ukraine.

The EU, today, promising $15 billion in, quote, "trade, economic and technical assistance" over the next two years. And diplomats from Ukraine, the U.S. and Britain have agreed, in principal at least, to deploy international observers to Ukraine. The idea here is to ease Russia's concerns after President Putin indicated he was worried about the safety of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. An excuse for an invasion very few in Washington are buying. That's what we're hearing here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We don't accept anything that President Putin said as fact about why they had to protect the so- called ethnic minority in Crimea, and the other reasons that the Russians have laid out as to why they took the action they did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now joining me now, Elise Labott, foreign affairs reporter, from Paris. She is traveling with Secretary Kerry. As well I'm joined by Jim Sciutto, our chief national security correspondent. He is standing by. Elise, to you first. We know that Kerry has spoken to Russia's foreign minister. Do we have any details about that meeting today? What has come out of it?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, Brianna, he met with the Russian foreign minister three times, first with a group of other foreign ministers from France, Britain, Germany, then later he huddled with the foreign minister of Russia again. Then they just wrapped up about a one-hour meeting, all in an effort to get some diplomatic track going. And the single sales objective is to get the Russian minister to sit down with the Ukrainian foreign minister, with these other ministers that are in town from Britain, France and Germany, and try and get some diplomatic process going, get those international monitors on the ground.

We're told that Secretary Kerry is in the French foreign ministry right now meeting with other ministers. Minister Lavrov, the Ukrainian foreign minister in the building while these ministers try to get something going. Nothing yet, but it could be a long night.

KEILAR: And, Elise, talk to us about sort of these two men, Lavrov and Kerry, when they get together, when they talk about things, is it normally pretty productive?

LABOTT: Well, in some ways it is and in some ways it isn't. Obviously they have a very good relationship and they're able to sit down and talk. And a lot of times Kerry is very good at engaging the foreign minister and getting diplomatic action going. You saw what happened with that agreement with chemical weapons. Russia was really on board after Secretary Kerry made some comments about Syria getting rid of its chemical weapons.

But at the same time, a lot of people think that Minister Lavrov plays Secretary Kerry in a way, gets some diplomatic process going but then Russia isn't very productive. So the concern here is, how does Secretary Kerry make sure that the Russian foreign minister sits down with the Ukrainian foreign minister, but also to be productive, not just have talks for the sake of talk, but really see if they can deescalate the situation so that Russia can pull its troops back from the Crimea, but, at the same time, that the international community and the Ukrainians can address those Russian concerns particularly on the Crimean peninsula.

KEILAR: And, Jim, what's going on right now behind closed doors? So much of this, obviously, happens outside of the spotlight. What's happening?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, you have the application of both hard power and soft power at this point, right? You have the diplomatic effort going on in Paris. A real effort to get certainly the Ukrainian foreign minister to sit down with the Russian foreign minister. But, still, the first face-to-face contact already between the U.S. and Russia, Lavrov and Kerry, that's important. You need the dialog open, find this off-ramp, find a way out of the crisis for both sides. Meanwhile, applying pressure. Economic and military pressure. You have Secretary Hagel announcing, as you noted, the deployment of more aircraft to the Baltic states, just north of Russia, NATO allies, extending the stay of some aircraft, an aircraft wing in Poland, just to the west of the Ukraine, another NATO ally. And we have this scheduled visit by a U.S. destroyer to the Black Sea coming up in a few days, as well as this economic pressure. You know, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is going to vote on a resolution, a nonbinding resolution, tomorrow, but a fairly comprehensive one that would impose sanctions on Russian individuals, Russian banks, Russian companies. That's where you really hit the soft spot in Russia, because that's where they really begin to lose a lot of money when you raise the cost.

The other thing I would note is, you have the EU offering this $15 billion package of aid. That number is interesting because you may remember that early on in the crisis, Russia offered the Ukraine $15 billion in aid. So I was kind of surprised it wasn't $15.5 billion or $16 billion, you know, just to try to, you know, one-up them a little bit. But, you know, that's an intentional figure and it's intended to be another economic offer of support.

KEILAR: And so much of this, Jim, we're sort of living by the next thing that President Obama or Secretary Kerry says. Do we have any idea what Secretary Kerry may say?

SCIUTTO: We don't. I mean it really depends on what comes out of that meeting with Lavrov. I wouldn't give the highest expectations for it yet. I don't imagine that Kerry and Lavrov, in these meetings today, are going to come to the conclusion on what this off-ramp will be. They might have discussed it. Kerry gave his proposals. You get a Russian reaction. But it doesn't look like they're at the stage, unless we're surprised, that they're going to resolve this today. But we want to listen to those comments for a sign that there's at least life in a diplomatic solution to this and soon.

Because the other point I would make it this. While they're talking in Paris, there are a lot of angry people, a lot of armed men on the ground in Ukraine. You saw that, you know, flair up today with the U.N. envoy getting forced out of the Ukraine at gunpoint. Yesterday we saw Ukrainian and Russian troops face off, warning shots fired in the air. It's a volatile mix of forces on the ground there. And if the diplomats can't solve the problem soon, you know, someone's going to get hurt. And then that leads to further escalation.

KEILAR: Sure. Room for error and then it can escalate. Jim Sciutto here in Washington, thank you. And thanks, as well, to Elise Labott, traveling with Secretary Kerry in Paris.

And again, Secretary Kerry is scheduled to speak soon. We will be bringing you his remarks live once he begins.

We're also waiting for President Obama. He's set to speak in Connecticut in about 20 minutes. He will be rallying support for raising the minimum wage, but he could also make some remarks on the situation in Ukraine. We are watching his event there in New Britain, Connecticut. He has not yet been introduced, but we will be following his remarks and we will certainly bring them to you as he starts to address the crowd there on the minimum wage. But, you know, he frequently will talk about the news of the day at the top of an event like this that's normally unrelated.

Well, you heard Jim talking about that U.N. envoy sent to Crimea. That envoy was threatened, not kidnapped, but he is now safe and preparing to leave Ukraine. The U.N. says several armed men threatened special envoy Robert Serry and for a while actually blocked him inside of a local coffee shop. CNN's Richard Roth is live at the U.N.

Richard, break this down for us. What happened, what kind of threat was this and how did he escape the coffee shop?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just heard that -- Jim Sciutto saying someone's going to get hurt. And this U.N. envoy, Robert Serry, has his diplomatic mission abruptly cut short in Crimea.

He had pretty much just arrived. He visited a naval base in Semtherpol (ph) and was leaving when armed men, 10 to 15 in number, not everyone with weapons, some described as light weapons, surrounded him, demanded that he leave Crimea immediately and go to the airport. He got into the car that he came with but refused to get out and the men blocked the car. They then were threatening him. He was described as shaken but not physically hurt. He walked and sought refuge, in effect, in this coffee shop.

Now the late news is that the United Nations is saying he's taking a late flight out of Semtherpol and will return shortly to Kiev to continue his mission cut short by today's incident, the words of the United Nation spokesman office here in New York. U.N. Deputy Secretary General Jan Eliasson had described to the U.N. press corps here what was happening with Serry. He did not have any U.N. security with him. And the U.N. says they were relying on Ukrainians for security. He's not sure if anybody was with him. He was accompanied to Crimea with a European security official, but he went alone, it appears, to that naval base. So the U.N. -- this incident does not bode well for any U.N. observers or international monitors to be on the ground unless every side has signed off on any potential deal to the future.

Brianna.

KEILAR: So who were the armed men? Do we know?

ROTH: The U.N. was asked that. Serry seems to have been asked that by his bosses. No languages could be discerned. No markings. There were some men in military fatigues. It's not clear. A rag-tag bunch. Thugs assigned by higher ups to intimidate the United Nations. We've seen U.N. monitors on the ground in other crisis, when they go in early, such as Syria, who are shot at, threatened. Serry, right now, going to the relative calm of Kiev.

Back to you.

KEILAR: All right, thank you so much, Richard. Really appreciate your report.

New threats from Russia focus on hitting the U.S. in the pocketbook. Russian state media reports lawmakers there are threatening to seize U.S. and European assets if economic sanctions are slapped on Moscow. Russian lawmakers are reportedly drafting a law that would allow Russia to confiscate assets held by U.S. and European companies in Russia. The U.S. and the European Union are considering sanctions against Russia if President Putin does not back off and quickly withdraw Russian forces from the Crimea region of Ukraine.

President Obama has accused President Putin of violating international law by sending troops to Crimea. And our next guest says Putin could care less about violating international law. So I want to bring in Karen Alter, professor of political science and law at Northwestern University.

Karen, thanks so much for being with us. We wanted to talk to you about this opinion piece that you have on cnn.com right now. It says, "international law may not really help people in Ukraine much right now." Why is that?

KAREN ALTER, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY: Well, let me qualify. I think it's helping by maybe keeping the situation from escalating any further. There are no tools that people in the Ukraine can right now can upon. They could call upon the U.N. Security Council, but that's not going to be very effective given that Russia has veto power in the Security Council. So right now what they can do is invoke European -- international law and use it to deter any more overt threats of force, to try to deter more overt threats of force from Putin.

KEILAR: And, Karen, so you actually compare the stand your ground law in some U.S. states, which has come to sort of in a way almost be infamous, brought out by the Trayvon Martin murder and the George Zimmerman trial. You've compared that to Russia's claim of, quote, "responsibility to protect against ethnic violence." Explain that comparison. Break that down for us.

ALTER: Well, it's more the invocation of self-defense. I mean everybody says that they are acting on self-defense. So Russia has been suggesting that maybe it is in the Crimean order to protect ethnic Russians in the region. And of course people on the ground are saying, there is no threat. You don't have to protect us from anything. So it's all, do you perceive a threat. Is there an actual threat.

But I should stress that even if there was a threat to Russians in the Crimea, that is not a basis under which Putin can move into the region. So it's more the invocation in try - in attempt to use this, which, if you bring the case to a court of law, will, of course, fail. But right now it's not in a court of law, it's in the court of public opinion.

KEILAR: Yes. And you see U.S. officials trying to address that saying, hey, we and our allies will try to address your concerns. It seems essentially trying to kind of call Putin's bluff on his decisions of how he is concerned for some Russians in Crimea. When you're talking about him inventing a legal premises as you see it to justify these actions, have we seen this other places? Are there some other examples of this?

ALTER: We have seen it in many other places. But what I think is interesting is how his tune has changed over the course of this incident. I mean when he first went in, he didn't bother to say that international law was on his side. And then when Obama started to raise the specter of violating international law, that's when he started to invent the idea that he was asked to go in by the legitimate government of Ukraine, so he brought out the deposed president and had him make a speech where he was formally asked to go in.

This has been done in the past. During the Cold War, actually, our own administration did it with respect to Nicaragua. We said that El Salvador asked us to go in. Of course, at the time, they had not asked us to go in, so it didn't look very credible. And so it was used in the past. I think it's harder to harder to use these kind of tactics and get away with them. I think the expectations for international law have changed.

KEILAR: You think that they've sort of increased expectations?

ALTER: I think we expect legitimate governments to follow the rule of law. So in the past you might have seen law as binding contracts between states. And so if one state broke the law, then another state might have the right to also break the law. I don't think that's the expectation now. The expectation is that legitimate governments follow the rule of law. They keep their covenant and they adhere to international law. And we've seen actually Putin start to back pedal by trying to invent reasons why his intervention is legal. So you've seen him change his tune. And what I was trying to do in the commentary is to help us understand why is he all of a sudden saying that the Ukrainian deposed government is the legitimate government? Why is he saying that these are not Russian forces, that they are - that they are self-defense forces?

KEILAR: Yes.

ALTER: He's not claiming - naming Russia's involvement and that's because to do so would make it clearly illegal. So we see him backpedalling and trying to dress this up as a more legal intervention. He's far from unique in doing this. And it's not working.

KEILAR: It's a fascinating and important conversation to have. Karen Alter, thanks so much.

ALTER: Thank you, Brianna.

KEILAR: Now, Congress wants to know what options the U.S. military has in response to Russia. Today, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel talked about possible U.S. moves. But what is really on the table here? We will get some answers there. And the political fight over claims that the IRS targeted political groups turned into a shouting match on Capitol Hill. We'll show you what happened.

And Hilary Clinton invoking the Nazis in criticizing Vladimir Putin. Did she go too far?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Secretary of State John Kerry, as well as President Obama, scheduled to speak this hour. Kerry after his meeting with the Russian foreign minister. Obama is at an event in Connecticut, where he could make remarks on the Ukraine. We will be watching. We'll bring you both of those events live when they begin.

Meantime, U.S. officials like to say that all options are on the table when it comes to the crisis in Ukraine and how they're going to deal with Russia. But what does that mean exactly? Sanctions, yes, but what about the military? Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee today. He was peppered with questions about the Pentagon's response to the crisis in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think everyone on this committee knows, and in particular I know Senator McCain was in Ukraine a few weeks ago, that this is a time for wise and steady and firm leadership. And it's a time for all of us to stand with the Ukrainian people in support of their territorial integrity and their sovereignty. And we are doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Secretary Hagel also listed some specific steps that the Pentagon is taking, like suspending military exercises with Russia and stepping up joint training in Poland. Also adding patrol aircraft to the Baltic Air Police Mission. The question, though, is this really enough for Russia to take the U.S. seriously. And for more on that, we are joined now from Columbus, Ohio, by retired Colonel Peter Mansoor, a former aide to NATO's supreme commander, General David Petraeus.

Colonel, thanks so much for being here with us. Appreciate it.

COL. PETER MANSOOR, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you for having me on.

KEILAR: Can you put these steps, these options that we saw Secretary Hagel lay out, in perspective? Is this something that would really put the squeeze on Moscow or not?

MANSOOR: Well, not really. We're taking those actions because those are the only places we have troops available in eastern Europe. If we really want to put the squeeze on Moscow, we would go to NATO and discuss putting the Ukraine on an accelerated timeline for entry into the treaty organization, which would - now that would really put the squeeze on Moscow. Same as we could do with Georgia in the Caucasus. We could say, well, if Russia invaded Ukraine, they've already invaded Georgia, we'll put Georgia on a timeline to NATO membership. And this would be the sort of action that would really get Moscow's attention.

KEILAR: And how likely do you think that is? I mean, first off, sort of explain this to our viewers, would you have seen this Russian incursion into Crimea if Ukraine was in NATO and do you expect, in the wake of what's happened here, that there could be many more nations joining?

MANSOOR: Well, no, because if Ukraine were a member of NATO, they could invoke article five, an attack on one is an attack by all, and then it would have trigger NATO involvement in the crisis. This would be a political decision and a very momentous one to bring NATO all the way up to the borders of Russia. But it would certainly get Vladimir Putin's attention, since nothing else has.

KEILAR: And let me ask you this. Russian troops, we understand, who took part in recent war games, they're still in the field. They haven't returned. They haven't returned to their barracks. Should that worry the U.S.? Do you think that those exercises could be a smoke screen hiding a bigger offensive, or is this something that really the U.S. shouldn't read too much into?

MANSOOR: No, I think we should be very worried. The -- Crimea is the first step and there are plenty of Russian speaking populations in the eastern parts of the Ukraine where Russia could deploy troops and invade and try to slice off parts of the Ukraine, as it did slice off south Asisia (ph) and parts of Georgia in the 2008 war with that country.

So this is very serious and we shouldn't expect Crimea to be the last - the last place that there's going to be a crisis. This is not unlike Nazi Germany demanding of Czechoslovakia the cessation of the Sedatin (ph) land ethnic speaking Germans, an area that had only be given to the Czechoslovakia by the Versi (ph) treaty of 1919, 20 years before. But this is sort of the same - in the same playbook.

KEILAR: And let me ask you one more thing, colonel, about what Secretary Hagel talked about. He said perhaps provide weapons to Ukraine. Does that make sense to you?

MANSOOR: Well, we already have a military relationship with the Ukraine. The California National Guard has a very close relationship and it has done joint training missions to Ukrainian troops. So we already have that military relationship established. If we want to get Russia's attention, we should expand on it, selling the Ukraine weapons would be one step with joint military training and, again, considering some sort of timeline for the -- putting the Ukraine into NATO. Again, a political decision, but one that would certainly get Vladimir Putin's attention.

KEILAR: Retired Colonel Peter Mansoor, thanks so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it.

And I'm going to scoot you right to Connecticut, where President Obama is addressing a crowd.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are some trends out there that have been battering the middle class for a long, long time. Well before this great recession hit. And in some ways some of those trends have gotten worse, not better. You know, the nature of today's economy with technology and globalization means that there are folks at the top who are doing better than ever but average wages have barely budged. Average incomes have not gone up. Too many Americans are working harder than ever just to keep up. So as I said at my State of the Union Address, we've got to reverse those trends. It is a central task for all of us to build an economy that works for everybody, not just for some.

That's what every one of the governors and Tom Perez believes in. That's what we got into public service for. I hope Dan and Peter don't mind me sharing this. While we are driving over here, they were talking about the fact that when they were growing up, both of them had dyslexia. And because of the incredible fierce love of their parents, but also because there were some folks there to help them, they achieved -- made these extraordinary achievements.

Now, I wasn't in the car with Deval (ph), but Deval's a close friend of mine. He's got a similar story. Grew up on the south side of Chicago and - south side! You know, and came from a very modest background. But somebody gave him a chance.

You know, me, Tom Perez, so many of us understand that at the heart of America, the central premises of this country is the chance to achieve your dreams if you work hard, if you take responsibility. That it doesn't matter where you start, it's where you finish. And in America, we believe in opportunity for all. We believe that our success shouldn't be determined by the circumstances of our birth. It's determined by each of us, but also by a society that's committed to everybody succeeding. So that it doesn't matter what you look like, where you come from, what your last name is, who you love. What matters is, the strength of your work ethic and the power of your dreams and your willingness to take responsibility for yourself, but also for the larger society. That's what makes America the place that it is and why it continues to be a beacon attracting people from all- around the world. The idea that you can make it here if you try.

And there's been a lot of news about foreign affairs around the world over the last several days, but also for the last couple years. And one of the things that you see, a trend you see, it doesn't matter whether it's in central Europe or in the Mideast or Africa, individuals want a chance to make it if they try. And what makes us special is, we already do that when we're at our best. But we've got some work to do to matchup our ideals with the reality that's happening on the ground right now. And the opportunity agenda that I've laid out is designed to help us restore that idea of opportunity for everybody for this generation. The generation of young people who are studying here and about to enter the workforce. And it's got four parts.

Part one is something that I know the seniors here are very interested in, which is more good jobs that pay good wages.