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U.S. Slaps Russia with First Sanctions; Interview with Senator Dan Coats; Crimeans to Vote on Joining Russia or Not; U.S. Slaps Russia With Sanctions Over Ukraine; Russia Accused of Trapping Ukrainian Ships

Aired March 06, 2014 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: We begin this morning with breaking news out of Washington, D.C.

President Obama and the State Department slapped the first sanctions against those they decide are to blame for the crisis in Ukraine.

Michelle Kosinski has details now from the White House -- Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake. Yes, this is a huge day for planning and diplomacy. I mean, we have the U.N. Security Council meeting. All 28 European heads of state in an emergency meeting to discuss possible sanctions against Russia. We know the U.S. has taken the lead in much of that diplomacy. Well, this morning, took that a step further to action.

The president just signed this executive order declaring a national emergency to deal with the threat in Ukraine and imposing sanctions. First of all, freezing the assets of people deemed by the U.S. government to be responsible for -- I'm just going to read these bullet points -- actions or policies that undermine democratic processes in Ukraine, that threaten the peace, security, stability, sovereignty or territorial integrity of Ukraine, or the misappropriation of state assets there.

It also denies entry to the United States of people deemed to fall under those categories as well as banning any donation or funding of those people.

Now in this order, and its accompanying message to Congress explaining it, the president does not make a blanket sanction against Russia. This is against individuals, although at this point the administration is not naming names. And soon we'll have more information from senior administration officials. And we'll get that information to you -- Jake.

TAPPER: Michelle, any idea yet, and I know this is -- this is -- in any case, we'll move on as the world's diplomats debate, more lawmakers in Washington are demanding action. They want to punish and isolate Russia for its military invasion of a neighbor.

Here's one Senate resolution. It calls for kicking Russia out of the G-8, suspending the Russia/NATO Council, reducing the U.S. diplomatic posts in Russia and even asking World Cup officials to reconsider soccer matches there in 2018.

Our next guest introduced that resolution. Senator Dan Coats is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and former U.S. ambassador to Germany. He's a Republican from Indiana.

Senator Coats, thanks for joining us. First, Senator, I want to get your reaction to this announcement by the White House this morning announcing the targeting of certain individuals for sanctions. Does this go far enough for you?

SEN. DAN COATS (R), INDIANA: Well, it's a baby step in the right direction but given the fact that the United States is viewed as a retreating, declining president who's viewed as weak on foreign policy, very indecisive, we need to do a lot more than this, I think, to get this bully that is in the playground stood up to by the United States and provide the leadership with Europe and our allies to show that we really mean business here.

You can't just trample on your neighbor just because you think we can't do anything about it. Economic sanctions need to be strong. They need to be wide. I mean, just naming a few individuals is a small start.

I've listed a number of options for the president and I think frankly we should work together with the president as the united body so that we have a unified message to tell the Russians we're not going to tolerate this.

TAPPER: Senator, as you know, the U.S. has about $40 billion a year in trade with Russia. It's much bigger, about 10 times bigger in Europe. In order for these sanctions to really hurt, we really need -- the U.S. really needs the Europeans to be involved. But there seems to be great reluctance especially on the part of our allies, U.S. allies in the UK, in Germany.

What do you think the Obama administration or you in Congress can do to get Germans and the Brits and others in the EU more involved and more willing to impose sanctions?

COATS: Well, I think remind Europe that small things that have happened in the past have led to tragic consequences in Europe. And it's important to have stability there and important to have confidence and strength to stand up to these bully tactics of Russia. And secondly, I think we need to do some things to reassure Europe that given the surplus of energy supplies now around the world, whether it's from Norway, whether it's from the United States and other places.

Europe does not have to be so dependent on Russian energy. And, therefore, ought to have a little more freedom to stand up and tell Putin that this is not something that's acceptable and they're not simply going to kowtow because it affects their economy.

We want to avoid anything translating into something much larger which we've seen historically happen in Europe. Protect both the United States and the world from that kind of occurrence. TAPPER: Senator Coats, what kind of support are you getting for your resolution and do you think it has any chance of passing anytime soon?

COATS: Well, some resolution needs to pass. I have introduced one, I have strong support for it. There are others coming forward also from other members. I think Senator Durbin introduced something yesterday.

We all need to get on board on this. I mean, this is something that affects the United States. We shouldn't play politics but we do need leadership from our president which has been, as I said, weak and indecisive in the past. This is his opportunity to step up, I think, and reassert that leadership as the world so desperately needs. It won't happen without the U.S. leading.

TAPPER: The World Cup soccer matches in Russia that you propose be moved. Those are four years from now. Doesn't that seem perhaps, to play devil's advocate here, a little far away to be moving them?

COATS: Well, obviously, most of what I propose is much tougher than that. But you know, this is symbolic from the standpoint that these are going to be in Sochi. Vladimir Putin goes down to Sochi and says, you know, hey, this is the new Russia, as he showed in the Olympics. Whether it's the G-8 meeting or whether it's the FIFA World Cup four years from now we need to destroy this narrative that Russia is a nice guy, playing with the world, cooperating with everyone and just come to Sochi and you'll see how different things are.

Well, that has all been trumped by this invasion of their neighbor and the lies that have come forward in terms of why they did it and so forth so it's symbolic. So that's one of many measures which I've offered but it's the economic sanctions that will really hit home with the Russians.

TAPPER: You said that Putin has imperial ambitions and you said that could come to threaten us all. What do you mean exactly by that, threatening us all? How is Putin a direct threat to the United States?

COATS: Well, it's -- I would say it's an indirect threat at this particular point, although this first step is something that we ought to put in the context of history when the Soviet Union came unglued, it was thought that, you know, they are not going to be a major world player. Putin has put himself in the place of saying, no, I want to restore Russia to its former position.

And by doing these steps here in terms of enlarging Russia and saying, well, anybody who was part of our Soviet Union before that thinks they want to be with Russia, does this not remind us of what happened with Hitler in the early '20s and '30s where they -- taking the Sudetenland? I mean, these are Germans. So we're going to incorporate them regardless of what international law says.

And this is the first step for Putin. I don't know if he has designs on moving forward but I can tell you this. The Baltics are nervous. Poland is nervous. Romania and other nations that have been on the fringe of the Soviet Union found their democracy, found their liberty, are now nervous. And so I think we need to step up now and stop this before it might lead to something down the future that we would regret not having stood up when it happened the first time.

TAPPER: Senator, before you go, with the benefit of hindsight, is it problematic? Do you wish that George W. Bush had done more to retaliate against Russia when they invaded Georgia in 2008 in retrospect? Should the U.S. have made a bigger deal out of that.

COATS: I think of taking a strong stand in terms of international law being violated and someone violating another nation's sovereignty, whether it's Republican, whether it's a Democrat, doesn't matter. The United States needs to stand strong. It needs to lead. It needs to lead its European allies and friends around the world in condemnation of this and taking whatever steps are nose necessary to say don't go there and we won't let you go there.

TAPPER: Senator Dan Coats, Republican of Indiana, thank you so much for your time, sir.

COATS: Thank you. Good talking to you.

TAPPER: Nice talking to you, sir.

Secretary of State John Kerry is holding talks with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in Rome right now. Lavrov is saying there is still Ukraine.

CNN's Elise Labott is traveling with Secretary Kerry, she joins us on the phone.

Elise, what is the latest in terms of getting Lavrov to sit down with his Ukrainian counterpart. Any movement there?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, there's no movement right now, Jake. Secretary Kerry and foreign minister Lavrov have been meeting for just about an hour. This follows yesterday's three meetings that they had in various groupings. A couple of meetings alone. One meeting with British, French and German foreign ministers. And not only did they want to get him to sit down with his Ukrainian counterpart but want to get agreement on some kind of diplomatic process going on.

They're trying to put together some kind of contact group or coordination groups where you can get the Ukrainians and the Russians in the same room with other countries trying to get international monitors on the ground. This is really still the proposal that's on the table. The German Chancellor Angela Merkel spoke to President Putin about this yesterday. And now this is where the state of play is.

We don't really think there's going to be a meeting today or tomorrow between the Ukrainian and the Russians. Foreign minister Lavrov looks like he's going to have to go back to Moscow, huddle with President Putin and get some instructions and Secretary Kerry is saying that this will take a while but he's hoping that moving forward they could get something going. TAPPER: Elise, do you think ultimately the U.S. government will accept Russia basically annexing Crimea and then just leaving it at that? In other words, As long as Russia does not go into eastern Ukraine and only just annexes, essentially, Crimea and Southern Ukraine, will the U.S. take that as a victory and go home?

LABOTT: I don't think you're ever going to hear any U.S. official kind of say it like that because then they would be capitulating to the position they've been thinking over the last week or so. But when you speak to officials privately, you do get the sense they are emphasizing more that Russian special relationship with Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula la and the fact that, you know, all Russian -- all Ukrainian citizens have to be taken into account here, including those Russian speaking citizens.

And fact that at one point Crimea did belong to the Russians and the Russians still feel as if it's their territory. So I don't think you're ever going to hear the U.S. say to Russia, OK, it's yours. But I think what you are going to have is a return to the status quo perhaps where Russian troops return back to their barracks but there's a tacit recognition that this is a Russian territory and I think that that in effect will calm the situation down.

Ukrainians will have an election. They'll put together a unity government and then have an election and Russia will have a hand in that because there are so many Ukrainians in the country that bend towards Russia. So I think over the coming days and weeks, that's going to be how it shakes out -- Jake.

TAPPER: And we've seen just in the last 24 hours announcements and suggestions from Crimean officials that Ukrainian troops in Crimea will be considered occupying troops as opposed to Russian troops which will be considered part -- having been invited. There's discussions now of Crimea going to the Russian ruble. Obviously, there's going to be some sort of referendum on Crimeans being able to vote. Whether or not they want to be part of the Russian federation.

How much do U.S. officials think that these are organic maneuvers by Crimean officials versus Russia pulling the strings?

LABOTT: Well, I think it's a little bit of both because you have these Ukrainian officials in the Crimea that speak Russian that are bending towards Russia. Clearly, Russian moves are putting some kind of pressure on this. But I think this is all -- while this might take place, I think a lot of it is trying to raise the stakes here and trying to claim their territory to say, you know, it's been a come to us, whether you like it or not. And so we can take moves to do it officially. We're going to take moves to, you know, officially annex it. But we really don't have to do that.

Because, Jake, no matter -- any way you slice it, no matter where this ends up, it does look like Crimea is going to end up in the hands of the Russians in some way. So they might be taking moves to formalize it. But I think you're going to see in the coming days a diplomatic process that doesn't necessarily officially hand the Crimeans to the Russians but makes pretty clear that this is, was and always will be a Russian territory.

TAPPER: Elise Labott traveling with Secretary of State John Kerry, thank you so much.

Ukraine's interim prime minister is speaking out against Crimea's plan to let its residents vote on joining the Russian federation. Calling the referendum illegal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OLEKSANDR TURCHYNOV, UKRAINE'S INTERIM PRESIDENT: This is illegitimate decision. And this so-called referendum has no legal grounds at all. That's the reason why we urge Russian government not to support those who claim separatism in Ukraine. Crimea was, is and will be an integral part of Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Joining me to discuss, Phil Black in Moscow.

Phil, what can you tell us about this intended vote?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, if you remember after the revolution in Kiev, pro-Russian government stormed the local Crimean parliament, took control, only letting pro-Russian members of that parliament fired the local government set up a new government, declared their intention to hold a referendum in late may on the question of independence.

Today they've locked in a date. It is now just over a week away on March 16th. And independence doesn't even get a mention. There are two questions that will be asked. Are you in favor of Crimea becoming a subject of the Russian Federation or would you prefer Crimea to remain part of Ukraine?

That's two options -- become part or remain part of Ukraine or essentially volunteer to be annexed by the Russian federation -- Jake.

TAPPER: Phil, do we have any indication which way this vote may go either in favor of joining Russia or staying status quo?

BLACK: We know there is an ethnic Russian majority. Around 60 percent of the population. Today, local authorities are thinking they can get about 70 percent of the vote in favor of joining the Russian federation.

There's some polling out of Kiev that suggests only 40 percent of locals would like to join Russia.

There's a key question here on the fairness of such a vote, particularly if there are Russian soldiers occupying the territory at the time. And I think that points to one of the key issues we've been talking about for a couple of days now. Why is Russia so reluctant to acknowledge there are Russian soldiers on the ground there intervening in events directly? Well, the Russian narrative has been this is homegrown, grassroots organic process, the locals rejecting the resolution of the new government.

And this referendum is very much a part of that narrative. If Russia acknowledges there are Russian soldiers occupying, then that argument loses considerable credibility, Jake.

TAPPER: It's Orwellian. Phil Black in Moscow, thank you so much.

Michelle Kosinski is at the White House with the first sanctions imposed by the Obama administration.

Michelle, what can you tell us?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just had a briefing with senior administration officials who called this imposing of sanctions a powerful flexible tool to target individuals. Although they did say that in terms of the asset freezing, nobody has been identified or designated yet, that that's something that could happen in the future. It's there for them to use as they see fit. Although it did sound like officials were saying that where it regards visa bans or revoking people's visas that that was the case. That there are already people identified that may even be in the process, although we're looking for more clarification on that.

These officials said they have grave concerns that the situation in Ukraine will escalate further. And they added that if that does happen, that they could impose more sanctions or take further steps. The question was asked, why now? Did something today make you want to impose, sign the executive order, impose these sanctions right now, pointing basically to that move taken by the Crimean parliament, instead of referendum.

Take initial steps to separate from Ukraine. But these officials said no. It had nothing to do with that referendum. Basically they felt like they needed to act quickly and that there need to be costs and consequences identified as they've been talking about and planning for over the last couple of days.

They also said that even though discussions are ongoing on some level -- I mean, two days in a row now Secretary of State Kerry is meeting with his Russian counterpart. That that didn't want to hold the administration back. That they didn't want to be held by anything ongoing from imposing this and having this in place based on what's going on on the ground and as those developments continue -- Jake.

TAPPER: Michelle, any word from the White House on their struggles to get their European counterparts to impose similar sanctions. We know that the Brits and the Germans have been reluctant to join the U.S. in a sanction regime. Did they comment on that at all?

KOSINSKI: Well, you know, as regards Europe, each of those countries, I mean, especially France and the U.K., while we know that there's hesitation there, some of which has been expressed, they've also expressed it the other way.

Cameron, Prime Minister David Cameron from the U.K. the other day said, well, nothing should be off the table. France specifically mentioned the possibility of sanctions. But today, administration officials said that they've been working closely with those allies, that there may be steps taken today that the E.U. could impose sanctions as well. And the administration said that those allies knew that these sanctions by the U.S. today were coming.

TAPPER: Michelle Kosinski at the White House, thank you so much.

We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: This morning, Ukrainian officials are accusing the Russian government of purposely sinking an old warship at the entrance to a harbor and trapping seven Ukrainian ships.

Take a look at this map. You can see the harbor and we've circled the only entrance so you can see how easy it may be for a warship to block that small entry.

Let's bring in retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt to help us understand the Russian strategy here. He's an expert in military policy and formerly worked for the United States State Department. He's also a contributor for al Jazeera English.

General, Russia has denied the troops in Crimea are Russian troops. But who else would sink a warship to trap Ukraine's vessels?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY (RET): Well, I think Chairman Dempsey yesterday was pretty clear that the information he had indicated that these were, while they may not have been wearing Russian uniforms were Russian soldiers operating under the command of the Russian higher command. So, let's just take that as a given.

TAPPER: Ukraine's prime minister is warning to stop stoking tensions. Do you think Moscow is trying to provoke the Ukrainian military?

KIMMITT: I don't think so. Russia's strategic objective has been to ensure that the stability inside of Ukraine -- the instability inside Ukraine does not lead to them losing their strategic port in Sevastopol. I would think at this point that the Russians are continuing to play their game of chess, have taken that piece and simply want to pocket it and move on.

TAPPER: General, the Russian foreign minister slammed NATO and the OSCE, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which sent three dozen international observers to Ukraine. He said it's, quote, "not helping".

Is he right, do you think? Are international actions exacerbating this crisis?

KIMMITT: Well, the Russians for years and years have had a paranoia any time countries on their borders have gone through periods of instability. What we're trying to do is ensure that if there is a referendum inside the Crimea, that that referendum is free and fair. If the people decide to move towards the Russian federation, back to where they were pre-1954, that should be done on legitimate basis.

So the Russians, rather than suggesting that it's provoking, should be welcoming the international observers so that referendum can be considered by the world community free and fair.

TAPPER: So, Crimea's parliament, we know, is set to vote in 10 days on whether to join the Russian federation or stay with Ukraine. How does that change the situation, do you think?

KIMMITT: Well, that's going to be up to Vladimir Putin. If, in fact, the referendum indicates that the people want to turn west rather than remain with Russian federation or lean towards Russian federation, it's really in his court as to the next steps. Will he in fact, put more troops in there to defend his base in Sevastopol, fearing that the Ukrainians may take it away from him, or does he just simply say I'm going to stay here and never leave? That port is critical to the Russian military. It's the only warm water port they have in their inventory. And my suspicion is that Putin is going to do whatever he can to hang on to that port.

TAPPER: A remarkable turn of events. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, thank you so much for your insight.

Still to come, a fiery showdown during a Capitol Hill hearing even though the star witness was refusing to talk. We'll go inside the clash between Republican Darrell Issa and his Democratic colleague Elijah Cummings.

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