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IRS Hearing Sparks Clash; Possible Russian Sanctions; U.S. Imposes Sanctions; Crimeans to Vote on Joining Russia; Cruz Wow Crowd at Conservative Event; Hillary: Putin "A Tough Guy with a Thin Skin"

Aired March 06, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Together they lead the powerful and influential House Oversight Committee, but California Republican Darrell Issa and Maryland Democrat Elijah Cummings showed anything but unity during an IRS hearing yesterday, taking aim at one another in a heated exchange that shocked many of those in attendance and later led Issa to accuse Cummings of slander.

Senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns has more.

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JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was pure junkyard politics. Republican Committee Chairman Darrell Issa kicked it off --

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The committee will come to order.

JOHNS: -- by forcing former IRS official Lois Lerner to come before the committee and invoke her right to refuse to testify even though she'd already done it months before.

ISSA: Are you still seeking a one-week delay in order to testify?

LOIS LERNER, FMR. DIRECTOR, IRS EXEMPT ORGANIZATIONS: On the advice of my counsel, I respectfully exercise my Fifth Amendment right and decline to answer that question.

JOHNS (voice-over): Issa tried to adjourn the meeting.

ISSA: I can see no point in going further. I have no expectation that Ms. Lerner will cooperate with this committee and, therefore, we should (ph) adjourn.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), RANKING MEMBER, OVERSIGHT CMTE.: Chairman. Chairman.

JOHNS: But Congressman Elijah Cummings, the committee's top Democrat, wasn't having it.

CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, you cannot run a committee like this. You just cannot do this. This is - we're better than that as a country. We're better than that as a committee.

JOHNS: What followed was a bare-knuckled display of how much these guys don't like each other.

CUMMINGS: And I want to ask a question.

JOHNS: Ugly.

ISSA: You're all free to leave. We've adjourned. But the gentleman may ask his question.

JOHNS: Issa trying to get people to leave the room, signaling for the microphones to be turned off, Cummings demanding to be heard.

CUMMINGS: One (INAUDIBLE). What's the big deal?

JOHNS: And he was heard by the microphones attached to the TV cameras in the room.

ISSA: (INAUDIBLE) question.

CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE) - but I -- if you will sit down and allow me to ask the questions. I am a member of the Congress of the United States of America. I am tired of this.

JOHNS: Cummings also accused Issa of making claims in the news media about Lois Lerner, but not sharing his documentation.

CUMMINGS: Although he provided a copy of his report to Fox, he refused my request to provide it to the members of the committee.

JOHNS: In the end, Issa said this may mean the investigation has hit a brick wall.

ISSA: It may well be that we have gotten to the bottom of it. At this point, roads lead to Ms. Lerner, the witness who took the fifth. She becomes one of the key characters at this point. Had she been willing to explain those e-mails, which were provided through separate subpoenas, then we could have perhaps brought this to a close. Without that, it may dead end with Ms. Lerner.

JOHNS (on camera): The only way we might find out for sure if Lois Lerner is protected by the Fifth Amendment, as she asserts, is if she's ever held in contempt of Congress and it goes to a judge who would make the determination. So far, no decision has been made on whether the Republican-controlled committee will try to take that issue to that level.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

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JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Our thanks to Joe Johns. In the next hour, Congressman Elijah Cummings will hold a news conference. CNN will monitor his remarks beginning at 10:30 and bring you news if he makes any. Still to come, the U.S. now imposing sanctions on some Russian and Ukrainian officials, but how does that help deescalate (ph) this crisis? We'll talk to a former U.S. ambassador. We're back after this quick break.

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TAPPER: Good morning and thanks for joining me in this special hour of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jake Tapper, in for Carol Costello, continuing with our coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.

Happening now, top military officials are going to be defending their budget. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, will be appearing before the House Armed Services Committee. The pair will be taking questions about their budget proposal. They're also, of course, expected to answer some tough questions from lawmakers about the situation in Ukraine and what U.S. intelligence knew and what U.S. intelligence failed to anticipate.

Europe's 28 leaders are in an emergency meeting on Ukraine discussing possible sanctions against Russia. CNN's Erin McLaughlin is covering the meeting in Brussels.

Erin, when we spoke yesterday, we talked about the U.K. and Germany being skeptical that they would -- you and I were being skeptical that they were going to impose any sort of sanctions. Has there been any movement at all by the EU on imposing sanctions?

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's very much wait and see at this moment, Jake. Just a short while ago, we heard from the Ukrainian prime minister giving a press conference here in Brussels, calling on Europe for more support and cooperation. This after the European Commission yesterday announced a $15 billion aid package for a country that badly needs it. Many experts saying that Ukraine is staring down the barrel of a financial crisis, could default on its loans as early as this month.

Now, the tone for today's meeting was very much set by EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton on Monday. She said that either Russia deescalates or risk damaging its relationship with Europe. A working lunch now underway involving heads of state and government. German Chancellor Angela Merkel, one of them. She's seen as a key player in all of this. Take a listen to what she had to say when she arrived here today.

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ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We cannot go back to the daily routine, especially not when there's still no diplomatic talks. This means we have to consider sanctions in various ways. If we have to impose sanctions or not depends on the outcome of the diplomatic efforts. The foreign ministers are meeting at the same time in Rome and, therefore, the day will show in which direction we go.

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MCLAUGHLIN: So a range of sanctions currently up for debate, varying from stringent to symbolic. Possible sanctions against individual assets, as well as suspension of negotiations on visa issues. But it's very much wait and see. Europe -- there have been divisions in Europe on this issue. Countries in east, eastern European countries, wanting more stringent sanctions. Countries such as Germany wanting more debate. So, again, time will tell. We'll probably know in the next few hours or so, Jake.

TAPPER: And, Erin McLaughlin, I think the United States does about $40 billion in trade with Russia every year. It's more than 10 times that for the EU. And Russia has threatened to retaliate, to seize the assets of any company if that company's country of origin imposes sanctions. How concerned are the members of the European Union, the officials there, by the prospect that this could really cause them some economic damage?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I think that's a real concern, Jake, considering that Russia is the -- is Europe's third largest trading partner, as well as a number one provider to Europe of gas, of energy. So all of those factors are certainly a consideration, especially given the fact that Europe is just emerging from its own economic crisis. Countries such as Germany, such as Britain, do have strong economic ties. So all of that a consideration going into today's talks.

Jake.

TAPPER: Erin McLaughlin, thank you so much.

With the crisis in Ukraine, we're witnessing global diplomacy in action and things are moving very quickly. This morning, the U.S. sanctioned some Russian and Ukrainian officials by imposing a visa ban and Russia's foreign minister is meeting U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry in Rome after the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, accused NATO of making the situation in the Ukraine worse. Joining us now is Christopher Hill. He's a four-time ambassador, most recently serving as U.S. ambassador to Iraq. He's also the dean at the University of Denver.

Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us.

Let's start by talking about the sanctions imposed by the U.S. State Department this morning. Will Russia take this kind of visa ban seriously, you think?

CHRISTOPHER HILL, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, I think, frankly, these sanctions imposed by the U.S. really have to do with -- it's more of a Washington story. The administration wants to get out ahead of the Congress, otherwise the Congress will get out ahead of the United States. I - ahead of the administration.

I don't think these sanctions will have much of an effect of the way -- on the way the Russians really think about it. I don't think they're coercive in the sense that the Russians will hit the side of the head with the palm of their hand, say, oh, boy, we've got to change our ways. So I think it's more punitive and it's more an effort to show the U.S. isn't just sitting there. The U.S. is doing something.

I think the real action, though, is on the diplomatic side right now.

TAPPER: How so? What do you think is -- needs to be done there and what do you think can be accomplished there on the diplomatic side?

HILL: Well, clearly there are a couple of things going. First of all, the European Union is looking at putting together this pretty big package for Ukraine. Secondly, the Ukrainians have to kind of come up with a government that's perceived as more inclusive, that is that does involve the eastern parts of the country, that they do imply that they understand that Ukraine is not just western Ukraine. And so they have a lot to do there.

And I think it's important that the U.S. secretary of state not be perceived as only talking to the Russians, that is over the head of the Ukrainians, which is why this whole secondary piece of trying to get the Ukrainians to talk directly to the Russians, or trying to get the Russians to talk directly to the Ukrainians is quite critical. And then we have this little time bomb ticking away, which is the idea that Crimea will then, you know, some time in a few days really, 10 days, will try to have a referendum -

TAPPER: Right.

HILL: Will which apparently try to join Russia. And that's not helpful to anybody right now.

TAPPER: Mr. Ambassador, let me put you on hold for one second, because Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel is talking right now before the House Armed Services Committee. We're going to take that live.

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: And we are also focused on reaffirming our commitments to allies in central and eastern Europe.

I strongly support these efforts, the way it is being handled. The steps the president has taken to apply both the diplomatic and economic pressure on Russia and the continued collaboration, coordination with our European partners. This includes the new visa restrictions and an executive order authorizing sanctions (INAUDIBLE) announced this morning.

Earlier this week, as you know, I directed the Department of Defense to suspend all military to military engagements and exercises with Russia. And yesterday I announced a series of steps that we'll take to reinforce allies in central and eastern Europe during this crisis. These include stepping up our joint training through our aviation detachment in Poland. And I was advised this morning that that continues to move forward. I visited Poland a few weeks ago, and we are going to augment our participation in NATO's ballistic air policing mission and it was advised this morning that we have six F- 16s that have arrived in Latvia as of the last 24 hours.

TAPPER: That's Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel testifying before the House Armed Services Committee. Let's go back to Ambassador Christopher Hill to get his reaction to this crisis.

Sir, I'm sorry for interrupting. We were talking before we cut to the live coverage of Defense Secretary Hagel about the referendum in Crimea that will allow the parliament there to vote on whether or not the citizens of Crimea want to become a Russian federation. What can you tell us about that and how much do you think that could complicate this situation?

HILL: Well, clearly, it will complicate the situation. I mean your -- your reporter on the scene, Elise Labott, was talking about the fact that at the end of the day probably we'll have a situation that kind of looks like the status quo. That is with a Russian presence in Crimea, but a Crimea that is nominally administered by the Ukraine.

So if this -- if this referendum were to try to change that, that would be I think, problematic because you would have a situation where there are fewer of these, if I can say, pro-Russian voters in Ukraine with the result that Ukraine will continue to kind of move westward, which is not what the Russians want to see.

So for a lot of reasons, I don't think anyone is really interested in this -- in this vote happening. And so probably there will be some effort to say its nonbinding, that it's an expression of the will of the people but not one that will be turned into -- into any kind of change on the -- on the actual map.

So already we've heard the Ukrainians saying that this is an illegal vote. Probably it will simply be a vote that does not have legal consequences of some kind, but that it will be allowed to go on. So probably they'll try to defuse it in that sense. I do believe the Russians are trying to -- beginning to look for a way out of this. I'm not sure international civilian monitors is a dog that's going to hunt in this, but nonetheless, I think there does need to be real stepping up of the diplomacy. And I think that's what's happening as we speak.

TAPPER: Do you think this is ultimately going to end somewhat like it did in 2008 where Putin ultimately in 2008, he went into Georgia and seized control of two -- two breakaway republics, went into Georgia a little bit more and then withdrew and kept the two republics and that's the status quo. The world expressed outrage and then ultimately just forgot about it and moved on. Is that situation going to repeat itself here with Crimea?

HILL: Well you know that sounds kind of uninspiring but, yes, and it's probably the best outcome we can expect here. You know, I don't think we want to go into some huge blown -- full-blown crisis with Russia. You do kind of wonder how this present generation of leaders would have handled the Cuban missile crisis, which finally went out with a -- in a way that I think protected everybody's interests, even though it wasn't the most dramatic way of ending. That is, we ended up pulling some systems out of Turkey at the time.

So I think if we can get there to what you describe, I don't think it's such a terrible ending for what has been a real problem. I think Russia needs to be thinking about its own internal problems and how it can move westward. How it can join up with international systems.

Clearly Putin is not taking the country in the right direction in terms of its democracy, but we can -- we can continue to work with them, at least get their economy moved westward and eventually maybe their democracy will move along in that direction as well.

So I think, you know, we have to be very careful about all of the testosterone that gets -- gets spent up and starting these things and figuring out how we can finish them.

TAPPER: Former Ambassador Christopher Hill, thank you so much.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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TAPPER: Today the annual gathering of conservative leaders and activists called CPAC kicks off in Maryland; among the headliners Texas Senator and Tea Party favorite Ted Cruz.

CNN's chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash is there. Dana good morning. What's happening so far there?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Well it's only been underway for about an hour. We've already had two potential 2016 Republican candidates speak including one who is certainly speaking before a friendly crowd here of conservative activists and that is Ted Cruz. He not surprisingly went after the big issue that he's been talking about but also had problems with his party about and that is Obamacare.

Listen to what he said.

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SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We need to repeal every single word of Obamacare.

When millions of Americans stood up last fall and said stop this train wreck, this disaster that is Obamacare, that is hurting millions of people, the Democrats said, the main stream media said -- although I repeat myself -- they said this is hopeless. Don't you understand? Just move on, just accept it, you can't do anything to stop this.

Yes, we can. You know, along with hope and change, that's pretty good.

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BASH: So you see there, a ripping off an audience member quoting Barack Obama during the 2008 campaign clearly didn't mean to say what he did. But Jake the key speech that we are really going to be waiting for is about 11:45 and that is the New Jersey Governor Chris Christie who is going to come here. He was not here last year. He was invited and then maybe uninvited. But this is going to be one that we are watching to see how he is received by these conservative activists -- Jake.

TAPPER: All right Dana Bash thank you so much.

Hillary Clinton is clarifying her remarks that seemed to compare Vladimir Putin to Hitler telling an audience in Los Angeles that while the men are not the same the situation is different -- the tactics they're using. Hitler before World War 2 and Putin in Ukraine today are similar. Clinton also recalling her tenure as Secretary of State when discussing Putin as a leader.

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HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: And as for President Putin, I know we are dealing with a tough guy with a thin skin. I've had a lot of experience -- well not only with him but people like that, but in particular President Putin and I know that his political vision is of a greater Russia. I said when I was still secretary that his goal is to re-Sovietize Russia's periphery.

But in the process, he is squandering the potential of such a great nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Anna Palmer is Politico's senior Washington correspondent. Anna, good morning. Every word Hillary Clinton speaks, every move she makes is viewed by us in the media in context of a possible run for president in 2016. What's been the response to these Putin remarks?

ANNA PALMER, POLITICO SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I think any time Hillary Clinton speaks she gets a big response, right? And so what you're seeing she actually had some Republicans come out in her defense saying you had Senator John McCain, you had Senator Marco Rubio. Both say that you know they agreed with the context that she was putting forward.

But at the same time you have other Republicans who are really highlighting her relationship and what she did at Secretary of State in terms of the whole resetting of the relationship with Russia as detriment to maybe her potential presidential run.

TAPPER: And to be clear, what she was doing was talking about how Hitler claimed that he was going into countries, Poland, Czechoslovakia to save help ethnic Germans there. And Putin was making the same basic argument about ethnic Russians in Crimea.

But of course Russia lost then the Soviet Union lost millions of soldiers fighting the Nazi. It's not a comparison without some risk of offending people. Can you believe that this is a statement she made not considering the implications, not considering that she would be further out on this than the Obama administration? Or do you think that she's calculated enough even in the off the road, quote unquote "sessions" to say that knowing that it would get out.

PALMER: I think invoking Adolf Hitler in any context is certainly going to raise some red flags. And as a very seasoned politician, few times are you just off-the-cuff mentioning something like that. But I mean it is very telling that we are here talking about Hillary Clinton more than what president Obama is deciding to do today and whether the House is going to vote on a package as well on this. She drives headlines in a way that few politicians can.

TAPPER: Anna Palmer with Politico. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM begins after this quick break.

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