Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Stolen Passports Raise Terrorism Concerns; Florida's Stand Your Ground Law; George Zimmerman Greets at Gun Show; Paul Wins CPAC Polls, Considers 2016 Bid

Aired March 10, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: More now on the disappearance of Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. Investigators are trying to figure out how two people were able to board the flight with stolen passports. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers says it actually happens more than you might think.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: It's not common, but it is not unheard of either, that stolen passports can be repurposed and used mainly for the quality of the passports themselves. And they would be doctored up. They would be individuals who would have the skill set to change those passports just enough that they could identify with the individual in -- that was using it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Let's bring in John Magaw. He's the former undersecretary of the Transportation Security Administration, the TSA. He's also the former director of the Secret Service.

Welcome.

JOHN MAGAW, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY, TSA: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: So what Mike Rogers said, it -- that's pretty disturbing because you would like to think this could never happen.

MAGAW: Well, it is very common, as you can see, as many passports have been stolen and lost. And a lot of times the terrorist groups, the groups who want to import drug personnel into the country, excuse me, and others, fugitives, use these passports and they steal so many of them that pretty soon they can get almost a look-a-like by just adjusting hair or a little bit of facial features. They can use these passports almost as they were. We need to get to the point where there's fingerprints and iris so that it can't - it would reduce it a great deal.

COSTELLO: Apparently investigators have these two men on close -- close circuit security cameras, but they're not releasing those pictures to the media. And we also now know that these were not Asian looking men, because you know the passports were stolen from Italy from an Italian citizen and from an Austrian citizen. So they were not Asian. But as I said, investigators have them on security cameras. Should they release that to the public?

MAGAW: Well, that's - you know, it's -- I don't know that much about the details. If I was on the scene, you could answer that question. But a lot of times you need to keep that quiet until you, until you run it all the way through. So many times, and in order to get the information out, we giveaway investigative techniques and things like that which then helps the terrorist or the would-be bombers. I'm not saying this is a terrorist - terrorism attack, although it - it leans (ph) very heavily that way. But we don't want to -- we need to stay a step ahead of them, because they look for the weaknesses. And if we start talking about how we're doing these things, then those weaknesses, they capitalize on them. And they've obviously noticed a weakness in that airport. They will go -- they will do dry runs. They will find a way. And then these passports may have looked quite a bit like the individuals who actually boarded the aircraft.

COSTELLO: Well, we've heard officials talk about how the pilots make - oh, I'm sorry, I have to ask you this question first because it goes in order. We know that these two tickets were purchased together in Thailand and that they were one way flights. You said this leans heavily towards terrorism. Is that another indicating factor?

MAGAW: Oh, that's a - that's a big indicator. It's one way it's purchased just the day before, two of them together, the same two with the fake passport. But, again, we can't have tunnel vision because they could be just wanting to get to Europe. Although on the board that same day, the airline board, they could have went to Europe nonstop out of there on three other flights. So why did they take this one? That's another indicator that they wanted to be on this one for a particular reason.

COSTELLO: Now, you mentioned something about a dry run. What did you mean by that?

MAGAW: Well, they steal passports. Then they've got a stack of passport. This is a terrorist group. They've got a stack of passports. They have about a list of maybe five or six, maybe it's 10, of airlines, individual places or locations that they may want to cause damage and they do a dry run. For instance, in this one, you would go to the airport, you would take that flight and fly that route and see when they're over water, at what altitude, because, you know, the captain will normally say we're at altitude, cruising altitude. That gives them the information, where do they need to sit in that plane if they're going to discharge it inside the aircraft in order to blow a hole in the side of the aircraft. If they blow a 12-foot round hole in the side, it's going to - that aircraft is going to come apart very quickly.

And also then, what are the kind of weaknesses in these checkpoints along the line at that particular airport. And then they lay their plan. There's the weaknesses. Here's where we can get through. Let's go ahead and do this one. And, you know, our bombers or person that are going to cause some kind of a problem, we'll put them on there. But if you -- if you take it in too much of a tunnel vision, you miss that ground crew. How about that cleaning crew back when we had the Philippine Airlines that were going to fly arose the Atlantic -- not Philippine Airlines but the country of the Philippines, it was going to be flying across the Atlantic and they wanted to blow eight or 10 of our airliners up at one time. That plot had plastics that would be put underneath the seat cushion or in the life jacket and be - and not be seen. And they could be put in there by cleaning crews.

You also have the caters. They could shove one of those carts on the end of that lock -- you've heard them lock in place -- and that would be your bomb right there. So there's so many ways that this could to be done. (INAUDIBLE) try to figure out what -- within our plans and within our capabilities, terrorists, what's the best plan for us? OK, here's one. Let's do this one. They might have eight or --

COSTELLO: Well, in your mind, sir, could this have been a dry run? I mean is it an educated guess?

MAGAW: No, I - no, I -- an educated guess, estimate, no, this was not a dry run. They've already done the dry run. This was the actual - this was the actual flight.

COSTELLO: Do you think that this is terrorism related?

MAGAW: All of the indicators are there, but let's let them decide because they've got to run down all these things. What happened while it was on the ground? How much was it secured when it was totally empty? Then who put the baggage on? Was then -- the baggage could have been contaminated inside the terminal and just not picked up and put on the plane and it discharges at 35,000 or 37,000 feet by an altimeter detonator. So there's so many things to figure in here.

But there -- when you start listing all of the pros in terms of being a terrorist event, the way outnumber the negatives. Doesn't mean it is, but it's quick, it's devastating, it's gone. What bothers me a lot right now is why there's no -- no debris. And, you know, there's, in the last few years, there's also been things happen in the cockpit that have caused problems. So every element has to be looked at here.

COSTELLO: Thank you, sir, for your insight. John Magaw, we really appreciate it.

MAGAW: My pleasure.

COSTELLO: And a big part of me hopes you're wrong, though. Thank you so much.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the parents of Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis gathering this hour in Florida in protest against the state's stand your ground law. But it is really possible to tweak the controversial law? We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: George Zimmerman was all smiles this weekend at a Florida gun show autographing photos and greeting a small crowd, and I mean a small crowd, that came out the see the maniac quitted of Trayvon Martin's murder. Hard to believe, but it's already been two years since Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin. Two years since Florida's stand your grounder law became national news. Right now in Tallahassee, Trayvon's parents, as well as Jordan Davis' family, another armed teenager who was shot to death in Florida, are uniting to march and rally against the law. Also there, Nicole Oulson, the widow of the man shot and killed by a retired Tampa police captain at a Wesley Chapel movie theater.

With me now: CNN legal analyst Paul Callan and HLN legal analyst Joey Jackson. Welcome, gentlemen.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right first question, the Florida legislature has no intentions of tweaking Stand Your Ground; an NRA back bill expanding self-defense statute just failed through a house committee. Joey, will this latest rally really make a difference?

JACKSON: You know, Carol, you certainly would hope so but to your point I think there's large public support in Florida for the Stand Your Ground law. In fact they did a poll that suggested that 60 percent of Floridians did, in fact, favor the law and there were only 34 percent that opposed it.

In addition to that, Carol, as you know, the governor appointed a task force a couple of years ago which came out with its recommendations last year as a 19-member task force where it was led by the lieutenant governor, herself an African-American woman and there were a number of people on that task force -- politicians, members of the community, attorneys, prosecutors and in fact, they said that the recommendations -- they made some recommendations but at the heart of it, Carol, they said that the law should stand. There needs to be some tweaks to it, perhaps that's the case but an all out repeal the committee said no.

COSTELLO: Well interestingly, Paul, Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman's attorney says Stand Your Ground actually confuses jurors because defense attorneys bring out Stand Your Ground even if they are not to use the statute in their defense.

Now O'Mara wants to give judges the power to stop that. Will that fix the problem surrounding this law, Paul?

CALLAN: Well, I think it will make a little bit of a dent in it. You know, there's a big misconception about the Stand Your Ground law and that's something Mark O'Mara was talking about. Stand Your Ground is really another way of saying you don't have the duty to retreat if somebody threatens to do bodily, serious bodily harm to you in a place outside of your home.

And you know, if you look at those two case the Dunn case and the Zimmerman case for instance -- in the Zimmerman case, of course not withstanding his bad taste in appearing at gun shows now, at the time of trial he indicated that he was, in fact, attacked by Trayvon Martin, he was on the ground being pummeled, and he reached for his gun in self-defense.

Now there would have been no opportunity to retreat on that fact pattern so Stand Your Ground wouldn't apply. Similarly in that Dunn case, you know the loud music, the so-called loud music case Dunn claimed that a shotgun or another kind of rifle was pointed at him. And you couldn't really retreat in the face of a shotgun because you just pulled the trigger and it goes off and you get killed. So there was no duty to retreat there.

But these laws create, I think, sort of a trigger happy atmosphere in Stand Your Ground states because you kind of get this feeling hey, I can stand my ground and shoot back and there's no analyzing the situation saying you know maybe I should be careful about it. You know, possession of guns and gun permits in Florida, I saw an interesting statistic are way up since Stand Your Ground cases started to get publicized.

So it's encouraging people to carry guns to act in self-defense.

COSTELLO: I think maybe the case that will -- will make the difference and tell me if I'm wrong Joey is the movie theater case because if that defendant uses Stand Your Ground it's just so egregious to most people because I just don't think throwing popcorn is you know, threatening someone's life.

JACKSON: And you know what, Carol? There will be a lot of people out there that agree with that. The mass public support for that proposition including me. I mean when does reasonableness turn to the point of ridiculousness? And that is certainly if someone's life is in imminent fear that's one matter but to suggest that popcorn does is quite another.

The issue it really comes down to Carol is whether there's public support to get it done. Do we have the climate with that now with Trayvon Martin's parents marching today you know with Reverend Al Sharpton and certainly Jordan Davis' parents and Miss Olson the widow now. The climate is there. But whether there's the will to do it I think is another matter.

But I think recommendations that were made from the Governor's task force can certainly be implemented. So if you're not going repeal the law at least you tinker with it such that you make effective changes to stop the madness.

COSTELLO: Paul Callan and Joey Jackson thank you so much.

JACKSON: Thank you Carol, have a great day.

CALLAN: Nice being with you Carol.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM Rand Paul says a bid for the White House could be in his future but so is broadening the Republican Party. Will CPAC's straw poll victory help him with both?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Checking our "Top Stories" at 52 minutes past the hour.

NSA leaker Edward Snowden expected to speak at the South by Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas. In just a few hours Snowden will appear via satellite from Russia. He'll participate in an interactive portion of the program to discuss online privacy. Last year, Russia granted Snowden asylum after he leaked thousands of classified government documents.

Runners gearing up for next month's Boston marathon can expect way tighter security. Emergency management officials will hold a news conference later this morning to discuss new security guidelines in light of last year's bombing. Race officials have already warned runners that hydration packs, backpacks and strollers will be banned from the course.

A frigid new record in the Great Lakes, Lake Michigan is now 93 percent covered in ice. The National Weather Service says last month's frigid temperatures caused the ice concentration on the surface to rapidly increase. The previous record was set back, way back in 1977.

He is the darling of CPAC, two years running. I'm talking about Rand Paul, who once again took the top spot in the CPAC straw poll coming in far ahead of his nearest rival Ted Cruz. And now Paul admits he is thinking about a 2016 presidential run.

National political reporter, Peter Hamby joins me now from Washington. The biggest surprise to me was that Ted Cruz got only 11 percent of the vote.

PETER HAMBY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: That was surprising, Carol, we all thought he would do actually a little bit better. He finished in a distant second to Rand Paul who cleaned up. He got 30 percent of the vote. This was his crowd. CPAC is a conservative event traditionally. It has been around for 40 years.

But in recent years, it's become younger. It's almost like spring break for college Republicans. And young people are trending libertarian. And that favors Rand Paul. He -- this was absolutely his crowd. He gave up and gave a really unapologetic, libertarian leaning speech on Friday. And it was by far the most well received speech of the conference. And almost half of the vote in this CPAC straw poll of which he won so convincingly were from people between the ages of 18 and 25. A lot of students there.

So this is a really good talking point for him at the moment. But it also raises expectations for him next year at the straw poll when the Republican presidential primary will really be under way.

Rand Paul, it is no secret that he is thinking about running for president. I would be shocked if he doesn't. So if he doesn't clear the bar next year where he'll be talking about oh this is a bad straw poll for Rand Paul but for now it's a good, it's a good little momentum for him -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Something else interesting that Rand Paul talks about, he says he wants to broaden the party, not criticize other Republicans; seemingly a swipe at Ted Cruz who was criticized for slamming other Republican presidential nominees at CPAC. So is Paul using that incident to position himself within the larger party?

HAMBY: Yes this is a really interesting thing that Rand Paul has been doing really over the last couple of years. Remember he was elevated to the Senate in 2010 on the back of the Tea Party. But unlike a lot of his sort of Tea Party peers, he hasn't really taken a hard line on every single issue across the board. Remember he's sort of at the splitting the baby between making nice with his sort of libertarian base -- the people that supported his father, Ron Paul.

But also, trying to reach out to the Republican establishment, expand that sort of ideological appeal to a larger segment of the electorate. He recently met with Eric Holder, the Attorney General, who he is suing over NSA surveillance. But he also met with him on something they could agree on, which was reducing mandatory minimums for drug convictions sentencing reform.

So he's you know really trying to expand the party's reach. He is at least talking about it in a little bit more of a substantive way than some of his conservative compatriots who are thinking about running for president in 2016.

Peter Hamby, many thanks.

HAMBY: Thanks Carol.

COSTELLO: The next hour of "CNN NEWSROOM" after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)