Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Recreating Flight 370; Jet's Communication System Shut Off Separately

Aired March 14, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're maybe I don't know -- what do you think 100 and some miles away from --

MITCHELL CASADO, PILOT TRAINER, 777 COCKPIT SIMULATOR: Yes we're about 180 miles roughly away.

SAVIDGE: And just so the audience knows, Carol, the whole idea is we've plugged everything in from the information we had from the knowledge of that flight as it was on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

Let me point out something here. I mentioned we are on automatic pilot. That's why you don't see us touching anything. If you deviated from course, if this plane turned, here is the way it would happen. You would turn off the automatic pilot. That triggers an immediate alarm. In other words you don't veer off course without somebody knowing. You can shut it off and you get back on course again by doing that.

But what I'm saying is that there is nothing that is done on this airplane without people in the cockpit and in some respects on the ground, knowing what was happening.

COSTELLO: Yes I'm going to ask you the same question about that transponder that I have asked before because so many people ask about that. You can actually switch the transponder off. Why is that possible?

SAVIDGE: Yes you know it's funny you mentioned that. Because that was the first thing when I got in here and saw it. I asked Mitchell about it too -- why in the world is there an on/off switch.

CASADO: That's for when we're on the ground so the -- we're no long a factor for the other (inaudible) in the sky once we've landed. Once we've landed, we are off their screens we don't want -- where you don't want to clutter the screens too much. So we turn it off. We are no longer a factor for the traffic. And we don't turn it on again until we are in the air.

SAVIDGE: Yes so I mean it's a fairly simple thing is that when you're on the ground, we don't need it anymore. So you turn it off. For that -- yes that was immediately in my mind, if it is so vital, why would you even have a way to mess with it?

COSTELLO: Or maybe they'll think more about that later. Another question just for Mitchell since you're a pilot. So the data reporting system shut down at 1:07. And then 14 minutes later, the transponder shut down. What does that say to you?

CASADO: That says to me that somebody -- that it's very unlikely that this was a mechanical failure or an electrical failure or any failure. That says to me that somebody on board this airplane onboard the flight deck deliberately tried to turn those systems off. Why they try to do that? I don't know. But that's the big question and it's something that you would never, ever do. It's just unheard of.

SAVIDGE: We talk here about the redundancy that is built into this aircraft and we cannot stress how safe this airplane is. It's meant to fly long distances over vast, empty oceans. So everything is backed up, backed up, backed up. There are at least six backups from the power systems if there would be some kind of failure. And I believe, Mitchell, we said eight for the hydraulic systems. The hydraulic turbo move all the things that a person could not, the flaps the wheels.

CASADO: That's right yes absolutely. There are so many redundancies at a minimum a triple redundant. It's one of the most sophisticated airplanes ever built. It has the most powerful engines ever produced by man. One of these engines could power a 747. A 747 has four engines and one of these could outperform all four of those engines.

SAVIDGE: You know Mitchell mentioned something to me yesterday if I'm staggering one engine. These are Rolls Royce engines. There are two of them on this airplane. One engine alone running at idle would suck all the air out of Madison Square Gardens in less than one second.

COSTELLO: Wow.

SAVIDGE: That's how powerful these engines are.

CASADO: Yes.

SAVIDGE: Incredible.

COSTELLO: Incredible OK this is fascinating, guys. I've got to take a break.

We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: With the search area for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 expanding so is speculation about happened to the aircraft. A new report from Reuters suggests that someone deliberately flew the plane toward the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean. Malaysian officials tells CNN that two of the plane's communications systems were shut off separately.

Joining me now former U.S. Department of Transportation Inspector General, Mary Schiavo. Welcome Mary.

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DOT: Thank you. COSTELLO: OK so I'll go through what we know. First at 1:07, on Saturday morning, the plane's data recording system shut down; 14 minutes later supposedly at 1:21 a.m., the transponder sent its last signal.

Now authorities believe they were turned off separately and deliberately. Would that mean we can now rule out that some catastrophic event happened?

SCHIAVO: No because they can't say that. All we know at this point is they stopped transmitting data. We don't know why, we don't know what happened? There is no way to know if they were turned off in the cockpit or not. What we really have is we have six data points. We have the point where they turned, the island just past Malaysia where they think they got a radio or a radar tracing hit and then, the four data points that were sent from the plane to the satellite. And that's all we have. And we can't speculate how, why we are -- well we can speculate because that's how we used to help to solve the problem. We can guess.

But there is -- there is no evidence that goes in that transmission that says this was shut off or it just stopped transmitting. So it's a -- it's a very big mystery. And you know frankly, there is no evidence that it's hijacking or terrorism or sabotage yet. Everything is just a theory.

COSTELLO: So another theory out there is that the plane went off course and it flew for four hours with no communications. And that's one of the reasons why this U.S. ship is going out to the Indian Ocean to search. So what do we make of that?

SCHIAVO: Well you know there are several scenarios where things like that have happened in the past. And you know the very sad scenario is of course the Payne Stewart situation where the plane literally crossed the United States. The pilots were not alive or responsive. And we were able to track that plane.

The United States of America did not have to go shoot that plane down. Because we knew the way the plane was headed we knew the plane's capabilities. And we knew that the plane would fly along on course until it ran out of fuel. And that's -- and we knew exactly where it was going to come down and no one had to shoot it down because it was coming down in an unpopulated area.

This plane is even fancier than that plane, this plane can travel along on the same course even after it has suffered some catastrophic event, such as a depressurization or a fuselage crack or even a -- some kind of an electrical problem. And it would continue on in the line.

Now what we don't have are the exact points. If it continued on in a straight line, that's one thing that a plane could do by itself. If it continued to make corrections, if these wave points indicate that the plane was turning, moving around stuff, you know maneuvering to get into a runway, then you've got a pretty much fail-safe idea that someone was flying the plane but flying along in a straight line until you run out of jet fuel is no indication that someone is flying the plane.

COSTELLO: Oh geez, there's just so many questions unanswered. Mary Schiavo, thanks so much.

And part of the reason we are so confused in so many theories are being thrown around is because, you know, contradictions and confusion have marked the search for Malaysian Airlines Flight 370 almost from the beginning.

The Malaysian government in particular facing sharp criticism for how it's handled this mystery so far. Evy Poumpouras is a security and threat assessment expert and a former secret service agent. She joins me now from New York. Evy, I'm sorry. I mispronounced your name. I apologize. But welcome I'm glad you're here.

EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: You've worked a lot with foreign governments. What do you think is the reason for all of these conflicting reports?

POUMPOURAS: Well as far as the conflicting reports coming from the Malaysian government, if you think about it this way, put yourself there would you want all this information out there initially, as far as even them not checking those passports for those stolen passports correctly, them not handling the situation. It puts blame on the government in the country.

So a lot of it is the government itself trying to deflect and prevent any bad publicity on their part so to speak. It makes them look bad. And as far as terrorism goes and everyone the first (inaudible) they weren't really have been trying to avoid that topic of hijacking when it's still a very strong possibility, it's always been a strong possibility.

But nobody really wants that. Nobody wants to have that on their basically on their track record. And that's where the issue comes in with Malaysia.

COSTELLO: Yes, but 239 people are missing. Their family is in anguish. Isn't it time to put embarrassment aside?

POUMPOURAS: I think it's a different part of the world. And their customs and the way of thinking is drastically different than ours. We are a little bit more forthcoming and we don't have such a strong hierarchy as they do. The thing is this, they don't -- a lot of information, they are not sure what's going on. So they are overwhelmed. And that's very clear because in some of the press conferences in one in particular the head of the defense came out and said, look, we're trying to do a search but at the same time we're just trying to coordinate all these other countries that are involved.

So you can tell there is a lot of stress there. They are trying to find the plane at the same time they are trying to deal with the United States, China and other countries, other bigger countries, chiefs coming in to tell you how to do your search. COSTELLO: OK well let's talk about the terrorism angle because that's you're bailiwick. You know we're now in the seventh day of searching for this plane. If it was terrorism, no one has claimed responsibility. Is that unusual?

POUMPOURAS: It is unusual. But, let's look at it this way. Let's say it is terrorism. Let's say there is a group out there who intended to do this but for whatever reason, it did not go as planned. Let's say perhaps there was a different plan. The plane was meant to do something else.

Maybe you would not want to come out and say, hey, we want to take claim for this. Because maybe there is a different agenda or something else planned for later on or maybe they are sitting back and watching the whole world confused and not knowing what's going on. If I were terrorists and I were watching this, I would get a pretty good chuckle out of it unfortunately because you're causing, what -- chaos, confusion and panic. And that's the goal of terrorism.

COSTELLO: Well homeland security is involved in this investigation as is the Secret Service. What are they doing on the ground?

POUMPOURAS: Homeland Security is going to be very heavily involved. And I think now that we see U.S. officials strongly involved, we are going to see better answers. I think the first several days, we let the foreign government, specially Malaysia, handle it but now that the U.S. is involved in taking a much more active role, I think we're going to see stronger, tangible evidence.

Now we're going to see the harder information come out but at the end of the day the information we have is just so ambiguous and complex and confusing. That's the issue. We are following all these leads but it can be mechanical but it can be terrorism.

But I think, as we're seeing the days progress, it's leaning more toward some type of human, nefarious act. And I think that's the agenda or that's the angle everyone is moving towards now.

COSTELLO: Evy Poumpouras, thank you so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

POUMPOURAS: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Our Martin Savidge is inside a flight simulator. Let's check back from with him. Hi, Martin.

SAVIDGE: Hi Carol, yes let me show where we are you know this is us right here, the triangle we're at 35,000 feet, it's night, we're over the South China Sea. And what we're coming up is B-Todd. This is the point of the last known reference for Flight 370. And we're almost there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: OK. Oddly enough, we just got this in to CNN. There has been a 5.5 magnitude earthquake that has struck right off the coast of the Andaman Islands. And of course, supposedly according to Reuters, the Andaman Islands are the islands that plane -- that missing plane was flying towards.

I don't know if it means anything. It's just kind of a weird happenstance. We don't have any reports of injuries, no tsunami warnings so that's a good thing because, of course, ships are going to be in that area searching for any debris or any sign of the missing plane.

I just thought I'd pass that along because it just adds to the whole weirdness around, the sadness around this missing plane.

Let's return to our discussion of the last-known moments inside the cockpit of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. CNN's Martin Savidge and pilot trainer Mitchell Casado are in a Boeing 777 simulator.

So you guys took that about 25 minutes ago. This is about the time when the data reporting systems are said to have shut down.

SAVIDGE: Right, Carol. Let me tell you where we are. We are at 35,000 feet. Pretty quickly after we took off, the pilot, Mitchell, put us on autopilot. You can see the readout here, 35,000 feet.

And this is what the pilots would have looked at as far as their navigation screen. The pink line is the actual path that we are taking, that 370 took. It was all programmed in before they took off the ground, similar to the GPS you have in your car but, trust me, a lot more complicated. We are coming up on IGARI, this is a checkpoint in the sky, not a real place.

It's just a point in the sky at which this aircraft will turn and make a slight turn to the right, the heading changed. B Todd (ph) is the last point where they were seen. It was right about the handover going from Malaysian air space into Vietnamese air space. And one of the things we've talked about Mitchell is the fact that that's a crucial time, a handover. It is not a time when a co-pilot or someone would say, go use the bathroom.

CASADO: Absolutely. Any time you are crossing into another country's air space. OK, you have to check in as to who you are, your intentions, your altitude, your air speed so that they would know and they are on the program, with the program.

SAVIDGE: Right. And we said -- I asked you, I said, you know, the last words recorded were, "All right, good night." As a pilot, does that sound odd or unusual?

CASADO: No, not at all. That's as per normal operations -- nothing usual about that. Both of these guys would have been in the cockpit at that time for sure.

SAVIDGE: But as far as the shutdown, Carol, that you mentioned of the data reporting right now it is inexplicable to a professional pilot. As we look here, there's a number of different pieces of equipment that report. Some of them are the radios. Of course, that would be the pilot. Other pieces are mechanical, the engines and the a-card (ph) system report just data from the aircraft. So how they shut down, exactly, it is not easy. It would have been deliberate. They all didn't go at once.

COSTELLO: So at 1:07, that data recording system just shut down. On a normal flight, what would the pilots be doing? They'd just be hanging out then right because they're inn for a long flight.

CASADO: What would the pilots be doing? Well, every flight we have what's called the pilot flying the PF and the PNF, the pilot not flying. OK, there's the captain -- it is customary for the captain to be seating in the left seat. first officer on the right.

The caption let's say, he was flying the PF. He would be actually making sure that the plane is on track, flying the airplane -- if not, with pants on. Mentally engaged. Metro checkpoint and all that stuff. First officer, pilot not flying, checking the weather, talking to air traffic control, making sure that -- you know, doing all those things.

SAVIDGE: They're remaining engaged. What's interesting is that if there is not an input by somebody, a pilot, in this airplane, every ten minutes, the airplane actually sends off an alarm to make sure that, hey, you guys didn't fall asleep? There is an alarm.

If you don't push a button or do something, that way, the plane keeps the pilot and co-pilot engaged. They aren't up here playing video games. They have to stay very focused.

COSTELLO: Well, let' me ask you this. If the data reporting system suddenly shut down, how would the pilots handle that?

CASADO: If it was a mechanical failure.

COSTELLO: If the data reporting systems just shut down, what would the pilots do?

CASADO: If the data reporting system shut down, like the ACARS, that's a relatively big deal. We would talk to company dispatch, we will talk to the maintenance. We have a direct line to the statues. The statues are those folks on the ground. The program -- who makes the flight plan. They follow us along the route the entire way. We would talk to them and try to trouble shoot it. We haven't tried that.

SAVIDGE: Absolutely and one of the things we're talking about. Why is it they are not communicating? You brought this up, Carol. There is a certain protocol, go through it again where it is that you -- aviate.

CASADO: The number one rule in flying is, and the airplane anywhere in the world is always flying that airplane. Always fly the airplane -- aviate, navigate, communicate.

Communicate is a little lower on the totem pole of concern. It could be if you have the data reports going out. There is something happening in the plane and the pilots are now focused on aviating and navigating. Maybe so focused they weren't able to put out a call but really seems unlikely.

CASADO: It's very unlikely considering the pain was at 35,000. That's the safest point in the fight. That's when the pilots have the most time to communication. If this was low to the ground, if this was a landing or a takeoff, I could see that they wouldn't communicate.

So you know, that flight that went into the Hudson River, no time to talk. It just said, unable. If you are higher up, 35,000 feet, there is plenty of time unless something happened dramatically, a catastrophic explosion, anything like that. But I think we would have seen evidence of that.

COSTELLO: Of course, the other question.

So the data recording system shut down at 1:07 and then 14 minutes later, the transponder shut down. And you guys are almost at that point right now. So take us through.

Well, I mean the transponder is right here. It looks pretty small. On the whole a dashboard of a giant like this. But it's by Liam Portman (ph). It's got a switch. It's right here. To turn it off it's three clicks to the left here. And then it's essentially off. Could you bump it accidentally -- I just don't see how you can actually gently knock it off but if you did what would happen that you like this suddenly goes off.

CASADO: There would be, a (inaudible) also on the ground. Alarms will be going off left, right and center or on the ground it would be asking us what's going on. They would be trying to trim what the problem is. It would be scrambling jets. This is -- this is a major, major event.

SAVIDGE: Yes. And the next thing that this could be used to do is to, of course, communicate there is a hijacking because the pilot could enter a code. It transmits. On the ground, that's recognized. That's what Mitchell is talking about -- scrambling jets because one of the first things they would do is let's get somebody up on that plane. Eyes on to see what's going on.

COSTELLO: See Mitchell --

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: I want to ask Mitchell more about that because that may have happened and the Malaysian government is not telling us. But tell us that again. If the data reporting system shut down and also the transponder shut down, there would be many, many things happening on the ground. So tell us again, what exactly -- what would be happening?

SAVIDGE: They would be aware on the ground and reacting how?

CASADO: They would be reacting -- they would be talking to the company. They'd be seeing if there was a -- because we are sending telemetry back to the ground. They would be asking us -- asking the company if there was anything that they saw abnormal in that telemetry. We have other ways to communicate. ACARs --

If the ACARs went out and the transponder went out, we still have radios. OK, we have back up signals radio. They would try to reach us from those frequencies.

SAVIDGE: The ground would be challenging you.

CASADO: Absolutely.

SAVIDGE: They would be saying, hey what is happening 370? What are -- you know, why don't we see you?

CASADO: There is a frequency, a 121.5 that's an emergency frequency anywhere in the world. You speak on that frequency and it overrides any other communications. If pilots were having those problems, could not communicate, they could go to 121.5.

SAVIDGE: That's why it is still such a mystery, Carol.

COSTELLO: You're not kidding.

All right. Martin Savidge, Mitchell Casado -- I have to wrap this up but thank you so much for a fascinating glimpse inside a Boeing 777.

And thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@ THIS HOUR" with Berman and Michaela after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)