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Should FBI Take the Lead; Screening Airline Pilots; Conspiracy Theories Surrounded Flight 370; Malaysia Seeks Deep Ocean Detection Equipment

Aired March 18, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: OK. So, 239 suspects, where do you begin?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Carol, one additional group of people I'd like to see interviewed in this investigation are present and former -- especially the former -- flight attendants. Ask, find out from them, find someone that's flown with either or both of these pilots. And ask them, how often do they come out that cockpit to go to the bathroom, to get food, for whatever reason?

Is it common to invite guests in? I mean we know now about the keypad and the camera and, you know, somewhat about the door security. But the door security is worthless if they frequently open it or don't leave it locked or let other strange guests, passengers, visitors come in during flight. And I think that no one would know that better than the crew that flew with them in the past.

COSTELLO: Well, that's interesting because I was talking to Bob Frances, a former NTSB investigator, yesterday. And he was particularly interested in the co-pilot, this 27-year-old, who, as we know in the past, supposedly let two young women inside the cockpit and they took pictures. So that would raise a red flag, right?

FUENTES: Absolutely. But you want to know, did that occur -- is that a fact? If you could find the exact flight attendants that were on that particular flight to confirm that, you know, you would like that confirmed by somebody who would actually know for sure. And you would think that flight attendants would have direct knowledge of who went in or who came out, especially during flight.

COSTELLO: All sorts of things, new developments are happening today. One, "The New York Times" is reporting that the course was changed by computer while the plane was in the air by someone who knew what they were doing. We already know that the transponder was shut off and certain communications were shut down. We also understand from Kyung Lah, and what you've just said, that the doors to the cockpit are usually locked. It's very hard to get inside unless, you know, something, as you suggested, happened where the pilots went out the door and somebody could slip in. As an investigator, knowing all of these things, what do you center on?

FUENTES: Well, as an investigator, you still have a problem until you know what occurred in that cockpit or who caused it to occur. So even if you have the best experts say that really only the pilots would be knowledgeable enough in a case like this to physically change the direction of the airplane using the flight management system, using that computer, that may all be true and maybe only the captain and the co-pilot, you know, were in that cockpit to do that.

But, what if they're holding a flight attendant with a knife to her throat and said, turn this plane or she dies? Now you have a little different fact pattern where maybe someone else's hand isn't touching the flight management system, but the pilots are being forced to do it or believe they're being forced to do it because someone else's life is on the line right that second.

COSTELLO: So, let's talk about the passengers then. Most of the passengers on board that plane were Chinese. China came forward today and said, look, we checked out all of the Chinese passengers. None of them have any obvious ties to terrorism.

FUENTES: Well, I mean, that may be true and all of the countries that had passengers on that flight have done the same thing, have tried to look at every possible piece of data about every passenger. Now, the problem with that is that that's being -- those searches are being done to try to verify that the passenger information is actually correct. So you also have the possibility of counterfeit passports that weren't ever reported stolen and might be more difficult to check on that and that may be ongoing, you know, as we speak and may be a much more difficult process to go through all the passengers, the entire history of the passengers, looking at whether they've ever been involved in the past in criminal activity, terrorist activity, mental instability, any of those things, for 240 people. That's a difficult process to do.

COSTELLO: There have been suggestions that the FBI should take the lead in the criminal investigation in this case. Is that everyone possible?

FUENTES: That's not going to happen. Malaysia's a sovereign country. It's their aircraft, it's their flag carrier. All we know for now is that the last place that plane was actually seen on the ground was in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. If that plane came down in another country, you would have another country's sovereignty to deal with and see what experts they ask to come help them and work on the case.

The FBI is already providing assistance in this case and has done so since the first night the plane went missing. The idea that the FBI hadn't been invited or couldn't come, that's all ridiculous. The FBI was there, has been there. Agents have been in the command post 24/7 now going on 11 days. All of the leads that need to be done by the FBI are really, back here in the U.S., and they've been done and are being done, and coordination with the other countries is ongoing.

And I think part of the problem here is that the confusion over radars and satellites and handshakes and all of that is making everything look suspect in terms of the investigation. But the intensity and aggressiveness of the criminal case has been going on from day one. They don't go by whether they label it a crime or they label it terrorism. They labeled it as a potential everything the day that plane went missing and started from there. And I've been told by a senior Malaysian official directly to me that they were focusing on pilots, crew, passengers, cargo, workers at the airport from the very first time that plane went missing. The very first day.

COSTELLO: All good. Tom Fuentes, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

FUENTES: You're welcome, Carol.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, as the captain and its first mate remain front and center in the Flight 370 investigation, we wanted to know if pilots, all pilots, are screened closely enough. We'll take a look at that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Authorities are still digging for clues into the backgrounds of every single person on board Flight 370. But everybody who was on board the missing jet, especially the captain and first mate, remain both possible victims and suspects until we learn otherwise. CNN's Brian Todd has more on just who these men are and how airlines screen pilots ahead of time for psychological and emotional issues.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're a focus of the investigation. Their homes have been searched. But so far, there's no evidence in the backgrounds of the pilots to suggest any wrongdoing. Still, Malaysian Airline's CEO says everyone in the cockpit undergoes routine psychological tests.

AHMAD JAUHARI YAHYA, CEO, MALAYSIA AIRLINES: Going forward, we will obviously look into all this and see whether we can strengthen, tighten all the various (INAUDIBLE) entry requirement.

TODD: Current and former pilots tell us the level of psychological screening for pilots depends on their airline and its governing body. 777 pilot Les Abend says his airline asked questions about his personality.

LES ABEND, 777 PILOT: Do you like your mother? Do you hate your father? You know, things of that nature. You know, have you ever harmed a small animal?

TODD: Abend says some airlines interview the pilot's friends to see if they've got psychological or emotional issues.

TODD (on camera): Abend says many U.S. based airlines go above and beyond what's required by the government. The FAA has strict rules saying pilots have to get psychological screening as part of their medical exam every year or six months. They can't fly if they've got bipolar disorder or similar problems. Some medications are banned.

TODD (voice-over): But some pilots say medical screeners don't always ask about psychological issues and it's often up to pilots to report those and report any medications they're taking.

TODD (on camera): If he or she doesn't self-report, what happens? MARK WEISS, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: If you don't self-report, it's - really, it's going unnoticed. Typically what happens is, if you have an issue, one of your crew members might recognize something like that.

TODD (voice-over): Do the airlines check on pilots to see if anything's come up in their personal lives that might cause concern? Financial problems? Maybe a worrisome illness in the family?

ABEND: The short answer is no, not until it becomes - it affects your job performance and your, you know, if you miss a trip for a particular reason.

TODD: Abend says, if airlines started doing that, privacy concerns would be raised. Does this mean there's a dangerous gap in the system?

WEISS: Pilots are, for the most part, very mentally stable, very sound people, very determined, very professional. I don't think that you're going to need or have to have the criteria tightened up.

TODD: Mark Weiss also points out many commercial pilots come straight to those jobs from the military, where they've gotten regular psychological screening.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the missing plane's spirited to North Korea, vanished in a new Bermuda Triangle? Yes, conspiracy theories abound. But just why are they so prevalent? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: I'm Carol Costello. Welcome back to a special edition of NEWSROOM.

Hoping for a hijacking, family members of the 239 people on board that missing plane are desperate for word on their loved ones. So desperate in fact the possibility of a hijacking actually lifted their spirits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL YIN, GRIEF COUNSELOR: When the words came out that were basically considering hijacking as the most possible scenario, there was, among many of the families almost euphoria because that means they could still be alive. And I heard cheers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With few facts to go on in the investigation, many theories are filling the void including, of course, conspiracy theories.

Gary Marcus is a professor of psychology at NYU and has written about fascination with such theories. Welcome.

GARY MARCUS, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, NYU: Thanks very much.

COSTELLO: Thank you for being here.

I understand why the families want a hijacking. I do. Because I can't say that I would be thinking any differently. But why do we in general like to come up with scenarios that defy all logic?

MARCUS: Well I don't think anybody wants a theory that defies all logic. But I think everybody wants to be the one person who's come up with the right theory. We feel good about ourselves if we thought about something that nobody has thought of. And then once we go down a particular avenue so we think people have landed on a particular island. We look at everything we can about that island we find information to back up our theory.

So I think part of it comes from just vanity. We want to find the right theory. And part of it comes from how our brain works that makes us feel good if we find more evidence to support our own theories.

COSTELLO: But some of these theories are just silly. I mean a new Bermuda Triangle idea or aliens are to blame. These theories just -- I don't know they seem kind of disrespectful. But -- but is that the part of us that needs an explanation no matter what? Does it --

MARCUS: Well human beings certainly have a really hard time when there's not an explanation. And we'll try to invent explanations when there aren't any. So people will look at strings of lottery numbers and try to come up with theories even though there isn't really a theory it really is random. So we have an abhorrence for anything that's random we really do want to find explanations for things. That's a strong desire.

We differ, different human beings, in our paranoia, in our sophistication in thinking about scientific reasoning and thinking about small possibilities. But we all really want an explanation.

COSTELLO: You know, some of the theories are even said in a joking manner. And I suppose that's because it's too painful to think about what really might have happened to that plane. And it's -- and you have to laugh about it because it's so painful to think of what might have happened really.

MARCUS: Well joking is certainly a natural defense mechanism. I mean people I guess have their sense of when that might be in good taste or not. But it's a natural defense mechanism to deal with what's obviously not a good such situation.

COSTELLO: And even when we know what happened to the plane or we can best guess what happened to the plane, is it likely that some of those conspiracy theories will live on?

MARCUS: Probably. I mean, unless there's absolute data that will rule them out. If somebody believes in a particular theory, they're going to cling to that theory, they will try to defend it against counter evidence and they may linger for a long time. This happens to scientists too. There's an old saying that the way that science changes is sometimes the doubters die off. So it can take a long time to change somebody's mind about something.

COSTELLO: Gary Marcus thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

MARCUS: Thank you very much for having me.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the search area for that missing plane, now nearly the size of the entire United States. Will they ever find that plane? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Malaysia now reaching out for more help in the search for that missing plane. Officials are asking for deep ocean detection equipment. It's also requesting countries in the region to take another look at the radar data.

Rob McCallum helped lead the ocean search for Air France Flight 447. He knew all about deep detection equipment. Thanks for being with me. I appreciate it.

ROB MCCALLUM, OCEAN SEARCH SPECIALIST: Good morning.

COSTELLO: How many countries actually have such equipment?

MCCALLUM: You know not a lot. There is just a handful of units in the world that would be able to conduct a long and deep -- deep water search. There are more countries that have the ability to -- the heavy equipment to detect the pingers, the -- a little devices that are sending out "find me, find me" signal. But the range of those pingers is very, very short.

So searching for them is like looking in a needle in the haystack, literally. They are designed really to help searches locate the black box from within the wreckage. But obviously the key to that is knowing where the wreckage is.

COSTELLO: OK so I'll ask you a question but deep detection equipment, can you describe it? What is it?

MCCALLUM: Well it's essentially using sonar devices to use acoustic signals to gather beta metric, data of the sea floor and look for irregularities in that data which provide images of -- of whatever it is you're looking for.

You know sometimes we are looking for ships, aircrafts, helicopters, submarines and whatever it might be. So you're using in lay terms, it is like using sound together, photographs of the sea floor and whatever is lying on the floor.

COSTELLO: OK so deep detection equipment managed to find Air France Flight 447 off the coast of Brazil in deep waters. What did it detect that led you to that place?

MCCALLUM: Well, the key to the Air France search and almost every search for aircraft in the sea is that you need to know where to start. And usually, that's triggered by finding a piece of floating debris. Once you have that, you can then work out a very narrow search box and an area to search. And then you deploy the sonar assets into the water and start doing a fine scale analysis of the sea floor.

But the trick is as always is to have a good starting point. With Air France, it was unfortunately bodies and floating debris. We are very lucky to have a large crew right at the start, which was the entire tail of the aircraft, which of course was relatively easy to spot.

COSTELLO: But the water was still pretty deep it was 12,000 feet deep or something like that, right?

MCCALLUM: That's right. That's the average depth of the world's ocean, around 12,000 feet. So these are not extreme depths in our business. I mean they sound very deep again to lay people but in our industry, we are regularly working down to 20,000 feet or 6,000 meters.

COOPER: I know you mentioned it but you kind of have to know where to look even with this high-tech equipment. The search area is now the size of the United States for this missing plane.

MCCALLUM: That's right. I mean it is a vast, vast area. And you know, I said the other day that aircraft is searching at somewhere between 150 and 200 knots. Ships are searching at a tenth of that speed, around 15-20 knots. Sonar equipment is searching at a tenth of that speed, maybe one and a half to two to two knots.

So the more you can spot from the air, the greater area you can recover from the air, then you can relieve the ships of that responsibility. The more you do by ship, the easier it is for the sonar equipment later on.

COSTELLO: Do you think we will find this plane?

MCCALLUM: Yes, I do. It is a large piece of material. It won't have vanished. We are just not yet looking in the right place. If it is on land, then, somewhere, somebody will have heard or seen something or we will find something. If it is in the sea, it will take longer.

Let's not forget that even though we have narrowed the area down to an area the size of the United States, which is actually smaller than the area we were talking about last week, it is still a vast area of ocean.

COSTELLO: It is. Rob McCallum, thanks so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

MCCALLUM: thank you.

COSTELLO: The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)