Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New Search Area 1,500 Miles from Australia; The Possibility Flight 370 is Never Found; Data Deleted from Pilot's Simulator; Should Cockpit Doors Remain Locked?

Aired March 19, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: No satellite imagery showing an explosion or a crash landing on the ground. No satellite imagery showing any indication that this plane landed at a military airfield or anywhere in that region and a real view behind the scenes, at least with the U.S. military, that it could not have gotten through coastal radars, air traffic control radars and military radars spread across that Asian northern arc.

So it leads them to believe the Indian Ocean is the most likely place. The search goes on everywhere but at the moment, they still believe as they have for many days it perhaps sadly went into the water.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Barbara Starr, Tom Foreman, many thanks to both of you.

You know they said there is hope and there is hope but there is still that very real possibility that we may never find Flight 370. It could be just like Amelia Earhart's plane. It was never found.

Rick Gillespie is the executive director of the International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery. He also wrote a book about the Earhart disappearance. Good morning, sir.

RICK GILLESPIE, THE INTERNATIONAL GROUP FOR HISTORIC AIRCRAFT RECOVERY: Good morning.

COSTELLO: It seems kind of farfetched to compare the two flights. I mean Earhart's plane went down in the 30s. We have much, much better technology. Are there really parallels?

GILLESPIE: Well, are there parallels. You know someone once said that history doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes. And nothing vanishes without a trace. We have been working on the Earhart mystery for 25 years and we found many traces, many clues. And the parallels to this loss, the Flight 370, loss just keep coming.

You have a flight that was originally thought to have gone down at sea and then a search for wreckage didn't come up with anything and now there are electronic communications from the plane that came in after the time of loss, which made people think that maybe it continued flying and was on land. And even now, the -- the search area has shifted south.

In 1937, that is exactly what was going on with Earhart. She had reported -- she reported that she was on a line of position that might have gone northwest and might have gone southeast. At first, they thought it was northeast and then they shifted to southeast. In the Earhart case it does now look like she did go southeast and ended up on land. But we haven't concluded our investigation of that. We hope to do that later this year. But the parallels are just incredible.

(CROSSTALK)

COSTELLO: Another parallel might be the fascination with a missing plane because the fascination with Amelia Earhart's plane has never left us.

GILLESPIE: Has never left us. That's absolutely right. And remember, the people in 1937 did not believe they were living in a primitive age of communication. They thought they were living, and they were, living in an age where there were new developments. They knew much more than they used to be able to know. Airplanes had radios and there were capabilities of great searches. The aircraft carrier, Lexington was dispatched with dozens of airplanes that were searching the ocean.

So just like back then, today, we feel this shouldn't happen. We have all this technology. But this just goes to show that airplanes can disappear.

COSTELLO: Yes.

GILLESPIE: But it will be found. I'm sure it will.

COSTELLO: I was just going to ask you that Malaysian authorities say though it'll take weeks, months, maybe even years or never. Why is it so impossible for some of us to believe that this plane could be lost forever?

GILLESPIE: Well that is difficult to believe. Because as I said nothing vanishes without a trace, things turn up. It may take years. If it did go down at sea, eventually, something will wash up on a beach somewhere as seems to have happened with the Earhart case. And then, aviation archaeologists like us in the future may be faced with evaluating a piece of debris that we suspect is from the missing airplane. And they will conduct all kinds of scientific tests as we are doing right on the artifacts we found. It doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes.

COSTELLO: Rick Gillespie, thanks so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

GILLESPIE: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the latest on Malaysian Airlines Flight 370. The search narrows but the mystery deepens. Who changed course in the flight's on board computer and why? FBI veteran Tom Fuentes joins us with the latest on the investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: This just in to CNN. Moments ago the Attorney General, Eric Holder, weighed in on the search for Malaysia Airline Flight 370 and the U.S. role in that investigation. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I have not had direct contact with my counterpart in Malaysia. But there has been contact between the various investigative agencies, the FBI, here and the relevant agencies in Malaysia. And that conversation, all those conversations are ongoing.

Well I think that we are still in the process of trying to determine what happened there and we are helping in any way that we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's justice reporter, Evan Perez, was at that -- at that news conference by Attorney General Holder. And he also has some breaking news for us on the FBI's involvement and having to comb through that deleted data from the pilot flight simulator. Now Captain Shah had that homemade flight simulator at his home. It was confiscated. Investigators have pored through it and they found that it had missing data. What can you tell us -- Evan?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we can -- we can tell you that the Malaysian authorities have turned over some of this information to the FBI and to other investigators from other countries that are on the ground. And now we know that the FBI is also now going to take its own look at the hard drive from the pilot that was -- that was taken from his home. They are trying to figure out whether or not there is any indication of any pre-planning for -- for this route, for this diversion from the route that we now know Flight 370 took.

And so they are trying to figure out if there is anything that was perhaps premeditated on this. Obviously, the focus is still on what happened in the cockpit. But they don't know what, what if anything, this indicates. We know that -- that the -- that they have done other searches and they have found nothing that indicates any -- any planning for a crime.

So they are still very puzzled. And so now they are going to take another look at what they can find.

COSTELLO: Do we know when that data was removed?

PEREZ: We don't know exactly when it was removed and we don't know what the purpose of that -- of the removal was. These files obviously this software is very large and it takes up a lot of room on a hard drive. So it could well be, according to investigators, it could well be that the pilot removed this to -- in order to save room on his hard drive.

So they are not making any conclusions there yet. But it is an interesting fact. And so they are trying to figure out if they can retrieve that data and also to see if there is anything more they can learn.

COSTELLO: How big a role is the U.S. FBI playing in this?

PEREZ: Well, you know, there is a limited role, because, obviously, this is a Malaysian investigation. And they are only serving as -- in a consulting role. Whenever the Malaysians ask for any help, the FBI can provide it. But they haven't invited forensics teams and so on to come in and help.

So until the plane is found, until the wreckage perhaps is found, if that, indeed, is what happened to the plane, then perhaps you might see a bigger role for U.S. and other investigators. Keep in mind there are other countries involved, France and Britain as well so right now they are just trying to figure out if there is any additional help they can lend at this point.

COSTELLO: All right Evan Perez thanks so much.

Tom Fuentes is a CNN law enforcement analyst and former assistant director of the FBI. Good morning Tom.

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good morning Carol.

COSTELLO: OK so let's get into this flight simulator and its missing data. What exactly are authorities looking for?

FUENTES: Well what they would do is something the forensic cyber investigators refer to as mirroring the hard drive, in other words make an exact duplicate of the entire hard drive which would copy the operating system, the software that's being used and every single file on the computer.

Then, what they look at is when you delete the file on your computer, you don't actually delete the files, you delete the first letter so it appears that amount of space is now available to save another file. And if you save enough other files, it will write over that original data.

But what the forensic investigators will do is bring up every file that has not been written over yet and they will be able to see what that file was. And you can get that software to use at home. I use an application at home in case I accidentally delete a file and want to look it up again three weeks later I can bring up that that program and it will look at every deleted files that's still on the hard drive that has not been written over.

So that's the process now. The hope is that looking at a particular file where he wanted to maybe practice flying to some exotic place, may indicate that he had some intent to go somewhere and wanted to practice flying there. But we have to keep in mind, Malaysian Airlines flies to every major city in China, every major city in Australia, every major city in the Asian Pacific, Indian Ocean region.

And so he may have been -- that could reveal that he maybe wants to switch routes and he is going to fly next month to Australia, wants to practice that, the month after to India, or somewhere else, he wants to practice that. So just finding other destinations may indicate that he had intent to go there. But he could put programs in there to fly to the North Pole, I mean he could try that just for the fun of it.

COSTELLO: Right.

FUENTES: And having it on there and deleting it may just say, well you know that was fun and now we'll go on to something else. It may or may not like everything else in this case just because he did that, it doesn't necessarily mean he had a bad intent, he wasn't just playing around for the fun of it you know for recreational purposes.

But they do want to see what exactly did he practice or where exactly did he practice going to on that simulator.

COSTELLO: Right.

FUENTES: It may or may not help.

COSTELLO: Tom stay right there because I want to bring in Joseph Caruso. He is the founder and CEO of Global Digital Forensics which specializes in computer forensics and data recovery. Welcome, sir.

JOSEPH CARUSO, FOUNDER AND CEO, GLOBAL DIGITAL FORENSICS: Thank you.

COSTELLO: How difficult is it to retrieve such information?

CARUSO: Well, it just depends on the state of the system. You know Tom makes a good point. If the data is overwritten, it could be very difficult to recover, if impossible. But there is a lot of software and a lot of tools and techniques where you can bring data back, even if a file is partially overwritten. Investigators may be able to bring back a lot of that data.

COSTELLO: And Tom, I want to ask you about this because everything seems to be pointing in the direction of a criminal investigation now. For example, earlier today, we heard that the on board computers were reprogrammed 12 minutes before the co-pilot last talked to air traffic controllers when he said, all right, good night.

We know the transponder was shut off. We know from the Thai Air Force that that plane made a sharp turn west. We have heard from people on this remote island that a plane was flying very low over the island. It was quite unusual. And that's in that general vicinity of, you know, if the plane turned west. So all of that kind of points to a criminal investigation, right?

FUENTES: Carol, the criminal investigations began day one. So I mean all that means is that in the media, we go from this idea to that idea. Maybe it is criminal. Maybe it is mechanical. But the law enforcement side of this has been intensive on every member of that crew, including the pilots, every passenger. That's been on going.

COSTELLO: I guess I mean is it becoming more clear -- is it becoming more clear that this is a criminal investigation? With all of these clues. FUENTES: No, I don't think anything is more clear. What you're saying is today's information, this morning's information. The history of this has been that tomorrow morning we will have something else that makes it more clear and the next day will contradict it. And that will be more clear. I don't think anything is really totally clear.

It may be more clear -- that's a relative term. But from the investigative standpoint, the criminal investigators do not form all these different theories, because they might accidentally steer the investigation to prove themselves right. Everything is, as I said, on the table, as a possibility until there really is something that clarifies it, that this is what it had to be.

As late as yesterday evening, when I was here, you had people saying, it could still be mechanical. It could still be a fire. It could still be something else. So that's my point. What is clear is not clear to me.

COSTELLO: Got you.

OK, Joseph, another question for you. Malaysian authorities said this morning that they are taking a closer look at the pilot and co-pilot. Although I'm sure they've been doing that all along. They don't want to say anyone is guilty. They don't want to say that at all. They are just taking a look.

So they get this flight simulator and they're prying data from it. Would that data tell us anything about the psychology of this captain, this pilot?

CARUSO: It certainly could, you know. I think aside from the flight simulator, his home computer and some of the other devices that he had could certainly lead into some insights of what his thought process was. What kind of communications he's done in the past, who he was talking to and what his state of mind was.

So I think aside from just the flight simulator data that they're going to look at. There are other computers and other devices within his home that they are going to look at as well. Probably check his e-mail and things like that to see what his state of mind was.

COSTELLO: Tom Fuentes, Joseph Caruso, thank you both for providing insight this morning. I appreciate it.

FUENTES: Thank you, Carol.

CARUSO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I'm back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: An intriguing idea this morning from a former NTSB chairman. Maybe it is not such a good idea to keep cockpit doors locked during a flight. John Magaw told me that locked door could actually make a dangerous situation hard to stop.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MAGAW, FORMER UNDERSECRETARY, TSA: That's one of the concerns we had after 911. Don't lock those doors so that you can't get in from the outside if something happens and it fell on deaf ears. I hope now that we will relook at that. There has to be more visibility, there has to be more transparency.

Look at how many times they have flown past the airport because they were both asleep. Again, this is going to raise terrible concerns. Watch what the airline and the pilots tell you. Listen to their explanation and it doesn't hold water. I think we have to put cameras both in the cockpit and the passengers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I am joined now by commercial pilot, Anthony Roman. Morning, sir.

ANTHONY ROMAN, COMMERCIAL PILOT: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Let's talk first about Mr. Magaw's first idea. He says when pilots are able to lock that cockpit door, no one else can get in. But let's say a dangerous situation is taking place inside that cockpit, that locked door is preventing help from coming in. So does he have a point?

ROMAN: He has a point and it's true. If the cockpit door is locked, it will prevent help from coming in. Carol I wear two hats. I am both a former corporate pilot and I also own a global investigation firm that specializes in risk management and high-level security. So let's come in from that point of view.

Where is the real risk? We look at precedent, simply precedent. Yes, pilots have fallen asleep -- both crew members. However, these aircraft are highly automated. They fundamentally fly themselves along the navigation waypoint route and can even land themselves at the host airport without any pilot interaction.

The risk of death to the passengers from pilots napping has not come to fruition. There has been no recorded event that passengers have been killed as a result of crews falling asleep.

COSTELLO: So what if the co-pilot turns on the pilot or vice-versa.

ROMAN: Well, there have been situations like that as well. And in those histories, in particular with FedEx, the crew prevailed. However, if we weigh the other risk that's known, thousands of people have been killed as a result of the cockpit being breached. If we put both on a scale, we have to go with the reinforced cockpit doors.

COSTELLO: But shouldn't someone on the outside, like in this particular case on this jetliner, it was a key pad and you punched in a code. Should someone outside of the cabin have the combination so that someone can get in? ROMAN: Well, we really have to examine and weigh the risk of the crew member becoming hostage and being threatened with their lives as a result of what we believe to be the greater risk, either a terror threat or a passenger who becomes mentally disturbed.

COSTELLO: And then the other idea that Mr. Magaw brought up was putting cameras in the cockpit so that the pilots could see what's happening in the rest of the plane. Good idea?

ROMAN: I think that's an excellent idea. I think that exists on some of the airlines now. I think that would be a wonderful recommendation for all airlines.

COSTELLO: In your mind, as you've been watching this mystery deepen and unfold, what do you think happened?

ROMAN: Well, I think it is clear now based on the data we have and the former deputy director of the FBI is absolutely correct. The data is changing daily. However, there seems to be a core group of data that has remained constant. The transponder was shut off. The ACARS maintenance reporting stream was shut off. The aircraft made a left- hand turn to the west, turning and overflying Malaysia along navigation waypoints that are well-known.

What that suggests to us is that there is human interference. In this case, nothing has come to the forefront concerning either pilot in terms of negative associations with terror groups, radical groups or any criminal groups. They both have a stable background in history. Of course, that needs to be investigated and investigated thoroughly.

However nothing leads us to believe that this was intended by the crew. We have to conclude, because of the co-pilot's reported history of poor cockpit security that it is the most likely scenario that someone breached the cockpit and held the crew hostage.

COSTELLO: Interesting. Anthony Roman, thank you so much for your insight. I do appreciate it.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@ THIS HOUR" with Berman and Michaela after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)