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Searching Under Water; Listening for Pings; Plane Land Intact on Water; Families Denied Recording; Fort Hood Shooting Victims Identified

Aired April 04, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you so much.

Great to be with all of you on this Friday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We begin the hour with this number for you, four. Four weeks after Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just vanished, the search turns in another direction, below the ocean surface. So crews, right now, are racing against the clock trying to find the plane's black boxes before those pingers on the devices go silent. Assuming, of course, that their batteries haven't already run out of juice.

Crews have, today, dropped off this U.S. pinger locater in the water. We've talked about this thoroughly, right? So this is this listening device. It's straining to pick up the faint, you hear it, the clicks, the probably now fading pings from the plane's flight data recorder and from the cockpit voice recorder. Those two boxes they're looking for. Scouring this 150-mile track of the Indian Ocean.

And if -- if they do get a ping, there is also an underwater robot. This is a blue fin. The American AUV, that's an autonomous underwater vehicle, on scene, standing by. And how this works is it uses sonar to check the sea bed for wreckage. But experts say all of this is really a shot in the dark without having that tangible evidence, that debris field to narrow the search.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGUS HOUSTON, CHIEF COORDINATOR, JOINT AGENCY COORDINATION CENTRE: I think there's still a great possibility of finding something on the surface. There's lots of -- lots of things in aircraft that float. I mean, in previous - previous searches, life - life jackets have appeared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As for what went on inside the cockpit of Flight 370, we have the transcript of that final communication. But what about the audio? What about the back and forth between the cockpit and the air traffic control? Well, Malaysian officials are refusing to allow the passengers' families to listen to that audio recording. Why? Because they say it's still part of the ongoing investigation.

And so here you have these families, four weeks out, struggling to get information. The search operation has used what little information it has to figure out and hone in on this current search area. What teams came up with is really a mix of science and speculation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOUSTON: We are moving into an area we've never been before. And may I say, I think this ground-breaking analytical work has been simply extraordinary. And it gives us, I think, some - some hope that we will eventually find the aircraft.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: For more let's go to Paula Newton. She is in Perth. 2:00 in the morning, Paula, where you are here. And we hear him talking about ground-breaking analytical research here and honing in on this search zone. How exactly did they do that?

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They, once again, went back to those pings from the Inmarsat satellites. They had made this calculation. Remember, Brooke, so many days we were looking at a northern arc and a southern arc. They are now at that bottom end of the southern arc, 150 miles. You've got the ocean spray with its tow pinger locator on one end. You're got the HMS Echo, a British ship, on the other end. They will converge along this line.

What's important is what you said before, a shot in the dark. I mean the U.S. Navy commander leading this right now told me it was a shot in the dark. But at this point they feel, Brooke, like the equipment is out there. They will continually look at the information, see if they can refine it a little bit more.

But right now what they have is a guess. Not even they would call it an educated guess as to where that plane may have come down. Good news, the weather is good. The equipment, they have full confidence that at those depths, with that kind of topography on the ocean floor, that they will have a very good chance of hearing it if it is pinging.

BALDWIN: If it's pinging, a couple of days to go, more or less. There isn't total precision in the battery life. But just - I mean to underscore the point, Paula, this is a painstakingly slow process.

NEWTON: Well, as the commander explained to me, it's like a slow walk on the ocean floor. That's how slow his instrument is going. They're working at it 24/7. They're going to continue this part of this search for 10-12 days. We asked if they needed more equipment. They said no. and that's probably frankly, Brooke, because, as you say, it's a shot in the dark now. We don't need more equipment to do this until - if and until they refine that search site. And I have to say, Brooke, just a reminder, planes just finished coming in for the night. They're still out there every day in daylight trying to spot that piece of debris on the surface.

BALDWIN: Paula Newton, thank you so much, in Perth for us this morning your time.

And let's focus, though, on these all-important underwater pings. The precious ping sound happened about once every second. But, again, back to the battery. The battery-powered ping may soon go silent. So let's bring in ocean search specialist Mike Williamson.

So, Mike, welcome to the show. Nice to have you on.

MIKE WILLIAMSON, OCEAN SEARCH SPECIALIST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: So here we are. We're talking about this approximately 150- mile track to use this pinger locater, this TPL. They're listening for the click, click, too ultimately locate those black boxes. But my question to you out of the gate sir is, is covering that kind of search zone doable in more or less the two days they have before this battery potentially dies?

WILLIAMSON: Well, there's a problem here in that the acoustic pingers are not really intended to identify where the aircraft wreckage is on the sea floor. They're intended to guide a remotely operated vehicle to the actual flight recorders in the wreckage field from an autonomous vehicle.

So this is a real stretch to use it as a search tool. There are a range of these acoustic pingers is only about 3,000 meters and we're in water depths that are probably over 4,000 meters deep. So these deeply towed hydrophones that are listening for these pings, have to be very close to the bottom to even hear them. If they were at the surface, they could go right over it and not even hear the signals. So this is a tough, tough problem.

BALDWIN: Mike, you call it a stretch. I know families are pressuring, you know, the airlines and the government. But, I mean, might we go with desperation as another word?

WILLIAMSON: Well, there's -- there's always a hope. But the probabilities are pretty daunting.

BALDWIN: OK. You mentioned the possibility that this could go over the wreckage. Because, you know, I was really re-reading about what happened a couple of years ago with Air France 447 and when that went down. We know that they found the debris - some of the debris some six days after that crash, but it took them two years, right, to actually find the wreckage. From what I understand, Mike, and correct me if I'm wrong, I mean initially they had actually gone over the plane wreckage and just hadn't found it because of the topography on the bottom of the ocean and then two years later they finally found it.

WILLIAMSON: Yes, that's right. The pinger locaters may not have received it because there might have been damage to the recorders when they -- on impact. But that being said, the actual wreckage was found something like six miles from the last radar ping. So they had a pretty good idea of the area to look. But nobody heard anything from the pingers, and it could have been, again, because the water was very deep.

BALDWIN: Could you also have false alerts triggered by whatever else might lie beneath, whether it's, you know, silt, and we talked a lot about ocean ooze or whales or rough weather that could lead a search crew on what they think could be it and it turns out it's not at all?

WILLIAMSON: Well, these acoustic pingers transmit on a frequency of an anomaly 37 kilohertz, which is a fairly quite spectrum in the ocean. But there's always noise from bubbles, waves, marine life that could cause the overall noise level to rise and make it very difficult to hear these discreet pings. If on the bottom the actual recorders are buried under silt, then that's going to impede the range that they would normally have. So there are a lot of factors to be involved here.

BALDWIN: At least the good news, we knew with Air France, you know, that pinger was long since gone two years after that crash, but it was still intact. They were able to ultimately get the answers. They were able to ultimately figure out what happened on that plane. So this could take years, but hopefully those families do get those answers in their lifetimes.

Mike Williamson, thank you so much for joining me here.

Coming up next, the families -- the families being denied access of those audio recordings from the cockpit to air traffic control, we're asking why. Especially if the transcript has been made public, what could be revealed on that audio? We'll look at that.

Also ahead, we will take you back live inside that flight simulator to see whether a plane could crash land intact on the water.

And investigators searching the home of the soldier who killed three people at Fort Hood. Hear what they have found as they are searching desperately to figure out why. The motive here. This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And right now you have not just one, but these two high-tech devices. They're searching underwater, scouring this 150-mile track of the Indian Ocean floor, hunting for Flight 370. You hear the click, click, click, right, so that is what this ping being emitted from those black boxes sort of sounds like. This TPL, this towed pinger locator 25, listening for those clicks from the flight data recorder and the voice recorders.

And this here, this is the other piece of equipment we want to highlight for you. This is the blue fin 21. This is an underwater robot that can scour the ocean floor for wreckage. But here's what you should know. Officials have no idea if the plane is at all in the vicinity of these devices. Sort of, though, under the gun because the battery life, at any moment, could go away from those black boxes.

Let's go to our flight simulator to CNN's Martin Savidge and pilot Mitchell Casado.

And, Martin, you know, this underwater search has a lot of people asking whether crews could even find the plane in tact instead of just in all kinds of pieces of wreckage. Can you just give us some insight there?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Yes, Mitchell and I have sort of run this through the simulator in a number of different ways, but we did want to show you that there is a way that it's possible the aircraft did not necessarily nose-dive when it ran out of fuel and slam into the ocean from a high altitude.

So what Mitchell's done is he's shut the engines off to simulate running out of fuel because, of course, that's the scenario believed to have happened with 370. That eventually after flying for about seven hours or so, they ran out of fuel. And here's what happens. You can see - well, Mitchell, show us right there on the dash, so to speak.

MITCHELL CASADO, PILOT TRAINER, 777 COCKPIT SIMULATOR: Yes. All these displays here, all these numbers winding down, that what indicates the engines are winding down.

SAVIDGE: Yes, so we have two engines. Both of them are out. Which means we are now one very big, very high-tech glider. And that's the first thing we wanted to show you is the stability of the aircraft. Nobody is doing anything. Mitchell's not flying. The automatic pilot's not engaged. The engines are not producing anything. So, naturally, gravity's taking over.

But here's something we can show you specifically only with a simulator. And Mitchell can bring up an external view.

OK, so that is us out the window. Sort of the eagle-eye view of what this aircraft would look like. You can see the engines. Their fans are spooling down, right?

CASADO: Yes.

SAVIDGE: You can see also though that the attitude of the aircraft, when compared to the horizon, is extremely stable. The 777 was designed that way, right?

CASADO: (INAUDIBLE) designed to fly -- to glide, rather, to the ground in a stable attitude.

SAVIDGE: So even with no one at the controls or if both pilots are passed out in some way, the aircraft is still flying stable. But it's descending and it's descending fairly quickly.

CASADO: It is. It's almost 2,000 feet per minute. Which, if you left it like that, it would hit the ocean at a very violent rate.

SAVIDGE: Yes. And that's the problem with this, is that you get a good decent, but if you ran into an ocean that had a heavy swell state or anything like that, you can see how either one of the engine cowlings (ph) or a wingtip could snag. And then you get an aircraft that tumbles. But if it came down fairly stable, it's not a wild, high dive from great altitude, instead it's more like a roll into the ocean, right?

CASADO: Absolutely. So think back to the Hudson River landing. Very controlled decent. And he landed that airplane intact. It can be done.

SAVIDGE: Yes, assuming, of course, there's someone flying at that point. If not, it's still going to crash in a way that it's going to end up with some debris, but maybe not a huge debris field, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Right, and that's the thing we keep talking about (INAUDIBLE) debris field and finding this evidence, whether it's more intact or not at all, you know, they will be able to deduce, based upon forensic investigations, exactly how it hit the water. But they have to find some of this debris.

Gentlemen, thank you so much, as always, from that flight simulator.

Here's the other piece of the story that's really percolating today. Malaysian officials are refusing to allow passengers' families now to listen to the recording of radio communications between Flight 370's cockpit and air traffic control. They say, listen, you can't do it right now. The investigation is ongoing.

But let's get a little context to this. We want to bring in our retired airline pilot. He's been involved in a number of accident investigations here, Captain John Ransom.

Nice to see you again, sir.

JOHN RANSOM, RETIRED AIRLINES PILOT: Hi, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me just begin with - just these cockpit recordings itself. To be clear, there are two ways you can hear what happened on the cockpit. One is presumably buried somewhere in the ocean floor on that cockpit voice recorder.

RANSOM: Right.

BALDWIN: Two, it would be between air traffic control and the cockpit. What would they hear on that?

RANSOM: Well, in addition to things you assume they can hear because of the transcript of everything that was said, there's a lot you can pick up. For example, in some aircraft, when the pilot transmits, it includes a side tone. It's a 400-cycle side tone. And it can - it can tell you whether or not the engines are putting out -- or the generators are putting out the right amount of energy. If they do an analysis and they see that the 400-hertz tone is down to 390, they can tell that the electrical system was being loaded up for some reason. So that's one thing.

BALDWIN: OK.

RANSOM: Another thing is, each of the pilots has three microphones that they can use. One is the boom mic, which presumably they use most of the time, certainly during the takeoffs, landings, climbs, descents. A hand mic, which is actually a higher fidelity mic that they might use when they don't' have the boom mic on. And the third one is the mic that's in the oxygen mask. So by doing analysis you can -- BALDWIN: There's even a microphone in the oxygen mask in case of an emergency?

RANSOM: Correct.

BALDWIN: Wow. OK.

RANSOM: So - and that's automatic so that if somebody takes their mask out of the mask stowage box, it automatically deactivates the boom mic. So if they tried to use the boom mic, it won't work. So they have to use the hand mic, even if they have the boom mic on.

BALDWIN: Could hear mics muffled. Could hear ambient noise. Could hear a struggle. Could hear, you know, words expressing fire, emergency, all kinds of things.

RANSOM: You could. But the other thing you could also hear is if one of the crew members got out of his seat to go to the back. Most airlines now at least require them to take the mask out or have the mask nearby.

BALDWIN: Yes.

RANSOM: If they remove it from the box, now they're changing to a different microphone and you can tell that from the fidelity of the microphone.

BALDWIN: So those are a few of the different things one could hear on these recordings. The issue today that's pertinent is the fact that the families want to hear this and the investigators are saying, no, this is an ongoing investigation. And that can be, you know, understandable. But at the end of the day, and maybe ultimately they will allow the families to hear this, you were involved with that massive plane accident that crashed into the Potomac River in Washington, D.C., in the 80s.

RANSOM: Right.

BALDWIN: And you were part of the process in which families were allowed to listen. Why?

RANSOM: Well, the -- after the accident and we got the recorders out about a week later, it took a while to transcribe them. It's 32 minutes worth of tape. That takes a long time to transcribe. But when it was all over, the families of the crew members specifically were very interested in hearing them.

BALDWIN: Why?

RANSOM: So they - I hate to use the term to bring closure, but maybe it's just curiosity. They wanted to hear their family members' voices again.

BALDWIN: Their final - final words.

RANSOM: Right. So working through the investigator in charge, Rudy Capucin (ph) was his name, a very nice man, he was able to facilitate it so that the family came in, we gave them a copy of the transcript. They could hear the recording. It was kind of difficult to hear without the transcript. But I think it was very - it was comforting in a way to them to be able to hear it.

BALDWIN: Helping bring some peace to such a horrendous tragedy.

RANSOM: Correct.

BALDWIN: Captain John Ransom, thank you so much, as always, for your expertise here.

RANSOM: Certainly.

BALDWIN: Coming up, as the search goes deep underwater, our Rosa Flores has a closer look at the high-tech tools these investigators are using to take them miles and miles below the ocean's surface and could help find the wreckage.

Also next, we will take you live to Texas, to Fort Hood, where CNN is learning much more about what this shooter bought at this gun store just in Killeen, Texas. It's called Guns Galore. And it wasn't just a firearm. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Well, investigators in Fort Hood are still searching for the answer to why. Why did this Army specialist open fire on his fellow soldiers? Two days now after that deadly shooting on post, key questions remain about the gunman here, 34-year-old Ivan Lopez. Army officials confirm Lopez killed three people and wounded some 16 others. The three killed are Illinois native, Sergeant Timothy Owens. Family members tell CNN the 37-year-old was a father of two. Also 38- year-old Sergeant Carlos Alberto Rodriguez. He was, like the shooter, from Puerto Rico, where his aunt said he wanted to retire. And Florida native, Sergeant First Class Stanley Ferguson, seen here in this FaceBook photo posted by his fiance Kristen Haley. She is also a soldier. In fact, Haley talked to our Tampa affiliate, WTSP, and said that Ferguson died while trying to hold shut this door that Lopez was trying to push open. On the other side of that door, a room full of military personnel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN HALEY, SGT. FERGUSON'S FIANCE (voice-over): He held that door shut because there's no locks. Those doors are like - it seems like they would be bullet-proof, but apparently not. And if he was not being the one against that door holding it, that shooter would have been able to get through and shoot everyone else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN's justice correspondent Pamela Brown is live there just outside that entrance way on to the post there at Fort Hood.

And, Pamela, I know officials searched the shooter's home. What did they find?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke. I spoke to a law enforcement source earlier today and learned that they didn't find any physical evidence such as a suicide note that would indicate a motive. Now, we know from sources that the FBI and Army investigators have been searching Lopez's computer, his cell phone, also interviewing witnesses trying to figure out what triggered the shooting on Wednesday. And they're looking at several possibilities. One is whether he was angry over recent -- recently canceled leave. Also, we heard from General Milley, the general of Fort Hood yesterday, talking about a verbal altercation between Lopez and another soldier right before the shooting happened.

And also, Brooke, General Milley talked about his long history of mental instability being a fundamental underlying cause. We learned that he suffered from depression, from anxiety, from a sleep disorder and is taking -- was taking several medications, being treated for those issues. And, of course, they're looking at the medications, whether that could have been a factor. But again, there was nothing from the search turned up anything significant that would indicate a motive. So that's still a big question mark.

BALDWIN: OK, so, Pamela, you have more on the shooter and his home and what was and wasn't found. The other issue here is that gun shop. I passed it by when I was leaving Killeen yesterday, Guns Galore, the same store where Major Nadal Hasan bought his weapon some years ago. And you uncovered some new information about purchases Lopez made there. What did you find out?

BROWN: That's right. So according to a law enforcement source, Lopez purchased that .45 caliber that he used in the shooting on March 1st of this year. And when he purchased that gun, he also bought a lot of ammo, according to a source. And not only that, but he went back to that store to purchase more ammo throughout the month of March. So interesting to note there.

And also, Brooke, when you think about the gun he was using, that .45 caliber Smith & Wesson gun, it holds 10 rounds plus one. So, if you think about all the injuries and the three people killed and then also himself, he must have had a lot of ammo with him.

BALDWIN: Pamela Brown, frightening thoughts for us, at Fort Hood in Texas. Thank you so much for your sourcing, your reporting there.

Coming up next, we will take you under water to show you how crews are looking for the wreckage of Flight 370. Find out how they could actually miss it. And what these robots can do.

Also ahead, a month in, we are looking at the timeline, the twists, the turns on this 777's final hours.

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