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Mystery of Flight 370; New Leads on Pings; Hank Aaron's Legacy

Aired April 06, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, top of the hour. I'm Don Lemon. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

It's not much for searchers to go on but they're the first real clues after many, many days of nothing. Off Western Australia a British Navy ship steamed for half a day to reach the area where a Chinese heard electronic pulses that might have come from the sea floor. The ship has some high tech-detecting gear onboard and it has been site for a few hours now. Search coordinators describe what they're looking for as acoustic events. But pilots call them pings. Ok so electronic signals shooting out of the sunken flight data recorders. We're going to talk much, much more about that with an audio expert coming up.

But Chinese searchers say they picked up pings twice over two days. Also today investigators are trying to figure out why the plane would fly this route skirting the coast of Indonesia before heading for the open ocean. That flight plan was confirmed today by Malaysian officials. And if you're counting days, like a lot of people are today marks the 31st day since Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 just simply vanished.

Live right now to the place where the flight originated, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and our Jim Clancy. Jim, I remember when this mystery was just a few hours old. You were there at Kuala Lumpur Airport. Who would have predicted that we'd still have no answers 31 days into this? So tell us how that place and the Malaysian people have handled this major international event over the past month?

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well you know, I don't think anybody would have. Certainly I wouldn't have. We arrived here on the 8th of March. It's now the 7th of April. I really thought this would be resumed if not in a matter of hours, in a matter of days. Our evidence told us that the plane was last seen in the middle of the South China Sea. It was only three, four days later that CNN, through sources here, determined that, in fact, that plane had made an abrupt reversal in course, flown through the Malacca Strait and was on its way to the Indian Ocean some 90 minutes after takeoff. It opened up a whole new world of questions.

And we've seen it. You've seen it, Don. The speculations that read like movie scripts about what happened to this plane. Now we learn that there is further evidence that it tried to evade detection, evade some kind of intervention. And we find ourselves searching half a world away. It looks like it plotted a course for Antarctica. But you ask yourself. What kind of plot is that -- Don?

LEMON: Yes. Hey, Jim, you know, this news that we heard last night from Angus Houston and also that we're hearing from other officials, those possible clues caused any visual optimism in Kuala Lumpur?

CLANCY: Yes. I think there was. It raised some optimism. It raised hopes. The people have been through it so many times before, Don. I mean, one time after another. I can remember searching the South China Sea, the oil slicks, the debris. The plane wasn't even there. And you know, we've been through this so many times.

I think everyone -- one of the Chinese families said, yes, we're watching it closely. But we've got to have patience. And that's what we all need right now. Patience just like we had on day one. Back to you.

LEMON: All right, Jim Clancy, thank you in Kuala Lumpur. I want to bring in now our panel of experts this hour. CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo is with us; CNN aviation correspondent Richard Quest back with us again today; CNN aviation analyst Les Abend is here back with us as well working until the midnight hour, well past the midnight hour last night; and Paul Ginsberg is with us here. And I'm very excited to have him he is a forensic audio expert in the business of analyzing black box recordings.

So Paul, thank you. I want to start with you. It is so fascinating when I -- when I heard from you and then I believe we've been speaking a little bit before. Are you skeptical about these pulse signals because they weren't continuous like they should be?

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: Exactly. If there's something transmitting, you expect it to be continuous ss long as you don't go out of range of reception. Now, I will tell you that 37.5 kilohertz is above our hearing range. It's almost like super hearing frequency rather than a radio frequency. In fact, I would -- I would guess that dogs or mammals, you know, may even be able to hear these sounds. Like dolphins.

LEMON: Right. So but you have a very simple explanation as to what -- and we have some visuals to show of that -- you have very simple explanation as to how we figure this out, if it's actually pings from the black box. And you said number one is frequency.

GINSBERG: Yes. We're looking for 37.5 kilohertz.

LEMON: Ok.

GINSBERG: On the screen you see two different wave forms. One is of a constant frequency. And the other one is what we call a chirp. Where you see on the left side and the right side, they're different frequencies. They're varying, different amounts.

So if this pinger was programmed to be a chirp, you would recognize that and it would be differentiated from anything else that was not with that particular frequency, duration, repetition rate, lots of different ways to describe it. LEMON: Ok we'll have -- we're going to have some sound of that in just a little bit. So it's either a pure tone or a chirp. And you said the duration of a tone burst.

GINSBERG: Yes. The manufacturer sets how long it transmits in each cycle where a cycle is apparently one second. But it could, perhaps, transmit for a tenth of a second or a two tenths of a second so on. That is easily measurable by instruments at a receiving end and you can compare all of the different characteristics to what the manufacturer says is what is --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: So you have to know exactly what type of -- who manufactured the black box on that plane.

GINSBERG: Exactly.

LEMON: And you would know.

But so -- so the folks who are out on the water, right, who are using these instruments, these hydrophones, should they -- can they record what they have found and then compare it to the type of instrument on the plane?

GINSBERG: Absolutely. In fact, they can record not using tape recorders, but digital recorders. I have a number of sets of software packages that would allow me to do that were I on the scene.

LEMON: Ok repetition rate of received pulses.

GINSBERG: Right. That's the -- that's the one second repetition of the programmed pulse train.

LEMON: Ok what do you mean by the shape of the pulses?

GINSBERG: Well, the -- the pulse may be constant throughout its cycle or it may vary. It may increase. It may decrease. And all of this would be identifiable and again, something that you could compare.

LEMON: What are we looking at there? Is that the shape of the pulses?

GINSBERG: Ok. That's an example that I put together. It's not a real pinger. But it's to show you that we have one second intervals and for each second, I have two-tenths of a second pulse.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: Within the one second. I don't know whether they have the audio wave sound that I produced.

LEMON: We'll have it for you a little bit later on this hour -- yes.

GINSBERG: Ok. Finally, the amplitude -- that is the strength.

LEMON: Amplitude of received pulses.

GINSBERG: Right. The strength of the received pulses is very important because, especially when you're trying to plot this versus position to determine where this device is. So you can -- you can plot so and so received signal strength over here.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: And when the ship moves it's a little louder, a little stronger and then it's getting weaker again. And if you come back and make a track, you can pretty much do a contour of signal strength to determine what's the most likely position of the device below the surface.

GINSBERG: Finding it steady or fading? Is that what you mean?

GINSBERG: Well that's a function of the water. The medium through which the signal is passing -- in this case, the ocean.

LEMON: Yes. So does it concern you that we haven't heard it anymore? Is it the last pulses? It could be the -- possibly the last pulses if it is, indeed?

GINSBERG: It does. I mean, I -- as all of us do, we -- we certainly pray that what they -- what they detected was not the last dying gasp of the batteries.

LEMON: Of the batteries. Yes. And you've done a number of these before? Audio --

GINSBERG: Yes. Black boxes and CVR -- cockpit voice recordings.

LEMON: Mary Schiavo, this is exactly the kind of information that Paul is talking about is exactly the information and the way investigators go about it with audio experts like him.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Right. That's correct. You need -- you have to have the audio experts not only to analyze the information from the black box, but then eventually to present it in a courtroom. But it's really important because everything about the black box is significant. You know, the -- first of all, finding it and then the information on the black box. Because of the pinger, is what we call it, is so unique, as your guest has just explained, that's going to be the one thing that they hopefully will find in the whole ocean is this one little sound.

LEMON: One little sound. All right. Stand by, everyone. Our panel of experts is going to stick around.

But next, it is Monday morning in Australia. And a new day of searching is under way. We're going to go live to Perth. That's next.

And two pulse signals and what's being called an acoustic noise have been detected in the water -- our ocean search specialist joining us after a quick break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Just hours ago a British ship carrying cutting edge technology arrived in the area where two pulse signals were detected below the ocean's surface. The HMS Echo is equipped with highly sophisticated sound (inaudible) equipment and could provide the big break everyone has been waiting for.

Our senior international correspondent, Matthew Chance, live in Perth, the hub of the search operation. Matthew, what's happening there?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes well, it's been four hours now since the HMS Echo, that sophisticated British ship, arrived in the area where the Chinese detected those apparent pings over a course of a sort of 36-hour period one of them just 90 seconds long using pretty -- pretty basic technology. You saw the images, perhaps, of the kind of things they were using used to shallow depths.

But what's going to happen now is this British ship which will bring the latest, perhaps the most sophisticated technology to the area to try and verify what the Chinese apparently came across. To see if that is related in any way to that missing Malaysian Airliner. It's not the only area that's being searched at the moment.

Another key area is the area being looked at by the Ocean Shield, which is an Australian vessel, dragging behind it a bit of sophisticated American technology for tracking these pingers. That's in an area 300 nautical miles away from where the Chinese site is. And that's also investigating what's being termed an acoustic event in that area as well to see whether that's a potential possibility where the Malaysian Airliner could have come down.

And so a couple of places where the focus of this search is now happening but at the moment still nothing verified as to being anything linked with the missing Malaysian plane.

LEMON: Matthew Chance at the hub of the operation for the search in Perth, Australia. Thank you very much, Matthew. You know, the race is on to follow these new leads all right -- to follow these new leads and possibly find the black boxes. And then possibly find the plane.

Ocean search specialist and CNN analyst Rob McCallum joins me now from Seattle. Rob, these pulse signals seem to be the best lead we have got. So where do we go from here?

ROB MCCALLUM, CNN ANALYST: Well, they are the best lead we have at the moment. Not forgetting Ocean Shield is also on to some sort of acoustic anomaly. You know, this is the only real lead we have at the moment. So the priority of the day is to get assets into the water and to listen both from echo and also perhaps from sonar buoys.

LEMON: How much skepticism should we put in this? Should the search teams be skeptical of these reports of audio content, Rob?

MCCALLUM: That's a good question. You know, the video footage that we see is of a hand-held device, hand-held pinger locator which was only ever designed for relatively shallow water, close order kind of work. It was always going to be a big ask for the towed pinger locator to locate the pinger. To do it on a hand held device is a long shot, indeed.

LEMON: The question is, what else could it be? What else could it be? Some people said it could be ocean life. It could be a whale. It could be other instruments used by the military. We're not sure. We're going to explore those possibilities with Rob and our other guests right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The search to track down three mysterious pulse signals is happening right now in the Southern Indian Ocean. I want to bring back Rob McCallum, a CNN ocean search specialist and professional expedition leader. If you were heading up this search right now, given what you know, where would you be going from here, Rob?

MCCALLUM: The first priority as always is to follow the acoustic leads. And there are two of those today, which is, you know, great. But I'd also be continuing with the reanalysis of the original data that got us into this area to try and pin down the search area for possible other pinger deployment locations.

LEMON: Hey, Rob, I'm glad you said that because we have an acoustic expert, a sound expert. As a matter of fact, he's known as an acoustic archaeologist.

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: Audio archaeologist because I dig very low sounds out of noisy situations. Like restaurant noise or sometimes cockpit audio.

LEMON: So what do you do, try to figure out who -- just anything -- whose voice it is? What the sound is?

GINSBERG: Sometimes. And sometimes I want to have a pertinent conversation that happens to be, say, evidence of a crime in a criminal case. And not be listening to everything else that's happening in the restaurant. So my job is to pinpoint or --

LEMON: So I said what else could it be? Some people said it could be sea life. You said it could be sea life but --

GINSBERG: Well, no. I said there are so many characteristics --

LEMON: Ok.

GINSBERG: -- that a pulse from one of these pingers would have that if it -- if you heard something and detected something that had all of these characteristics, then I would say that is what you're dealing with.

LEMON: Ok. Let's go over it, right? Because you talked about the frequency, you talked about the pure tone or the chirp. Which one do you want to hear first? The tone or the chirp? GINSBERG: Ok. Let's hear the pure tone. It's like a whistle but pulsed.

LEMON: Ok.

(PURE PULSE)

GINSBERG: Now, what that is, is -- it's a burst of pure tone for two- tenths of a second, repeated each second.

LEMON: Ok.

GINSBERG: In other words, within each second, one fifth of it or two- tenths second is the tone. That's at a single frequency in this case 1,000 cycles. So we can hear it. In our real case, it's 37.5 thousand cycles way above our hearing. But that's what the dog or the porpoise would hear.

LEMON: Ok.

GINSBERG: Now, had it been set to chirp rather than pure pulse so that it would be more easily identifiable --

LEMON: Listen.

GINSBERG: -- it would sound like this.

(CHIRP PULSE)

That's very similar to what you had been playing for days as the example.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: And it's like -- it's like a combination lock. You can set the chirp to go from one frequency to another. In fact, you can set it one way for one aircraft pinger and another way for another aircraft's pinger.

LEMON: So if you're hearing either the tone or the pulse, then you know -- and those bursts, then you know it's not a whale. It's not a military --

GINSBERG: Correct.

LEMON: -- other frequency or something, a dolphin that has been tagged.

GINSBERG: I would say yes because it would have all of the characteristics with precision. And we can measure to one-ten thousandth of a second --

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: -- to see whether it's exactly -- LEMON: So the Chinese boat that picked up a sound, right, the Haixun 01, the Ocean Shield which possibly picked up a sound, all they have to do is compare it to what type of sound that has been programmed into the black boxes or the audio recorders --

GINSBERG: Exactly.

LEMON: -- on 370.

GINSBERG: And see that all of the characteristics agree.

LEMON: Yes. Ok. Great. Everybody wants to ask him questions about this. Rob, I'm sure you have questions. Les is chomping at the bit to ask him questions -- after the break. Don't go anywhere. This is fascinating.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Don Lemon.

Priority one: find out if there's anything to those pings heard this weekend by the Chinese search crew. There's a hunt for Flight 370 and a specially equipped ship has now arrived where those pulses were picked up.

The British navy ship has high-tech detection gear on it. And they have been onsite and working for a few hours now. And then there's that emergency beacon itself. Wherever it is the batteries won't be good for much longer. Today is day 31 since Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 vanished and in the Indian Ocean right now a frantic search is under way to track down three mysterious pulse signals -- two of them apparently matching the same frequency of a black box pinger.

CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo; CNN aviation analyst Les Abend; Paul Ginsberg forensic audio expert -- hopefully you'll become an analyst here on CNN. I would love that; and then Rob McCallum, CNN analyst and ocean search specialist.

So I'm going to play examples of the sounds that they're now listening for. The first is called a chirp pulse. Listen.

(CHIRP PULSE)

LEMON: The other is called a pure pulse.

(PURE PULSE)

LEMON: All right? So those are the two things. Those were played -- those were provided to us by Paul Ginsberg here. Richard Quest, come on in here because we want you to weigh in on this. We have been listening to the information that Paul has been providing us about the search and about the differences in how these black boxes could be programmed, their frequencies. Obviously it's the same frequency, but they can be programmed so that you distinguish between one black box or another from different airplanes.

GINSBERG: Well, they can be programmed so that they repeat every second.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: Every second and a half. Every half second. And that the burst duration can be programmed to different times. The frequency can be programmed. And whether or not it's a pure tone or a chirp so that each one can have a different -- a combination that's unique --

LEMON: Ok.

GINSBERG: -- and identifiable.

LEMON: All right. So, I know Rob McCallum is there. Les Abend is there. Les, I know you had a question for him and that was?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Paul, is it important to know what box or what the CVR, the DVDR that has the pingers attached to them, which one is which in order to locate this signal?

GINSBERG: Well, they have to know what to be listening for. It's like trying to listen for extra terrestrial life. You have to know which direction to point your antenna. Which frequency range to listen on. What the duration would be. Whether or not what you're receiving is noise or is, in fact, what you're looking for. And the manufacturer as well as the installation and operation can no doubt tell you exactly how each of these was programmed.

TOM FUENTES, CNN ANALYST: Are they all 37.5?

GINSBERG: I believe it's programmable.

FUENTES: OK.

LEMON: Rob McCallum, you have a question for Paul? Or anything you want to add?

ROB MCCALLUM, CNN ANALYST, OCEAN SEARCH SPECIALIST: I'd like him to comment, really, in that, you know, pingers are used widely in the deep water industry for relocating science packages that are left on the sea floor and need to be retrieved later or retrieving fishing gear. Any place that you really need to get back to that exact spot you put a pinger on it and come back later. Do you have any comment, Paul, on how far a signal from a commercial application might have traveled?

GINSBERG: That's difficult to say because we're talking about the medium through which this signal is passing being the water. And whether or not it's still. Which, of course, we know it's not. It's moving. Also, you may have all sorts of obstructions. Whether it's the rest of the aircraft sitting on top of this pinger. Or sea walls to the left or right which are impeding the signal. It's almost like an audible signal.

It's almost like a sound in a room - coming out of a cave. Where if you're in front of the cave entrance, you could hear it. But if you're to the left or right, it's being just directed upward. LEMON: It would go right past you, right?

GINSBERG: Yes. It's possible. It's all different.

LEMON: Mary, you want to get in on this? You have a comment or question?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Sure. I have a question. You know, we've heard over the past couple days that perhaps these pingers could be used on other applications. Like undersea exploration equipment or fishing gear equipment. I was wondering if the guest knew if there was any difference, if there's any industry standard if you would set the frequency and more importantly the - the timing on the ping for one way for an aircraft application and perhaps slightly different for oceanographic expeditions, et cetera, or if there are no standards as to how you must set them?

GINSBERG: I'm not aware of specific standards. I would expect that there is -the frequency of 37.5 kilohertz as the center frequency that we would be looking at. In the same way that we would be looking for, what is it, 121.5 for a beacon. But I'm just saying that the equipment can be set. It can be programmed higher or lower, depending upon what the application is.

LEMON: But no industry standard for -

GINSBERG: Not that I'm aware of.

LEMON: Richard?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely fascinating.

LEMON: I know he's amazing.

QUEST: Absolutely fascinating. Really. So pull the strings together if you would. Bearing in mind now what you've been saying and what you now know that they are engaged upon, how difficult is it?

GINSBERG: Oh, it's very difficult. We're not talking about a swimming pool. We're talking about, from what I understand, about 15,000 feet through this water. The signal is very weak to begin with. We're at the end of the battery life. There's propagation. There are echoes, also, that they have to deal with which make it very difficult. Because they can distort the shape of the received pulse. You see? So there are a lot of different things playing in here. And if you heard the reception or you detected the reception, you would - it would not be a clean signal to begin with.

LEMON: No. All right. We got to go. You have another one?

QUEST: In a word. Are you still surprised that the aviation industry uses something so basic as the pinger to find something so important? Yes or no.

GINSBERG: Well - LEMON: Hang on. Don't answer that. After the break. Now, I want to ask him, too, why is all this information, which I asked you before the show, why is all the information presumably still at the bottom of the ocean with this plane and not in some information system in Washington or somewhere in the United States or elsewhere? We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Richard Quest is back with us trying to hijack the show a little bit earlier. But that's all right. Just kidding. You had a question for us.

QUEST: Successfully.

LEMON: Your question was what to him?

QUEST: It was really this. Bearing in mind the - so much rests on the pinger, are you surprised that we are still using something so rudimentary for something so important?

GINSBERG: Well, I'm a little surprised, however I don't know of anything better. What I would suggest is that there are people in the intelligence community who I know developing longer lasting batteries. And so whereas the pinger may be the best thing we have now, it could last much longer.

LEMON: My question is, why is all this information presumably on the bottom of the ocean with this plane if that's, in fact, where the plane is instead of in some information system place or warehouse where all of this could be stored?

GINSBERG: This is after the fact technology.

LEMON: Yes.

GINSBERG: It's what we -

LEMON: Why is that?

GINSBERG: I agree with you. What's implicit in your question is why isn't it somewhere else.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: Other than on the bottom of the ocean.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: Presumably. And that is something that needs to be addressed such that we have all of the data, both the voice and from the data recorder, being up linked constantly to satellites and stored in either government agency and/or the aircraft company office.

LEMON: Right.

GINSBERG: So that we never have this situation repeat. LEMON: Yes. Thank you. You're not going anywhere. For some reason now, you are the favorite guest. The favorite guest on this show. I think I can figure out why. Because you're - quite honestly, you're a wealth of knowledge. My producer goes, sorry, Les. Of course, Les Abend is a wealth of information as well.

(CROSSTALK)

GINSBERG: And Mary -

LEMON: But the question is, though, why did this plane, according to the new information, fly around Indonesian radar supposedly? Well, we're going to check that out and see how possible that is in a flight simulator with our Martin Savidge coming up in just moments. They're getting ready now. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: New leads today injecting new vigor into the search for flight 370. I want to head back now to the flight simulator (INAUDIBLE) Martin Savidge and Mitchell Casado, of course, is with him.

According to the Malaysian government source, (INAUDIBLE) Malaysian government source, flight 370 curved north around Indonesia before turning south toward the Indian Ocean, taking it around Indonesian air space. Is this something that is preprogrammed or is that something done manually, guys?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I guess you could say it could be done either way. But for the purpose of this scenario, we both agreed that it was probably preprogrammed if, in fact, it happened. And that, of course, would certainly introduce the idea that this is a sinister criminal and not an accident. I'll let Mitchell explain what he did to come up with the new route.

MITCHELL CASADO, PILOT TRAINER, 777 COCKPIT SIMULATOR: What I did here was just program what I - what made sense to me for waypoints.

SAVIDGE: There's no way points they used.

CASADO: No, of course not. There's no way to know until we get the recorders back. So we would have come from this direction here. Actually this white dot here is the airport at Kuala Lumpur. We would have headed this way toward the north east and headed toward Beijing and continued into this area here. What actually happened is they made a left turn. This blue stuff here, that's Malaysia. They crossed over the country. Then here's Indonesia.

They made a wide left turn to skirt around Indonesian air space. Gave it a really wide berth, enough that it wouldn't be seen on radar. Then south toward the -

SAVIDGE: To enter those way points, how many did you put in to make that route?

CASADO: It took me about a minute and a half. About 18 way points. SAVIDGE: About 18 waypoints. So in essence, you know, a minute and a half is using the flight management system, a keypunch system here in the cockpit, you could make that new course correction. How about this? Could you have preprogrammed it on the ground?

CASADO: Yes, you could have preprogrammed it on the ground as long as the other pilot was OK with it.

SAVIDGE: There's no way you could have done it on the fly and the other pilot, co-pilot not know?

CASADO: No.

SAVIDGE: Back to you.

LEMON: Hey, guys, Les Abend has a question for you.

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Hey, Marty and Mitchell. For you, I mean, that's very cumbersome, I think you and I would agree on that. Go all those way points. It would take me longer than it did you. Would you not agree that maybe heading select was utilized for that, for all that turn with the autopilot still on?

CASADO: Yes. I totally agree. If the - it is totally possible. You know as well as I do that heading select - but the only thing with that is, you have to know the heading to choose. To know that I think we can both agree they'd have to look into the charts - or would have had to look at the charts beforehand to know which headings are going to take them around that radar air space if, in fact, that's what they were trying to do.

LEMON: What does that mean? What does that mean, Marty? Heading select versus way point?

ABEND: Point to the mode control panel for Don, if you would, Mitchell. Where heading select is, if you would.

CASADO: Sure.

ABEND: Just turn that knob.

LEMON: For people who have no idea what you're talking about, heading select means you're selecting a specific heading?

ABEND: A specific heading. The airplane will just simply turn to that heading. You can constantly turn the airplane with that knob, right there, that Mitchell is pointing.

LEMON: As opposed to what, taking way points.

ABEND: Way points. Correct.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It will take you here and here and here and here? ABEND: Correct. However, I was going to ask Mitchell, you also not navigate also navigate by the radar, putting it down. Pick up ground clutter and know where water is, land is, with the radar?

LEMON: So what was the reason be - why would you use way points as opposed to heading select as opposed to radar? What's the difference? What would that tell you about what happened to this airplane?

ABEND: Well, if way points were used, that would be a - a definite plot. And that would be a very complicated plot. It wouldn't make sense to me at all.

LEMON: OK.

ABEND: I would use heading select. Absolutely. Just too complicated to put in all those way points.

LEMON: Mitchell, what does that tell you? What's the difference?

CASADO: The way points, it's a lot more work. It's a lot more preplanning. There's a lot more premeditation in my mind to use way points. It's a lot of work to figure out what way points to choose. Heading select is more, you know what? Maybe I don't want to go to Beijing. Maybe I'll just do this.

LEMON: OK. So you said it's - it shows a difference in premeditation.

ABEND: Premeditation, absolutely. If you're putting in all those way points. I mean, that was a lot of way points. I commend Mitchell for putting all those in. That was - you know, 18 way points, that's a lot of way points.

LEMON: All right. Don't go anywhere. Thanks, Mitchell, Marty. We'll see you soon. Thanks everybody. Stick around. Much more ahead on the search for flight 370 still ahead, including how you recover a plane from 15,000 feet below the surface of the ocean.

But next, a landmark anniversary just a couple of days away. An exclusive conversation with the man many consider the real home run king, Hank Aaron. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Back to our top story in just a moment. The search for Malaysia airlines flight 370. But first, we want to bring you some other stories that are happening now.

President Barack Obama plans to attend the memorial for the victims of the shooting rampage at Ft. Hood, Texas. The first lady will accompany the president Wednesday. Three soldiers were killed. 16 others were wounded when a fellow soldier opened fire on the base before taking his own life.

This little spider that you're about to look at is making a headache for Mazda. The automakers are recalling more than 40,000 vehicles saying these pesky spiders love to spin their webs inside the fuel lines which can clog them and potentially cause a fire. It turn out the yellow sac spider really likes the smell of gasoline. Mazda had a similar problem three years ago. They recalled more than 50,000 cars then to install a little screen gizmo that keeps the spiders out.

Just two days from now, Tuesday, April 8th, marks the 40th anniversary of one of sport's greatest achievements. On that date in 1974, Hank Aaron hit his 715th home run, breaking Babe Ruth's record that had stood for decades. With that swing in the home town of Martin Luther King Jr., he struck a mighty blow for civil rights as well.

CNN.com sports contributor Terence Moore is here. He's also a contributor to mlb.com. Terrance, I haven't seen you in a month of Sundays. Good to see you.

TERENCE MOORE, CNN.COM SPORTS CONTRIBUTOR: Talking about the little plane I guess.

LEMON: Yes, yes. We have been all plane all the time. You have something special for us today. An exclusive excerpt from your conversation with Hank Aaron. He rarely give interviews. How did you come about getting this?

MOORE: Well, Don, I've known Hank for more than 30 years. He and I have always gotten along great. He will talk to me when he won't talk to anyone else in the media. So with that anniversary coming up, I gave Hank a call. He graciously agreed to do the interview. Here's the thing, Don.

Hank is recovering from hip surgery from slipping on the ice here in Atlanta which tells you how great this was that he would do this. We sat down for over an hour to talk about anything and everything you could possibly imagine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANK AARON, BROKE MLB'S HOME RUN RECORD: I've always been one to, in spite of all the things that I went through, you mentioned some of it, I've always been able to separate the two. I always felt like once I got - once I put the uniform on and once I got on the playing field, that I could separate the two from an evil letter I got the day before or even 20 minutes before.

That I could concentrate on what I had to do as far as trying to watch a fastball. Or someone throwing a ball at 90 miles an hour rather than worrying about a letter that somebody sent. And I was able to concentrate that simply because I guess you could say, god gave me a separation. Gave me the ability to separate the two of them.

MOORE: Do you ever wonder sometimes how much - what you would have done without all that stuff? Could you hit like 900 home runs instead of the 755?

AARON: You know, I often - that is one thing I often think about. Nobody ever asked the question, if I had had the means, if somebody had said, oh, Hank, come on. Let's go out and have dinner tonight rather than worrying about slipping out of the back doors of ballparks or staying in a hotel that your ball players, or your teammates were not there. I don't know what I would have done.

MOORE: Let's go back to that date, April 8th. Such a fascinating day. You hit the home run and it is going toward left center field (INAUDIBLE) Al Downey is the pitcher. You're running toward first base. Let's stop right there. What do you think about when you're going to first base?

AARON: Not much of anything. I think when I touch first base, when I got almost to second base, I started thinking about, I start thinking about, isn't this wonderful that here I am, the third oldest child of Estella and Herb Aaron and the two of them are sitting in the stands watching me play professional baseball. Isn't it wonderful that they could be here on this day to witness history. And I tell you, to this day, I don't know how she managed to do it. I think Bartholomew told me, he opened a gate or something but she got to home plate quicker than I got to home plate.

MOORE: That's a great scene. Bill Bartholomew, the breaker of the braves. The tears were flowing. What was said during that moment when you were at home plate and she was there hugging you?

AARON: I don't think there was much said because she was - I don't think I could say much really. But she was happy. She was very happy. And I was also.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MOORE: I tell you what, Don, there is a lot more to this too. And people don't realize how funny Hank is. Wait until you hear the clip when I asked Hank who made $250,000 at most in a season, how much he thinks he would make today. His answer, he would be a replacement for David Letterman, he was so funny.

LEMON: I can't wait to see that. All right. Terence, thank you. Be sure to join us next Saturday evening with more of CNN's conversation with Hank Aaron, including his thoughts on Jackie Robinson and some interesting comments about the always controversial Barry Bonds.

Plus, Terence has written a special column for our website, as part of our online special coverage, "Besting Ruth, Beating Hate: How Hank Aaron Made Baseball History." Look for that on Tuesday on cnn.com.