Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Hospital Update of Stabbing Victims; Stabbing Victims Speak Out; Lyndon Johnson's Fight for Civil Rights

Aired April 10, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DR. CHRIS KAUFMANN, FORBES REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: So that's a reality of trauma surgery today is that we stop the operation at a point when the patient either becomes cold, has problems with coagulation, and we think it's better to stop and come back another day. The other reason we sometimes do it is to take another look at the injuries and make sure that everything is healing as we expect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctor, can you say whether the wounds in the patients show a sign of some kind of struggle?

KAUFMANN: There's no way to tell. In trauma surgery, we realize that we don't know the position of the patient when they were stabbed. Usually somebody doesn't stand still in that type of an episode because it's not always a surprise that somebody is -- has been stabbed. Although I do understand for some of the victims, yesterday they were unaware that this was going on, and they were surprised. So in the patients that we received, these patients each had a stab wound that looked like it was more of a surprise than any kind of a struggle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What tells you that, sir? That it looked like a surprise?

KAUFMANN: Well, usually if it's a defensive wound, people would use their arms to try to fend off somebody with a knife. And our patients -- the seven patients we received -- all had stab wounds to their trunk. They had stab wounds to their chest, their abdomen and their back.

(inaudible)

BRETT HURT, STABBING VICTIM: I didn't really know what was going on at the time because I was walking down the hallway with a friend of mine -- Gracie Evans. And then it just all, like, hit. She was screaming. I was just standing there. Everything just went -- like I didn't even know what was going on. I was just so surprised, I could barely move because I got stabbed in the back and it's just -- I had to have help going to the next room and her putting pressure on my wound to make sure I didn't bleed out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was going through your mind?

HURT: What was going through my mind? Will I survive, or will I die? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounds like your friend saved your life.

HURT: Yes. Yes, she saved my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you feeling now?

HURT: In pain, but I'm healing slowly but surely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you expect to go home soon?

HURT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over the weekend, or have the doctors told you -- gave you some indication of when you can go home?

HURT: They said it depends on how I do today. So I might go home today.

(inaudible)

HURT: Repeat?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were your injuries?

HURT: I got stabbed in the back -- stabbed in the back and a bruised lung.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you remember seeing? What were your eyes telling you when this was all happening?

HURT: It was all kind of like a blur. The only thing I remember is messing around with Gracie and like, bumping her out of the way because usually I just goof off in the morning just a little bit and be playful. The next thing I know, the kid runs by and hits me in the back. That's when everything just went into straight chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said that you possibly saved her from getting stabbed. Do you remember pushing her out of the way when you saw him?

HURT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you describe that?

HURT: It happened so fast, it's kind of hard to describe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you know the assailant at all before this?

HURT: I had met him a couple times but never really talked to him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of reputation does Alex have in school?

HURT: I don't know his reputation. But after today, he's going to have a bad one.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you plan to (inaudible) get back on the playing field?

HURT: Can you repeat that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you play any sports?

HURT: I used to, but with me working, I kind of just stopped playing sports. I just hit the weight room there and again.

AMANDA HURT, MOTHER OF BRETT HURT: He does things outside of the school. Youth group with some friends. He gets into PT training, which is part of a friend's military kind of weightlifting and physical training stuff that he does outside of the school -- but nothing in the school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many students were in the hallway? Were there scores of people? Is that why he was able to stab so many?

B. HURT: There were so many people in the hallways. And then when someone said they saw blood or something, everyone just started screaming. But when I got hit, everyone noticed and just started running in different directions. Gracie was screaming and asking me if I was all right. She was trying to keep pressure on my back and take me into a safe room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he was running down the hallway just hitting everybody --

B. HURT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- at random?

B. HURT: At random.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think you were one of the first persons -- were you in the part of the hallway where it began?

B. HURT: I was hit -- I was hit -- the third person or the fourth person to get hit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma'am, can you talk about what it means to have Brett here safe and sound?

A. HURT: To know that my son made it and to know that so far every parent could be blessed to know that their child is still here, to me that's a godsend. It really is. When my daughter called me at work yesterday, freaking out, and told me that my son was on the list of victims, I dropped. I don't think any parent in the world would ever want to go through that kind of agony and for all the students' parents who are in the hospital with their children right now. I send my condolences, and I understand your pain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma'am, do you have anything to say to Gracie?

A. HURT: I've already hugged her and kissed her. I have told her thank you. And there is nothing in the world that I can do for that girl to thank her for what she has done. B. HURT: We owe her a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said she saved your life.

A. HURT: If it weren't for their playful moment in the hallway, I think both of them would have been hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were playing with her and shoved her out of the way in a playful way you think that saved her?

B. HURT: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the way she tells it is that you threw your body in front of her and that you saved her life. That's what she told us this morning on the "Today" show.

Amanda, how do you handle that, knowing that he saved her life?

A. HURT: I think for any mother, I'm proud of her as much as I am proud of my own son. For what achievements he wants to make and for every hardship we have gone through in our lives, I'm proud of him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amanda, what are your thoughts on Alex?

A. HURT: In all honesty, any child that is honestly able to do something like that, I feel that it is not only his peers, his family, but it is the school who needs to look and say what have we done to alienate this child for him to do such a gruesome thing. And I hope that his family can find peace, and I hope this child can find peace in some way and come out and show his true feelings on why he did what he did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any reason to think that he was alienated or bullied?

A. HURT: I think in this time, in this age that we live in, in all honesty, I think there's more bullying than what anybody wants to say. And I honestly feel that some students, they have a tendency of some shyness, more than other students do. You have a group of children in the world that are fun, outgoing, loving, charming. You have other kids that are just solid, you know, individuals and some that are just shy and don't know how to handle society.

And it's in that way that we need to look and say how are our children coping with social skills these days? How are they with other children? How are they being tested in the world for negative or positive ways? And we need to start testing that now. Before it goes any further than what it has.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brett, can I ask, are you anxious to get back to school to be with your friends?

B. Hurt: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure I can go to school at this point in time. I think if I walked in there, I might just freeze and wouldn't be able to move. I mean I just need time to just cope. I think all of us who got injured in the accident need time to cope. We're all lucky to still be alive even the people that are in critical right now. Right now they're lucky. We're pretty much blessed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the doctors tell you that you have any limitations? It sounds like you're an athlete, a weight lifter and all that. Are you hopeful that you'll be able to get back to where you were?

B. HURT: Sooner or later, I wish I can, but that all comes with time and how long it will take for me to heal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brett, were you able to defend yourself at all?

B. HURT: No. It happened from behind. I didn't even -- he was running up the hallway and hit me on the way, and I didn't even know what happened. I just kind of froze right there on the spot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At that point was the fire alarm going off?

B. HURT: Like, I think -- I'm not totally sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some kids who got threatening phone calls the night before the incident. Were you one of them, or do you know any of the kids who did?

B. HURT: No. I had -- no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if the first stabbing was in a classroom or in the hallway? You were in the hallway, right?

B. HURT: I was in the hallway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if the kid went into classrooms? There are some reports that he went into classrooms.

B. HURT: I was told he started from, like, the end of the hallway where we were at and then walked his way up and went into a couple classrooms or something. That's what I was told, so I'm not totally sure.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brett, how do you feel about Alex?

B. HURT: I feel that he has some issues he needs to work out. He made a really bad decision which took him down a path that I don't think he should have took -- went down. I think he could have chosen a different path to take, because everyone has more than one road to take in life. You choose which path you want to take, and that path will lead you on to your consequences later in the future. Everyone has those roads. Everyone has a choice. Everyone can make the right or wrong decision.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think he was alienated or bullied in school?

B. HURT: I only met him a couple times, so I don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brett, prom season is coming up. You got plans? A. HURT: Oh, yes. We found out two days before the incident his girlfriend, Beth, she goes to a different school. She is still in hopes that he is going to be healed up enough, and so does he. He said he plans on dancing.

B. HURT: I plan on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned your daughter. Was she at the school as well, or was she at a different school?

A. HURT: My daughter is in the high school as well. She's a freshman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she in the hallway?

A. HURT: She was down the hallway coming out. She was in the library. Apparently whenever she came out is after the fire alarm went off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you what she experienced?

A. HURT: She said she saw blood. She said she saw a student with a stab wound in the stomach. And she basically went into shock after that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How is she doing now?

A. HURT: She's with a friend. I'm very grateful for her friend, Nolan, who's been with her and who stayed with her the whole time at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So I would imagine you're going to keep your kids out of school for a while at home to heal?

A. HURT: For a little bit, and I plan on getting back into some therapy. Chelsea, she's in therapy right now to help her out.

DR. MARK RUBINO, FORBES REGIONAL HOSPITAL: Out of respect -- one second. Brett, we appreciate your courage. He's displayed maturity beyond his years. And I think that what we need to do for Brett, as his physicians, is limit it to two more questions. And really be respectful of Brett and his time and what he's gone through.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brett, do you forgive Alex?

A. HURT: I honestly feel that once he gets help, maybe he can forgive himself.

B. HURT: See, maybe -- I've been thinking. Maybe if he had more friends or somebody to help him out or to like, show him a different path, maybe it would have been different.

A. HURT: Apparently he didn't have enough supports that some of the other students in the school have. And we hope that he could make amends on what he's done. And hopefully he will come out with the truth on what his display of action, what caused it. B. HURT: And I just hope that one day he can -- everyone -- he can -- I can forgive him and everyone else who got hurt can forgive him. Most of all he needs to forgive himself.

RUBINO: Thank you very much, Brett. And thank you, Amanda. One comment, I have been in touch with the superintendent of schools for Franklin Regional, Gennaro Piraino. We spoke today -- we spoke this morning about really -- we could see the trauma that Brett has experienced. And we know that he and the other students are going to need some resources to reach out to.

So when anything bad happens, there's so much good that comes out in our community. And we have numerous counselors and crisis programs, a lot of people reaching out to us. What we do need to do is manage that. And working with the superintendent of school, we're going to put the resources we have together through the Allegheny Health Network. We do have an adolescent trauma post-traumatic syndrome program, and we're going to match that to get with some of the other resources we have in our communities, in our churches, in our schools.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We're going to pull away. But what a touching news conference this was -- that high school student, Brett Hurt, who was stabbed in the back and his mother. It was just -- it was just truly amazing. What a wonderful young man.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is following the investigation part of this story at the high school. I'm also joined by Dr. Steven Berkowitz, he's the director for the Penn Center for Youth and Family Trauma Response. Welcome to both of you.

I'd like to start with you, Doctor. This young man seems so centered. He brought up often his friend, Gracie. And I want to put up a picture of Gracie because both of them credit the other with saving their lives, right?

Brett was saying he was standing in the hall, and he was playfully pushing Gracie and then suddenly he was stabbed in the back. She applied pressure to his wound. And as he put it, she stopped him from bleeding out. These kids seem so self-possessed, don't they Doctor.

DR. STEVEN BERKOWITZ, PENN CENTER FOR YOUTH AND FAMILY TRAUMA RESPONSE: Yes. I think it's hard to know at this particular point in time. They certainly seem very mature and very ready to be able to articulate what's going on for them.

But I think as you heard from him, you know, he's still in shock. He still feels very uneasy. He mentioned that he didn't think he could enter the school without freezing. So as articulate as he is, I would imagine that he's suffering from a great deal of, you know, post- traumatic stress symptoms at this point.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. And Miguel, you're covering the suspect in this case, Alex Hribal. And you heard Brett say that he chose the wrong path. He hopes that everybody could find it in themselves to forgive him. He said he didn't know him. He knew of him. Some students said he was shy. But his lawyer appeared on "NEW DAY" this morning and said he was your typical, average kid. He wasn't a loner. He had a good family. What have you found out about him?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, look. During his press conference --

(CROSSTALK)

BERKOWITZ: I actually --

COSTELLO: Wait. Miguel?

MARQUEZ: This is a lot of ordinary people -- this is a lot of ordinary people trying to make sense of an extraordinary situation here. We hear two sort of lines for this individual. Essentially that he was shy. Some of them saying he was shy to the point of being a nonentity. One person who claims to know him quite well, she said that he was kind of a creep oftentimes.

So we hear sort of different takes on this individual. All of them along that same vein of being very much a loner, very much by himself, but several students we talked to say he was always nice when I talked to him. He was always fine. Others saying he had a somewhat darker side.

That's what police are trying to do now. They have computer, they have cell phones, they have parents' computers as well. The FBI spent a long while at his house yesterday. The school is still on shutdown and won't be opened up until Monday. All of these data points of information trying to come together to paint a picture, to understand why this kid did what he did -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Dr. Berkowitz, we know that when he entered the school that morning, he was dressed all in black. We know he had armed himself with two kitchen knives, and he started very early in the morning when the students are in the hallway. And as you heard from Brett, he just walked up and ran up to students and stabbed them.

I mean what does that say about this kid in your mind?

BERKOWITZ: Well, it's hard to speculate. I think it's important that there is forensic, psychological evaluation to figure out who this child is, what his background is. But I think it's really problematic to speculate until we know more. There could be a range of issues and concerns that went missed. So I think we just have to wait and see. And to find out more about this particular boy and what motivated him to do such a horrific thing.

COSTELLO: We know a few more thing -- and Miguel, hopefully you can help me with this -- we know he had a relatively small social media presence. Did he own a cell phone? I'm not even sure if he did. What have you found out?

MARQUEZ: Police tell us this morning that they did seize a cell phone from him. They were also at the parents' house. The FBI said that they took a laptop computer that belonged to him yesterday morning. FBI was then at his house yesterday afternoon. They brought some of those big boxy computers out later in the afternoon. We suspect that those were probably belonged to the family -- probably to the parents. So they wanted those as well.

The parents, as we understand, are completely cooperating. The father just as shocked as everybody else is by this. The cell phone police say that they seized, it's not clear whether they took only his cell phone or his parents' cell phones as well in the event that he used those. But they want to paint as broad a picture as possible about what this kid was up to in the days, weeks, hours leading up to this -- Carol.

COSTELLO: But even as far as Facebook is concerned, Miguel, he had a Facebook page, but there wasn't much on it.

MARQUEZ: That is consistent with everything we hear about him at school -- that this is a very quiet guy. One person said that he sat at the back of the -- at the rear of the classroom all the time that he didn't really engage others unless he's engaged himself.

You look at the photo of him that we have versus the picture of him in the walk that he did from the police station into the police car yesterday while he was in a robe. He is tiny. He looks 12, not 16 years old. The photograph that we have makes him look like a much more mature kid. He looks like a very, very young, very small kid. And it is not very clear at the moment what is going on -- what was going on in his head. We certainly have two slightly divergent pictures of him though -- one just quiet and shy and kind; the other perhaps a little creepy -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And yet Dr. Berkowitz, when you take a look at what happened yesterday, it took four men, four grown men, to subdue him, to allegedly disarm him.

MARQUEZ: Well, actually, and one of them was a woman. An assistant principal jumped on him initially. A female assistant principal jumped on him as well to subdue him. Then a security officer came over and was able to secure him and handcuff him.

He said to those officers at that time, those individuals at that time, that he just wanted to die. So something clearly was going on much darker than anybody understood about this kid. And seemingly even more than the parents understood from everything we know right now -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Dr. Berkowitz, you were going to say?

BERKOWITZ: I was going to say that in these situations when you start to get that adrenaline rush and you're really amped up, that people can often be much stronger than they should be under normal circumstances.

You talk to law enforcement. You know, they're often amazed by how strong individuals can be under certain situations such as this. And so I imagine this boy was, you know, quite driven and probably, you know, very hard to contain and control.

COSTELLO: Absolutely. Well, we do know that police plan to charge him as an adult. The investigation goes on.

Miguel Marquez, Dr. Steven Berkowitz, thanks so much.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: President Lyndon Baines Johnson, known as a fierce politician with a sharp tongue, he was probably the last person some would expect to push for passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But while he was known for getting what he wanted politically, those who knew him say his fight was far from political gamesmanship.

Suzanne Malveaux has more for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): On the surface, Lyndon Baines Johnson was one of the most unlikely champions of civil rights.

ANDREW YOUNG, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: You had to like him. I mean, he was a big, lovable Texan. Even though he made you feel comfortable, he made you feel uncomfortable. He'd look down on you and he'd talk with you very intensely. And you couldn't say much to him.

MALVEAUX: It was famously called the Johnson Treatment. LBJ's power, as well as his quirks, were notorious as depicted by this scene from Lee Daniels' movie, "The Butler".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you all to get on the phone and call the NAACP.

MALVEAUX: Johnson's speech writer, Richard Goodwin.

RICHARD GOODWIN, LBJ SPEECHWRITER. He sat around (inaudible). And when you're in the military, it's happening all the time. And Johnson was used to doing that.

MALVEAUX: Johnson also reportedly swore like a sailor, and occasionally used the N word.

YOUNG: Well, back then it was part of our vernacular, too. I mean honestly. His language with Martin Luther King was always respectful.

MALVEAUX: But early in Johnson's political career he was no civil rights activist, casting votes against the legislation.

GOODWIN: When he was a senator from Texas, he really couldn't follow up that much because otherwise he would have lost his seat.

MALVEAUX: So what was the driving force behind this momentous moment? Many looked to Johnson's childhood in Texas, where he grew up in a small farmhouse as the eldest of five. YOUNG: He had been poor. Johnson had lived it and felt, I think, guilty enough and had had enough pain about his own hardship and poverty as a Texas schoolteacher.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): As president, he was a shrewd deal maker and politician drawing on his experience in Congress.

YOUNG: He had lived and breathed and been through a thousand battles with these guys. There was almost nobody in the House or the Senate that he had not done a favor for.

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Johnson had a reputation for his lust of power and control. But those who knew him say his fight for civil rights was not politically driven.

DORIS KEARNS-GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: He was 63 when JFK was killed. He knows he's going to have to run for election in '64. By going all out for civil rights, that was a brave thing.

YOUNG: Well, I think it had to be sincere, because there would have been -- it would have been too easy for him to get out of it. It was almost impossible to do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And Carol, another thing that Ambassador Young told me is he really thinks the Civil Rights Act would not have been passed if it had not been for LBJ, that there is no other person who had that kind of personality who would have been able to push it through.

But clearly this was a different time; he had a different relationship with Congress. He had a whole movement that was behind him essentially, but he did have that personality that was larger than life. And that's something that we're probably going to hear later today.

As you know, Carol, we've been following this the last three days. Four U.S. presidents here in Austin at the LBJ Library to celebrate this moment -- 50 years from the Civil Rights Act, but also to talk about how is it that this president, this congress and even the people, the American people themselves, can get together and get something done in Washington, maybe some big things to improve our community.

COSTELLO: I was just going to ask you, is there any LBJ today in your mind?

MALVEAUX: You know, it's funny because nobody -- nobody says that there's an LBJ that comes close, but I will tell you that you Andrew Young said he thought the one person that was most similar to LBJ would be Hillary Clinton. That she's the one person that has the kind of experience and the kind of relationships with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle that would be able to have some heft and push forward some legislation if she got in office.

So we'll see if that happens, but that was something that Andrew Young brought up. Doris Kearns Goodwin who I talked to --

COSTELLO: Didn't have anyone on the Republican side --

MALVEAUX: No -- but then, you know, it's not surprising, but we'll see. Goodwin says hey, it's all about the relationships. Make those relationships happen. People need to sit down and talk to each other, even if they disagree -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Suzanne Malveaux, many thanks.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR" with Berman and Michaela starts now.