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Flight 370 Suspects; Underwater Search; Militias Support Rancher in Stand Against U.S.

Aired April 11, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Don Lemon, in today for Brooke. Thanks for joining me.

Day 36 fast becoming a day of flip-flops. For weeks we have been told that every passenger on board Flight 370 has been cleared of any suspicious involvement in the plane's disappearance. But today, in an interview with Sky News, the Malaysian transport minister made an explosive revelation. This is still a criminal investigation and, quote, "everyone on board remains under suspicion as it stands." A complete turnaround with no real explanation why we were told otherwise. And on a day without any further credible leads, there was this from the Australian prime minister visiting China.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIA PRIME MINISTER: We have very much narrowed down the search area and we are very confident that the signals that we are detecting are from the black box on MH-370.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: That is unwavering confidence despite the fact that the man heading up the search, Angus Houston, says, quote, "on the information I have available to me, there's been no major breakthrough in the search for MH-370."

And that suspected fifth ping, detected by a sonobuoy on Tuesday, well, it turns out, it likely wasn't a ping at all. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Kuala Lumpur for us.

So, Nic, Malaysian officials seem to be contradicting themselves with the investigation into those on board. What is the bottom line today?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's one official in particular, the acting transport minister, the defense minister, who seems to be running against the information that's being given by the inspector general of police. The inspector general of police is leading the criminal part of the investigation. He was talking today about how he's been running down the leads and interviewing people. He interviewed 205 different people, statements taken. Some of those people include family members of crew on board the aircraft.

But this whole notion that the 227 passengers who were cleared from the investigation by the police chief last week that Hishammuddin Hussein, the acting transport minister, should suddenly say that they are not clear from the investigation is very peculiar. It's not the first time he's contradicted himself and contradicted other officials. Indeed, at a press conference a few days ago he said the same thing. CNN spoke with his assistant to get clarification and they said, you're correct, all the passengers have been cleared.

So what he is saying now hasn't had an adequate explain yet and certainly he hasn't come forward to say that why he is going against what the police chief said. And on top of that, the police chief spoke today and the police chief didn't come out and correct himself and say, sorry, the passengers are still under part of the investigation. Not clear at all, Don.

LEMON: Yes, not clear. If or when the black boxes are secured, Nic, who will recover the information from them?

ROBERTSON: The police chief here said today Malaysia will lead the investigation. That is an accepted fact under international treaty. What he said was that Malaysia lacks the experts to extract the information from the black boxes and they would have to appoint an expert to do that.

Now, he didn't say where they would -- where that expert would come from, which country. We know that the families have been saying they want French experts to be involved because they know the French got the block boxes from the bottom of the ocean when their aircraft went down off the coast of Brazil. So there's a lot of understanding on Malaysia, on the streets here, if you will, that the French are good at this sort of thing. But we don't know which way Malaysian officials are going to go with this at the moment, Don. That's very much an open question. But what is clear is they will make the decision. They're not leaving it up to anyone else. They'll pick who it's going to be.

Don.

LEMON: All right, Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

I want to bring in CNN aviation correspondent Richard Quest now.

Richard, Sky News quoting Malaysia's defense minister as saying everyone on board that plane now remains a suspect. That flies really in the face of what we were told by the inspector general of Malaysian police who said all of the passengers had been cleared. First, is it too early to rule anyone out and what's going on here with the contradictory information?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a bit shambolic when you have one minister saying one thing and contradicting something that I specifically remember the inspector general of police saying that they have ruled out the passengers because he gave a number, 227.

LEMON: Right.

And we then had to work out, well that meant the remaining number was -- were members of the crew. It's a bit late in the day for the left hand not to know what the right hand is up to. You can justify that at the beginning in the fog of the moment of the crisis. But this far down the road, they should be speaking from one voice.

LEMON: But how do we know what to believe coming from the Malaysian government? I mean should -- and can't they -- why can't they get on the same page here?

QUEST: I think it's inevitable that there will always be some discrepancies (INAUDIBLE)) the fact between one department. It happens in every big story. One person doesn't know what the other person has just said.

But something as fundamental as this, who -- whether or not they have cleared everybody or not, is a little bit basic. And those sort of things we shouldn't be hearing about now.

LEMON: Is it --

QUEST: And if one party is not sure, you say, I don't know.

LEMON: Right. That's very simple.

QUEST: I don't know.

LEMON: Just say, I don't know.

QUEST: I don't know.

LEMON: So let's talk about the data recorders --

QUEST: Yes.

LEMON: When or if they are retrieved from the bottom of the ocean where they are perceived to be --

QUEST: Yes.

LEMON: Then is it feasible that the Malaysian government will say, hey, now we want to -- the black boxes, we want to analyze them --

QUEST: No.

LEMON: Even though they don't have the --

QUEST: No, absolutely not. It's a technical issue. You either can do it or you can't.

LEMON: Right.

QUEST: You know, you can either do open heart surgery or you can't do open heart surgery.

LEMON: Or you can't.

QUEST: And if you start having a ham-fisted (ph) attempt at it, it will go horribly wrong. So where will the black boxes go? You're talking about one of the major centers, Australia, with the ATSB, the U.K., the AAIV (ph), the United States, the NTSB, in France, the BEA. My guess, if I was a guessing man, I'd say they'll go to Australia, the ATSB.

LEMON: Because they're heading up the search (ph).

QUEST: Enormously, enormously experienced.

LEMON: Let's talk about this ping locator -- the ping locator towed by the Australian ship the Ocean Shield.

QUEST: Yes.

LEMON: So far, four pings have -- the Australian prime minister says -- you were on the air last night when we heard it --

QUEST: Yes.

LEMON: We both reported it. He's very confident the pings are coming from the black boxes. Do you believe that confidence is well founded?

QUEST: I do. I do, actually. The Australian prime minister wouldn't make those sort of comments. You referred to Angus Houston's comment that there had been no major breakthroughs.

LEMON: Right.

QUEST: They are not in contradiction with each other. Houston was talking about events that may have happened on Friday. The prime minister was talking about the pings which have been happened and reported about earlier on. Houston was specifically reporting nothing has happened on the -- (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: And there's a slight bit of nuance here because Houston --

QUEST: On Thursday (ph), I beg your pardon.

LEMON: Houston had said all along that he thinks that it's consistent with an emergency locator, right? And then the -- the prime minister came out saying we're sure that this is it.

QUEST: We're very confident.

LEMON: We're very confident that this is it, yes.

QUEST: I think we have to allow the prime minister priministirial (ph) speak.

LEMON: Political speak, as they say.

Thank you, Richard. Appreciate it.

More coverage of the missing plane throughout this hour on CNN. Next, four confirmed pings, a shrinking search zone in the Indian Ocean, and the Australian prime minister saying they're confident they know the position of the black box within kilometers. So, when are they sending subs in? We're going to ask one expert that.

Plus, explaining what happens when a plane hits the ocean. Different types of crashes lead to different debris fields. So what scenario produces no debris? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.

Day 36 in the search for missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 and there is yet another new search area. It is a smaller stretch, roughly twice the size of Vermont. Ocean search specialist Mike Williamson is here to talk about what lies beneath the ocean's surface.

Mr. Williamson, how hard would it be to find a plane on the ocean floor?

MIKE WILLIAMSON, OCEAN SEARCH SPECIALIST: Well, Don, it's a -- it really depends a little bit about the seabed there. If there's a lot of relief (ph), it might be fairly difficult. But I don't think that's going to be the case. If we can narrow down the geographic area, certainly we have plenty of assets that can do a thorough search in this water depth.

LEMON: And what about the pressure on the ocean floor?

WILLIAMSON: Well, the pressure is really not a factor as its about 10,000 PSI or 8,000 PSI. But it's ambient pressure. So as long as the electronics are housed in pressure housing to protect the electronics rated for that depth, it shouldn't be an issue.

LEMON: Can a submarine withstand that depth, that 15,000 feet?

WILLIAMSON: There are a few research submarines that can, but generally speaking, not submarine in the sense of the word that I think you meant here.

LEMON: You mean -- you're talking about submersibles, right, is that what you mean?

WILLIAMSON: Well, there are manned submersibles. The Russians have the Meers (ph) and the Chinese and the Japanese both have research submersibles that are rated to over 7,000 meters. But that wouldn't be an effective tool to use in this case. It would usually be robotics, remotely operated vehicles, that are unmanned and tethered to the ship on the surface.

LEMON: But you can't really do that yet because that will produce sounds. As long as they're looking for -- they're trying to figure out if the -- for the black box sounds for those pingers, then you don't want any distraction from sound at least -- or as little distraction as possible, correct?

WILLIAMSON: That -- yes, that's correct. We want to find the -- localize the search area to the highest degree possible before we send in sonar assets to scan the bottom. LEMON: So the question is, when and if they do find the wreckage, how hard will it be to pull up from such depths? Obviously they'll have to use robotics. Will they use cables? What's the system here?

WILLIAMSON: Well, just last year the (INAUDIBLE) expeditions brought up the F-1 rocket motors from Apollo 11 and 12 in very similar water depths, actually a little bit deeper. And that was a very successful operation. It's obviously something that can be done in these water depths and we have the technology to do it.

LEMON: All right, Mike Williamson, thank you very much. We appreciate you.

Up next, a closer look at pinger detection teams. These are the trained specialists who are forced to block everything out and listen for that ping. One missed sound and that could set back the entire search.

Plus, another big developing story we're following.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back! Get back now! Now!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Dramatic video of a very tense standoff in Nevada. Members of a militia coming to the aid of a rancher. He says the U.S. government is unfairly targeting him and neither side is backing down as the standoff escalates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: It is a western showdown 20 years in the making. And recently it has gotten louder and more than intense. You'll soon see how. The confrontation is over one rancher who has refused to pay federal grazing fees since the early 1990s. As a last resort to get paid, the U.S. government is seizing his cattle. And that has set off a standoff with militia members from five states backing the rancher. CNN's Dan Simon live outside of Bunkerville, Nevada, where demonstrators for the rancher have been gathering today.

Dan, why won't he pay the fees?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, Don. It's because he says the federal government doesn't own that land. He says, he does. He says it's been in his family for multiple generations. And I tell you what, he's got a lot of supporters. They don't like what is happening to this rancher, the people that you see behind me. And at one point, Don, things got hostile.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back now!

SIMON (voice-over): This dramatic video Wednesday showed the rising tension over some prize (ph) desert in Nevada, about an hour and a half outside of Las Vegas. With dogs and Tasers, these federal officers were trying to clear a roadway blocked by protesters. An incident now under investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is America and they are the aggressors. We're not the aggressors.

SIMON: It all began when the USBLM, the Bureau of Land Management, began seizing hundreds of cattle owned by a local rancher, 68-year-old Cliven Bundy, a well-liked figure in this rural community.

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: The federal government is here with the army steeling my cattle is what it is. It's not seizing, they're stealing my cattle.

SIMON: Bundy and his son claim it's an illegal action because the cattle and lands belong to them.

AMMON BUNDY, CLIVEN'S SON: I grew up on this land and all the rest of you did too. Most of you did. And never once have we ever been kept away from going up on this land.

SIMON: But the BLM and the National Park Service says the Bundys don't own it, the government does, and therefore they need to pay grazing fees for the livestock. All told, Uncle Sam says the elder Bundy owes more than a million dollars in unpaid debts spanning two decades.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to leave now!

SIMON: This week, the BLM said enough is enough. Prepared for a battle, they had this run-in with Bundy's supporters. In a statement, federal authorities say a police dog was kicked and that officers protecting a civilian driver were threatened and assaulted. And as for the seizure, "the BLM and NPS have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially. Impoundment of cattle illegally grazing on public lands is an option of last resort."

The dispute, however, has brought self-proclaimed members of militia groups from across the country to join the rancher in fighting what they say is U.S. tyranny.

SIMON (on camera): Did you bring weapons with you?

WHIP HOLT, SOUTHERN (ph): I just prefer not to answer.

SIMON (voice-over): And there's no answer as to how long this standoff will last.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: And the story gets even more interesting because Nevada's Republican governor, Brian Sandoval, is actually backing Mr. Bundy. In the meantime, the cattle roundup continues. Mr. Bundy has said he'll do whatever it takes to protect his property. It's not really clear what that means. But now that you have militia men apparently added to the mix, many of whom are armed, there's a real concern, Don, that things could get even uglier. Back to you.

LEMON: Absolutely. Dan Simon will be standing by with that story. Dan, thank you. We appreciate you.

Some teenagers trying to figure out what to do with their lives will never get the chance to do it after the explosive collision Thursday on Interstate 5 in California. The NTSB has joined that investigation to explain why a FedEx tractor trailer crossed the median, then smashed head-on into a bus carrying high school students, igniting a fireball. The Highway Patrol says both drivers, five students and three chaperons were killed. More than 30 others, mostly students, survived, including Jonathan Gutierrez (ph), who was tweeting before and after the crash. His friend sent out a selfie Gutierrez took in a hospital bed. Gutierrez sent out this moments after he escaped, quote, "can't believe this just happened. I was asleep and next thing you know I was jumping out for my life." Eyewitnesses who rushed to the scene wanted to help, but the flames kept them back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUIS LOPEZ, EYEWITNESS: I went outside and everything was in flames already. There was a couple of explosions after that and a lot of people screaming and begging for help. With all the flames and all the smoke, it was just, cover your eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no way you could get near it?

LOPEZ: No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of a sudden I heard a sonic boom and I -- the house shook. When I got there, everything was engulfed and it was still spewing up black smoke. I just started praying like crazy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, the bus was one of three carrying low income and first generation students to see Humboldt State University. FedEx released this statement today, and it reads, quote, "all of us at FedEx are deeply saddened by the tragic accident in California. We are cooperating fully with the officials investigating this accident."

More coverage of missing Flight 370 next. One U.S. senator says he wants all commercial pilots to be armed. Will that help make flights safer in the future or make it even more dangerous for passengers? Our experts will debate that.

Plus, analyzing a debris field can reveal a lot about what happened right before a plane crashed. So what does it mean if there is no debris field? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Nearing the bottom of the hour now. I'm Don Lemon. This is CNN's special coverage of Flight 370. And we have now learned that that fifth ping picked up by a sonobuoy turns out it was not a ping at all. But as for the four previous signals picked up by the U.S. Navy towed ping locator, Australia's prime minister says he is confident they are from Flight 370 and that searchers are closing in on the black box.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: We are confident that we know the position of the black box flight recorder to within some kilometers. But confidence in the approximate position of the black box is not the same as recovering wreckage from almost four and a half kilometers beneath the sea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The search area, smaller today. A total of just 18,000 square miles -- just? That's still a lot. That's barely a fifth of the size of a week ago. And the listening area, some distance away, even smaller still.

Also today, Malaysia's defense minister reportedly tells Britain's Sky News that the CIA, British intelligence, Chinese intelligence, all three, are part of the effort to explain the plane's disappearance. He says every one on the flight remains under suspicion. That is quite a bit to chew on here. Time now for Jeff Wise. Jeff Wise is an aviation analyst, also aviation attorney, and former military pilot Justin Green. Also your book is called --

JEFF WISE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: "Extreme Fear: The Science --

LEMON: "Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger."

WISE: I'm surprised you have to ask, Don.

LEMON: I know. I just wanted to make sure. I want to ask both of you to pick up on -- this -- is this a crime or an accident because they're not ruling anyone out? Justin.

JUSTIN GREEN, MILITARY-TRAINED PILOT: Well, I think they're not going to rule out there's a crime and they're not going to rule out an accident until they get the wreckage.

LEMON: But they said, what, April 1st they came out and said, everybody on board, 227 at least, the passengers, were ruled out, but the crew, they weren't so sure. And now they're saying, no one is ruled out. What's the contradiction here?

GREEN: Well, I mean, it sounds like a flip-flop, but it may be just them saying, look, you know, we've looked at them, we didn't find anything but we're not ruling it out. And I don't -- I think it's appropriate not to rule anything out until you know what happened.

LEMON: I've seen you here on CNN a lot. I have not been with you. But we have been covering this day after day after day and we have seen a lot of contradictions coming from the Malaysian government and this appears to be one.

WISE: Right. Right. I mean especially when things come from unnamed sources. There's been all kinds of stuff that's come out. This, it's that, it's the other thing. So it really is hard to make sense of what to really believe then.