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How Did Shoe-Thrower Get Close to Clinton?; Officials Confident About Search for Flight 370 Black Boxes
Aired April 11, 2014 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is top of the hour. I'm Don Lemon, in for Brooke today.
In the hunt to find Flight 370's black boxes, for days, we have heard words like cautious optimism, but, today, Australia's prime minister used the words very confident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: We have very much narrowed down the search area. And we are very confident that the signals that we are detecting are from the black box on MH370.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It has now been five weeks since the plane vanished with 239 people on board; 227 of them were passengers.
Last week, Malaysia's police inspector general made the announcement that all those passengers had been cleared of any suspicious role in the plane's disappearance, yet another flip-flop from Malaysia, its transport minister telling Sky News -- quote -- "Everybody on board remains under suspicion as it stands," a complete turnaround with no real explanation why we were ever told otherwise.
I want to bring in now aviation correspondent Rene Marsh.
Rene, what else did we learn from the man who has really been the face of Malaysia's investigation?
RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he has been the face of it. He has been the man to lead the majority of the press briefings, as he's answered many of the questions from the press.
In this interview with Sky News, he admits Malaysian authorities, they have made mistakes. We know that we're talking about the country's transport minister. He says handling an unprecedented event involving so many countries is, in a word, complicated. Take listen to. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HISHAMMUDDIN HUSSEIN, MALAYSIAN TRANSPORT MINISTER: There are cultural differences. There are times when we are lost in translation. And we are learning through this process. And basically I'm not saying that we must -- handled it perfectly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARSH: All right.
Well, as for the criminal investigation, as you mentioned there, Don, mixed messages are coming from Malaysia. In the beginning, if you remember, beginning of April, the Malaysian police chief said this about the investigation and who they were specifically focusing on and who they were not. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KHALID ABU BAKAR, INSPECTOR GENERAL, ROYAL MALAYSIAN POLICE: As we have said earlier, only the passengers have been cleared. The rest? No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARSH: All right, so we do know of that that man there, the police chief there in Malaysia, they said that they were still looking at the flight crew, the ground crew and even the people who prepared the onboard meals.
But you heard right there he said the passengers were cleared. But Malaysia's transport minister contradicts that in this Sky News interview, saying -- quote -- "Everyone on board remains under suspicion as it stands."
He made a similar comment a few days after the police chief made that comment about the passengers being cleared. The transport minister is suggesting there may be more details we don't know about. He said -- quote -- "The whole passenger manifest, the FBI looked at the simulator. That will all come out later. I find it difficult to say more without jeopardizing the investigation."
He goes on to say the truth will prevail. Now, we haven't heard any word, Don, of any red flags being raised after reviewing the passenger manifest or the flight simulator, so it's really unclear what he's referencing there.
LEMON: And, Rene, as for the search, we heard Australia's prime minister say he is confident they are hearing the sound of the plane's black box, but there was a setback with those pings. Right? What happened?
MARSH: Right. We got so excited yesterday about this possible fifth ping, but turns out now that was not related to the black boxes belonging to Flight 370.
So, as it stands right now, over the past week, four pings have been detected. That fifth one was not from the black boxes. But you just mentioned it there, prime minister of Australia very confident, saying that the four pings that they did detect, believe that they are from the black boxes. And he even went a little bit further, saying that he believes they kind of know the location within kilometers, so giving a lot of confidence as we move forward and continue to listen in for those pings.
LEMON: All right, Rene Marsh, thank you very much.
I want to bring in our experts to weigh in here. With me now is aviation correspondent Richard Quest and Michael Kay, a CNN aviation analyst, pilot, and former adviser to the British Defense Ministry.
Michael, to you first. The Malaysian government is now saying everyone is a suspect. What do you make of the statement happening nearly 10 days after the country's top police official said otherwise?
MICHAEL KAY, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, Don, there are so many facets to this investigation that I think What we are suffering from is an overlap of perceptions.
If we look at what Malaysia are doing at the moment, they declared an independent investigator in charge. And underneath them come five countries, the U.S., the U.K., France, Australia and China. And they're all responsible for in some way contributing towards this investigation. And that involves airworthiness, operations.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: These are both coming from the Malaysians. Both these statements are coming from Malaysians, contradictory statements.
So...
KAY: There are, but we must separate that from what Tony Abbott is saying and what he is commenting upon in terms of the search area.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Two different things. We're talking about the search. That's a search. This is information, this is the investigation from the Malaysian transport minister and from the Malaysian police. It has nothing to do with the search. They are just simply saying, in the investigation, all passengers are ruled out and then they are saying, OK, no, everybody is ruled in.
That's two contradictory statements. One has nothing to do with the search. It's just the investigation.
KAY: No, there are. There are contradictions going on. But let's rewind to the conversation we were having last night about the credibility of what Tony Abbott was about to say in front of the Chinese. It all melds into one. And what I'm saying is, is that what Malaysia is doing at the moment in terms of the contradictions they're making shouldn't be superimposed on the search area that is going on down south and what Tony Abbott is saying.
They should be kept separately. Yes, there are contradictions, I agree, but we shouldn't be painting the entire process with contradictions when we look at the good work Australia is doing.
LEMON: No, I'm not. I'm not. I understand.
I'm trying to separate the search from the investigation here.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And I'm strictly talking about the investigation. If I misworded my question, I'm sorry, but I'm talking about the investigation here and what the Malaysian officials are saying. We will get to the search later.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I do.
And as Rene has elegantly and eloquently pointed out, one person said one thing and another person said another 10 days later. And if that was the first time I had ever seen anything like that happen, I would be -- I would be lying.
It happens every time. It shouldn't. It's clumsy. You are left wondering rightly, you're left wondering, are the passengers under investigation or not? He actually said only the passengers have been cleared. He didn't sort of say -- I can balance this on the head of the pin. He didn't say all the passengers have been cleared.
He didn't say all 227. It's irrelevant. It's parsing words. They both said different things, but here's the difference. I'm not too concerned about it, because the investigation will continue to take its own steady pace and it will carry on.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mike.
KAY: Yes, and I agree with what Richard is saying. But again we're going back to that phase three bit. We're going to back to the why bit.
Let's concentrate on the where bit, the phase one. Let's understand where the airplane is. Let's get hold of the black boxes. Let's understand what happened to the airplane and then all of this other information will hopefully fall into place in providing a bigger picture on that jigsaw.
LEMON: Michael, here is what Reuters is reporting. They're saying the Malaysian government is now investigating what may have been done wrong, trying to identify the track, the flight -- track the flight right after it went missing. This is along the lines of what you're talking about.
Can we believe what the Malaysian government is saying at this point, when there have been so many contradictions?
KAY: I think, you know, it's building up confidence. And confidence is being shattered in what Malaysia are doing in terms of the way they're conducting their investigation, it's like crying wolf now. And so again I think taking it with a pinch of salt probably isn't what we should be doing, but we should be very cautious about what the Malaysians are saying and using all the other evidence to corroborate what they're saying. What we mean is that is where the search area is. Let's backtrack. Let's look at the distance to the South China Sea.
Could it actually have made it into the search area? Would it have had enough fuel? What does that mean in terms of altitudes and speeds, corroborating with Inmarsat sat analysis and so on and so forth?
LEMON: You are still not convinced that it is where they're saying it is?
KAY: I would like -- because of this lack of confidence, I would like to see more evidence that corroborates where it is.
QUEST: What I think, this particular investigation is a more serious one that they're looking into, because this goes -- it wouldn't have made any difference to the outcome, but this goes to the heart of what happened after 2:00 in the morning when the plane went missing and what information was known at that time and who was following the plane in real time.
It wouldn't have made a difference to the result. But it does -- important -- so you're with me on this?
LEMON: Yes, it certainly would have made a difference in the result, but it certainly would have made a difference in the searching and looking for the plane.
QUEST: Not necessarily. Not necessarily, because we knew about the western part of the search over the -- pretty much the next day.
The question is -- the fundamental question, and it varies, when did the Malaysian military know, have reason to believe, and then report that the plane had gone...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But you don't think in real time it would have given a better location and probably a better confirmation as to what happened to the plane?
QUEST: If they had put up a dispatched jet -- notice I'm not using the word scrambled -- if they had put up jets to see what was happening, if they had seen the plane going across Peninsula Malaysia, it may not have made any difference.
But the orthodox thing to have done would have been to send up some sort of aircraft to investigate line of sight. Hang on. That plane, we don't know them.
LEMON: OK. I have to go. This is great. I could keep talking about this forever. But thank you very much. Just ahead here on CNN, are we getting closer to the point where crews will give up hope on more pings and begin the underwater search? An expert, ocean expert, gives her opinion coming up.
Plus, how did the woman who threw a shoe at Hillary Clinton get past security? Here why this may have been a major security breach?
Stay right here. This is CNN's special coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
Australia's prime minister says crews are within some kilometers of perhaps finding the black boxes for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, but officials warn there is still a long way to go in the search.
Expedition logistic specialist Christine Dennison is here to talk about the difficult search underwater.
We know that it is very difficult. So, the thing is, even if they know approximately pretty close to where those things are, it is still not an exact science and it could take them quite some time to find it.
CHRISTINE DENNISON, OCEAN EXPLORER AND EXPEDITIONS LOGISTICS EXPERT: No, it is.
And also technology and the Congress we're working with here is good, but it's not that good. It's not fail-proof. We're still in a position where we're trying to deploy this AUV, which is the next stage. And to deploy the AUV is going to still mean a much smaller search grid, a much smaller search area.
LEMON: So, smaller than the area they have now?
DENNISON: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But you said that's the next phase, but that's the next phase. That's only after the pinger battery -- or that battery runs down, because they want to find, they need to find those voice recorders.
(CROSSTALK)
DENNISON: They need to find those voice recorders.
They also need to narrow the search pattern, which again I don't know that we're getting all of the information that they have at hand, but they are going let some time pass until they know two or three days, they have heard no sound.
LEMON: And that -- you're talking about what the -- what do you call them, AUVs?
DENNISON: The AUVs.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That's what they do. They go back and forth kind of mowing the lawn, correct?
DENNISON: Exactly. Exactly.
LEMON: But before we get here, you said it's got to be a lot narrower. How much narrower?
DENNISON: Ideally, you want to have even 10 miles by 10 miles, which is large.
LEMON: Wow.
DENNISON: You would like something smaller so that you can put an AUV down and you can get back the data, because to deploy the AUV to the depth that they need, 4,500 meters, that will take -- the AUV travels at one knot -- I'm sorry -- three knots per hour, so it will take about 90 minutes for it to cover close to 15,000 feet, which is where we're trying to get it to.
So it is going to take some time once it's down at the bottom to do its grid pattern, its search, its data recording. And then they will have to bring the AUV back up. They're going to have to collect the data, take the hard drive out, collect all this, take it back down.
And this could go on for days. And again it's weather-dependent. Ideally, the conditions will be in favor for them, and that they also they might still be narrowing down the search pattern at that point.
LEMON: Right. And they haven't done it yet, because many people may be wondering why don't you use every resource available? But you cannot do it now because they would be essentially working against themselves, because they're trying to listen for the pingers and the AUVs make noise, right, and they can also put off a false signal.
(CROSSTALK)
DENNISON: They can. And they also then have another stage, which would then be the recovery, which requires another -- which is the ROV. And so we're really not there yet.
LEMON: And it's hard to predict just how long before we are there. Right?
(CROSSTALK)
DENNISON: It is. I think it will be the next few days, where they can say to us clearly we don't hear a pinger anymore, but we have a smaller search area.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Why do you think the Australian prime minister is so confident?
DENNISON: Well...
LEMON: Because I had an underwater -- someone who helped with the Titanic and also 447. And just he was just flummoxed by it. He's like, I don't know how he can even say that statement.
DENNISON: Well, I agree that he is, I think, being a little bold on that, but I do think he has more information than we do.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Thank you, Christine.
DENNISON: Thank you.
LEMON: Always a pleasure.
Coming up here on CNN, we're focusing on the Malaysian government's response to the disappearance of Flight 370, from conflicting information to mistakes, what they got right and what they got wrong.
And next, did you see this? A former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, dodges a shoe. She brushed it off with a joke, but this could point to some very serious security issues. I'm going to discuss it with a former Secret Service agent next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Obama today named his pick to replace Kathleen Sebelius as health and human services secretary. Mr. Obama says he will nominate his current budget director, Sylvia Mathews Burwell. If confirmed by the Senate, Burwell will take over an agency that has taken heavy flak for its rollout of the Obamacare Web site.
Who can forget the glitches that kept people from signing up for health insurance for weeks? Certainly not Sebelius, who announced today that she is resigning.
She encountered an error, a sort of personal 404 page not found, as she spoke of the people who contacted her to say thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Their stories are so heartening about finally feeling secure and knowing they can take care of themselves and their families. Unfortunately, a page is missing.
(LAUGHTER)
SEBELIUS: So I am just grateful for having had this wonderful opportunity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I have been there when there is no teleprompter. So, we will just talk.
President Obama praised Sebelius today, saying he will miss her advice, her friendship, and her wit.
You know, this moment that you're about to see has been treated as a lighthearted moment, but there are some serious security concerns and questions about how a protester got into a private event in Las Vegas to throw a shoe at the former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.
I'm going talk to a former Secret Service agent about that in just a moment, but first here is the shoe toss. Here is Mrs. Clinton's reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: What was that, a bat? Was that a bat? Is that somebody throwing something at me? Is this part of Cirque du Soleil?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: My goodness, I didn't know solid waste management was so controversial.
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: Thank goodness she didn't play softball, like I did.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And she did kind of joke it off. And many people question her reaction time. But when you're standing on a stage like that, you really can't see past the lights. It's lucky that she even saw it. And so that's probably why her reaction time was so slow. And she couldn't figure it out.
She goes, what was that?
You really can't see it. If you have been there, you understand that.
So we don't know who this woman in Las Vegas was or what she was protesting. The Secret Service took her into custody. The agency tells us she slipped past security.
Evy Poumpouras is here with me. She's a former Secret Service agent an expert on security and threat assessment.
How could someone get past security and get so close to Hillary Clinton to throw a shoe? EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER U.S. SECRET SERVICE AGENT: We need to assess what past security means.
Does it mean she didn't go through the security checkpoint, because there are two security checkpoints, the first being, where's your ticket? Is your name on the list? Are you allowed to come in? That is not Secret Service.
LEMON: That is the event organizers.
POUMPOURAS: That is the event coordinators. That is a host committee.
Then, once they say, OK, this person is invited, then you go through magnetometer. You go through the checkpoints, dogs and all that. And then you are assessed and you are brought in. It's very likely she did go through the second layer of security to enter the facility, but the first layer is the one that failed, where the host committee assesses who is invited and who isn't.
LEMON: But in charge of overall security, that's the responsibility of what, the Secret Service, or the hotel, or what?
POUMPOURAS: It's a combination. It always host committee, it's Secret Service, and it's hotel security. Now, Secret Service oversees everything, but they have to work together. And a lot of it is a compromise. People don't realize. People think Secret Service just comes in and says, everybody, this is what you're going to do, but it's a lot of compromising and a lot of working together.
LEMON: Yes.
You think about a lack of security. OK. Fine, someone probably should have seen her, I don't know, getting up and throwing the shoe. But what are you going to do? Take everyone's shoes?
POUMPOURAS: Well, that's the other point. Are you going to start having people check their shoes in, like they do when we go to the airport? And everyone doesn't like that.
The other thing is, though, keep in mind, her getting and going to the front of the stage, often, a lot of people do get up out of their seats to go to the front of the stage and they take a photo of the person on the stage. That is permitted in certain situations.
But they always keep a buffer. There is usually several to 10 feet between the stage and the people seated at the events for situations like that.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes, but you can fling a shoe. A shoe can go far.
This isn't the first time that the first lady had a shoe thrown at her. I want you to take a look at this. This is her motorcade. It was pelted with shoes and tomatoes. That was during a visit to Egypt back in 2012, when she was the secretary of state then.
Are there any special challenges for a former first lady or for a political servant like that?
POUMPOURAS: There are a lot of challenges. Again, it depends on the personality of the person you're protecting.
Some protectees will say, yes, I will isolate myself. I will keep myself in this bubble to keep myself safe. Usually, they don't want that, because they want what, to be out there, to touch people, to be close to the public, to shake hands.
And herein comes the conflict. Now, with that particular footage that you just showed of the motorcade, that's a flaw in the security plan as far as the motorcade route goes, because you shouldn't be driving through something like that. That's when you do a proper advance, and make sure we're not -- going to avoid these types of streets. And you keep the motorcade routes confidential. You don't put them out there. Sometimes, unfortunately, they are published or leaked.
LEMON: Remember the former President George W. Bush had two. He dodged two shoes.
POUMPOURAS: 2008, two shoes came at them, and he dodged both of them. And he did what Hillary Clinton did. He laughed it off.
LEMON: Well, there it is right there. That was in Baghdad. But he did a good job, yes.
What are you going to do?
POUMPOURAS: Embarrassing moments, unfortunately.
LEMON: And it's good that neither of them got hit.
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
LEMON: Thank you very much, Evy Poumpouras. Appreciate you.
Up next, Malaysia now reportedly investigating its own response to the disappearance of Flight 370, essentially admitting they botched it. Hear what could have been different in that situation, in the first hours in that situation.
Plus, there are four different ways a plane could crash-land into the water, which tells us a lot about where the debris fields could be or the debris could be.
This is CNN's special coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
