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New Update in the Search for Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight 370; Rising Tensions and Violence Today in Eastern Ukraine; Contradictory Statements of Malaysian Police; Side Scan Sonar Devices Used in Search for Flight 370; Passengers' Families Frustration with Malaysian Government; Bluefin Underwater Scanners

Aired April 12, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto, in today for Don Lemon.

The people searching for Malaysia airlines flight 370 have to make a very critical decision very soon. And that's when to turn off the ears and start looking with their eyes. I'm talking about the pingers, those emergency beacons believed to be at the bottom of the Indian Ocean. If the batteries are not dead already it will be soon. And a high-tech imaging sonar is the next tool to start running when commanders decide on stop listening for the pings. It has been four day since any sound was heard from the depth of the ocean in those search areas.

Now Australia's prime minister told reporters today his confidence still remains high. Despite the many challenges, Tony Abbott described the multinational mission as quote "a massive, massive task."

No search planes are flying yet. It is before dawn in that part of the world. But the crews onboard ships have been working around the clock. Slowly and methodically pulling a beacon locator through the water about 1,500 miles off the western coast of Australia.

We are going to go straight to Perth now where CNN's Michael Holmes is.

Michael, so it has been four days, Tuesday was the last day that any pings were heard. And we have heard the Australian prime minister express confidence, optimism about the search. The searchers that you meet with there, do they have that same optimism.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, they do, Jim. I mean, they know that they are tasked with a very difficult mission. And they go out every day and can you imagine going out and just scanning the ocean endlessly from aircraft onboard the various ships as well. It is a thankless task. But they are taking it seriously.

And the ones we have interviewed have all said that they are going to continue with the same enthusiasm for trying to find a resolution to this tragedy that they have throughout.

You mentioned Tony Abbott there, the Australian prime minister, he is fairly cautious man normally. And for him to say that he still has optimism they will find the black boxes is quite telling. And of course, it follows on from retired air chief marshal Angus Houston who is heading up this effort and also said that he was optimistic wreckage would be found.

On another note, Tony Abbott, the prime minister also said to the families of the victims that they would be welcomed to come to Australia if they wanted to and would be greeted with open arms. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: We would welcome whenever they wish families of the victims to come to Australia and they will find themselves in the arms of a welcoming friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And the state government here, west Australian government, are talking to contacts there. They say they are already drawing up plans for a memorial service if and when records are found and those families do arrive.

You make a good point there, Jim, that these pingers, if they are indeed the pingers and everybody thinks they are from the black boxes, they are well past their use-by date, if you like, 30 days, they are meant to lasts. But they are going to continue from for at least a few more days to listen for more pins so they can triangulate and reduce what's still a very large search area. And then that Bluefin submersible will go down and try to map the bottom and see what it can find.

But it is a huge task. It is a very big ocean. And you know, will is always a chance that -- they are not going to actually lay eyes on anything which is a bit depressing for those waiting for some sort of positive outcome, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. That's a big next transition from listening to the pings to looking in effect with the sonar at the bottom of the ocean.

Thanks very much to Michael Holmes joining us from Perth, Australia.

I want to bring in now our panel. We have CNN aviation analyst and pilot Miles O'Brien, aviation consultant and commercial pilot himself, Ken Christensen, CNN aviation analyst, former NTSB inspector general Mary Schiavo, and sonar expert Arnold Carr.

Carr, I wonder if I could start with you. You know, as daylight returns to the search area, this hour, you expressed confidence when we spoken earlier in the last hour about these pings they have heard being a good sign as to coming from these black boxes and possibly leading us closer there. Would you do anything differently in the search now as it has been going forward?

ARNOLD, CARR, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN UNDERWATER SEARCH AND SURVEY: Not at this point. I think the temper is going right -- the one thing that's, I think, very inning is that Ocean Shields right on top of where the signals were coming from so there's some information this has been previously discussed, is information there that makes you wonder how had got there. Because really, the old needle in the haystack, there it is. The haystack thing, the whole Indian Ocean, the needle being that one point, and they are -- they are doing it correctly.

SCIUTTO: I wonder if I could ask you, Miles. And so, the haystack has gotten smaller. But assuming, as Arnold says, they were on top of it or close to on top of it, really narrows the search area. How much -- you know, we have been talking about -- I feel like it is another country or state every week. But Arizona, you know, New Mexico. It is a big chunk of land. I mean, estimated how much small wore the search area be based on the data we have.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it is getting smaller but it is still too big. That's the best way to describe it. And you know, these devices that ping out that sonar moves so slowly that you want to try to hone it down best you can. But you know, I think that we are going on have to live with the space needle. I'm going to guess these pingers have given up their last ping.

SCIUTTO: Yes. That's a sobering thought.

Mary, I wonder if I can bring you in. (INAUDIBLE) remind our viewers, you have run investigations of many crashes before. This is a really investigation unlike any other. But people want resolution. The families certainly do. Malaysian officials, government officials, the airlines and our viewers, let's manage expectations here.

Even with this data that we have now, how long do you think it is before they locate possibly wreckage and begin to understand what brought this flight down? We are talking months, weeks, longer?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Or both. You know, based on past accident investigations, you know, sometimes they are fortunate. Sometimes they have really good data. Really good maps. Yet another, you know, reason to all study our map, I guess. Because in some cases when they go down they are literally right on top of it. There was one case they got it in two days. There was another case it was many months. And of course, everybody remembers Air France. But there, they had lots of intervening causes.

So the best that anyone can say they are on top of it, you know, maybe a few days. If not and they have to search all up and down the possible paths, think of 17 miles at this point, that's a long time. They will be looking at weeks to months.

SCIUTTO: Yes, no question. I think it is. Remember an Air France, the pinger was not working. And in that case, here, you do at least have some data.

Ken, I wonder if could you explain just the urgency here. You are a pilot, right? I mean, one of the key driving forces here you need to know what brought that plane down because if it is mechanical, t cetera, you know, you are going to want to correct that, right, so it doesn't happen again.

KEN CHRISTENSEN, AVIATION CONSULTANT: As I land border, (ph) because it is over 990 777s out there flying in the fleet right now. So, I'm sure Boeing wants to know. Was it a mechanical error on the aircraft that brought had down? Was it not? If so, then -- is there an inspection that needs to be done?

As the airplane is approaching possibly 20-years-old now, as far as the fleet from when the first one was flying until now. And so, when you -- what -- (INAUDIBLE) in to the mix, is when an airplane is approaching 30 years, the aging of aircraft and wiring and whatnot needs to be inspected. And the first aircraft that came to light was the TWA flight 800 and 747.

Why did that happen was earlier, the airplanes were obsolete before they got to a 30-year life. So the two airplanes that flew 30 years, one was a 747. The other one was 727. And now 737. And 777 I think is going to also be in that mode because it is a very successful aircraft.

SCIUTTO: Interesting. So, that's a point the life of the airplane had becomes very key. Maybe developing problems they weren't aware about before. That's another reason why great urgency to figure out what happened here.

Thanks very much for Miles, Ken, Mary Schiavo and Arnold Carr. Thanks for joining us.

So, where is the debris? Is it possible the jet is sitting under the water intact? We are going to discuss that possibility right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Australia's prime minister is confident searchers are looking in the right area for flight 370's black box. But how can there be not a single trace of debris from the plane? Finding wreckage from the plane is not only depends on where it may have crashed, but also how it hit the water.

CNN's Gary Tuchman explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not a speck of wreckage has been found from Malaysia's airlines flight 370, raising the question. is it possible all the wreckage sank?

JIM TILMON, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: The chances of not having debris, very, very remote.

TUCHMAN: Experts say the amount of debris on top of the water would vary based on the scenario of how it went down. For example, if it went down in a steep dive at high speeds. That's what happened to an Alaska airlines jet that plunge into the pacific off the coast of California in 2000, killing everyone aboard. Much of the wreckage sank but not all of it.

SCHIAVO: The wings were torn off, large parts of the fuselage were torn apart. And it was a very large debris field. And the debris field was fairly scattered and even weeks later parts and pieces and personal effects were still being combed from the ocean including by fishermen.

TUCHMAN: What if there was a catastrophe in the plane's last few seconds? Were it exploded in the air before crashing? That's what happened with TWA flight 800 off the coast of Long Island in 1996 and Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1998.

SCHIAVO: In a case of an explosion in the air, debris field is not scattered in terms of feet or hundreds of feet. It is miles. In Lockerbie, Scotland, it was scattered over many, many miles. Some pieces found as far away as 10 or so miles at least. In the case of TWA 800 the same thing, debris field was very, very wide.

TUCHMAN: There is this scenario. A hijacking of an Ethiopian Airlines flight in 1996. In that case, the pilots ran out of gas during the hijacking and were forced to make an intention am landing in the Indian Ocean. Even that kind of landing would result in significant debris above the water.

TILMON: Remember, water fight concretes. So you hit it hard enough and it just destroys the airplane's integrity. And you are going to have pieces that are going to be there and open up things like compartments and sections of the airplane that have items that will float.

TUCHMAN: Indeed that sentiment is widely agreed upon by experts.

Here at the accident lab at the University of Southern California's aviation safety program, the director says crashes on the water will almost certainly leave floating debris. The lingering question, how far away will it float?

The best-case scenario for the Malaysia's airline's plane would be the type of landing made by U.S. Airways pilot, Captain Sully Sullenberger on the Hudson River in New York City. But that is by far the most unlikely scenario.

TILMON: Sully did an incredible job of flying. But he landed on a river. And the river is pretty relaxed, to say, by comparison with an ocean where you have swells of 10, 12, 16 feet. And it is pretty difficult to make that kind of landing on water.

TUCHMAN: The search, of course, continues for the wreckage. The landing scenarios just mentioned all part of the investigation.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage on the hunt for flight 370.

And I want to bring our panel back. We have got Miles and Ken here with me. Mary Schiavo and Arnold Carr joining via Satellite.

Miles, I wonder if I can begin with you because you talked about the conditions that morning when the plane disappeared. That the ocean was calm and that -- it is conceivable -- again, we are talking about theories here, right? But it is conceivable that the plane might have been able to land. If not fully intact more intact than some assumed.

O'BRIEN: Yes. You know, I mean, a skilled pilot might have been able to pull that off. I looked at the sea that morning. It was a pretty docile day. The weather pattern was clear. The winds were light. And the sea state was pretty manageable.

Now, it wasn't like glass on the Hudson River which Sully Sullenberger had the good fortune to have. But nonetheless, you know, one of the things that pilots train for is this idea of how you would ditch. You know, you either go parallel to the swells or at the very least you go on the back end. You never fly into a swell. So, you know, and was it possible it is a hearty aircraft and -- certainly might have broken up but could have broken up in a very isolated place.

SCIUTTO: And relevance to that is it could explain one of the mystery so far right, which is that you found the pinger but haven't found floating debris. It could explain that. Granted it has been 36-some odd days, 37 days. So the debris could be anywhere at this point.

Mary, I wonder, again, you know, with the number of investigations you have run at this point, does that sound like a possibility to you, it would explain why they heard pings but not found any floating wreckage despite, you know, flying planes, searching for a number of weeks now?

SCHIAVO: Sure. That's a possibility. Then remember, too, in the Sullenberger styles landing on the Hudson, there were ferry boats and other ships in the vicinity. And they got lines on that plane in a hurry to keep it from sinking. So not only did they make a landing there, they had help. So, if it did make a landing, a water landing, it would probably not stay afloat very long. Maybe it would break up some and in the sinking process, but it is possible.

SCIUTTO: OK. Possible.

Arnold, I wonder if I could bring you in because again, we are talking about the next stage of this. Assuming that the batteries have died and you are not listening anymore. You are looking, in effect, at that sonar equipment, the Bluefin. Can you describe the challenges that would come with doing a sonar scan of this, you know, ocean at this depth in these conditions?

CARR: The depth is just astronomical and an extremely serious problem. The one thing, though, is the -- in the key is trying to make the area as small as possible. I think the Australians and the Navy have done that fairly well. But remember this. I mean, you are talking about 17 miles. Maybe the distance between some of the pings that they heard, just to do 100 square miles. That's only 10 by 10 in mileage. It could take not only possibly a month or two but well into maybe six months to use sonar and effectively cover the bottom.

There is one other thing, though. And that is that they will, you know, prioritize some areas within the area so that they will become more effective. But on air France, they -- did originally look in the wrong area. The calculations were a little wrong and they corrected that. Hence, they found it.

SCIUTTO: You know, Ken, as you look at this each positive development brings a new challenge, doesn't it, right? Because assuming you had the pings and then you have to sort of triangulate those pings. And as soon as you find the wreckage say, which is we are a long way from there, then it is about recovery. Getting something off the bottom of the ocean. I mean, that in itself is a challenge.

CHRISTENSEN: Right. And this is about 2,000 feet deeper than the recovery on the Air France crash. But that same submersible that they had with mechanically articulately and next the cut through the aluminum of the aircraft, and extract the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder. Those are the two key things that they look for.

SCIUTTO: And that's a great point, right? Because it is not necessarily the -- that recorder is not just be sitting there to be plucked. It may be buried under something and you have to cut through -- difficult work to do with that depth as well, right?

CHRISTENSEN: That's correct. Some of the other things, they will do an initial look on the search on the bottom of the ocean floor. That's where the aircraft is, and they are going to look at the engines, they are going to see if there is rotation on the engine. Was there power on the engine? You will see that. There will be -- look like a sickle at the end of the large pans and first-stage fans. And that would tell you if had you power on the aircraft or if it did truly fly until the fuel starvation.

SCIUTTO: And again, which is still an open question, you know. Was it under control at that point or have it? Did it sort of fly Payne Stuart (ph) style and then just kind of disappear.

All right, thanks very much to Miles, Ken, Mary Schiavo and Arnold Carr as well.

There are breaking developments in Ukraine. We will be live in Washington right after this break with the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We will get right back to continuing coverage of the hunt for flight 370 in a few minutes.

First though, we have some breaking news to tell you about.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

SCIUTTO: The breaking news involves Ukraine. Rising tensions and more violence today in the eastern part of the country. In (INAUDIBLE), police exchanged gunfire with pro-Russian activists. About 20 men wearing matching military fatigues took control of the city's police headquarters. And just about 70 miles away gunmen stormed two buildings including one belonging to police. Three officers were hurt there. The White House immediately responding to today's developments and we have Erin McPike here to tell us the latest.

Clearly, some real concern in the White House.

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN GENERAL ASSIGNMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly. And the White House announced just within the last hour that vice president Biden will travel to Kiev in Ukraine to meet with the leaders there as had try to porridge ahead with the new government and with elections that are on May 25th. And that was just also just hours after they put out a statement from the national Security Council, the spokesman saying we are very concerned by the concerted campaign we saw under way in eastern Ukraine today by pro-Russian separatists. Apparently with support Russia, who are inciting violence and sabotage and seeking to undermine and destabilized the Ukrainian state. We call on President Putin and his government to cease all efforts to destabilize Ukraine and caution against further military intervention.

And they also essentially compared to it what they saw in Crimea with the purported annexation there.

SCIUTTO: So, they are clearly placing blame on Russia now. Shuttle diplomacy continues, you also have Kerry going to Europe?

MCPIKE: Secretary of state John Kerry will go to Geneva on Thursday to meet with Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov. And so, leaders -- they are talking about a diplomatic solution, but obviously, we have been seeing on the past two months that that has not work.

SCIUTTO: And he talked to Lavrov before, Kerry, and no change to Russian policy it seems.

Thanks very much, Erin McPike, giving us all the latest from the White House.

Now defense secretary Chuck Hagel says if Russia's actions in Ukraine will have long-term consequences for Russia. Hagel told me when I spoke to him in Beijing earlier this week that sanctions and isolation will seriously hurt Russia down the line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: What's the U.S. going do now as it is clear that strategy so far isn't working? It is not deterring Putin as intended.

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Jim, let's be clear what NATO is and what is not. Ukraine is not a member of NATO. There are 28 members of NATO. We each, all 28 members, abide by are committed to article 5 of the NATO treaty. That is to come to each other's rescue and defend each other's sovereignty and integrity and its territory. It is a defensive institution. Now, Ukraine is outside that. It is a not a member of NATO so we don't have the same obligations. But what we have said in all the European Union nations has said, all of the NATO members have said that Russia is clearly had violations of the integrity, sovereignty of an independent nation, Ukraine. We will not -- we will not accept that. The invasion in Crimea, we have taken action in concert with our European allies or NATO allies, economic sanctions. We have taken diplomatic initiatives that we may take more. We said that. We are looking at all kinds of additional options within NATO and European Union.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So far the U.S. and its western allies have boosted the number of jet fighters patrolling the region and to spend it all military cooperation with Russia.

In other news, Tuesday marks one we are since the Boston marathon bombing. Members of a group called one run for Boston are making their mark on New York City.

The group left stand Monica, California, March 16th with members running different legs of the journey across the country. They are raising money for the victims of last year's Boston marathon bombing and their continued medical care.

On Friday the couple dozen runners visited the September 11th memorial as well joined by a few New York fire fighters running for a comrade killed in New York last month.

One run finally comes home to Boston tomorrow after more than 3300 miles of running.

Coming up the next steps in the search for the missing plane. Will the search size shrink for its sixth consecutive day. And when will investigators send in the underwater drone to join the towed ping locater?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. For days we've heard words like cautious optimism. But today we are hearing, quote, "confidence" that those signals in the water are most likely from Flight 370's black boxes. We are waiting to find out if officials are once again tightening the search area of Australia's west coast. The previous search area, total of just 16,000 square miles. That's barely a fifth the size a week ago, but still very large. And the listening area, some distance away, is even smaller still. And if you think that means searchers are much closer to finding the black boxes the U.S. Navy agrees with you. The spokesman for the Navy's Seventh Fleet, which is operating the pinger locator on that Australian ship the Ocean Shield telling CNN he says he agrees with the Australian prime minister who seems almost certain that the pings in the water are coming from the flight's black boxes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: We have numerous, numerous transmissions recorded which gives us the high degree of confidence that this is the black box from the missing flight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And it's still a big if Flight 370's black boxes are ever recovered, it is unclear who would control the delicate information inside. So, I want to bring in Joe Johns. He is live in Kuala Lumpur, the capital of Malaysia. Joe, as you know and we reported, Malaysia has taken a fair amount of heat for its handling of the investigation. Do they have the expertise to handle the data and analyze it if and when those black boxes are recovered?

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, it is pretty clear that they do not. And they've said as much. The thing that's interesting here in this country is, again and again, we have heard people using the word unprecedented. And for this country, it is unprecedented while some larger countries -- the United States, the U.K.., Australia, have had to deal with air crashes. For Malaysia it is an entirely new thing.

SCIUTTO: When they talk about that team. Are they already talking about who they would rely on for expertise? So, can we expect that a number of country's analysts take part as they have to this point determining, for instance, the flight path of the plane?

JOHNS: It is anybody's guess. They have not expressed a preference. And it is clear that the U.S., U.K.., Australia, all have the expertise. This country, Malaysia, certainly has approached all of this in a very collaborative way over the last weeks during the search and likely to continue that. They have also tried to bring in China because they are trying to maintain relations with that country and more than half of the individuals who are on the plane come from China, Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right. Thanks very much to Joe Johns. Talking about the next challenges in this investigation. The Malaysian government had other problems as well. For one thing officials keep contradicting themselves. Ten days ago Malaysia's police inspector general said all 227 passengers have been cleared in the investigation. But now they seem to be backtracking. Malaysia's transport minister told Sky News "Everyone onboard remains under suspicion." So, our expert panel is back with us. And Mary, I wonder if I can go to you first again, on this point. So, they cleared the crew. And we know that they looked very closely, including American officials, intelligence officials I talked to, said they looked very closely to the passenger manifest, to the flight crew and found nothing. So why say now that everybody onboard is again under suspicion?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Because they came under a tremendous amount of criticism for saying that they cleared everybody except the two pilots in a week. And I think - and rightly so, persons familiar with investigations said well you can't really do that in a week. You can't do a good job and clear everybody except the pilots. And if you had the pilots in your gunned sights right from the beginning then you are committing some of the cardinal errors of investigation, which is you can't, you know, decide who your suspect is and then make the evidence fit your suspect. That's a good way to get the wrong conclusion. So, I think they are just correcting what they said earlier. And probably trying to save a little face. But, you know, that's kind of -- goes with the territory with the government investigations sometimes.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And it's really not confined to Malaysia in that sense. Miles, I want to go to you. You are hearing from the Australian prime minister now the word -- confident, you know, just beyond cautious optimism. You know, is he putting a brave face on what investigators have learned so far? Searchers have learned or is there real reason for confidence here based on what they know - know from the pings that they've detected?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: You know, I think there's real reason for confidence. I don't think there is any other plausible explanation for what those noises would be. Then, you know, some scientists use this kind of pinking devices, they put them on animals and so forth to track them. If a scientist had left a pinger there that was pinging that way, which would be unusual anyway, and hadn't raised their hand by now to say that it was his or her project, shame on them. So, I'm going to - we are going to assume that that scientist is not in the mix here and these are pingers. My concern with the language that the prime minister uses, is that the families hang on every word that these officials say. And what if this doesn't pan out? And, you know, why don't just lay out the facts and let the facts speak for themselves, and the families can draw their own conclusions. It seems like a better strategy.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, and it's already been a rollercoaster for them. Ken, one of the developments this week was the idea that the plane dipped down as low as 4,000 feet after it made that turn and was sort of winding its way between Malaysia and Indonesia. Does that make any sense to you? What does that lead you in the direction of believing response to some sort of event in the cockpit or a flight under control? How do you read that?

KEN CHRISTENSEN, LIEUTENANT COLONEL, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Jim, anytime you have plane leaves the altitude, and they were - at flight level three five zero, and they wanted descend down ...

SCIUTTO: Three five zero, 35,000.

CHRISTENSEN: 35,000 feet. You are looking at -- is this a rapid depressurization and they want to get it down as rapidly as possible to 10,000 feet? Or inflight fire? And they are coming down to land somewhere? But it is not clear to me when they were at the lower altitude they seem to have climbed back up. Because where this flight terminated it was about 7 1/2 hours of fuel, which is the fuel that they had. The duration of fuel they had. Had they stayed at a lower altitude for a longer time their fuel consumption would be at least 20 percent more.

SCIUTTO: Right.

CHRISTENSEN: And so that flight would only go out about 5 1/2 hours. So they would have - much shorter than where they are searching now.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, and they have changed the search area as they have gotten that flight data. Because it's - it's as you say, it's affected the range. Arnold, I wonder if I can go to you, being the expert you are, on under water searches. It's - you know, we have talked a bit earlier in the broadcast about this next stage of the investigation in the search, rather, where you go from listening for those pingers to looking in effect with the sonar detector. Just describe the challenge of that. Using this Bluefin technology as it is called.

ARNOLD CARR, SONAR EXPERT: Well, the Bluefin autonomous vehicle is approaching max depth where they are looking right now. It is a very capable vehicle that can search like has been said about the speed of somebody walking. So, that's a daunting task even in much shallower water. Say, a thousand meters or less. So, down at that depth, it is even much more. I mean it is just -- a huge problem. The one thing they may want to do, if they don't - aren't able to really make the area even smaller than what they have, is bring in a second vehicle like REMUS 6,000. REMUS 6,000 is very similar to the Bluefin 21. It has a little deeper capability down to 6,000 meters. And it was one that was used on the Air France location and recovery.

SCIUTTO: And you can see - as you have been speaking there, Arnold, we put up a graphic that shows kind of the mowing the lawn. I think Miles described it that way. Of the scanner how it works. Very slow. Mary, the obvious question, when you look at something like this, why don't we have a half a dozen of these Bluefins sonic - sonar? Equipment down there right now. To make the process that much quicker.

Mary, can you hear me there?

SCHIAVO: It was that - was that for me?

SCIUTTO: That's for you.

SCHIAVO: Yes. Well, the reason -- the reason we don't have a lot down there right now because it would get in the way of the search for the pingers. But when they actually start searching, yes, they could divide the search area up and assign additional robotic vehicles. The Bluefin and others, to different areas. They have to. On a good day they can cover about 40 square miles with the Bluefin. But if they put more down they can do it faster, but they can't put them down there with the search for the pingers. That's mutually exclusive because they get in the way.

SCIUTTO: I see. But in the next step, conceivably, you could put more resources down there to shorten up the search time.

SCHIAVO: That's right.

SCIUTTO: All right. OK. Fair enough. Well, thanks very much, the panel. As always, Miles, Ken Arnold and Mary Schiavo joining us. It could be the way search crews find those black boxes. Next, we will show you exactly how this Bluefin 21 scan - side scan sonar works in action.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: And anytime a piece of debris from Flight 370 could be found and the autonomous underwater vehicle, the Bluefin 21, could be launched. It has accurate sonar and a camera for mapping the ocean floor. CNN's Rosa Flores went to see the Bluefin in action.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(PEOPLE SHOUTING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Frustration with the Malaysian government started early on. Beginning with the flight plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Malaysia talked nonsense and lied, which delayed the search and rescue for eight days. We want an explanation for this.

KAYE: It was the satellite company, not the Malaysian government, which figured out the flight plan and provided vital information to narrow the search area. But despite that information, Malaysian authorities kept directing some searches in the complete opposite direction. Including the coast of Vietnam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Until we get - - located MH-370, search and rescue (INAUDIBLE) will continue in both corridors.

KAYE: Those searches taxed limited resources and the clock was ticking every second on the plane's black boxes. Eventually they did abandon the search in the northern corridor and focused solely on the southern Indian Ocean, but valuable time was lost.

Also in early March U.S. investigators determined the plane had flown for hours after its last communication. Based on satellite data from systems onboard. The Malaysian reaction? They denied it. But only days later the Malaysian prime minister told reporters the plane had indeed flown for about seven hours after that last communication.

And what about the last words from the cockpit?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the pilot com - or the pilot communication, I understand according to the record, it was about 1:19.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1:19, there we got the last transmission from the cockpit that says "All right, good night."

KAYE: Not exactly. They got that wrong, too. Admitting later on it was actually "Good night Malaysian 370." A mistake that, quite frankly, is hard to fathom. Since they had the transcript of air traffic control's communication with the cockpit. Not only was that incorrect, but so was their original statement about who said it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Initial investigation indicated it was the co- pilot who - who basically spoke the last time (INAUDIBLE) KAYE: Now sources tell us it was the captain. More than a month of dubious information and denials and still no airplane. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCUITTO: That was obviously not Rosa Flores on the Bluefin-21 side scan sonar. That was Randi Kaye talking about the Malaysian government's missteps so far in the investigation in the Flight 370. But please stay with us because after this break we are going to come back live with Rosa Flores and her closer look at the side scan sonar and the next stage in the hunt for the wreckage of Flight 370.

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. The Bluefin - 21, we've heard a lot about this underwater scanner over the past week or so. But what is it exactly? Well, it's an autonomous underwater vehicle that has accurate sonar and a camera for mapping the ocean floor. CNN's Rosa Flores give us a closer look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Four times investigators have heard pings that are consistent with the signals coming from the missing jet's data recorders.

ANGUS HOUSTON, JOINT AGENCY COORDINATION CENTRE CHIEF: I believe we are searching in the right area, but we need to visually identify aircraft wreckage.

FLORES: That's where this probe comes in. It was sent to the Indian Ocean to scour the ocean floor. It's called an AUV, an autonomous underwater vehicle. And it uses side scan sonar, you can see it right here, to create that picture. It's also equipped with a GPS system. You can see it right over here. And, of course, that lets the crew know where this probe is at any point in time. It has been used before to identify and help recover plane wreckage. It would be able to narrow the debris field. For demonstration purposes, it's tethered. That would not be the case, of course, in the Indian Ocean. Once this launches on to the water you're going to see, it kind of floats, it's buoyant.

CHRIS MOORE, PHOENIX INTERNATIONAL: Our particular AUV has about a 20-hour endurance. To get down to a depth of 4,500 meters it takes about two hours.

FLORES: This is an AUV made by Bluefin robotics as it searches underwater. It's the same AUV that is in the Indian Ocean ready to dive more than 14,000 feet in search of the missing 777.

This animation shows how it moves along the ocean floor. As if it were mowing a lawn, creating a map of potential plane debris. The AUV is also equipped with a still camera, essential to the search.

PAUL NELSON, PHOENIX INTERNATIONAL: So once we get a debris field, we'll have the AUV run a pattern over the debris field with photographs, and that will pretty much identify the airplane for sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you getting a signal on the AUV beacons as well?

FLORES: If they find Flight 370, this remotely operated vehicle, an ROV, can retrieve the black boxes from the ocean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We put here two cameras here, on pilot monitoring - copilot monitor.

FLORES: The ROV can operate in the deep sea where humans can't and may be the only chance of recovering the flight data recorders and any evidence of what happened to MH-370.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: CNN's Rosa Flores joins me live now. Rosa, one of the most fascinating facts, but also sobering facts we've learned about this is that it moves basically at the pace of a person walking. That's very slow, obviously, in light of the scale we're talking about. How long would it take for this to create a map of the area, of the search area here?

FLORES: You're absolutely right. This is fascinating, because as we talk about these vehicles, they almost seem incredible, because it's fascinating technology, but they do have their limitations, and that is one of them. Time. They have a battery pack that lasts about 20 hours. So these missions are about 20 hours long, and then, like Jim said, they travel between two to 4.5 knots, so it's not very fast. Once they come back, Jim, it takes about six hours to process the data, and then they start getting maps. But that's when humans start interpreting those maps, taking the look at what is there, what has been mapped in the ocean floor, they are looking for oddities, anything that looks like airplane wreckage. And then they can send this device out there again to get a closer look. Like we mentioned, it's also equipped with a still camera. So they can program a specific mission. If they find something, so it can go directly to that location and take a still picture. And, Jim, in the case of MH- 370, we're all hoping and the world is hoping that they can find something so we can have some sort of physical evidence. Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. Like you said, like mowing a lawn, but a very big lawn for the Bluefin-21 to mow there. Thanks very much, Rosa Flores in New York.

So, how do we know what to believe coming from the Malaysian government? That discussion will come up right at the top of the hour.

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