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Teen Stowaway Survives Death-Defying Ride; Cyclone Limits Search For Flight 370; Ferry Disaster: 121 Bodies Found, 181 Missing; Ferry Captain Could Face Life In Prison; Biden To Ukraine: U.S. Supports You; New: No Affirmative Action In College Admissions

Aired April 22, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's no room except for right here in this spot and this is where you would have to sit with your knees close to you. The wheel well would close with two tires right here. This is the only place where you could possibly survive. There's nothing stupider in the world to do, but this is where you can do it.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Can you believe that? That's Gary Tuchman reporting so high altitude, low oxygen, a five-hour long flight. This teenager beat some incredible odds if it happened the way we all think it did. Let's talk with our CNN aviation analyst and former U.S. Transportation Department inspector general, Mary Schiavo.

Mary, just looking at Gary Tuchman in that tiny little space and then you have those giant tires, right that go into that space?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Right.

COSTELLO: It just seems impossible to me.

SCHIAVO: It did, to me, too and then on top of that the extreme cold at that high altitude. You know, 60 below zero, 40 to 60 below zero and no oxygen. And it did seem impossible to me. In fact, I doubted at first, I said, no, they must be referring to a cargo hole and not the wheel well. But indeed, the surveillance photo shows it was the wheel well.

COSTELLO: And of course, this isn't the first time someone has tried this, but most people, frankly, are killed.

SCHIAVO: That's right. The FAA keeps track -- it's an odd think to keep track of -- well, actually, it's not, they should keep track of it because you should never, ever do it and it is a violation of the law. There have been approximately 105 attempts, a little more than 80 were fatal. Often what happens is, they're in there, and the gear comes up. But when the gear comes down they often fall out.

There have been many situations where that has tragically occurred. Here, not only do you find the only spot that he'd survive, but managed to stay alive and stay in there when the gear came down for a landing. It's really quite amazing.

COSTELLO: OK, well, let's talk now about why no one noticed this kid doing that. We heard from a resident who lived around that airport who said the fence wasn't high enough. You could throw a blanket over it and someone could easily climb over.

SCHIAVO: Yes, that's a problem for the airport because, you know, especially after September 11th, 2001. Although it was the law before September 2001, you do have to have a perimeter fence that's sufficient and approved by the FAA. That's the catch there. It has to be sufficient to not interfere with the operations of the airport. And most fence, typical, with wires on the top. That's pretty typical.

And they will be reviewing the situation. I find more troubling that they that they have the obligatory cameras as you're supposed to have closer to television camera surveillance, but nobody watching them. So it does no good to have the closed circuit TV cameras if there's no one monitoring what's going on. And that is really, really unacceptable. And fortunately, it exposes a hole that could be closed.

COSTELLO: I was just going to ask you, is it because they're not employing enough TSA agents? Is it because they're just not trained properly or should someone be fired for this?

SCHIAVO: Well, I think somebody probably should be fired, but they won't be. It never seems to work out that way. We saw the same thing, our firm litigated for 11 years, the events of 9/11 for families on the planes. And what we found is often they had the equipment and no one would pay attention. They would stare at the screen and after about 15 minutes they would zone out. In fact, it's a very common phenomena. Even if somebody was assigned to watch the screens often they don't pay attention or look elsewhere or they have something else to do.

Because there are periods of boredom, so they wouldn't be expecting this. You have to have a system where you cycle people on and off the screens and you have to rotate the jobs in security. Fortunately, usually, security jobs are pretty mundane, they aren't real exciting, but when they are, boy, you need them.

COSTELLO: You sure do. Mary Schiavo, thanks for your insight as always.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

A tropical cyclone is now the latest obstacle in the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. The storm has grounded planes and suspended the air search. Today's search rests with the underwater drone, the Bluefin 21. This would be its tenth mission, but so far no trace of that missing plane. And it is now 46 days of searching for and for the families of those aboard this has all settled into kind of a cruel monotony.

CNN's Erin McLaughlin live in Perth, Australia, to tell us more. Hi, Erin.

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. As far as we know that tenth mission still underway, still no signs of the missing plane. Hope maybe fade for this portion of the search, but they're already planning for phase two.

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MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): No end in sight as investigators are now only days away from completing the search in the targeted area and still, no sign of Flight 370. Back in the water this morning, Bluefin-21, after turning up empty scouring two-thirds of the intended seabed so far. The search in the air drastically scaled back due to rain, poor visibility, and heavy seas from Tropical Cyclone Jack. The targeted area six miles in radius.

It represents the best guess as to where the plane may be. If nothing is found, the search area may widen dramatically with more equipment. Investigators say they're in the early stages of talks on long-term search plans, as far out as July. On Monday, Chinese families of those on board Flight 370 arrived at a Beijing hotel expecting a briefing with technical experts from Malaysia. But that meeting was canceled. The families turned away.

STEVE WANG, FAMILY REPRESENTATIVE: Even a small pieces, they haven't found it. So we really doubt the whether it's in the right place or not. We just want to help them check it.

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MCLAUGHLIN: As you heard there, some of the families questioning whether the Bluefin 21 is searching in the right place. They want more data. They want more information. They have too many lingering questions -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Erin McLaughlin reporting live from Perth, Australia this morning. Thank you. Let's bring in our guest now, Rob McCallum is a CNN analyst and specialist in ocean searches. He is in Seattle and in New York, fellow CNN analyst, Michael Kay. He is a retired lieutenant colonel with the British military. Welcome, Gentlemen.

Rob, the targeted area is now two-thirds search. The search in that area is just about over. No trace of the plane. Do you think it really crashed? Are the black boxes down there?

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COSTELLO: Go ahead, Rob.

ROB MCCALLUM, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: We certainly hope so and, you know, any day could be the day. You know, the most important thing at the moment is not to rush. Speed is no longer of the essence. More important is being accurate, being very thorough, being very precise, to be absolutely clear about what areas can be ruled out. And that we don't have to go back to. So they're doing the right thing, deploying every day, maintaining a high level of quality and driving right through towards the end.

COSTELLO: So, Michael, you were going to say, you don't think that this means that those black boxes aren't in that particular area either, right?

MICHAEL KAY, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Absolutely. I think what we need to do, Carol, is we need to separate the above-surface search with the plethora of maritime assets used over the past 47 days from the subsurface because they're very different. The airborne search has been operating at tempos and search tempos that are unsustainable. And they're unsustainable from an air group perspective in terms of the fatigue and the human factor side.

And they're unsustainable from the engineering perspective. So the physicality, of having to service all of the aircraft that's been going for 47 days now and that's unprecedented really in maritime searches. So I think what the air chief has to do he has to regroup and take a reset anyway, just for natural courses and engineering courses, before they then progress.

We only have a specific amount of data. A certain amount of data that has led us to this part of the world. If we rewind back to day one when we were looking the that circle with a 2,500-mile radius, which gave us over 10 million square miles, I think we have to be encouraged by the fact that we've been led to this very specific and small part of the Indian Ocean.

COSTELLO: Right. But the families, I'll ask you this question, Rob, the families say that there must be some information out there that's not being shared to lead searchers to be so sure it's in that smaller area that Michael was talking about.

MCCALLUM: I'm not really one for conspiracy theories, but I think the data that we have got is all fairly consistent in getting us to this place. It is conceivable that there's a piece of evidence or clue if you like that has not been discovered yet. And that's why it's important to keep up that process of analyzing and reanalyzing and even sometimes bringing in a fresh set of eyes to analyze again the data that we do have. But I don't think there's any conspiracy theory here and I think we're in the right place.

COSTELLO: So, Michael, what kind of equipment, new equipment, might be beneficial to more effectively search in deep water?

KAY: Well, Carol, you're sort of talking about the end result, if you like. Where I would really like to go back to re-corroborate and re- analyze the macro-level data that we have from Inmarsat, for example or going back to the Malaysians and really trying to get the Malaysians to be open and honest about what information they have from when the aircraft last disappeared off radar in the South China sea all the way through what we think is its track from Indonesia and Banda Aceh and then south. For me that is important thing is actually re-corroborating the evidence to make sure we're looking in the right area in the first place. And once we have that, taking a fresh look at other contractors and other technologies out there that might be able to assist with the underwater search.

And I'd like to go back to the macro level data just to make sure and as you point out to the families to reassure that we're looking in the right area and that we can actually rule out this rhetoric in the north going to Pakistan and so on and so forth.

COSTELLO: And Rob, I think Michael is right. Sometimes a pair of fresh eyes you notice things that you don't know this before especially since the first were under so much pressure.

KAY: Yes, absolutely, Carol and if you actually look at -- sorry.

COSTELLO: Go ahead, Rob.

MCCALLUM: That's particularly true for underwater data. When you receive sonar data, it comes as a waterfall display to the untrained eye. It looks like a black and white TV that's fizzing away and you need somebody to go over that again because the analyst that's looking at it first is looking at it in a hurry. You want to make sure somebody else takes a look at it in a more relaxed setting to make sure nothing is being missed. Then you can rule that area out and concentrate on the next one.

COSTELLO: Rob McCallum, Michael Kay, thanks for your insight this morning. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, two new arrests as divers continue the search inside that sunken ferry boat in South Korea. Will Ripley is there. Hi, Will.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, here in South Korea, they're holding on to a small sliver of hope even as we get more grim news from the search zone.

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COSTELLO: The situation in South Korea is getting even grimmer this morning with family and loved ones hard broken on shore, divers just announcing they found 21 bodies inside that capsized ferry, 181 remain missing. Officials are calling their efforts of a search and rescue operation. CNN's Will Ripley is live in South Korea to tell us more. Hi, Will.

RIPLEY: Hi, Carol. Yes, it's officially a search and rescue operation and it will remain that way until more time passes, more missions are accomplished. Until there are conversations not only with people running the search, but also with the families of the people who are on that ferry. Everybody is very careful right now to call this a search and rescue operation because there's still a theory out there that there could be an air pocket somewhere in this ship. The reason they think that because the ship is basically 20 meters below the surface. The front is up higher than the back of the ship being supported by only a couple of buoys. So some of the Korean Coast Guard officials who we are talking to say even though they don't have any proof, there could be an air pocket in there. They're sending divers in there to look for that.

But sadly they are also going in there to look for other areas, the third and fourth floor specifically, where they searched the lounge. They searched cabins and they have found more bodies even within the last couple of hours. The death toll has continued to rise. One area they haven't yet reached, Carol, that cafeteria on the third floor.

That's where they believe a number of these young people at the time of this disaster many of them trapped in this room with the ship tilting drastically making it difficult to escape. So there's hope, but there also a lot of fear of what they'll find that in cafeteria.

COSTELLO: I understand two more crew members were arrested this morning. Tell us more about that.

RIPLEY: Yes, I total of nine crew members now are arrested, Carol, and some of them were speaking to the press, trying to defend their actions. They were asked specifically why only a couple of lifeboats were deployed when there were so many more on the ferry. Their explanation was simply the ship tilted too drastically making the other lifeboats inoperable.

But when you know some of these crew members made it on to those two lifeboats safely back to shore when so many of the passengers did not there's understandably so much outrage and anger here stretching from the president of South Korea, President Park, some very strong remarks from her. All the way down to the families who are just devastated, sitting here on shore as you said, completely heartbroken.

COSTELLO: Will Ripley reporting live from South Korea.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, strong words from Vice President Joe Biden as he visits Ukraine and makes a new offer of U.S. aid to that country. In essence, Joe Biden saying, we've got your back. We'll be back in a minute.

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COSTELLO: The United States will stand strong with Ukraine, Vice President Joe Biden repeating that pledge today during a meeting in Kiev with top Ukrainian officials. It comes after deadly shootings in the eastern part of that country, which borders Russia and where tensions have escalated in recent weeks. Biden made his remarks in Kiev.

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JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The United States stands with you and is working to support all Ukrainians in seeking a better future. You will not walk this road alone. We will walk it with you.

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COSTELLO: William Taylor was a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine. He's now with the United States Institute of Peace. He joins me now. Welcome.

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Thank you so much for being here. And you just heard Vice President Biden, he supports Ukraine. But the United States also supporting Ukraine in its fight with Crimea, and Crimea is now part of Russia. Is it different this time?

TAYLOR: It is different. And first of all, Crimea is not part of Russia. Crimea is still part of Ukraine, as far as the world is concerned. As far as Russia's concerned that may be as you say. But it is different in that the sentiment in Eastern Ukraine, across Ukraine is now moving away from support for Russia. In Crimea, yes. There's a lot of support for Russia in that part of Ukraine. But that is not the case. It's very different in Eastern Ukraine.

COSTELLO: So what might it look like if the world doesn't recognize Crimea as part of Russia? I mean, what would that look like?

TAYLOR: It would look a lot like parts of Georgia. Where the Russians did the same thing in 2008. They moved in, occupied south and Kaznia (ph). We need to stop that and push back on Mr. Putin as he did the same thing in Crimea that he did on in Georgia.

COSTELLO: OK, so push back on President Putin and Russia. Those 40,000 troops are still amassed at the border. There's nothing in Geneva about those troops and as long as those troops remain, isn't there a continuing danger that Russia will invade at any time?

TAYLOR: There absolutely is and that's why before Geneva and after Geneva, we need to do what the United States government said it was going to do, that is, put additional sanctions on, stronger sanctions, harsher sanctions, harder sanctions on Russian sector of the economy, as well as Russian individuals to make it very clear that is this unacceptable. And they need to back off and it will get worse if they continue to maintain those troops on the border.

COSTELLO: So should these things be done before the May 25th elections in Ukraine?

TAYLOR: Absolutely. They should be done today. Just like last week, but we had to give diplomacy a chance. It was fine, but they haven't changed the situation. Russians are still on the border and Russians are still with 40,000 troops and still stirring up trouble. That needs to change, and until it does, we need to put on hard sanctions.

COSTELLO: So the United States and others aren't caring and around waving a big enough stick, in other words?

TAYLOR: That's correct. Until there is some pain, some cost to Mr. Putin, for doing what he's been doing, starting in Georgia -- Georgia in 2008. But now in Crimea, and now in Eastern Ukraine, he's going to keep going. We need to indicate there's a limit and he's at it. He's beyond the limit.

COSTELLO: Former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, William Taylor. Thanks so much for joining me this morning. I appreciate it.

TAYLOR: Glad to be here.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a surprise ruling from the U.S. Supreme Court on affirmative action. We'll talk about that when we come back.

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COSTELLO: This just into CNN from the U.S. Supreme Court by a vote of 6-2. Justices have upheld a controversial Michigan law. That law bans affirmative action in college admissions. Let's take a closer look and turn to Gloria Brown Marshall, a constitutional law professor and Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University. Welcome to both of you.

First of all, Jonathan, let's start with you. Is this ruling a surprise in any way?

JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY (via telephone): It was not a surprise for me. We actually talked this case in my Supreme Court class and actually the class voted on predicting this outcome. It's a little bit of surprise to see how heavily weighted it is. You know, six to two is quite a hefty ruling in favor of this law.