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South Korea Ferry Captain Not First to Abandon Passengers; Does a Captain Have to Go Down with His Ship; Mt. Everest Sherpa Community Threatens Strike; DNA Tests to Ensure Master Bomb Maker Killed in Yemen.

Aired April 22, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Also new today, the criminal investigation is growing. There are now more arrests to report. A total of nine crew members have been detained. Four of them appearing in court today with heads bowed, faces covered, hats on. They're accused of causing deaths due to abandonment. Tomorrow, at the students' high school, there will be a memorial for those who have died.

But the ferry captain, his actions continue to be the focus of this investigation. He's not the first to be charged with abandoning his passengers here.

CNN's Randi Kaye will take a look at the role of a ship captain, from the acclaimed hero of the "Titanic" to the man at the helm of the "Costa Concordia."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's blamed for the worst maritime disasters of all-time. But to some, Captain B.J. Smith is a hero. He had already turned in for the night aboard the "Titanic" when the crew told him they hit an iceberg. It was April 1912. The "Titanic" was on its maiden voyage. When the ship started to sink off the coast of Canada, Captain Smith ordered the crew to prepare lifeboats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWINA TROUTT, TITANIC SURVIVOR: They gave an order, all passengers put on your life preservers, get up on the deck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Captain Smith ordered women and children be evacuated first and helped save more than 700 people. He was on the bridge as the ship disappeared, lost among the 1,500 people who perished.

Decades later, in 1956, an Italian vessel, the "Andrea Doria," collided with another ship off Nantucket. Captain Pierre Talomae (ph) had made a series of errors in dense fog and heavy traffic. Yet, when it began to sink, the captain tried to make sure all the passengers and crew were evacuated. 46 people died. He wanted to go down with the ship, and pay for his mistakes, but his officers talked him out of it. The captain was the last person off, and never commanded another vessel again.

The tale of another Italian ship ended very differently. In 2012, when the "Costa Concordia" ran aground off the coast of Italy, 32 people died. Captain Francesco got off the ship with hundreds still onboard. He says he fell and tripped into a lifeboat.

Listen as the Coast Guard ordered him to return to his ship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED COAST GUARD OFFICER: Get on board the ship and you tell me how many people are on board and what do they have clear?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain Shantino (ph) is currently on trial. Among the charges he's facing? Abandoning ship with passengers still onboard, manslaughter, and causing maritime disaster.

KAYE: (on camera): We did some checking and found out there isn't any international maritime law that says a captain must stay on a sinking ship. Many countries, like South Korea, have their own law or follow the Safety of Life at Sea Treaty, adopted after the "Titanic" sank. It doesn't require that a captain stay onboard, but it does say the captain is responsible for the vessel and his passengers.

(voice-over): That same treaty also says passengers should be allowed to evacuate within 30 minutes. Remember, the ferry took more than two hours to sink off South Korea. But the passengers were told to stay in place, a warning that may prove to have cost hundreds of lives.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: You just heard Randi explain this. Maritime experts say when Captain Lee jumped the sinking ship, he reneged on some of his key duties. How serious is the concept that the captain go down with the ship?

Here's to help us answer that is Coast Guard commandant and retired admiral, James Loy.

Admiral, welcome.

JAMES LOY, COAST GUARD RETIRED ADMIRAL: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We heard from Randi and she really spelled it out, our correspondent, saying there is no international maritime law mandating a captain go down with his or her ship, though, of course, they have responsibilities. What are those responsibilities?

LOY: Well, fundamentally, I think the -- it comes down to a couple few words. The captain is responsible for the safe navigation of the ship. He's responsible for the safe passage of the crew and passengers, even the cargo onboard. So there's nothing in the law that says the captain has to be the last one off, or go down with the ship, certainly. In fact, we would like to think all the captains can survive these disasters as can their passengers and crew. But the ultimate nature of the responsibility of a captain at sea on a ship is such that his responsibilities are the first things he has is the first thing he has to take responsibility for.

BALDWIN: Within the maritime community, I'm curious if it's unwritten law, or unwritten protocol, that the captain, if something horrendous like this happens, the captain just stays onboard?

LOY: The captain, as I say, is responsible for the safe passage of the crew. So when that crisis occurs, he or she ought to be the last around, so to speak, still directing traffic, if you will, giving the orders, providing the direction to the crew, in that nightmare circumstance that they're dealing with. The bottom line here is, this is as much about preparation on the front end as it is about execution on the back end.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in on that. That's a perfect segway. I want to quote you from your opinion piece. This is what you write, sir: "Collision or grounding or fire at sea is the immediate private hell on earth for a ship's captain and crew. Their actions must be based on their preparation."

But it makes you wonder here, sir, if this captain were prepared, yet compare that to the -- I don't know if you've seen this. This actual captain from this South Korean ferry, he was in a promotional video for this very company promoting safety. What does that sound like to you?

LOY: Well, rhetoric is cheap and behavior counts. At the end of the day, the behavior in this instance, at least until the thorough investigations, which I'm certain will follow, we're still sort of in the phase where we're most focused on the tragedy and the lives of these folks that we perhaps can still save. But at the other end of the day, the long phase is going to be a very thorough investigatory in the aftermath that will bring to light the sequence that was taken through the course of these very difficult days and hours. And the captain's responsibility certainly cannot be met when he's among the first that jumps into the lifeboat and floating safely away while his ship is sinking.

BALDWIN: Mr. Loy, I'm curious, my final question to you, reading more about maritime law when it comes to accidents at sea, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no universal maritime law. South Korea can do their thing. Italy can do another. The United States can do another. Do you think that these laws or protocols, et cetera, should be ubiquitous?

LOY: Ubiquitous is a good goal. That's what the Safety of Life at Sea Convention, which, in fact, is international in scope, all the members that are -- all the member countries to the international maritime organization, which is a subset of the United Nations, do sign up for, dealing with these things constructively when they occur.

But again, I go back to the point where you prevent them from happening by focusing on competence and capability within your crew. And you also practice and train and exercise for these kind of eventualities, so when they do occur, you're able to prosecute your responsibilities according to both traditions of life at sea and, of course, the Safety at Sea, international law.

BALDWIN: As you point out, rhetoric is one thing, behavior is another.

Retired Admiral James Loy, thank you so much.

I encourage all of you to check out his opinion piece on CNN.com. It's called "A Captain Faces a Private Hell in Sea Disaster."

Thank you so much, sir.

Every year, people pay tens of thousands of dollars to climb Mt. Everest. Maybe it's on your bucket list. I'd love to go to Nepal. But this year, the Sherpas are furious, and those trips are all potentially in jeopardy. We'll explain what that means for summiting Mt. Everest.

And later, when a ship capsizes, as we were just discussing, sometimes it's every man, woman and child for themselves. You'll hear a stunning story from a woman who survived the "Costa Concordia" wreck. She said her family almost died six times. Do not miss her story at the top of the next hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Hundreds of climbers try to summit Mt. Everest each and every year, but days after an avalanche, the short climbing season is in jeopardy here, because 13 Sherpas, these guides who are from the Himalayas, they know this mountain, they were killed, and three are still missing after Friday's avalanche. This is now, the single deadliest accident on the world's tallest mountains. Now the Sherpa community is threatening to strike.

For more on this, here is CNN's Amara Walker.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Prayers and music in the Napoli capitol of Katmandu, as families of the Sherpas killed in Friday's avalanche on Mt. Everest mourn the loss of their loved ones.

(SHOUTING)

WALKER: The bodies of 13 local Sherpa guides have been pulled from the snow. Three Sherpas still are missing. The avalanche was the single deadliest accident in the mountain's history.

VERN TEJAS, ALPINE ASCENTS INTERNATIONAL TEAM MEMBER: I believe that this is going to have great effect on the families. They've lost their bread winners, their husbands, their fathers, their sons. And it's going to have very serious effect in the community as well as in the families. A great loss for everyone. WALKER: Just days away from the start of the busiest climbing season, U.S.-based Alpine Ascent International, which lost five Sherpas in the accident, has canceled its expedition. The Discovery Channel planned a live broadcast at the first winged jumpsuit flight off Everest. That's also canceled. Now, it's unclear if anyone will scale the world's highest peak this year. Some Sherpas are calling for the mountain to be closed in respect for the dead. Others are threatening a boycott to protest poor pay.

CHHEDAR SHERPA, NEPALI GUIDE (through translation): At the moment, the view of all Sherpas is we should mourn for Everest. Some climbers will be too afraid to continue their ascents but, for others, they will feel compelled to go on.

CHHRING SHERPA, NEPALI GUIDE (through translation): Some Sherpas are of the opinion that we should return to work. Others, while not being explicit, will feel compelled to return, mainly for the money, because they don't have any other employment.

WALKER: Sherpa guides can make up to $6,000 a year while Nepal's government stands to make about $3 million in royalties if and when climbing resumes.

Those who want to make the ascent now have to decide if the risk is worth the reward.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALKER: Now, before today, many of the Sherpas had been in talks with Nepal's government. They also want a welfare fund for Sherpas who are hurt or killed climbing. They're also asking that the government enact a law that would keep them safer on the mountain. The government had agreed to some of their demands. There's no official word that it appears the Sherpas are abandoning those talks at this point. And now the more than 300 foreign climbers who planned to climb Everest in the coming weeks, they may be out of luck -- Brook?

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the Sherpas specifically. One of those points is, of course, about pay. How much do Sherpas make now, what are they asking for?

WALKER: Brooke, keep in mind, this is an extremely strenuous job.

(CROSSTALK)

WALKER: They're going before the foreign climbers, laying out the path for them. It's also very dangerous. They're risking their lives every day.

The Sherpa guides make up to $6,000 per season, which runs from April to about June. That sounds like a lot when you compare it to the average citizen in Nepal, who makes about $700 a year. But compare these numbers to what the government is making in royalties, about $3 million a season, it doesn't sound like very much. And we should also keep in mind that for a lot of these Sherpas, they are the sole bread winners. It's not just about money, but also about their safety. BALDWIN: I know some of these really experienced hikers, who have been up with the Sherpas, they say that a lot of that money doesn't actually go back to the mountain.

Amara, thank you so much.

WALKER: Sure.

BALDWIN: We'll stay on this story. Because what if the Sherpas stand firm and what if they do shut down and they go on strike and people can't climb and summit Everest this season? I'll talk to a guest coming up here who says a trip to Everest is about much more about reaching the summit. He will explain.

And imagine everything being turned upside down here, onboard a ship like this. When a cruise or a ferry begins to capsize, it is any passenger's worst fear. Ahead, you will hear straight from someone who barely survived that experience on the "Costa Concordia." She says not only does her heart ache for these families with loved ones on that ferry, she is furious. Don't miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: There is a group of people so totally essential if you're planning to climb Mt. Everest. That the Sherpa guides carry gear, cook food, pave the way up to the peak, make sure it's safe before you even begin this trek. After last week's deadly avalanche, they are threatening to strike.

Let's talk about this and the repercussions. On the phone from Laramie, Wyoming, Mark Jenkins, a contributing writer to "National Geographic" and he's been on dozens of climbing expeditions around the world.

Mark, you've been to Everest twice, summited it once. Thank you for calling in. I read your piece in "National Geographic" today, and you write about how the recent Sherpas deaths are already having -- you're words -- immediate repercussions on the business of climbing the world's highest peaks. What are the repercussions already?

MARK JENKINS, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC (voice-over): Well, the Sherpas have presented a 13-point kind of manifesto to the ministry of tourism in Nepal. That's the ministry that actually organizes and executes everything that happens around the Everest region. The 13 points included more compensation if someone dies on an Everest expedition. It also included more money if somebody's injured and also more compensation if someone's disabled permanently. The Nepali government has responded quite quickly, to their credit. They didn't give the Sherpa manifesto everything that was asked for but they did increase the pay benefit from $10,000 to $15,000 for those who die. They agreed to build a memorial for these recent deaths. They agreed to raise the medical insurance for those people who are injured but can't return to work.

BALDWIN: What's your sense? There was a piece -- John Crocker wrote this piece in the "New Yorker" where the Sherpas are really the heart of the mountain, and they've not really been respected financially. And now you're mentioning sort of the responses of the 13-point, you know, manifesto and plan. Do you think that the strike will happen now?

JENKINS: I think we're going to see that choice made by individual Sherpas. I don't think there's a lot of pressure for people to leave, nor is there a lot of pressure for people to stay at base camp. Some of these Sherpas, they want to work. It's not as if they're dragooned onto the mountain. Typically, Sherpa makes about $5,000 or $6,000 in two months. It's very dangerous work. It's very difficult work. Although the average income in Nepal is about $700 a year, so in their own economy, they're well paid. But they also take enormous risks. I think what you'll see on Everest is some of them will decide this isn't worth it, my friends have died recently, perhaps some of them lost family members. It's a very close-knit community in the Sherpa region. Some of them will say, no, I've got to stay here because I want to make the money.

BALDWIN: What about, too, this point -- so the issue with the Sherpas, I would love your perspective on this. Conrad Anker that you quoted in your piece last week, three-time Everest summiteer, he described it to you, "bloated dysfunctional bureaucracy." He said that less than 1 percent of the $3 million in permit fees collected each year go back to the mountain. Is that true?

JENKINS: I think Conrad knows what he's talking about. He spent a lot of time in the Himalayas. He's running the Kimbut (ph) Climbing School, which is trying to train Sherpas so they're better prepared to lead and guide on Everest. I don't know if we know the exact number, but every mountain climber who wants to attempt Everest from the Nepal side pays the government, the ministry of tourism, $10,000. That's a peak fee. If you've got 300 climbers, you've got $3 million. But very little of this can you see in evidence at base camp or up higher on the mountain. It's hard to see where that money paid to the government actually goes. Not enough of it goes back to compensating Sherpas' families, if one of the climbers has died. And certainly not enough goes back to sustaining the environment around Everest.

BALDWIN: Mark Jenkins, shedding some light, writing for "National Geographic" on the issues plaguing this beautiful mountain.

Mark, thank you so much for calling in.

And not many people know -- moving on, not many people know the passengers experiencing this terror onboard this South Korean ferry. Ahead, though, hear from a woman who knows all too well. She barely survived that wreck on the "Costa Concordia." And when she hears about the ferry, she is furious. Her personal story here of survival, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Authorities in Yemen are today beginning to acknowledge they may have a huge prize after reaching operations against al Qaeda. They are now, as we were initially reporting yesterday, carrying out those DNA tests to determine if this man is among the dead from that drone strike. His name, Ibrahim al-al-Asiri. He's the bomb maker possibly responsible for building those underwear bombs. Remember those used in Detroit in 2009 on that plane, among other bombs?

Joining me now, Mohammed Jamjoom.

Mohammed, we know this man has been in hiding for quite a while. This would be huge if they got him.

MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, no two ways about it, Brooke. It would be absolutely massive. Ibrahim al-Asiri is perhaps the most-wanted man in Yemen. The most high-value AQAP target in that country, which is full of high-value AQAP targets. You look at the list of plots that have been hatched in Yemen the past few years that have had such an impact in the region and around the world, like you mentioned, the underwear bombing plot, or the cartridge bomb plot, or even the plot to assassinate the interior minister of Saudi Arabia, Yemen's neighbor to the north, all of those plots have Ibrahim's fingerprints all over them. If he were to have been killed, that would be huge for Yemen's government, for America's counterterrorism efforts.

That all being said, though, even though Yemeni officials I'm speaking with today are more confident and questioning publicly that perhaps they did get him, it's still going to take some time to really make sure that these DNA tests are thorough, and that this is the guy.

What we know now is that there was a fire fight that ensued a couple of nights ago and that they got some militants. Some of them were Saudi. They believe they were high targets. They believe perhaps they've got him and now they're trying to confirm it for sure -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Now waiting for that confirmation.

Mohammed Jamjoom in Washington, D.C., for us.

Mohammed, thank you.