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Malaysia Flight Search Area Could Expand; Captive in Ukraine

Aired April 25, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's begin, shall we? It is Friday. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Count with me now, 50. It has now been 50 days since Flight 370 vanished somewhere in the skies above Malaysia with those 239 people on board. And nearly eight weeks now, no trace of this plane. But searchers are not giving up hope on this Bluefin 21. After 13 trips to the near bottom of the southern Indian Ocean, the sonar scanning drone on loan from the U.S. Navy has, thus far, covered almost all of that little red square, little yellow square right there on the map here. So that is the six mile area drawn around the possible black box pings heard more than two weeks ago.

But CNN has just learned that if this 13th dive comes up empty, they are giving up here. They are giving up here and the search will expand to an area next to this current search zone. It's a daunting prospect considering some experts say this could keep on expanding to the entire southern arc.

For his part, the Malaysian prime minister tells our aviation correspondent Richard Quest in this exclusive interview that, yes, he will release his government's preliminary report on the MH-370 mystery next week. But perspective here, that's little comfort to all those families who aren't really expecting much from that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH BAJC, PARTNER OF MH-370 PASSENGER PHILIP WOOD: This is an elected official who has a legal and moral accountability to protect the interests of the citizens of his country. And, you know, the people on his team are only his tools to use to lead. It is squarely on his shoulders if he has not held his team accountable to doing what they're supposed to do. Actions speak louder than words. The briefings, both in Malaysia and in China, have been a joke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Other family members staging a sit in protest at the Malaysian embassy in Beijing. Chinese police far outnumbering those demonstrators, but as you can see here, they kept their distance.

Let's go to our correspondent, Pamela Brown, who's working this story for us today from Washington.

And, Pamela, if the Bluefin, you know, finally searches the entire, 100 percent of this area with nothing to show for it, what next? PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're right, Brooke. And it's already searched about 95 percent of that area. And we're learning some new details about what the next phase of the search will look like as the Bluefin wraps up scouring that targeted area around the second ping. So a decision has been made to expand its search adjacent -- to areas adjacent to that first 10 kilometer radius. And, Brooke, we know that the ping to the north of the second ping is seen as a promising area. So the expectation is that that area will be a focus as this search expands.

And, by the way, still no mention of whether other submersibles that are currently available for use, we know, will be deployed in the search effort. Something Australian officials are not commenting on right now, but officials have said on the record that they are hammering out a long term game plan for this search.

And also today, Brooke, we've learned that the only submarine involved in the search efforts is being pulled out by the Royal Navy. Officials there basically saying that since there's no longer any prospect of detecting pings from that black box, it no longer makes sense to use the submarine's sonar capabilities.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Pamela Brown for us in Washington. Pamela, thank you so much.

Let's bring in our panel here. Joining me now, Rob McCallum, CNN analyst and ocean search specialist and expedition leader, and Mary Schiavo, CNN aviation analyst and former inspector general at the U.S. Department of Transportation.

So, welcome to both of you.

Talking with the Bluefin here, you know, we have now learned that if this underwater drone, if it comes up empty, it has this final 5 percent of this teeny, tiny dot of this (INAUDIBLE) look at a map, you know, to complete and then the search zone moves next door, Rob, at this point, would you recommend a clean slate, walk away, fresh eyes, maybe bring in other experts, that kind of strategy? Would that be advantageous here?

ROB MCCALLUM, CNN ANALYST: Yes, it would, and I think that's actually in process at the moment. But it is, you know, going to investigate the other pinger locations or the potential pinger locations is the logical next step. You know, they've done the first one. They need to go to the second. And even the third and fourth. And then after that consider, or maybe even concurrent with that, going out into the broader area.

So it's a question now of time versus cost. We need -- in order to reduce the time, we need to use broader scale tools. And in order to reduce the cost, we need to make sure that we're using the most effective tool for the job.

BALDWIN: What about, Mary, the most effective tool for the job. Most people I've talked to say that the Bluefin-21 is excellent, though thus far mission may be unlucky 13, not possibly turning up anything. Do you think that more assets should be deployed here to find this wreckage, to find the black boxes?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, I do think so, just because there were certain areas where they said the Bluefin couldn't reach. It was just too low for the Bluefin capability. And I know that the investigators and just the nature of investigators, they're going to want to be able to feel when it's done that they really have reached all areas that they were to search. And some of the deeper areas are going to need something - something a little sturdier. And I shouldn't say sturdier, just capable to reaching a greater depth. So I do think that they are looking for those right now and I think that we've had word from others that they are trying to do that, to locate additional underwater autonomous vehicles. So I would guess - I mean at this point it's a guess - but I would guess that they will bring in some more in addition to the Bluefin.

BALDWIN: OK. We have heard quite a bit now, thank goodness, could have happened weeks ago, but at least it's happened with us, this prime minister interview with Richard Quest.

SCHIAVO: Right.

BALDWIN: And he told CNN, Rob, this one to you, he told CNN, you know, this search for MH-370 is very, very different from the one that we keep bringing up here, Air France Flight 447. But in your opinion, in what ways is it similar? I mean what might we be able to learn from 447 in terms of strategy this stage in the game here?

MCCALLUM: Well, the similarities are that it was a relatively large aircraft in deep water and that it required some international cooperation in order to mount a search. But the less - the difference and the lessons, if you like, that, you know, this - this is infinitely more complex because there is no surface debris. With Air France 447, the tail of the aircraft was found virtually right off the bat. MH-370, not a trace. So the key to finding Air France 447 was using those satellite handshakes, if you like, to track the aircraft last known position. And that's what you're seeing now with the Inmarsat data.

BALDWIN: Families wanted information then. Families want information here, Mary, in this case. We know from the Malaysian PM, we now know that the government will be releasing this preliminary report next week, but the key word there, right, preliminary. I mean how much information really will we see in that?

SCHIAVO: Yes. Well, ordinarily, preliminary reports are very cursory. There is not a lot of information. It's just the facts. It's kind of like a police report, a, b, c, d, this happened, this happened, we know this, we don't know that. And, ordinarily, that's about it. I mean some of the ones that the NTSB files are just a few pages. They may list some witnesses, some people who have information. But here they did say they were going to make a recommendation in there, which is very unusual. Usually that waits until the end of the case.

BALDWIN: Recommendation for what?

SCHIAVO: But that's good because, you know, the momentum's now. For safety improvements.

BALDWIN: OK.

SCHIAVO: I think they're going to recommend something related to guarding the cockpit or the cabin or not having pilots alone or something like that. But they did say they were going to make a recommendation.

BALDWIN: OK. We'll see how that sits with the families here, a recommendation after this has happened.

Mary Schiavo and Rob McCallum, thank you both so much.

You know, the search for the plane, obviously trying the patience of these families. And as we're hearing word of expanding the search, you won't believe how long experts are guessing that it could now take to find those black boxes.

And a Nevada rancher took on the feds but his fighting words have outraged and offended many people across this country, even as they have won him some supporters. If you have missed any of his interviews on CNN, stay tuned. We have that for you.

Also ahead, could the crisis in Ukraine explode into World War III? Its current leader seems to think so. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

You know, in whiplash fashion here, this Nevada rancher went from a hero of land rights to an offender of civil rights. I want you to be the judge here if Cliven Bundy helps his case after his multiple interviews here on CNN just in the last 24 hours.

You see, Bundy had become a darling of some conservatives in his standoff with the federal government. And what you're looking at here, this is a slash from earlier in the month between his supporters and authorities. Bundy has not paid federal grazing fees for more than 20 years. He says the U.S. government has no right to ask for this money and that his family's been using the land for generations. But now his political supporters have really had this about face, decrying Bundy, not for his stand against the federal government here, but for his statements about African-Americans which he was recorded saying more than one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro. They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail because they never - they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves picking cotton and having family lives and doing things or are they better off under government subsidy?

But I said I'm wondering if they're better off under government subsidy and their - and young women are having the abortions and their young men are in jail and their older women and their children are standing -- sitting out on the cement porch without nothing to do, you know, I'm wondering, are they happier now under this government subsidy system than they were when they were slaves and they was able to have their family structure together?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Cliven Bundy, who is in his late 60s, talked to CNN's Bill Weir about the fact that politicians like Senator Rand Paul, conservative commentators like Sean Hannity, are now condemning his remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How does it feel to be abandoned by your friends on Fox? I mean the only reason we could get you on tonight is that I'm guessing they didn't call.

BUNDY: You know - you know I -- I don't think I have been abandoned. I think maybe they misunderstood me a little bit. But I think Fox and I, I think Hannity and - is - and I are just right on. And I have no doubt that he would be supporting me if he understand my - really what's in my heart. And I think he does understand me. I don't think there's a question there.

WEIR: Well, he called you ignorant, racist, repugnant and despicable.

BUNDY: Well, I hope I'm not that way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, he was on last night with Bill Weir. Then he was on this morning on "New Day" with Chris Cuomo. So we're going to show you this, but just a warning, what you're about to see may be tough for you to watch because he talked to Chris this morning. You see what he's holding? It's a calf, but it's a dead calf to make his point about land rights. That happened this morning here on our air. But perhaps even more jolting was when he invoked two civil rights icons to explain what he was trying to say about African-Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": I understand that the government was very aggressive with you and many people think it was wrong. I understand that people are upset with the government. The question is, what is our reaction? Your reaction was to say that you wonder if Negros weren't better off as slaves. Now are you a racist?

BUNDY: No, I'm not a racist, but I did wonder that. But let me say - let me tell you something. You know I thought about this this morning quite a bit.

CUOMO: Please.

BUNDY: And I thought about what the Reverend Martin Luther King said. And I thought Rosa Park and taking her seat at the front of the bus. Now Reverend Martin Luther King did not want her to take her seat in the front of the bus. That wasn't what he was talking about. He did not say go to the front of the bus and that's where your seat was. What Reverend King wanted was that she could sit anywhere in the bus and that nobody would say anything about it. And you and I can sit by her anywhere in the bus. That's what he wanted.

And that's what I want. I want her to be able to sit anywhere in the bus and I want to be able to sit by her anywhere in that bus. And that's what he wanted. He didn't want this prejudice thing like the media tried to put on me yesterday and I'm not going to put up with that because that's not what he wanted and that's not what I want. I want to sit by her anywhere in that bus and I want anybody to set -- be able to do the same thing. That's what he was after is not a prejudice thing but make us equal.

CUOMO: Mr. Bundy, nobody's -

BUNDY: Do you understand what I'm saying?

CUOMO: Oh, I, you know what, I kind of do. I'm not sure that I understand it. I understand that Martin Luther King's message was one of peace and freedom and that when you suggest that you were wondering if blacks were better off as slaves, that that's the opposite of freedom and very offensive to people and I think you probably know that.

BUNDY: Well, let me tell you, for -- I took this boot off so I wouldn't put it in -- my foot in my mouth with the boot on. But let me see if I can say something.

CUOMO: Uh-huh.

BUNDY: You know, I -- maybe I sinned, and maybe I need to ask forgiveness, and maybe I don't know what was - what I actually said. But, you know, when you talk about prejudice, we're talking about not being able to exercise what we think and our feelings, but we don't have - we're not freedom to say - and we don't have freedom to say what we want. If I call - if I say Negro or black boy or slave, I'm not - I'm not -- if those people cannot take those kind of words and not be offensive, then Martin Luther King hasn't got his job done yet. Them should be able to - I should be able to say those things and they shouldn't offend anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Cliven Bundy this morning here on CNN. There is a heck of a lot to explore on this story here. I should tell you, coming up next hour, Bill Weir will be joining me live. Got a lot of questions for Bill about that interview he did last, including just what kind of feedback he's gotten, reaction from his prime time interview. So we'll talk to Bill next hour. Also on this story, a number of conservatives, you know, really rallying around initially Cliven Bundy, a lot of people agreeing with him, maybe before knowing much about the man, but now they're running in the opposite direction. We'll explore what this means for conservatives, Republican Party politics here going into the midterms. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: New U.S. sanctions against Russia could begin as early as today. Russia's - rather, Ukraine's prime minister is accusing Russia of wanting to start World War III inside his fragile nation. Listen for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARSENIY YATSENYUK, UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Military aggression by Russia on Ukraine's territory will lead to military conflict in Europe. The world has not yet forgotten World War II, but Russia already wants to start World War III.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: World War III, he says.

Russia, meantime, you see this map, Russia ordered new military drills near Ukraine's border where some 40,000 Russian troops reportedly are positioned. Inside Ukraine, Pro-Russian separatists are holed up in nearly a dozen eastern cities. Ukrainian forces trying to push them out. Right now, clashes are erupting in the city of Slovyansk. Ukraine's government says 13 people on a bus are being held captive, including foreign observers and military officials.

Let's go to Washington to our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

And, Jim, when we talk about the sanctions here, can you just tell me what are possible targets for these sanctions? How painful will the sanctions be both to Russia but also possibly, you know, EU/U.S. economies?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No, no question. Fair question. These sanctions would be very similar to the ones we saw in the first round. They're going to target individuals. Individuals close to Vladimir Putin. Leaders of some of the big state companies in Russia, as well as possibly a state institution or two. Banks that do business for those individuals.

You know, the real focus here for the administration has been getting unity among their European partners. They want this to be a united front on the sanctions. That's been a challenge at times because, as you reference, the Europeans bear a lot of economic cost for this. They do a tremendous amount of business with Russia and they depend on Russia for their energy. And that's why the administration to date hasn't been able to take that next step of sanctions, which is targeting whole sectors of Russia's economy. That would have enormous effect, but it just doesn't appear we're there yet.

BALDWIN: What about this? We know, just quickly, Ukraine is holding presidential election May 25th. Putin spokesman saying today violence in Ukraine may threaten this upcoming, you know, election's legitimacy. Let's read between the lines. What's he saying here?

SCIUTTO: Well, I think he's setting up, you know, the option and kind of the rational for him to do, for Russia to do whatever it wants, right? You know, they set up these pretexts. They did it in Crimea before, for instance, saying, ethnic Russians are under threat. They need our protection. Russia goes in, takes over Crimea.

They've been saying the same thing about eastern Ukraine, ethnic Russians, pro-Russian separatists under threat, that that could be - you know, that that threatens the Russian state. It lays the groundwork for an invasion. And now you have this upcoming election to sort of lay out there that this election may not be legitimate means that they have the option, if that election doesn't go their way, to do whatever they want to, you know? So much of this is rhetoric, it's propaganda, it's keeping their options open. And really, you know, from the U.S. and the European perspective, none of those options look good.

BALDWIN: Oh, Jim Sciutto, thank you so much. We'll watch it for you very, very closely.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Meantime, back to the story here out of Nevada. Cliven Bundy standing up to the federal government and he is not alone, by the way. The Nevada rancher won all kinds of supporters here in his fight, but he could lose them with his comments. We'll explore what that could mean.

Also ahead, in South Korea, an entire nation in mourning. But these rescue divers, they cannot hit pause because of this unimaginable task of recovering bodies. Stay with me. You are watching CNN.

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