Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Crisis in Ukraine Escalates; Nevada Rancher Makes Controversial Comments

Aired April 25, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Now we continue on, hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Beginning with this one -- in whiplash fashion, a Nevada rancher went from a hero of land rights to an offender of civil rights. You be the judge today if this man, Cliven Bundy, helped his case or not after his multiple interviews here with us live on CNN in the past 24 hours.

Bundy had become a darling of some conservatives for his standoff with the federal government over a million dollars he owes in grazing fees. He says the U.S. government has no right to ask for this money.

And our Bill Weir confronted him about that point and others on "CNN TONIGHT."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL WEIR, CNN ANCHOR: You're grazing your cows on public land for free. So how are you not sort of a welfare queen in a cowboy hat?

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: Well, you know, I might be a welfare queen but I tell you I'm producing something for America and using a resource that nobody else can use, would use or could use and I'm putting a red meat on your table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But it is Bundy's comments about African-Americans specifically that have turned off many of his supporters on Capitol Hill and in Bunkerville and beyond.

CNN's Dan Simon shows us what has made Cliven Bundy a political pariah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLIVEN BUNDY, RANCHER: I will tell you one more thing I know about the Negro, they have young children, put their young men in jail because they never learned how to pick cotton.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the rancher who just a few weeks ago was branded a conservative hero for standing up to the U.S. government. Now he's garnering all the attention for his racist rants. BUNDY: Were they better off as slaves picking cotton and having a family life and doing things or are they better off under government subsidy?

SIMON: Two weeks ago, Cliven Bundy went head to head with federal authorities over his cattle grazing on public land.

BUNDY: The federal government is here with an army stealing my cattle, is what it is.

SIMON: Bundy's anti-government crusade skyrocketed him to GOP stardom.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: The government may be thankful for cutting the lawn for free.

SIMON: Backed by Republican presidential hopefuls.

SENATOR RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: It is government over reach, government gone amok.

SIMON: Now supporters are running the other way. Senator Rand Paul tweeting, Cliven Bundy's remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him. Bundy appearing to backpedal on "CNN Tonight" with Bill Weir.

BUNDY: I didn't mean on slavery, but I meant to compare it with maybe a life on the farm or life back in the south where they had, you know, some chickens and gardens and they had something to do.

SIMON: So who still stands by Bundy's side?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would take a bullet for that man if need be.

SIMON: Jason Bullock is a former Army infantry man who a few weeks ago came to the remote Nevada desert to become Bundy's bodyguard.

(on camera): You're protecting this man and he is wondering whether African-Americans would be better off as slaves. How does that strike you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't strike me any kind of way. The same old Mr. Bundy I met the first day of all this happenings.

SIMON: Aren't those offensive comments to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIMON: Dan Simon, CNN, Bunkerville, Nevada.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Dan Simon now joins me live from the site of this ranch here in Bunkerville, Nevada.

Dan, here is what I want to get back to, the crux of the story, what he should have been paying to the federal government. We know that Cliven Bundy actually paid these fees up to a point in the early 90s. Why did he stop paying?

SIMON: Brooke, first of all, bear with us, if you see the wind tick up. We have been experiencing windstorms all day long here.

BALDWIN: We will roll with it.

SIMON: But Mr. Bundy actually did pay -- yes, Mr. Bundy actually did pay his fees prior to 1993. He paid them for many years. Why did things change?

The government came in and said that they wanted to protect the desert tortoise. They made it an endangered species. And so they wanted to limit the amount of cattle that could be here on the range. And Mr. Bundy said forget about it. I will keep my cattle here.

So he stopped paying the fees. Well, then lo and behold, after 20 years, the government got totally fed up and they filed a couple of lawsuits against him. They won those suits and they came in here armed with two court orders to remove all of the cattle. They brought in armed marshals and then you had armed militiamen on Mr. Bundy's side who wanted to have this standoff.

Faced with the prospect with a bloody confrontation, the government said it's not really worth the risk. Mr. Bundy, we will put your cattle back and lo and behold here we are. Mr. Bundy could have simply walked away a winner in all this, but he decided to wade into these very controversial waters by talking about race and social issues and here we are today, Brooke.

BALDWIN: My goodness. Tortoise, some cattle, not paying the federal government, racist rant. This story has been bouncing up and down everywhere. Dan Simon, thank you so much in Nevada for us.

Let's broaden this out here. Let's talk politics and beyond.

CNN political commentator Donna Brazile and Ben Ferguson on the left and right respectively here and in Washington CNN chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash.

So, Dana, I just want you to set the political stage for us, because I know initially a number of conservatives they were calling Cliven Bundy -- when the story first broke, they were calling him an American folk hero and now they are like washing their hands on this guy.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. They can't run away fast enough from his comments specifically what he said about blacks and so forth.

The list includes Rand Paul, who you saw in Dan's piece, a potential Republican candidate for president, another, Rick Perry, also Sean Hannity who made this his cause on FOX News and on his radio show. He had Cliven Bundy on over and over again. And even the local senator, the home state senator, I should say, Dean Heller, they all supported him and supported the cause that he was pushing.

And as soon as this story broke, his comments got out there, they ran like the wind. Having said that, politically, that was -- it was actually -- even those who high-profile people, it was kind of limited. And talking to sources in the party structure at the Republican National Committee, those who are in charge of getting senators elected because that is the big prize this fall, retaking the Senate for Republicans, those party officials told -- refused to comment and in the case of the Senate told their Senate candidates I'm told to just be careful, because they didn't know -- in the words of one source, didn't much about this yahoo.

It wasn't everybody who jumped on the bandwagon, but those who did jumped off fast.

BALDWIN: Interesting guidance. Be careful.

Dana, I want you to stay with me. If you want to jump in the conversation, please feel free.

But, Ben Ferguson, first to you, because I know you have talked to Cliven Bundy on your radio show today, and other than this racist rant of his, which I will say again I don't want to give much oxygen to on national television, you say Bundy has a legitimate point. How so? This guy has been breaking the law.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: He had a legitimate point to Bureau of Land Management and the way that they were doing this and the federal government maybe should not have as much of this land to be able to come in and stop him from grazing in the middle of nowhere because of a tortoise.

And that was a legitimate point to be made. And other people around the country rallied behind that to say does the federal government have too much land that they can come in and control for really no reason? That's where I say he was legitimate.

The problem is, as soon as he made these comments, everyone else doesn't care about that anymore and they looked at what he said, which was racist, and that's why you saw people that ran away from it, because they were racist comments. Anyone that heard them knows that when you say maybe they would have been better off picking cotton is not something you want to stand beside.

BALDWIN: Donna Brazile, let me hear you voice. Jump in.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I agree with Ben.

Of course you don't want to stand behind those ridiculous, repugnant remarks that Mr. Bundy made, but you also don't want to stand beside someone who puts himself above the law. This is the law. When you graze your cattle on federal land, you pay a fee. All of the other ranchers, all of the other farmers have to pay the same fee. Mr. Bundy has been having this battle with the federal government for 20 years. And he's been losing the battle. So if you want to change a law, you go and work within the system. You don't make someone a hero simply because he's trying to be above the law and wanted to be treated as a special case.

With regards to his remarks, they were so offensive. I don't even want to dignify what he said, because they have no place in our dialogue, no place in our conversation. Slavery was one of the most inhumane institutions ever created. And the fact that we're still living with the scars of slavery, through the descendants of slaves, through the policies and repercussions of legal segregation that followed, no one should try to have this conversation just because they believe that the federal government is encroaching on their rights, when in fact Mr. Bundy simply wanted to basically put more inflammatory rhetoric in the jar.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Ben.

FERGUSON: I think the other thing is that the learning moment for this is politicians should be careful who they stand beside and more importantly be careful who they attack and how they attack them.

This thing became such a political firestorm because when you have a senator who's in charge of the Senate who says he's a domestic terrorist when he's a guy that ranches and has cattle that grazes, that's not a domestic terrorist.

A domestic terrorist is somebody that does the Oklahoma City bombing. Those are the types of things that we should at and say, why didn't it even get to that point? Let the guy have his issue. Let the government decide what they want to do. Have the court battle. But when you see that divide and everybody ratchets up, this is what happens.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Give us context.

Forgive me, Donna.

But, Dana, give us context at this time.

BASH: Yes.

I was just going to say that I'm sure Ben would agree with this, that part of the issue is that you have people who are not elected officials who elected officials kind of try to use their celebrity or their story to gain attention and to get favor from the base, like in this latest example, Cliven Bundy, Ted Nugent in Texas.

You had the "Duck Dynasty" guy.

BALDWIN: Joe the plumber.

BASH: They all got the people who supported them in trouble.

However, Having said that, those are obviously on the Republican side. I'm hearing a lot of pushback from many Republicans, especially those in and around Washington who didn't have anything to do with this guy in Nevada, who are saying, wait a minute. There are definitely times when Democrats -- I'm not equating what this guy necessarily with what Democrats said, but when Democrats say and say ignorant things and do stupid things and the elected officials on the Democratic side don't get the same pushback and don't get the same scrutiny, perhaps, even if they are linked to these people as before.

I'm just going to give you one example. Earlier today, I mistakenly said that this is a tweet from Governor Pat Quinn in Illinois. It was actually from his campaign. But his campaign inadvertently linking a story saying that there is a comparison between black voters who supported his Republican opponent and Jewish people collaborating with the Nazis.

This is something that it was a linked story. They realized what they did. They apologized. But it's the kind of thing that, you know, Democrats should be called on the carpet for. We have a story on CNN.com.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Dana, with all due respect to that, this is no false equivalence.

We're talking about a rancher who has garnered a lot of media attention, conservative media attention, who has tried to put himself above the law.

BASH: I totally agree, Donna.

BRAZILE: This is someone who made the most ridiculous comments, similar to the comments made by someone from my home state of Louisiana, Mr. "Duck Dynasty," Mr. Robertson, that somehow or another people were happy being slaves. That is just such a repugnant statement to make and that people are better off picking cotton.

FERGUSON: It's ignorant.

BRAZILE: Thank you, Ben.

So, the false equivalence, Harry Reid is a senator from the state of Nevada. And he may define the domestic terrorism the same way that the RAND Corporation and others, who want to have a violent confrontation with the government, I don't know if that is the case with Mr. Bundy.

All I know is that I'm glad that the Bureau of Land Management backed off, that there is no confrontation. Mr. Bundy needs to work within the law and work within the system to try to resolve his dispute with the federal government. These other insane comments are stupid. (CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I hear you, Donna Brazile, loud and clear. And I think a lot of people do.

But to that point and back to his message and the sliver of his message that I know, Ben, that you find legitimate, here he was with Chris Cuomo this morning holding a dead calf and pulled out his pocket constitution. It's one thing to sort of all of a sudden have the militiamen, these supporters who, from what I understand, he didn't ask for them to come. They came from all around the country.

They're ready to support this man and this man's principles, but, as far as momentum for the conservative movement, a lot of people walking away from this guy, you, I say you, Republicans, conservatives want to expand the tent. Right? Isn't that the point right now? How does this damage that? How much damage has been done, do you think?

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: I think there has been a little bit of damage to those that were around him and embraced him so quickly.

And this is why I didn't jump to embrace him. I said you got to look that he had a 20-year battle. Let's read what the battle was and where he lost and what was said. The other thing was, as soon as you saw snipers show up and people with the U.S. government show up, my initial thoughts were, are we really going to have a Waco 2.0 over cattle grazing and a tortoise?

You have got to be kidding me. That's why I think so many of the people showed to defend him saying, you don't do this even if he is wrong, even if he did not pay his bill or he says there is some sort of land decision. He says I want to pay the state. I don't want to pay the federal government.

But that's why you don't stand up next to someone and championing them so fast without knowing their entire history, what they believe in, and without reading the court cases. To be honest with you, I read hours of stuff and realized he had lost a couple different times. I'm not sure I want to stand by him right now.

BASH: Brooke, I just want to before we go say to my friend Donna, I am not -- there is no false equivalency here, because I'm not giving any kind of equivalency to anything that this guy said, because there's just no way that he should have been saying these things. I'm just trying to make a point about the state of our politics here.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I understand.

BRAZILE: I understand.

BALDWIN: Dana Bash, Donna Brazile, Ben Ferguson, thank you all.

This is what people are talking about. Thank you so much.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Coming back, we will talk about the missing Flight 370, the underwater drone now just about complete with its mission, 5 percent to go. If it doesn't find anything, where does the search go next?

And Ukraine, as the crisis there heats up, Ukraine's prime minister is accusing Russia of wanting to start World War III, his words.

And later, we will take you live to Rome to Vatican City, where this weekend Pope Francis set to canonize two popes at once. This is history, folks.

Stay right here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Breaking news here into CNN. Kennesaw State University in Georgia is on lockdown. Getting some information here with regard to a purse and possibly could be harmful to students here.

Guys, can you get in my ear because I know nothing? OK. Forgive me. We're trying to get some information on Kennesaw State. Thought we were going to go there. But as soon as I have information on that, I promise to pass it along to you.

Let's go to Ukraine. New U.S. sanctions against Russia could start as early as today. Ukraine's prime minister is accusing Russia of wanting to start World War III inside of his fragile nation. Russia ordered new military drills near Ukraine's border, where some 40,000 Russian troops reportedly are positioned.

Inside Ukraine, pro-Russian separatists are holed up in nearly a dozen Eastern cities. Ukrainian forces are trying of course to push them out.

Right now, I can tell you that clashes are erupting in the city of Slavyansk, and Ukraine's government says 13 people on a bus are being held captive there.

Let's go to Eastern Ukraine to our senior international correspondent, Arwa Damon.

Arwa, I understand you got access to the pro-Russian command center inside Slavyansk. What did you see?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That was the security services, or SVU building, as it's called.

And it is where the commanders there told us that they have, they say, around 2,000 people that they can call up ready with weapons. They say the majority of the weapons, they actually captured from the Ukrainian military, 90 percent of which they say were handed over to them willingly and they have their defenses pretty well-established.

Outside of the city itself, they have barricades made of tires. We saw those defenses going into effect yesterday when the Ukrainian military initially tried to approach the city. The defense was set on fire. That then sends a signal to their smaller mobile units that the enemy is approaching.

That being said, though, Brooke, despite the fact that Kiev has announced the second phase of this so-called anti-terrorism operation, there hasn't really been a significant Ukrainian military movement. The Ukrainians are saying at this stage that their first goal is to try to lock down, surround the city of Slavyansk -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Arwa Damon in Donetsk, Ukraine, Arwa, thank you.

Coming up next, in the search for the missing plane, the underwater robot, the Bluefin-21, almost complete with its search, something like 5 percent remaining here on its ah mission. If nothing is found, the question we're all asking, what happens next? Does the search expand and will more assets be thrown at this effort?

And later, Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy in a dust-up that began as a conflict over cattle is now snowballing into a much bigger discussion. CNN's Bill Weir talked to Bundy. He joins me live with much more on an incredibly compelling interview.

But, first, this week's CNN Hero grew up in a funeral home surrounded by death and grief and now she helps her community focus on life by getting past the trauma.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicken nuggets, French fries, mustard, and a milkshake. My daddy ordered the same thing as me. That is my daddy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son's father, he was murdered. They had a bond. It was just a bond that a lot of kids don't have with their father.

ANNETTE MARCH-GRIER, CNN HERO: A child's grief can be very different from adults. They can easily lose their identity and their security, and that shift can be very dangerous.

There you go. How are you feeling today? Our program provides that safe place for a child to recover after the death of someone close. Our volunteers help the children explore their feelings.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you choose red?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was angry when my dad passed away.

MARCH-GRIER: And talk about healthy ways of coping.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get that anger out.

MARCH-GRIER: We teach our children that it's OK to cry. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His father died, so he's feeling very sad.

MARCH-GRIER: Grief is truly a public health problem. We have got to begin to address it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coping is how we deal with our feelings.

MARCH-GRIER: We're helping to heal wounds and bring families back together again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We are now 50 painstaking days into the hunt for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, and searchers are not giving up on this underwater drone, the Bluefin-21. After 13 trips to the near bottom of the Southern Indian Ocean, the U.S. Navy's underwater drone has covered almost all of the search area.

You see at the top middle of your screen that teeny-tiny yellow dot? That's the search area. It is just about complete. That is the six- mile area drawn around the possible black box pings heard now more than two weeks ago.

But CNN has just learned that if this 13th mission comes up empty for this Bluefin, they are calling it quits, at least in this search area. New lines will be drawn, and the search will expand to an area next to the current search zone.

It's a daunting prospect, considering the fact that some experts say this could keep on expanding to include the entire southern corridor where this plane is believed to have flown.

Joining me now, Michael Kay, CNN aviation analyst and retired lieutenant colonel for the British military, and joining us from England, Simon Boxall, oceanographer, the National Oceanography Center.

Gentlemen, welcome.

Michael, first to you, because we did a little math here at CNN. And so based upon the rates that this Bluefin-21 actually travels, if they expand, which it sound like they will, expand the search area, that could mean 50 more days of searching at the least. Is that the way to go do you think at this point?

MICHAEL KAY, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I don't think this is unusual. We should be expecting this from the outset, Brooke.

If we go back to sort of how the investigation has progressed over the last 49, 50 days, you know, we went from having nothing, drawing this radius arc 2,500 miles from the South China Sea, which gives you over 10 million square miles to search for. Then we got some absolutely critical Inmarsat analysis, which drew the northern and southern arcs.

And then we used some assumptions in terms of speeds and heights and fuel burns and endurance to get a distance, and then by a stroke of luck we detected these pings. And it's phenomenal that we actually went from over 10 million square miles into a 300-square-mile area.

Now, what we knew is that the unusual bit about this investigation is, is that we were going in for the needle without getting the haystack.

BALDWIN: Right.

KAY: What do I mean by that? That's the ping locator zoning directly in on the black boxes without finding debris.