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House Panel To Subpoena V.A. Secretary; Benghazi Panel Chair: Process Will Be Fair, This Will Not Be Kangaroo Court; Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's Lawyers Push For Death Penalty Possibility To Be Thrown Out; Pro-Russian Separatists Push Forward On Referendum Vote

Aired May 08, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN Breaking News.

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We do begin with breaking news. This just is just in to CNN. The House Veterans Affairs Committee will force Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki to testify before lawmakers. Lawmakers will subpoena Shinseki. He's accused of instituting a secret waiting list for certain veterans in Phoenix. Shinseki talked about the controversy with NBC last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you willing as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to accept full responsibility?

GEN. ERIC SHINSEKI (RET.), SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: I am. I have and that's the reason the I.G. is down there doing the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want you to resign or be fired. Will you resign?

SHINSEKI: I would say I serve at the pleasure of the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: At issue here is a cover-up. CNN's Drew Griffin has been following the story. He joins me now by phone. Tell us more about this controversy, Drew.

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, the controversy really blew up over allegations at the Phoenix V.A. where two V.A. physicians have come forward and said look, there's a secret list. It's a list to prevent the V.A. Headquarters like Shinseki and others to know that veterans have been waiting 14 months, 21 months just to get a doctor's appointment. And the allegation is that 40 veterans died while waiting on that list. They don't know why they died.

They just know that they did die, and they were waiting for these appointments and these appointment times with these excessive waits. You know, this unfortunately, not the secret list portion, but this waiting time and vets dying on waiting lists is a pattern that we've seen across the country.

COSTELLO: Well, I know that lawmakers want e-mails. They want to read these e-mails. Do you know anything about them and what they might say, what they might show?

GRIFFIN: Well, the e-mails -- we have had those e-mails for several weeks now and they seem to show that the VA director in Phoenix knew and was warned about these wait times and the fact that this list, this secret waiting list, made it seem like they were trying to hide from the public, certainly from the veterans that these excessive waits were going on. So it shows some complicity. At least that's the allegations.

And from what I've read in the e-mails, the intent, but that is what the inspector general's office has been investigating in Phoenix. And I might add we keep waiting for this I.G.'s investigation to be over. It started last fall. So I don't know what kind of urgency there is there.

COSTELLO: OK, Drew Griffin, thanks for filling us in. We appreciate it. Joining me now on the phone, Darin Selnick with Concerned Veterans of America. Thanks for joining me, sir.

DARIN SELNICK, U.S. AIR FORCE (RETIRED) (via telephone): Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

COSTELLO: I appreciate your being here. I know you've been pushing for this for quite some time. So just tell me how you're feeling this morning.

SELNICK: Well, I'm feeling that this is the right thing. I used to work at the V.A. I was a special assistant for three secretaries and this stuff just doesn't happen for years without anybody knowing it. Besides Sharon Helman, I don't see why they have not relieved of duty her boss, the director, and he's had warnings.

There's been testimony by the GAO about this for the last couple years about cover-up stuff and other things. There's been other preventable deaths around the country as you guys have reported. Nicholas Tolanto (ph), V.A. administrator in 2012, so it's not like this is shocking and new. And I think he has been totally -- Shinseki has been totally uncommunicative unlike the other two secretaries I worked for.

And Congress wants to find out what's going on, and he won't talk to them. I think it's the right thing because he needs to know that he does have to communicate, and we need to know what he knows. We need to know what he knows.

COSTELLO: This is -- it's ironic because Shinseki is a veteran, a decorated veteran. Are you surprised he stands accused of doing these things?

SELNICK: Well, I wouldn't say he's accused of doing it. He's probably accused of not really being communicative and not knowing. Inside and outside the V.A., he is known as having the palace guard around him and being disinterested and unengaged. So as all this stuff's been going around, he's been letting the ship drift, and that's surprising that he just doesn't want to pay attention to these things until it's too late.

He makes the common mistake that many generals make when they go to the V.A. The V.A. is not the military. It does not respond the way the military is. I'm an Air Force veteran. The general tells me to do something, I do it. In the V.A., they don't. They salute and then they do what they want to do because they're a career bureaucrat.

COSTELLO: I can understand that. Darin Selnick, thanks for being with me this morning on short notice. I do appreciate it.

SELNICK: My pleasure. Thanks.

COSTELLO: At this moment, Capitol Hill is opening for business and Benghazi once again at the top of the agenda. The House of Representatives poised to vote on a Republican proposal to create a special panel to investigate the attacks. Some Democrats are crying foul, saying this is all about the politics. Here's what one of them had to say. California Congressman Adam Schiff. He told me this moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPRESENTATIVE ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: It's a select committee on talking points. It's a fund-raising vehicle for the Republican Party. And that, frankly, is really, you know, destructive and yet again partisan exercise that gets us unfortunately farther from a focus on bringing these people to justice, farther from a focus on where are we in terms of protecting our diplomatic facilities around the world. That is really not what this select committee is interested in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But in an interview with CNN's Jake Tapper, the chairman of that proposed committee, South Carolina Republican Trey Gowdy, he pushed back on those claims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPRESENTATIVE TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You will be able to have confidence that this will be run much like a trial was run with respect to fairness and process. This is not going to be a kangaroo court. And if I thought it were, I wouldn't have participated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash, live in Washington with more on this. But the truth is Republicans are using this as a money maker.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They absolutely are. They have, on their web site, information about Benghazi and about this proposed select committee and, you know, press here to donate to the Republican committee in charge of electing House Democrats. And they're not backing down from it. They're completely saying that this is OK. I should say that Trey Gowdy, the man you just heard from, also told Jake Tapper that he does not think that that's the right thing to do.

That is one of many reasons why Democrats are poised to potentially boycott this committee. And we're going to find out more later this afternoon before the House is going to formally take a vote to put this committee into place. And that's probably going to happen later today. It's not -- it doesn't -- from all my discussions with Democrats who are involved in this, it's not just a threat, that boycott. It's a potential reality.

COSTELLO: Dana Bash reporting live from Washington this morning.

Hillary Clinton, by the way, also making her first public comments on the committee, saying she's satisfied with what she knows about the attacks. But in an interview yesterday, the former secretary of state hinted that Republicans in Congress might have other motives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Despite all of the hearings, all of the information that's been provided, some choose not to be satisfied and choose to continue to move forward. That's their choice, and I do not believe there is any reason for it to continue in this way, but they get to call the shots in the Congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: For his part, the committee's chairman vowed to get the full story. You heard him moments ago. He's speaking to Clinton along with the former U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice whom he called, quote, "major players" will be a key part of his efforts.

Let's talk about the Boston marathon bombing suspect. He was questioned without being told his rights while being treated for a critical gunshot wound. Now the lawyers for Boston marathon suspect, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev want all of those statements thrown out. That's not all. Tsarnaev's lawyers also want the possibility of the death penalty thrown out as well.

Susan Candiotti has been following these latest developments. I know you pored through some court documents. Tell us more.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you said, his defense attorneys are doing everything they can to get their client a fair trial, which is set in November. So they're saying now that all of the statements he made when he was in his hospital bed should be thrown out because he was in no shape to give a statement. Remember that just before this, Tsarnaev had been cornered in that boat. He was shot and critically wounded, rushed to the hospital.

The FBI interviewed him the very next day. We're now learning new details about Tsarnaev's medical condition. For example, his eyes were sewn shut according to the defense. He had several medications, and they said he was too groggy to be talking. He had had a tracheotomy done. He could not speak and they had given him a notepad to communicate.

And that's how he was talking with them. Their main point is this. That he had asked for, according to the defense, a lawyer. And I want to show you a quote from the court document. They said in part, quote, in all, he wrote the word "lawyer" ten times, sometimes circling it. At one point, he wrote, "I am tired. Leave me alone."

Now, for the government's part, they said, look, we have something that we call the public safety exception. And the reason we were allowed to talk to him without a lawyer is because we didn't know if there were more bombs out there. We didn't know if there were co- conspirators out there. And in this case, we're allowed to interview him without a lawyer present.

The defense says no. The defense argues it had been about five days since this happened. So far there had been no other evidence of anything else showing up. Therefore in this case the public safety exception should not apply. Now it's up to a judge to decide.

COSTELLO: Let's bring in our legal analyst, Paul Callan. What do you think about this? Do defense attorneys have a point?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think defense attorneys have a very strong point in this case. This idea of a public safety exception to the Miranda warnings came about in 1984 when a rapist was arrested in New York outside of a supermarket and his holster was empty. And the cops thought maybe the gun was inside. Couldn't pick it up.

So they questioned him about where did you drop the gun, OK? The court said that's an emergency situation, OK? The gun is close by in the supermarket. Somebody might get hurt. Now, what's happened post- 9/11 is that the federal government is expanding this doctrine tremendously to say if there's any danger to the public at large, we don't have to give Miranda warnings, we don't have to let you have a lawyer.

And frankly, it's never gone to the U.S. Supreme Court and I don't think they're going to take it this far. Five days post-arrest, asking for a lawyer repeatedly, heavily drugged. I don't see it. I just don't see how the Justice Department can be correct on this argument.

CANDIOTTI: In terror cases, too, remember when we had the underwear bomber, suspected bomber.

CALLAN: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: In Detroit. And the government -- a similar argument, we had to talk to him right away and find out who else might be involved.

CALLAN: There have been two cases -- I think there's a third one also out there -- in the federal circuit courts which are the courts right under the Supreme Court where these courts had been friendly to expanding the doctrine to allow more extensive interrogation in situations where there's an imminent threat. But the question is, at what point does it not become an imminent threat? And here, five days later, I think they pretty much knew what the whole story was on the Boston bombing. And I think they're going to have a hard time with that argument, Susan, in court.

COSTELLO: Also didn't he write things on the boat wall, right? He wrote those things. So there is enough incriminating evidence out there.

CANDIOTTI: Certainly manifesto, but I remember that our sources told us at the time and even now in court, arguing we didn't really know. Sure, we knew a lot, but did we know for sure? They were still trying to find out who else might have been involved. Tamerlan, the older brother, was dead. Did he have other people?

CALLAN: There are lots of things.

COSTELLO: Connected to some terrorist group, right?

CALLAN: They are a lot of thing they would like to know. They always like to know about lots of things in criminal conspiracies. I think the thing we should focus on is that he can still be convicted even if all of this stuff is thrown out. This is sort of like, you know, the cherry on top of the case against him. All that Miranda means is if you violate Miranda rights, you can't use the confession itself. But there are independent witnesses, there are videotapes. His actions after the bombing, there's more than adequate evidence --

COSTELLO: What about the death penalty?

CALLAN: The death penalty is an entirely different matter, and this would not come into play into whether the death penalty gets imposed or not. That has to do with the background of the defendant and whether the federal government wants to seek the death penalty. A totally different question. He's still convictable even without this evidence.

COSTELLO: Paul Callan, Susan Candiotti, many thanks to both of you.

Still to come on the NEWSROOM, just days before an important referendum in Ukraine, Russia claims its troops are leaving the border. Well, are those troops leaving the border? That's pretty much up in the air. Jim Sciutto has the story. Good morning, Jim.

JIM SCIUOTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. NATO's secretary-general says there is no sign of those Russian troops pulling back despite Putin's promises. We'll have more right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: This morning, signs that a military standoff is varying deeper into dangerous territory. Russia says Ukraine is mobilizing 15,000 troops to its border. That comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin claims he's pulling back his troops from the Ukrainian border. He even asked pro-Russian separatists to delay a vote for parts of Eastern Ukraine to succeed, but the U.S. and NATO are skeptical.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERS FUGH RSMUSSEN, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Why we have noted the Russians' statements that they have started to withdraw troops, so far we haven't seen any indications that they are pulling back their troops. Let me assure you that if we get visible evidence that they are actually pulling back their troops, I would be the very first to welcome it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: And Putin's pleased to delay the vote are not working either as separatists now plan to go ahead with Sunday's referendum vote. Chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto is in Washington with more. Good morning.

SCIUTTO: Good morning, Carol. You did have what could have been interpreted as hopeful signs yesterday that President Putin's promise to bring back those troops and also his encouraging separatists in Eastern Ukraine not to hold this referendum this weekend. U.S. officials have been skeptical because promises like this have not been followed through on before, and that appears to be the case now. No indication from officials either that those Russian troops are moving back in any numbers.

And of course now that referendum going forward. At the same time, Ukrainian officials releasing what they say is more evidence of direct Russian involvement with and direction of those separatists on the ground inside Ukraine. Have a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice-over): The Ukrainian security service says this alleged intercept catches a Russian official giving direct orders to a pro-Russian activist to proceed with a referendum on joining Russia. More signs of the pro-Russian push inside Ukraine. On a day that in one town Ukrainian flag torn down -- the pro-Russian flag paraded through the crowd.

And with that one fleeting success of government forces in Eastern Ukraine reversed as pro-Russian separatists retake part of Mariopol. Ukrainian troops moved in hours earlier unceremoniously marched out. This tug-of-war between east and west inside Ukraine is growing more intense and more deadly.

U.S. officials say Russia remains the driving force behind the crisis. But Russian President Vladimir Putin continues to sell a very different narrative.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): A necessary condition for the start of this dialogue is the unconditional stopping the use of any violence for both the use of military force and the use of armed illegal units, extremist elements and forces is absolutely unacceptable in the modern world.

SCIUTTO: With crucial national elections now less than three weeks away, the administration's critics in Congress are increasingly calling for tougher sanctions against Moscow.

SENATOR BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: I don't understand. I just -- I truly don't get it. We've got 40,000 troops intimidating people on the inside. We've got black ops, little green men, doing the things they're doing on the inside. I don't understand. I really don't. I just don't understand the thinking of waiting until the damage is done.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: I'm told that the Obama administration gave what was described to me a very sobering assessment of the outlook of Ukraine to U.S. senators. And including in that assessment was the judgment that Russia is now expanding its ambitions to include Odessa, the port of Odessa. This is in south western Ukraine. So away from that eastern area that we've been talking about.

In fact, that the Russian intention is to keep that under Russian control, that they don't want it under Ukrainian control, and that's a real problem going forward because you're now seeing this expanding just from that part of the country bordering Russia to the part that's getting closer to Europe.

COSTELLO: So Jim, will it mean anything if separatists carry off the referendum this weekend?

SCIUTTO: It's a good question because no one's going to recognize it. U.S. officials have made that clear. European officials have made that clear, but it will mean something because they also didn't recognize, you remember the referendum in Crimea where people there voted for annexation by Russia.

But there are also questions about whether you can carry off, you know, a credible vote in light of all the violence that is going on and do the separatists have the ability to even get, you know, these polling stations together. But as with a lot of things here, this is performance art, right?

It's about sending messages. It's about propaganda. It's not about carrying off necessarily a credible vote. It's what they can claim rather than what the international community will recognize.

COSTELLO: Jim Sciutto reporting live for us this morning, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the day kidnapped survivor, Michelle Knight, was rescued, she almost didn't believe it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE KNIGHT, KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: I hear a noise, but anybody can say police. And then I noticed some form of a big person. I was, like, OK. Maybe this might be.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COSTELLO: Knight details the rest of her incredible rescue next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Attorneys for Ariel Castro are offering some surprising and unbelievable details about the man who kept three Cleveland women captive for a decade. In an exclusive interview with CNN affiliate, WKYC, one of Castro's attorneys claims Castro actually wanted his victims to escape, but he was too afraid to turn himself in to police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRAIG WEINTRAUB, ATTORNEY FOR ARIEL CASTRO: He intentionally was becoming much more negligent in the house about locking the doors and keeping them inside. He knew that he left that front door unlocked and not bolted like he would normally bolt it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But in contrast to Castro's cowardice, Michelle Knight offers up a face of courage. Knight sat down with Anderson Cooper to talk about the day she realized her nightmare was over and why even as it was happening, she almost didn't believe it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KNIGHT: To me and Gina, we actually thought somebody was breaking in.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, CNN'S "AC360": You heard what, noises down stairs?

KNIGHT: Yes.

COOPER: What happened?

KNIGHT: There was a crash, pounding on doors. Then we didn't hear no sound.

COOPER: Did you know that Amanda had run out of the house?

KNIGHT: No. We didn't have no clue. Whatsoever that she had taken off.

COOPER: Did you know that he was gone?

KNIGHT: Well, yes, we knew he was gone somewhere. But we thought it was a trick. You know, like he was just in the backyard, but he was waiting for somebody to be stupid.

COOPER (voice-over): But this time, it wasn't a trick. And Amanda Barry was able to break through the front door with her 6-year-old daughter, Joslyn (ph).

AMANDA BERRY, KIDNAPPED AND HELD HOSTAGE FOR YEARS: Hello, police. Help me, I'm Amanda Berry.

911 OPERATOR: Do you need police, fire or ambulance?

BERRY: I need police.

911 OPERATOR: OK. What's going on there?

BERRY: I've been kidnapped and missing for ten years. I'm here, I'm free now.

COOPER: The police arrived, but inside their boarded up bedroom, Michele and Gina were hiding from what they thought were burglars.

KNIGHT: I hear a noise but anybody can say police. Then I noticed some form of a big person. I was like OK, maybe this might be, and I see a badge. I see numbers and then I hear the police radio. I just said, I ran right into her arms, and I literally choked her.

COOPER (on camera): To the police woman's arms?

KNIGHT: Yes.

COOPER: Do you remember saying anything.

KNIGHT: I said please don't let me go. Please don't put me down.

COOPER: You actually were in her arms?

KNIGHT: Yes, I actually had my legs wrapped around her and my arms like this. She was like that girl literally choked me and then when --

COOPER: Did it seem real to you?

KNIGHT: At that time, no. It didn't. It seemed unreal.

COOPER (voice-over): At 32 years old, Michele walked out that front door for the very first and last time. Rushed to a hospital, she was treated for a long list of health issues due to the years of beatings and neglect. Although she was free, she was also all alone. Estranged from her family when she was released from the hospital, she took refuge as an assisted living facility outside Cleveland. Far away from the media, it gave her the space to gain strength to face her captor in court.

KNIGHT: I spent 11 years in hell. Now your hell is just beginning.

COOPER (on camera): When I saw you in court that day, at the sentencing, I was blown away. Were you determined to do that?

KNIGHT: Yes. It was important to me to express how I felt about what he did and how he did it, and let the judge know that he need to be punished for what he did.

COOPER (voice-over): The man who had held her for nearly 11 years was indicted on 977 counts and sentenced to life plus 1,000 years. Just a month into that sentence, however, he was found hanged in his jail cell.