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Memorial Controversy; Underwater Search Vehicle Damaged; MA370 Search May Be in Wrong Place; New Sterling Recording: "I'm Jealous"; Bill Maher Talks Free Speech, Privacy; Benham Brother's Show Cancelled for Homosexual Remarks; V.A. Secretary Eric Shinseki Under Fire

Aired May 10, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Randi Kaye, glad you are with us. We've got new developments tonight on two fronts at this hour, one of them is in New York City.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're grave robbers, and they're doing it for money.

KAYE (voice-over): She's talking about the decision made on where to permanently keep the remains of her son and many other people killed in the World Trade Center attacks on 9/11. Some families are furious saying it disrespects the dead.

And talk about frightening. A hot air balloon catches fire and goes down in Virginia. There are confirmed deaths and not everyone who was on board has been found yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Those who watched that hot air balloon burst into flames say they saw people fall or jump from a terrifying height. It happened last night. Part of a balloon festival near Richmond, Virginia, three people were riding in the gondola when everything went wrong and those on the ground were powerless to help.

The bodies of two of those people have been found and the third not yet. Virginia State Police say they will not stop looking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORINNE GELLER, VIRGINIA STATE POLICE: And this will continue through the night until we're able to locate the third occupant of the hot air balloon.

Some of you were asking the distance perspective between where the first body was found and the second one. It was roughly about 1,500 yards between the two and, again, it's a very heavily wooded, heavy undergrowth area where the remains were discovered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: CNN's Erin McPike is in River Glen, Virginia, right now, near the spot where the balloon went down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GELLER: We're now transitioning from a rescue operation to a recovery operation at this time.

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a search-and-rescue mission to a recovery, Virginia authorities confirming the terrifying hot air balloon accident was deadly for the three people on board.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): We have a visual of the airborne and hot air balloon. Appears to be still smoking. Still pretty high in the air.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (from captions): Got a report that the basket has come off so we're trying to find that right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (from captions): OK. Advise all units the airborne balloons aren't the issue. We need to locate the basket.

MCPIKE (voice-over): Authorities say they still haven't located that basket but they have retrieved the bodies of two of the three victims and are still looking for the third. Searchers have also retrieved debris and other items that would have been on the balloon.

GELELR: They have been a tremendous help. We've had probably anywhere from 30 to 40 calls from people that witnessed it from here at the festival on Friday to neighbors to people driving within the vicinity and it's been a tremendous help. We've been following up with those folks.

MCPIKE (voice-over): More than 100 people searched Saturday and Civil Air Patrol assisted, challenging because the basket and balloon separated after snagging a power line and catching fire, leading two of the passengers, witnesses say, to jump or fall.

JOANNA STRANGE, WITNESS: All of a sudden my boyfriend came running out, oh, my God, look at the sky. The balloon's on fire and all we seen was stuff falling from the sky, the basket, the balloon, everything was on fire.

MCPIKE: As you know there were three people on board, the pilot and two others. We've learned the two passengers worked for the University of Richmond women's basketball program -- Randi.

KAYE: Erin McPike, thank you very much.

Here in New York, a silent procession as the unidentified remains of more than 1,100 people killed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center were returned to the Trade Center site, their final resting place, the basement of the soon-to-open National September 11th Memorial Museum.

But the move isn't sitting so well with some families. They're upset because they were not consulted about the plan.

NORMAN SIEGEL, ATTORNEY: These 1,100 families did not receive any -- I repeat any -- recovery of their loved ones' remains.

ROSALEEN TALLON, BROTHER KILLED IN ATTACKS: There were recovery workers that gave their lives and their health to get our loved ones out from under a pile at Ground Zero and I don't think it was ever their intention that those remains that they gave their lives to retrieve, that they would be put in a basement museum?

JIM RICHES, SON KILLED IN ATTACKS: Let's see where they want it. Above grade in a memorial with an eternal light where it's open to the public free of charge or in a revenue-generating tourist attraction of the museum, where they'll charge $24 for all my son's friends to go down there.

TALLON: Would we ever have picked a basement that could be flooded?

Would we ever have picked a place where people had to pay in order to pay their respects, pay $24 to pay their respects?

Would we ever have picked that?

SALLY REGENHARD, SON KILLED IN ATTACKS: Osama bin Laden got better treatment in his death and in his burial than my son is getting, that's a disgrace.

ROSEMARY CAIN, SON KILLED IN ATTACKS: Don't put the remains in the basement. Give them respect, so 3,000 souls can rest in peace through eternity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: And Rosa Flores is following this story for us.

Such a difficult day for those families we saw it there.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's a really difficult time and I think we should make it clear that there are both sides to this story. There are families who are happy with what is going on and what happened today and, of course, there are families who are not happy, but here's what we know.

There are about 8,000 unidentified remains that are in the custody of the medical examiner. And that procession that you're taking a look at on your screen, that was the procession that moved these unidentified remains from the medical examiner's office to Ground Zero, so it's an underground repository.

We should make it clear that this repository is not made available to the general public. It is only for families to go there and mourn. And like I mentioned, there's about 8,000 unidentified remains at the moment.

Now, we did talk to families who were part of the advisory committee that made the decision to move these remains to this location years ago. They say that they are happy with what is going on today, that it's a very respectful way to honor the victims of 9/11. Here's what one of them had to say. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MONICA IKEN, HUSBAND KILLED IN ATTACKS: This is where they died. This is where they took their last step, their last breath. It's not about them, it's about our loved ones right now. And we're going to focus on Michael and all those who are not identified and that's what's most important today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: But, of course, that move did not happen without controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How dare you. How dare you. How dare you. How dare you state that the remains belong, belong in a museum, shame on you. Why are you --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Taking a look at some of the families who are not happy with the movement of those remains to this particular repository that is underground, so here are some of their demands. Here is one of the things they say that they are not happy with, that the final resting place for their loved ones that they did not have a chance to vote, that it is not an above-ground burial site and that it is not free for everyone. Here's what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REGENHARD: I can't think of anyone who would agree to have their child, the remains of their child, taken over by a municipal agency like the City of New York and put into a museum. It's barbaric. It's inhumane. It's really un-American.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now, we did receive a statement from the City of New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio, and it says in part, "It is important to note that the repository is a permanent medical examiner's facility that will continue to support the work of identifying remains with the ultimate goal of identifying every remain and returning them to their families who can decide how to best lay their loved ones to rest."

Now, we also obtained statements from both the police commissioner and also from the fire commissioner, and I should point out that the fire commissioner pointed out that 127 of their families are still waiting for their loved ones to be identified.

And, Randi, like I mentioned earlier, there's 8,000 remains, but when all of this started there were 20,000 unidentified remains and it has just taken time and, of course, this is the medical examiner working and that's why this is in the custody of the medical examiner to identify all of these remains.

KAYE: Yes, it's so sad to see, though, that the controversy over this continues.

FLORES: It really is, it is really sad.

KAYE: Rosa, appreciate it, thank you.

It's been more than two months since Flight 370 disappeared. Could the reason it has not been found be that investigators are looking in the wrong ocean, the wrong place?

Ahead, a new take on the data that could change everything.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back. Some breaking news to tell you about related to the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines jet, it involves the underwater search and the technology needed to comb the ocean floor as dangerous depths. David Gallo is joining me now. He's a CNN analyst and the director of special projects at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.

David, so, I guess you have some news to tell us about this vehicle and what it was doing.

DAVID GALLO, CNN ANALYST: Yes, Randi, it's our vehicle, the Nereus. It's a vehicle designed very innovative by the engineers here at Woods Hole to go to the very deepest ocean depths below 6,000 meters.

And the vehicle sometime in the night last night we got word today the vehicle imploded at about 9,000 meters depth, that's about a little over six miles depth, and it was in the middle -- toward the end of its first leg of a new initiative to map the deepest parts of the world's oceans.

So it's a real setback in that regard. But we'll learn a lot from it, but it hurts for the time being.

KAYE: So, what could this vehicle have meant for the search for 370?

GALLO: Well, you know, the teams in Australia now and the Malaysian teams and the Chinese vehicles are looking at what vehicles come next, depending on where they move that search zone. And when you peak to the north and the south of where they've been working, you see that the depths go rapidly from 5,000 meters all the way down below 6,000 meters.

In fact, I saw a few pockets that were down below 7,000 meters. That's approaching five miles. And there's not many vehicles -- in fact, this is the only vehicle I know of that can actually work at those depths.

So it kind of means that, you know, there's not anything on the planet that I know of offhand right now that can get down into those pockets. It doesn't mean that the search has to stop. There's plenty of seafloor to be mapped that's shallower than that, but if it's in one of those pockets that we have to look, we'll be in some serious trouble.

KAYE: Anything we can take away from this in terms of what the Bluefin-21 is doing in terms of mapping the ocean floor?

GALLO: Well, yes, Bluefin's still got a job to do. As I said, there's still plenty of shallow water terrain out there to be mapped and it will be doing its part but once we get to the deeper parts, we're not involved in that search yet, we'll see who they choose coming up in the next month or so I think.

But if they get down to the deeper areas it will take some pretty innovative thinking to figure out how we, one, map those places and look for Malaysia Air 370 and then how do you begin to work that site if it is, in fact, in one of these deeper spots?

KAYE: Was this a surprise to you? I would imagine you would expect it to have performed better.

GALLO: Well, Randi, no, no, it's performed great. It's been to the deepest parts of the ocean, the Challenger Deep in the Marianas. It's been there. It's been in the Cayman Trough in the Caribbean. It's been a great new vehicle and it does two things, it can work as an autonomous vehicle then you can clip -- with the Bluefin you have to wait to get the vehicle back to get the information.

Well, this one you can clip on a fiber packet and then you can get real-time information back at certain times, so it's been great.

But, you know, we're pushing the envelope here with that vehicle. And these things are to be expected. And we have to learn from this experience about what happens next. But every time you do extreme exploration like this, you have to be ready for something like this to happen.

KAYE: Well, David, stick with us here, because I want to talk to you as well about this new report suggesting that search efforts for Malaysia Airline Flight 370 are way, way, way off.

For weeks the heartbroken families, of course, have been questioning this, and they're wondering if maybe the Boeing crashed into the Indian Ocean or maybe it was somewhere else and since there's, of course, no physical evidence.

So, we wanted to talk to you about that.

We also want to bring in David Soucie here as well, who is a safety analyst and author of "Why Planes Crash."

So there's this new report for the two of you, I'm sure you both read it, this new report in "Atlantic" magazine, certainly adding to the concerns for families and for authorities looking for this flight, written by Ari Schulman (ph) that satellite experts believe the search may be focused on the wrong ocean even perhaps.

So -- and this is all related to the Inmarsat satellite data They're saying that it's incorrect. What is your take on it?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, I spoke with Ari and I also spoke with Michael Exner (ph), who both were part of -- one of the scientists in that report.

They wanted me to point out that they didn't really say that it's in the wrong ocean. They think that it's off and that it's off by a substantial amount, but they don't know how much.

What they are actually asking for is can we get some more data. It has to do with the relationship of the satellite movement and the airplane movement and they are trying to think that it doesn't seem to make sense with what's been published so far as to what the math says to them.

KAYE: What does this mean, though, David Soucie, for the pings?

You and I have talked quite a bit about the pings and that's why they're searching where they're searching.

SOUCIE: Yes. We really have. The handshakes we'll call these, because the pings to me are the box under the water stuff.

But the handshakes I think is what is the most difficult thing for them to reconcile with their math, because there's too many things going -- there's too many variables, the relationship, again, between the airplane and the satellite and the satellite itself and the ground station which is the AES, the air-to-earth satellite connection, and those things are compensated.

And that's the information that Malaysia didn't release, Inmarsat didn't release. So they kind of have a half-story here and the math that they've done so far showing where the aircraft was at specific times doesn't really line up a whole lot.

KAYE: David Gallo, are you still confident in the Inmarsat satellite data?

GALLO: Yes, you know, that's way out of my field of expertise, although I've had about five years of Algebra 1, it's still a bit out of my league.

But you know, I'm quoted in that article as saying that no one that I know in the acoustic world believes the pings came from the black boxes, but there's a second part to that statement I made that they admit, though, they've never seen the data.

So they are just responding to what's already out in the media, so my question is how much of the data have they really seen?

And I think at some point, you know, having been on the other side of that equation, having been involved in the search for Aircraft 447, being a part of the inner circle, it's very tricky and probably troublesome to start criticizing the team that's doing the work. So, you know, we have to decide, do we trust them or not? And personally I've got to say I trust them because if we don't, we're back to square one.

And I don't know, when you try to reason with why would you not trust them, you can go off in all different kinds of directions but I think the simplest thing to do -- these are good people, they are trying to do their best -- is to trust them and see what unfolds in the future.

KAYE: And back to you David Soucie, do you still believe that 370 traveled along this southern arc at all?

SOUCIE: You know, I have no data to tell me one way or the other because I've lost faith in that.

One of the reasons that we were so confident in the Inmarsat data was we had the pings underwater to corroborate that and to say we have this convergence of data.

Now that the Inmarsat data is in question and recently I found out some information that I've been asking for about what could have made this 33.3 megahertz frequency and this -- John Fiorentino (ph) had made me aware of some information.

And I looked at that and he was correct; there are some things that could have produced that sound other than the aircraft and I'd held a strong line on that until somebody showed me proof.

But now I have got proof. These pingers are manufactured; I know who the manufacturer is, so there are pingers that would be used on fishing nets, albeit they were illegal fishing nets, but that have been used out there. So I'm less confident on both, which makes me very less confident then that the aircraft is in that spot.

KAYE: I don't like to hear you less confident or anybody else.

David Gallo, David Soucie, thank you both very much. Appreciate it.

SOUCIE: Thank you.

KAYE: Coming up at 7:00 pm Eastern time we'll talk with a journalist who wrote the controversial "Atlantic" article. Do not miss our special on the hunt for Malaysia Flight 370, our experts weigh in.

Are searchers looking in the right place? Will turning over the information o the families help the hunt? That's all coming up in just 90 minutes.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

KAYE (voice-over): The Donald Sterling controversy seems far from over and now new audio recordings are coming out, supposedly explaining why he made racist comments in the first place. Hear Donald Sterling in his own words again. Next.

(MUSIC PLAYING) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: The Donald Sterling drama shows no signs of fading. New audio recordings released by RadarOnline appear to reveal Sterling trying to explain why he made those racist comments that could cost him ownership of the NBA's L.A. Clippers.

The voice on the new recording says jealously sparked his original remarks and that he wanted to sleep with V. Stiviano, the woman who recorded that original conversation that got Sterling in so much hot water.

For the record CNN has been unable to confirm with Sterling's representatives that the voice is him. At one point, though, on the recording, he complains that his conversations continue to be recorded.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DONALD STERLING, OWNER, L.A. CLIPPERS (from captions) Who thinks anybody's going to tape something? What the hell? I'm talking to a girl. The girl's black. I like her. I'm jealous that she's with other black guys. I want her.

So what the hell can I in private tell her, you know, I don't want you to be with anybody? I mean, do I have -- can I -- am I a person? Do I have any freedom of speech?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KAYE: That sound once again from RadarOnline.

So let's talk more about Donald Sterling with CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

All right, guys, so this new recording that RadarOnline is Sterling features him saying that he was jealous that V. Stiviano was with black men. He also denies that he's a racist, you hear it there.

So Marc, let me start with you. Do these latest remarks help his case in any way or does it make things worse for this guy?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it'll probably help him in the court of public opinion, there are people who are always looking to give people an out, to throw him a kind of life raft in the conversation about racism.

And so I think there will be people who will be swayed by this. Also his free speech argument is one that people find compelling. People say, hey, he said this in the privacy of his own home, he should be allowed to do this.

I think, though, that ultimately it won't matter. The truth is Donald Sterling has a long history of saying and more importantly doing things that reflect racism. That's the bigger takeaway here. And yes, I'm sure the leaks that came out may help him a little bit but I suspect he put those out and people won't find them all that persuasive.

KAYE: Ben, the new recording appears to have been made after the scandal first broke, putting aside what he said. I guess the question is why does this guy keep getting himself recorded? I mean isn't he smarter than that right now?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Here's my thing. Is it really leaked if you actually sit down and your strategy is to tell people that you like black people so you put out your own recording?

Because I got a pretty good, you know, feeling about this, that Donald Sterling probably said here's my defense. Let's record me saying that I like black people and that I'm jealous of black guy that she likes so I didn't want her to take pictures with black people so then all the black people will think I like them again.

I mean, only Donald Sterling could come up with a defense that is this ridiculous in the first place. And I think he did it on purpose. He probably thought maybe this will help and then the whole idea of him saying, you know, I'm a person, don't I have the right of free speech?

Yes, you even have the right to record yourself and leak it to radar or whoever decided to do it for you to help you out, but it doesn't mean that you're not a racist. You can say what you want to say but it does have an impact on your business life and I think the NBA is showing that right now.

KAYE: He's basically saying, you know, that he was just trying to get lucky with V. Stiviano and playing the victim here, isn't he, Marc?

FERGUSON: Yes, I don't know if "I was just trying to have sex" is going to be a great defense right now.

HILL: Well, there are a lot of men in this country who would find that argument reasonable. I think he probably was jealous. I think ultimately that tape was about him being jealous of her taking pictures with other people.

But the fact that he says those things on the most recent tape doesn't mean that he's not racist.

Yes, I'm sure he does want to date black women. I'm sure he doesn't mind sleeping with black women. He doesn't mind being the owner of a black basketball team, but those things don't necessarily undermine the claim of racism, in fact, in some ways they support them, because he has a very particular idea of the role that black people should play in the world. And that's evidenced by what he said. It's also evidenced by what he's done. It's evidenced by the cases that have been waged against him in courts of law.

KAYE: Listen, Bill Maher --

FERGUSON: I think it's simpler than that.

KAYE: Hold on, Ben, I want you guys to hear --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: -- I want you guys to hear this and then we'll pick it up with you. Bill Maher actually spoke about this whole mess last night. So listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL MAHER, HBO HOST: There's a reason houses have doors on them and windows have shades and if I want to sit in the privacy of my living room and say I think "The Little Mermaid" is hot and I want to (INAUDIBLE) her or I don't like watching two men kiss or I think tattoos look terrible on black people, I should be able to, even if you think that makes me a (INAUDIBLE).

Now, do I really believe those things?

I'm not telling you because you're not in my living room!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Oh, you got to love that.

All right, guys, listen, think about it. Process all of that and we're going to talk to you about it and get your take on it right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: And let's continue our conversation now with CNN commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

All right, guys, before the break, we played that great sound from Bill Maher. I do want to play it again because it's that good. And then we'll talk about it. So listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN & HOST, REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER: There's a reason houses have doors on them and windows have shades. And if I want to sit in the privacy of my living room and say I think the Little Mermaid is hot and I want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) her --

(LAUGHTER)

-- or I don't like watching two men kiss or I think tattoos look terrible on black people, I should be able to, even if you think that makes me a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(LAUGHTER)

Now, do I really believe those things? I'm not telling you because you're not in my living room!

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: All right, lots to talk about there.

Ben, your reaction first.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, it's funny. But at the same time when you play with fire, you're probably going to get burned. And Donald Sterling to put it very simply I think he likes beautiful women. He doesn't care what race they are as long as they like him back. But if you want to rent one of his apartments and he's not in the room with you and you're attractive, you're probably not going to be able to rent one if you have the wrong colored skin, so you really can't have it two ways saying in my business life I don't like minorities but in my sex life if you're attractive enough and you give me attention, I'll be more than happy to claim to people that I like you and I'm jealous, I just don't think it's going to be good enough to save him from being able to get kicked out of this team and out of the league.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Marc, what do you think?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I was going to say, Bill Maher's making a slightly different argument, though, about free speech and saying, look, I have a right to say objectionable things in the privacy of my own home and if we really believe in free speech the public sphere shouldn't come out and Strip away title and ownership, et cetera. The problem with the argument he doesn't own a private bakery. He owns a franchise within the NBA and he signed a constitution that says if things are bad for business he can lose his franchise and the truth here is that this isn't a free speech argument. He has every right to say it but the market has a right to respond and in this case the market has responded. Players were going to sit out, fans were going to stop coming, sponsors already pulled out. His private beliefs by leaking to the public for whatever reason and through whatever mechanism, his private beliefs have caused the business to go down. And so the league has a right to say, hey, we have to protect our partners' and shareholders' interest respectively. That's why he's losing this and Bill Maher's argument doesn't hold up.

KAYE: Let's listen to Bill Maher talking about free speech. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAHER: If the Donald Sterling mess proved anything, it's that there's a force out there just as powerful as Big Brother, big girlfriend. Last week, when President Obama was asked about the Sterling episode, he said, when ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, just let them talk. But Sterling didn't advertise. He was bugged. And while he may not be worth defending, the Fourth Amendment is. That's the one that says we have the right to be secure in our person, in our homes, in our property. Who wants to live in a world where the only privacy you have is inside your head? That's what life in East Germany was like. That's why we fought the Cold War, remember?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: Ben, your take on that?

FERGUSON: You know, I think some people, though, have a little bit of confusion here. Sterling didn't get in trouble with the law. We didn't arrest him. He's not going to jail because of what he said. He's going to lose part of a team, a franchise, that has a code of conduct. It's the same way that if you work for somebody and you tweet something out heinous, note the police don't come to your door and arrest you because you tweeted something stupid. But your employer may say that we're going to fire you because that looks bad on us. There is a total difference between freedom of speech and the idea that you can say whatever you want to while representing a league, which includes the NBA or any other employer out there, and if you don't like those rules, then don't become a part of the NBA.

KAYE: But, Marc, isn't it also -- it's almost he's saying it's OK to say the racist things because he thought it was private, if it is indeed on him on the tape?

LAMONT HILL: I don't want to suggest that Bill Maher thinks those particular thoughts are OK from a moral or ethical perspective, but I think he's saying if I have thoughts there ought to be a space I can utter them without fear of public recrimination, especially if I don't put them in public. Like he said, Donald Sterling was bugged. That's absolutely true. It might be unfair, but the market responded, fans responded and shareholders -- and by shareholders, other owners responded. Maybe two unfair things are happen, a racist owns an NBA team and a racist was bugged. When I put those two things up against each other, I would rather get rid of this guy.

FERGUSON: Remember, Bill Maher has an ax to grind when it comes to saying what you want to when you want to, because he used to have a TV show and he said something politically incorrect after 9/11 and it cost him his job. And now he's at his new show, which is on HBO, but I'm sure he doesn't like this.

KAYE: Now you're analyzing Donald Sterling and Bill Maher. All right.

FERGUSON: Yeah.

KAYE: We'll move on to another topic. Listen, stick around because we want to talk to you about this other story that we've also been focusing on this week.

Two brothers about to star in their own show but they were fired before the show ever aired all because of their personal beliefs. Has political correctness gotten in the way of making a living? We'll talk about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BENHAM, REALITY STAR: We're saddened by what happened. We're disappointed.

JASON BENHAM, REALITY STAR: But God is bigger than both of us.

DAVID BENHAM: It will be OK.

JASON BENHAM: There are people all over the world losing their lives for their faith. We've said if we lost a television show because of our faith, then so be it, but you need to know the inverse of that is true that it was our faith that built our companies. It was our faith in God that attracted HGTV to us in the first place.

DAVID BENHAM: Because of what our company had done.

JASON BENHAM: That's exactly right. And so we're just thankful to be here and be alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: That's the Benham brothers, twins, David and Jason, talking about the cancellation of their new show on HGTV. The network canceled the program after reports surfaced that the brothers had made critical remarks about homosexuality. HGTV's decision has caused a huge controversy. You can see my full interview with the brothers next hour.

But right now, let's bring back CNN commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

All right, guys, before the Benhams, of course, we saw Donald Sterling's remarks get him in trouble. We talked about that. We saw the star of "Duck Dynasty" get in trouble. One of the creators of the Firefox web browser lost his job over his views as well.

So in terms of big picture here -- Marc, to you first -- are we taking this too far? I mean, penalizing speech and opinion?

LAMONT HILL: No. I mean, I, too, worry about a world where you can't say things that are controversial or unpopular or that rend you in the minority. This may surprise you but I have occasionally said things that people don't agree with. And I'm sure Ben has once or twice, too.

(LAUGHTER)

I think the difference here, though, they are saying something that a large chunk of their HGTV's buying public finds objectionable. This to me is much more of a market-based decision than anything else. The fans aren't going to approve of this. The fans aren't going to support this. And they have the right to say they don't want to stand next to somebody that thinks like this.

KAYE: So, Ben, why do you think they made this decision?

FERGUSON: I totally disagree. I think it's the gay, lesbian, transgendered and activist community is on a mission to seek and destroy anyone that speaks out in favor of traditional marriage. If you listen to what these brothers actually said, they were saying that they were -- they were actually criticizing Christians who have become passive and don't understand what the Bible believes in. They did not attack the LGBT community.

However, I will applaud them, the LGBT community, because what they have done is they have turned -- right now, in this country, if you say anything that they can take and say that you hate gays or lesbians, and they will use that to their advantage to try to destroy your career. And HGTV has given into it yet again and I think it's sad and I think it's sick that these people in this country have this much power right now over people that have belief in a faith, in the Bible. They shouldn't apologize for it and you shouldn't lose your job on over it either.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Marc, I know you want to respond about that.

FERGUSON: We spent the last 15 minutes talking about Donald Sterling and saying people have the right to believe what they want but there's consequence to having particular beliefs. Donald Sterling said what he believed on tape. He said he didn't want his girlfriend to hang with black people.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: There's a difference -- there's a difference between saying you don't like black people and saying that you believe in traditional marriage. They did not attack gays or lesbians.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: They're not attacking the lifestyle, but they did attack the gay agenda as they called it for getting involved --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Sure. But should I lose --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But, again, these guys are Christians.

LAMONT HILL: Let me finish this point. First of all, Donald Sterling didn't say he didn't like black people. He didn't want them around his girlfriend. We don't approve what Donald Sterling said and there was a market-based response to it. There are people that don't approve of what these guys say and so there's a market-based response to it. It's not whether or not they hate gay people or not. I know they say things that a lot of people find objectionable. And HGTV has a right to say we don't want to stand next to and be represented by people who have beliefs like that.

FERGUSON: I understand that, But, Marc, Marc, they criticized Christians for being passive. They also listed a lot of other things that Christians have become passive about. This was one category of it. And yet, the gay, lesbian, strand gendered, bisexual community went to seek and destroy their lives when their show was about actually helping people that were worthy and needed a home, and they helped them find that home and create it into a forever home. How can they not -- why would you want to attack those guys that do that, that do something to help people that are a little bit underprivileged in a TV show because they're Christians? This is the attack of religion. That's my problem.

LAMONT HILL: Lots of bigots give money, ask the L.A. NAACP. They took chunks from Donald Sterling.

FERGUSON: If you believe in the Bible it doesn't make you a bigot.

LAMONT HILL: I'm saying calling him a bigot. I'm saying philanthropy does mean they're not bigots. They have a belief system that is different from what the company wants to be represented by and that's their right. If I worked for a far right wing news outlet, say, for example -- pretend there is one -- and they knew I believed in left wing ideals, they would say Marc doesn't have our ideals and we don't want to stand next to someone who believes this. That would be totally OK.

FERGUSON: I think the difference is this is an issue of people that believe in the Bible. They didn't come out with this.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: They said what the Bible says and they lost their job because they believe in the Bible. That is being persecuted.

LAMONT HILL: That's ridiculous. That is a ridiculous argument. It's not because they believe in the Bible. There are lots of Christians --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Sure it is.

LAMONT HILL: No, no, no. There are lots of Christians in this country who do not believe -- the entire denominations like the UCC that does not believe that God does want you to be anti-gay. So lets not suggest that the Bible --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: They are not anti-gay?

LAMONT HILL: They are one in the same. You can be Christians and have different beliefs.

(CROSSTALK) FERGUSON: They are not anti-gay.

KAYE: OK. I think --

LAMONT HILL: No, hold on. They were let go because they had a very particular belief that the company did not want to represent and that's OK. If I'm a vegetarian and I don't -- and I work for the Food Channel doing a show about meat and they decide, do you know what, we don't want a vegetarian standing next to our T-bone steak special, that makes sense. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person or a bigot. It means they don't want me to represent them.

KAYE: I think you guys have made your points. I had so many more questions, but obviously we'll not get to those.

(LAUGHTER)

LAMONT HILL: Sorry.

KAYE: No, that was a healthy discussion right there. That's what we'll call that.

But we're still not done with you, believe it or not. Our conversation will continue right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Back with our commentators, Ben and Marc.

We want to talk about the headlines in D.C. Secretary of Veterans Affairs Eric Shinseki will testify before a Senate committee next Friday. He is under fire about the mounting backlog of health care cases of veterans dying while on a secret waiting list at a Phoenix V.A. hospital.

Marc, first to you.

If veterans died on secret waiting list, should Shinseki resign?

MARK LAMONT HILL: He absolutely should resign and no hesitation about it. It's shameful for anyone to die while waiting for health care but particularly if it's avoidable and if there's a waiting list. There's no excuse for this. The fact it happens with veterans is even more disturbing.

KAYE: Ben, Shinseki is no stranger to controversy. He got into a dispute with then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld when he was serving as the Army chief of staff. Does the V.A., do you think, need to start over?

FERGUSON: I think there needs to be a complete overhaul. I talked to one woman whose husband actually was put on this list in Arizona. She called in and talked about it on her show and he waited for six months as his problem continued to grow and they had no idea how bad it was, and he was on this list. When you affect someone's life like that and you end up having to bury somebody because of it, you realize how absurd this really is. And our veterans, we should champion them. They give a lot of their life to serve and protect this country and quite possibly die to serve this country and the least treat we can do is treat them with respect at the V.A. So I think there needs to be a complete overhaul of the system. I think it's broken. I think there's a good chance we are going to find other things like this have happened all over the country. And the guy at the top was in charge. This is your job and if you didn't know this list is happening and you claim ignorance, that is not good enough when people die.

KAYE: Marc, this nationwide audit of all clinics that the V.A. says they are going to do, is that enough?

LAMONT HILL: It's not enough but it's a heck of a start. There have been complaints about V.A. locations locally for many years in terms of the cleanliness of the facilities and getting access to meds, and getting access to proper patient care, doctors, et cetera. I think a local audit is so important and necessary. This should be a bipartisan commitment to making sure the veterans are protected.

KAYE: Marc Lamont Hill, Bill Ferguson, thank you. Appreciate it.

LAMONT HILL: Pleasure.

FERGUSON: Thanks.

KAYE: It definitely was one of the biggest stories of the week. Former White House intern, Monica Lewinsky, breaking her silence in a "Vanity Fair" article, telling the world how she has tried to survive the scandal after an affair with President Clinton. Just ahead, we'll talk to a woman who has successfully survived and thrived after a political sex scandal, Donna Rice Hughes. Her advice for Monica Lewinski just minutes away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: I love the crispy feeling of the air, the sound of my skate punching on the ice. Skating relieves me from everything. I just want to fly, I don't want to stop.

SHARON COHEN, CNN HERO: I heard there were some girls who wanted to figure skate in Harlem. I knew skating wasn't a diverse sport. There wasn't access for this community. I began teaching them. It was really inspiring for me.

Now, we serve over 300 girls a year.

(SHOUTING)

COHEN: You did it.

The best part about skating, gives you qualities that you can use the rest of your life, discipline, perseverance.

Step, cross. Step, cross. Excellent, girls. They fall down, they get back up and they learn they can do that on anything. It's a building block.

Skating's the hook, but education comes first.

Before they even get on the ice, they have to get their homework done. Minimum of three afternoons a week.

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: Algebra was not my best subject. And I feel, hey, you have to get back up. Now I'm doing way better in school. Like, yeah.

ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, Harlem Ice.

COHEN: We want girls to believe and know they can be anything they put their hearts and minds to.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: It's not all about skating. Miss Sharon is teaching us to be the best we can be in life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hello, everyone. I'm Randi Kaye.

It definitely was one of the biggest stories of the week. Monica Lewinsky, a former White House intern, telling her story to "Vanity Fair." Lewinski talked about the shame and how she has tried to survive the scandal stemming from her affair with President Bill Clinton. In a few minutes, we will talk to Donna Rice Hughes. Remember her? She is the woman whose relationship with then-married Senator Gary Hart derailed his presidential campaign. We'll talk to her about how she successfully recovered from that scandal and what advice she might have for Monica Lewinski.